Client security

[Rebaynia]

It wasn't rhetorical. You also don't need to re-interpret my question. Regardless of the fact that the reasons for the anonymity might be different both clients and SPs have a need for anonymity, and anonymity is today's society takes many of the same forms for everyone.


I'm not sure why you'd say I won't admit that safety is an issue. I keep saying it over and over again. I said twice in my last post that SPs are entitled to take precautions and should do so for their safety. I feel like people are willfully choosing to disregard everything I am saying affirming that SPs have a right to protect themselves. I get that. I'm repeating it again here. I also understand what you're saying about knowing clients and why not knowing about them poses a danger to you. It's a slippery slope from the point of view that it leaves one party of the other disadvantaged. Women are safer if the know everything. Men are safer if they don't. The priority here may lie in the perspective. I absolutely understand why you would prioritize that and also understand that your priority is to protect yourself. My priority is to protect myself. I completely get that these are opposing priorities and that they may be difficult to reconcile. It's the same (in a non dangerous way) with deposits. It's a tug of war of whose priorities take precedence. To be absolutely clear I am not equating deposits with issues of personal safety. Safety is obviously more important. It's just another example of push-pull between clients and SPs. BUT, and to be perfectly clear here, STALKING, KIDNAPPING,ROBBERY, ASSAULT, MURDER, DRUGGING and BLACKMAIL happen to clients too. Danger is not the single exclusive province of the SP.

Really I don't get why I am even stating a point so hard... I tend to try and give those I see their anonymity as well. Preferingbthe booking to be something we both feel good about. I don't ask for information I myself wouldn't share. Except address, I need to know where I am going.
My issue is I read all these steps to avoid even sharing who the client is, are the same ones who give misdirecting information. Address next door to their building, or another apartment number than their own. Refusing to give an apartment number.
Normalizing misinformation makes this an even more dangerous field to be in.
There is protecting yourself, and then there's intentionally misleading another. Protect yourself, don't give information you are not willing to give, but falsified information is another monster designed for people with bad intentions.

 

[urquell]

Really I don't get why I am even stating a point so hard... I tend to try and give those I see their anonymity as well. Preferingbthe booking to be something we both feel good about. I don't ask for information I myself wouldn't share. Except address, I need to know where I am going.
My issue is I read all these steps to avoid even sharing who the client is, are the same ones who give misdirecting information. Address next door to their building, or another apartment number than their own. Refusing to give an apartment number.
Normalizing misinformation makes this an even more dangerous field to be in.
There is protecting yourself, and then there's intentionally misleading another. Protect yourself, don't give information you are not willing to give, but falsified information is another monster designed for people with bad intentions.

OK. but intention is the key here. There is space for both parties to misrepresent, even for benign purposes that are also simultaneously security precautions. Let's pick something simple. A client has a burner phone that he uses to hobby because his SO regularly goes through his normal phone. He is giving you "deceptive" information for reasons that have nothing to do with you and with no ill intent. Does that count? At what level does the deception become dangerous or sketchy? Might be hard to measure. Seems to me like motive is important and probably your gut about people has to come into play more than the action in some instances. It's difficult to gauge using only indirect communication, I grant you.

At best it's all an imperfect system, and it sucks that any of it is necessary at all.

 

[luxurystacy]

I'm not sure why your tone is so angry here, since I'm having a civil discussion here, but let's unpack this:

1) I never said that there weren't dangers to SPs. In fact I understand completely why SPs operate anonymously and as you said I clearly understand the dangers. I encourage the SPs to take precautions to protect themselves.
2) What is different is that you don't seem to understand the dangers to clients, possibly because you don't think of yourself as a danger to them. No, clients are not likely to get raped. They are, however, in danger of being robbed, beaten and robbed, scammed, video'd, photographed and blackmailed. I also know of one case where the SPs job was to keep the client busy and their confederate cleaned out the undefended car, took photos of the plate etc. I personally know several people that have been robbed and I have had minor articles and amounts of cash stolen from me. I personally know one guy who has been beaten and robbed, and I know of several others not anecdotally but through direct conversations with gents while traveling. I know personally one man who was blackmailed for almost 3 years. So, if you're telling me you know what my answers are going to be then you're clearly mistaken. I've belonged to probably someone around 20 boards over the course of my adventures in the hobby. There are hundreds of accounts of men being victims for all the types of interactions I've described, and thousands of minor infractions like deposits disappearing, minor personal articles or amounts of money disappearing, etc. Also, when traveling the loss of personal documents can be potentially devastating and of great personal concern, but yes, I understand that doesn't apply here.

So, why should clients take precautions? You're right. Not so hard to understand. It also doesn't preclude SPs from taking steps to protect themselves too. Everyone deserves to be safe.

Yes these things can happen to men too. But it's miles away from what we are going true. First, it doesn't happen as often to men. Ive been doing this for many years and these situations have happen to me at least 100 time.I dont think you will find a men that was abuse by 100 differents SP. Also, you cant compare the physical force of men vs women. I could never beat a men. Im 5 feet, 100 pounds. Let's be real. And comparing getting robbed/scammed to being beat,rape,life threats....is....yeah not the same at all. I would prefer get rob and scam 100X more than getting rape.

You said that you agree that SP should take precautions for their safety and need to protect themselves; and even if it's not 100% efficient, the only way we have to protect ourself is by screening.
Why do you think laws, policies etc exist? It's to solve and regulate problems; problems that happens enough that a law or policy was made to counter it. SP wouldn't need screening if clients were respectful and good. Same as we wouldn't need laws for murder if peoples wouldn't kill each other. The law for drinking under the influence was a result of many deaths by car accident when the driver had been drinking alcohol. There is always a reason for everything.

 

[urquell]

Yes these things can happen to men too. But it's miles away from what we are going true. First, it doesn't happen as often to men. Ive been doing this for many years and these situations have happen to me at least 100 time.I dont think you will find a men that was abuse by 100 differents SP. Also, you cant compare the physical force of men vs women. I could never beat a men. Im 5 feet, 100 pounds. Let's be real. And comparing getting robbed/scammed to being beat,rape,life threats....is....yeah not the same at all. I would prefer get rob and scam 100X more than getting rape.

You said that you agree that SP should take precautions for their safety and need to protect themselves; and even if it's not 100% efficient, the only way we have to protect ourself is by screening.
Why do you think laws, policies etc exist? It's to solve and regulate problems; problems that happens enough that a law or policy was made to counter it. SP wouldn't need screening if clients were respectful and good. Same as we wouldn't need laws for murder if peoples wouldn't kill each other. The law for drinking under the influence was a result of many deaths by car accident when the driver had been drinking alcohol. There is always a reason for everything.

actually, I wasn't as much thinking about women beating their clients (although that happens too) as about the women's pimps/accomplices doing it. I'm also not just talking about it from a local perspective, but from a global perspective. In a great many places men who beat women get a trip to the hospital long before they get to the airport. Men who get beaten get laughed at.

Still, and once again for the peanut gallery, I'm not trying to equate the dangers women have to deal with with the ones men have to deal with. I've already said that men generally don't have to worry about rape for example. Men have to worry about other stuff. My point is here is that you seem to want to insist on making it a contest and it's not a contest. It's about recognizing that both sides have reasons to want to hide aspects of their identities in order to protect themselves. It is categorically NOT about minimizing the dangers to SPs.

 

[LC18]

May I ask what kind of ads you’re looking at that makes you want to walk into a place with a fake wallet, a chastity belt and a swat team on speed dial?

I mean sure, if you’re the type of person to gamble a date on LL, I can understand that you would want to be extra caution and I don’t think you’re being too much considering the stories I’ve read in the review section…

If you’re meeting with an agency or a reputable Indy. They’ll most likely either have reviews or just be mentioned here and there on boards and you shouldn’t feel like you need to send your will to your loved ones before you meet her

 

[LeDodo]

May I ask what kind of ads you’re looking at that makes you want to walk into a place with a fake wallet, a chastity belt and a swat team on speed dial?

I mean sure, if you’re the type of person to gamble a date on LL, I can understand that you would want to be extra caution and I don’t think you’re being too much considering the stories I’ve read in the review section…

If you’re meeting with an agency or a reputable Indy. They’ll most likely either have reviews or just be mentioned here and there on boards and you shouldn’t feel like you need to send your will to your loved ones before you meet her

Was thinking the same.

Mentioned precautions are out of a robber movie like La Casa de Papel where you are wanted by Interpol and you buy a burner phone talking to another Nokia 3210 that you destroyed after your call and hire Indian hackers to help you lol

But rightful precautions if you are mongering in a shady place like in South America or LL.

 

[urquell]

May I ask what kind of ads you’re looking at that makes you want to walk into a place with a fake wallet, a chastity belt and a swat team on speed dial?

I mean sure, if you’re the type of person to gamble a date on LL, I can understand that you would want to be extra caution and I don’t think you’re being too much considering the stories I’ve read in the review section…

If you’re meeting with an agency or a reputable Indy. They’ll most likely either have reviews or just be mentioned here and there on boards and you shouldn’t feel like you need to send your will to your loved ones before you meet her

I'll refer you to post #29. I already covered all that. The hyperbole also wasn't necessary because I've clearly delineated over multiple posts that different situations require different things, or nothing at all, and pretending that all of these things is necessary all the time is a gross exaggeration.

Also, I don't look at ads at all anymore. I gave all that up as a waste of time for me personally and stepped outside the system to create my own circle of girls that I see that are "off grid" for lack of a better term. I didn't like the game I was playing and so I changed it. I do see MPs when I want something spontaneous or short and because I prefer indies to salons generally I take reasonable precautions when meeting someone new for the first time. As for the traveling aspect, that's an entirely different animal which I'm pleased to discuss with anyone but which I'm guessing that most people here don't care about, although there is a minority group who does. If you like I'll go into more detail but I won't bother unless someone asks because it's situational and at times can be quite detailed.

Was thinking the same.

Mentioned precautions are out of a robber movie like La Casa de Papel where you are wanted by Interpol and you buy a burner phone talking to another Nokia 3210 that you destroyed after your call and hire Indian hackers to help you lol

But rightful precautions if you are mongering in a shady place like in South America or LL

I would suggest that once you've gotten around a bit more that you might consider things differently. With your self-admitted limited exposure outside of rigid safe channels you may not be qualified to judge. I don't mean this to be demeaning. I just mean that it's hard to see the traps if you've only been exposed to the cleanest and safest channels. We are discussing the entirety of the mongering world, not just the MERB/well-reviewed SP channels. It's also funny that you find South America shady. The girls there are generally more reliable and honest than they are here, taken as an aggregate. lol. Traveling outside your city and culture does have it risks though, but most of that comes from tourists being targeted, as they are in all countries, by thieves and swindlers, rather than any inherent risks with the girls while hobbying. Still, sensible precautions are always, well, sensible.

 

[Sean007]

Am reading through this very interesting post and seems to me that everybody is right here, it’s just a matter of each’s perspective…

 

[LeDodo]

I would suggest that once you've gotten around a bit more that you might consider things differently. With your self-admitted limited exposure outside of rigid safe channels you may not be qualified to judge. I don't mean this to be demeaning. I just mean that it's hard to see the traps if you've only been exposed to the cleanest and safest channels. We are discussing the entirety of the mongering world, not just the MERB/well-reviewed SP channels. It's also funny that you find South America shady. The girls there are generally more reliable and honest than they are here, taken as an aggregate. lol. Traveling outside your city and culture does have it risks though, but most of that comes from tourists being targeted, as they are in all countries, by thieves and swindlers, rather than any inherent risks with the girls while hobbying. Still, sensible precautions are always, well, sensible.

Actually it is quite eye opening how it's going in the world outside of the commonly known safe channels. It's just that for the non-initiated it sounds exaggerated but when you get burnt it all makes sense.
I mentioned South America and LL because that's the perception of the environment or the lack of knowledge.
But if you have more to share on that feel free. It's always interesting to know more ... For the culture

 

[urquell]

Actually it is quite eye opening how it's going in the world outside of the commonly known safe channels. It's just that for the non-initiated it sounds exaggerated but when you get burnt it all makes sense.
I mentioned South America and LL because that's the perception of the environment or the lack of knowledge.
But if you have more to share on that feel free. It's always interesting to know more ... For the culture

anytime. There's lots of discussion of different places in the international section and if any area in particular is of interest to you then I'd be happy to go deeper into it with you. I don't use LL so can't help you there but there's no shortage of experience on MERB
lol

 

[Samuellou666]

Sharing my personal experience , I’ve been hobbying in Montreal for 3 years now and at the beginning I was using LL occasionally, it took one bad and threatening experience to stop completely.
Honestly with a couple of well known agencies I never take any precautions , I’m confident no one is hiding behind the couch to go steal my stuff during the action, I only take my phone in the room but just to watch the time remaining.
With well reviewed indies who ask for screening prior to the meeting I feel very safe as well.
I’m sticking to these options and there are plenty of great providers to keep me happy and safe at the same time.

 

[Sean007]

I also stick with reputable agencies and indys and have always felt 100% safe. I mighty be a little undercautious but never ran i to any issues or heard of anyone having faced issues in thèse circumstsmçes. It would be interesti g to hear if some one had problems in this kid of context, i sure haven’t.

 

[urquell]

I also stick with reputable agencies and indys and have always felt 100% safe. I mighty be a little undercautious but never ran i to any issues or heard of anyone having faced issues in thèse circumstsmçes. It would be interesti g to hear if some one had problems in this kid of context, i sure haven’t.

The short answer is yes, but the real answer requires nuance. People have been lumping everything together into an overriding theme of risk of personal assault, but we've really been talking about 3 things:

1) security of your person
2) security of your money
3) security of your identity and personal information

1) I have never felt at risk of bodily harm from any reputable provider, either indy or agency

2) Yes, I have lost deposit money twice from "reputable providers" who both cancelled appointments, did not arrange to rebook, and who ghosted me afterwards. Lesson learned. I no longer pay deposits and haven't lost a dime since. Being shortchanged on time and such I consider to be service issues rather than security risks. The deposit issue is hardly unique to me so there is some basis for worry there for everybody. I don't think outright theft of your wallet and such is a real issue with recognized providers.

3) I've never been silly enough to give out my personal info out to anyone at all, so it has never been an issue for me. I can say from direct knowledge though, from people I know and not hearsay, that people have had issues with their personal info being given to providers. How prevalent an issue is this? Hard to tell. I think a lot of it never gets mentioned for obvious reasons. Maybe not too bad generally, but it only takes one to really screw up your life and my risk tolerance for this is zero, so I guess it's whatever your risk tolerance is.

This is all assuming local conditions.

 

[Fradi]

Because what I have is a business and am providing a service, and it isn't myself I am protecting, but my kids.

Your place of work doesn't give out your personal details to customers, or clients. Because you are entitled to be off the clock when you go home, and be allotted your safty, free time and space. But are your customers or clients taken seriously or even catered to if they give false information. Most that require identification, the moment they know you are giving false information will disreguard you as a customer, and send you on your way.
And the part you don't want to admit a real safty factor for us, if someone does wrong by us we have the right to report them to the cops. RAPE happens, STALKING happens, KIDNAPPING happens, MURDER happens. And whoever is our security needs to know who we were with in the event anything actually happens to us. You providing false information is a direct attack on our safty. Most providers are little women who have no defense to the men they are going to see and are in a very vulnerable state left alone in a room with a stranger who could do any number of unspeakable things to her. You are not the vulnerable one in this and are interfering with her safty in that reguard.

If you don't want to share personal details, then don't see people who require personal details, but to fabricate everything, only leaves me to wonder what the motive is. My concern is the person fabricating an identity, plans on doing those other things, and just doesn't want to get caught when he does.

Nah,
The trouble is that most SP seem to think clients are in no danger what so ever and it should be no issue for us to provide our real names government I’d etc..
Well reality is that we may not be in as much danger as an SP but clients have been blackmailed, robbed, threatened, beaten lost their jobs , have had their families ruined etc… so no you are not going to get real names nor a government ID from me until I have known you for many years.
It has absolutely nothing to do with malice or bad intentions, I have never harmed a women and never will but I am not naive nor stupid nor that trusting.


SP dont like it tough, they have a choice and so do we, as the saying goes plenty of fish in the ocean for both sides.

 

[Samuellou666]

Nah,
The trouble is that most SP seem to think clients are in no danger what so ever and it should be no issue for us to provide our real names government I’d etc..
Well reality is that we may not be in as much danger as an SP but clients have been blackmailed, robbed, threatened, beaten lost their jobs , have had their families ruined etc… so no you are not going to get real names nor a government ID from me until I have known you for many years.
It has absolutely nothing to do with malice or bad intentions, I have never harmed a women and never will but I am not naive nor stupid nor that trusting.


SP dont like it tough, they have a choice and so do we, as the saying goes plenty of fish in the ocean for both sides.

I didn’t know you could lose your job for seeing SP. I know it’s not exactly legal but come on!!! they’re not doing it during their work hours and it’s their private sex life .

 

[Fradi]

I didn’t know you could lose your job for seeing SP. I know it’s not exactly legal but come on!!! they’re not doing it during their work hours and it’s their private sex life .

It is only private until it stops being private.
Never heard of an SP showing up at someone’s workplace, to cause a scene, bet you wouldn’t feel too comfortable working there after.
But if you don’t think that could happen feel free to give them your Linkedin account and your work phone number and address lol.

 

[urquell]

It is only private until it stops being private.
Never heard of an SP showing up at someone’s workplace, to cause a scene, bet you wouldn’t feel too comfortable working there after.
But if you don’t think that could happen feel free to give them your Linkedin account and your work phone number and address lol.

It can and does happen. Not usually to cause a scene, but sometimes a photo or a video snippet. Just writing to the boss is enough though for a lot of places. As you say, even if there's no photo and you can explain it away as a malicious prank or whatever it's still pretty fucking awkward afterwards at work. If you were dumb enough to correspond on your own personal phone or email then screenshots of that is enough and you're fucked.

 

[Samuellou666]

It is only private until it stops being private.
Never heard of an SP showing up at someone’s workplace, to cause a scene, bet you wouldn’t feel too comfortable working there after.
But if you don’t think that could happen feel free to give them your Linkedin account and your work phone number and address lol.

lol If that happened to me I would probably just go like : «yeah , I am not married, I get lonely, sometimes I pay for it so what ?!».
Seems so trivial to me but also I am not from here so maybe it is very frowned upon here so I will keep that in mind.

 

[Cap'tain Fantastic]

I didn’t know you could lose your job for seeing SP. I know it’s not exactly legal but come on!!! they’re not doing it during their work hours and it’s their private sex life .

Since "hiring" an escort is, here in Canada, a criminal offense, yes, one can potentialy lose his/her job if found guilty. Some employer dont want employee with criminal record.

 

[Samuellou666]

Since "hiring" an escort is, here in Canada, a criminal offense, yes, one can potentialy lose his/her job if found guilty. Some employer dont want employee with criminal record.

Makes sense , thanks for the advice, I’ve been a bit careless a couple of time by sending government ID (but not my LinkedIn xD ).
But it’s been awhile and none of them showed at my workplace yet.