"Weak minded people get addicted to drugs" - master_bates

[Techman]

Dee, if you read my original post where I mentioned the term copout, I did so in relation to those who claim that their addiction is a disease, not in relation to anyone in a 12 step program.

If a 12 step program works for someone, all power to them and I wish them luck. But it does not change my opinion that addiction is not a disease. In fact, if a 12 step program does meet with success it reinforces my view that drug addiction is not in fact a disease.

To YVO: thanks for the information on the background history of 12 step programs. It is what I originally believed in that case and my original statement about it being religious based was correct.


Techman

 

[YouVantOption]

Most 12 step groups are ultimately based on some religious belief and those who go through them are only trading one dependancy on drugs for another one based on religion.

As for addiction being a disease, I think that is a copout and a way for those who are addicted to absolve themselves of responsibility.
While there may indeed be genetic factors as to why some are more susceptible than others to addiction, I would hardly call it a disease.

Hold on now. Just because it isn't in the strictest medical definition sense a disease, but more rightly, a condition, probably best said a mental/psychological condition that doesn't make it any less serious, dire, or requiring treatment.

No-one said anything about absolving addicts of their responsibilities by attributing the origins of their state to disease, especially not 12 Step programs. Disease, condition, whatever. Addicts are held responsible constantly under the law; I read statistics some years ago noting that 50% (quite possibly many more) of those in prison in Canada had drugs (including alcohol) in some way related to their crime.

 

[Techman]

YVO, never once did I imply that addiction was not a serious matter. Just the opposite in fact, I believe that it is a very serious issue which is why I would be against legalizing any of the harder drugs.

What I take issue with are those who claim that it it a disease and some of those who use that as a way to say..." I have a disease, it wasn't my fault that I became addicted and I am not responsible" and I have heard that exact argument used by people in the past. Both from addicts and from their friends/family.

 

[YouVantOption]

What I take issue with are those who claim that it it a disease and some of those who use that as a way to say..." I have a disease, it wasn't my fault that I became addicted and I am not responsible" and I have heard that exact argument used by people in the past. Both from addicts and from their friends/family.

I've never heard anyone use addiction as an excuse, but certainly as an explanation for their actions (as an argument for dependency treatment as part of a sentence, for example). Clearly, your experience has differed.

 

[Dee]

Well let's split some more hairs, let's debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....

No matter what, addiction is a VERY serious problem... for the addicted and the rest of society... if you haven't lived with it... lucky you... and for some, ignorant you.... what decent person gives a flying fuck as to it's exact description except for the purposes of treatment.

First of all it's ludicrous to suggest that it's the weak who become addicted.... but let's, for the purpose of argument, accept that BS... according to Techman they are weak and by implication not deserving of help... sit with an addicted person who can't get a fix or wants to change sometime... wait I know... you are all knowledgeable and your puritan heart of stone won't be moved...

All the know it all people on this board... do you really think the shivering, "I'll do anything for my next fix" girls on the street somehow deserve what they get; that they have, with an open mind, chosen this life.

OK Eastender time to bring your holier then you deus ex machina comments here ... accuse me of some evilness... don't forget to mention that you used to be a bouncer and that you know a lot of former addicts that have their own businesses. The view of the boards' own Judas is more then welcome.

 

[naughtylady]

By this definition, lack of money, being homeless, being out of work or being on welfare could all qualify as 'diseases'. Addiction in most cases is the result of certain behaviour that is undertaken by the specific person and only seems to be termed a disease after extreme abuse of a substance. If a cocaine addict had never tried cocaine, he would never have gotten the 'disease'. The same thing applies to an alcoholic or any other drug abuser. Some people are addicted to porn, television, the Internet and in some cases MERB. Are all these people suffering from a disease as well? While certain drugs do induce a chemical dependancy and extreme abuse can lead to medical problems, I feel that addiction is more of a condition than a disease.

As far as 12 step programs are concerned, you are most likely correct when you speak of spirituality as opposed to my term of religion. Personally I have no particular spiritual beliefs of my own and do not believe in any 'higher power' or god so to speak. So a 12 step program would be useless to someone such as myself.

None of these derange the vital functions of. In an addict, Drugs affect the heart, lungs, kidneys, teeth and bones, etc. all depending on to what one is addicted.

Also well addiction is a disease that affects the behaviours of a person. Actually it is primarily in the behaviours.

An addict who doesn't use drugs will still display obsessive and compulsive behaviour that he will find next to impossible to control.

As far as you feeling that addiction is more of a condition than a disease again, go see DSM-IV.

As for your lack of belief in a "higher power", you do not believe in any power greater than yourself? Not the power of many as opposed to one? (together we can). Not the power of love, nature, the universe? You believe you are the greatest power in this universe? WOW!

Actually many people who go to 12 step meetings start going with no belief in any sort of god. That is why it is written "We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves ..." They did not believe at first.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

Implies? No. 12 Step 'recovery' is without a doubt religiously based (that is a historical and factual truth), at the very least monotheistic, if not plain old Protestantism.

We should also not fail to mention that the success rate in these programs is around 10%

Penn & Teller did a terrific overview of 12 Step recovery programs about a year ago. I'd suggest you watch it Ronnie.

Bottom line for me:

12 Step is great. I've seen it work. Sometimes. It doesn't work for everybody.

12 Step is religiously based. So what? Even religion is better than lying in a pool of your own vomit for warmth, or stealing your kid's lunch money for a rock of crack.

12 Step is free and readily available. Alternatives are rare, and mostly cost money.

If you are addicted to something, despite the shortcomings, I'd suggest getting yourself to a 12 Step meeting rather than continuing with the addiction, any day. It helps stop addiction, but ultimately, the cure is within. If the addict wants to stop, they stop.

Which, by the way, doesn't work when you have a disease. ;-)

Which religion? There is no concepts of after life. No description of god. monotheistic? Nothing there suggests a single god. In fact I have a friend with 15+ years clean who attends AA meetings who happens to be pagan How much further from a single deity can you get?

I have a copy of the big book of AA at home(no I am not an alcoholic, I went to one AA meeting in my life (with a friend who asked me to go with her). I found the book to be spiritual not religious.

the cure is within. If the addict wants to stop, they stop.

Which, by the way, doesn't work when you have a disease.

So when the human BODY cures itself of a viral infection on its own, that infection cannot be considered a disease. C'mon, people get over the flu on their own every day even though some are hospitalized and others will die from the flu.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

Well let's split some more hairs, let's debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....

No matter what, addiction is a VERY serious problem... for the addicted and the rest of society... if you haven't lived with it... lucky you... and for some, ignorant you.... what decent person gives a flying fuck as to it's exact description except for the purposes of treatment.

First of all it's ludicrous to suggest that it's the weak who become addicted.... but let's, for the purpose of argument, accept that BS... according to Techman they are weak and by implication not deserving of help... sit with an addicted person who can't get a fix or wants to change sometime... wait I know... you are all knowledgeable and your puritan heart of stone won't be moved...

All the know it all people on this board... do you really think the shivering, "I'll do anything for my next fix" girls on the street somehow deserve what they get; that they have, with an open mind, chosen this life.

OK Eastender time to bring your holier then you deus ex machina comments here ... accuse me of some evilness... don't forget to mention that you used to be a bouncer and that you know a lot of former addicts that have their own businesses. The view of the boards' own Judas is more then welcome.

Bravo Dee!!!!

Now we have a new thing to debate, just between the two of us:

Is this a case of great minds thinking alike or one of fools seldom differing?

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[Techman]

...First of all it's ludicrous to suggest that it's the weak who become addicted.... but let's, for the purpose of argument, accept that BS... according to Techman they are weak and by implication not deserving of help... sit with an addicted person who can't get a fix or wants to change sometime... wait I know... you are all knowledgeable and your puritan heart of stone won't be moved...

Once again, Dee, you try to put words in my mouth so to speak. Nowhere have I said that it is the weak who get addicted or that anyone does not deserve treatment. Not ONCE! In fact every one of my posts are against that fact. I have taken issue with addiction being called a disease. That's all.

Everyone who is addicted to any substance or behaviour has the right to treatment. Everyone. And for your information, yes I have seen addiction first hand. I have lost people I loved to addiction so do not ever imply that I do not know what it is like. This is not a subject that I take lightly.

Ronnie, when I speak of a 'higher power' you know very well what I am speaking of. I do not believe in having faith in any mystical or mythical supreme being. Have faith in yourself, your family, your friends, a doctor, someone tangible...not some theoretical god or spriritual power. Go watch Religulous and you'll see how I feel.

Techman

 

[hormone]

Those are not medical dictionaries, manuals, or reference books. Those are dictionaries.

Addiction is not a disease and is not recognized as one by the medical community.

YVA: disorder and disease... the use of one versus the other is subject to controversy within the medical community. Many will start using disease when function is compromised, whereas disorder when function is abnormal, but not necessarily compromised. Others will talk disease when it is biological, disorder when it is not. In the nebullous world of psychiatry, things are even less clear, as with each passing year, they realize that many disorders have a biological basis... hence becoming a disease.

The most important point is to make the difference between addiction and various types of dependance--physical and psychological. This is what confuses the picture between a toxicologist and a psychiatrist-- even more so for the normal crowd. The classical definition of addiction (sometimes called dependance...) has 3 elements: tolerance, withdrawl, compulsion.

 

[naughtylady]

Once again, Dee, you try to put words in my mouth so to speak. Nowhere have I said that it is the weak who get addicted or that anyone does not deserve treatment. Not ONCE! In fact every one of my posts are against that fact. I have taken issue with addiction being called a disease. That's all.

Everyone who is addicted to any substance or behaviour has the right to treatment. Everyone. And for your information, yes I have seen addiction first hand. I have lost people I loved to addiction so do not ever imply that I do not know what it is like. This is not a subject that I take lightly.

Ronnie, when I speak of a 'higher power' you know very well what I am speaking of. I do not believe in having faith in any mystical or mythical supreme being. Have faith in yourself, your family, your friends, a doctor, someone tangible...not some theoretical god or spriritual power. Go watch Religulous and you'll see how I feel.

Techman

I did not see DEE direct his message directly at you... a little sensitive are we?


From what I have been reading about 12 step programs it seems to me that all of those would work as a higher power for the ourposes of the program... No wear does it say that ones higher power has to be intangible. All it says is a higher power of your understanding.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

By the way, i'd say an addiction is more of an illness than a 'disease'. But in many cases, the illness in question is both a mental & physical one.

I could accept that interpretation as an illness vs disease.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[Techman]

I did not see DEE direct his message directly at you... a little sensitive are we?...

Really? When you read this: "according to Techman they are weak and by implication not deserving of help", who else do you think it might be directed at?

And yes I am damn sensitive about the matter of addiction because I have lost people I loved to it. Any one who states that I feel that anyone is not deserving of help is not going to get a very nice response from me.

As far as 12 step programs are concerned, I guess someone would actually have to go through one to know the truth about them. If they help someone beat their addiction to whatever substance or behaviour then the end justifies the means I guess. That's my last word on that subject.

 

[YouVantOption]

An addict who doesn't use drugs will still display obsessive and compulsive behaviour that he will find next to impossible to control.

According to 12 steppers, yes. In reality ...

As far as you feeling that addiction is more of a condition than a disease again, go see DSM-IV.

I have a better idea. Quote to us the specific spot where even psychologists (the low end of the totem, who do not have a medical degree) call addiction a disease, not a condition.

An addict who doesn't use drugs will still display obsessive and compulsive behaviour that he will find next to impossible to control.

According to 12 steppers, yes. In reality ... not so much.

As for your lack of belief in a "higher power", you do not believe in any power greater than yourself? Not the power of many as opposed to one? (together we can). Not the power of love, nature, the universe? You believe you are the greatest power in this universe? WOW!

You have conducted yourself perfectly with this logical fallacy. He didn't say anything about being the most powerful force. The 12 steppers play a silly slippery slope game with God & higher power. They say it isn't about god, but this 'power greater than oneself is referred to as 'God' at every meeting held and in every book the 12 steppers write. And in their steps.

Actually many people who go to 12 step meetings start going with no belief in any sort of god. That is why it is written "We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves ..." They did not believe at first.

Right, and like any cult, they indoctrinate or expel non-believers.

 

[chloe]

Addiction is a chronic, relapsing brain disease that is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences. It is considered a brain disease because drugs change the brain's structure and manner in which it functions. These brain changes can be long lasting, and can lead to the harmful behaviors seen in people who abuse drugs. The disease of addiction affects both brain and behavior, and scientists have identified many of the biological and environmental factors that contribute to the development and progression of the disease.

 

[YouVantOption]

I think people here are suffering from V62.3

namely an academic problem.

DSM-IV is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition, Text Revision..

You can repeat the 12 step blather all you want folks, but addiction is not a disease.

Even ICD 10 refers to behavioral problems as a disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10

 

[chloe]

Quote: Addiction is a disease that ruins a capable and intelligent human being. This disease needs treatment like all the other diseases. The catch in this situation is that the patient is unaware of his problem and may even deny it. Therefore it is crucial to handle the patient with understanding and love. With the right treatment addiction to drugs and alcohol can be cured and the persons' life put back in order.


http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Drug-Addiction-And-Alcohol-Addiction-A-Disease?&id=1144749

 

[YouVantOption]

Quote: Addiction is a disease that ruins a capable and intelligent human being. This disease needs treatment like all the other diseases. The catch in this situation is that the patient is unaware of his problem and may even deny it. Therefore it is crucial to handle the patient with understanding and love. With the right treatment addiction to drugs and alcohol can be cured and the persons' life put back in order.


http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Drug-Addiction-And-Alcohol-Addiction-A-Disease?&id=1144749

ezine articles are self-published - anybody can say anything they want.

For example, Bill Urell, who is not a doctor, nor even a PhD. He is a salesman for his treatment centers.

Bill Urell MA.CAAP-II, is an addictions therapist at a leading residential treatment center. He teaches healthy life styles, life skills, self-help and self improvement for holistic recovery.Visit our growing community at Addiction Recovery Basics.

 

[naughtylady]

ezine articles are self-published - anybody can say anything they want.

For example, Bill Urell, who is not a doctor, nor even a PhD. He is a salesman for his treatment centers.

Are you saying only someone with a PHD knows what they are talking about?

A therapist who specializes in treatment for addiction does not know about addiction. I cannot speak for other places but I do know that in Quebec there are specific government recognized courses to become a "therapeut en toxicomanie".

Are you implying that someone who studied these courses and worked in the domain for years is less qualified to talk about addiction than your GP? (Who may in fact refer you to such a person for treatment)

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[YouVantOption]

Are you saying only someone with a PHD knows what they are talking about?

A therapist who specializes in treatment for addiction does not know about addiction. I cannot speak for other places but I do know that in Quebec there are specific government recognized courses to become a "therapeut en toxicomanie".

Are you implying that someone who studied these courses and worked in the domain for years is less qualified to talk about addiction than your GP? (Who may in fact refer you to such a person for treatment)

I am saying the MDs get to make the decisions about classifying things, like whether something is a disease or a condition. You know, like addiction NOT BEING A DISEASE, no matter what the 12 steppers say, and how often.