Nice la Presse Article on XO this morning

Since this thread has blown up I'll drop my 2¢. I've been lurking it anyway.

In this world the only people who you can truly be sure are in it without being coerced or even worse - forced - are the indy's who manage themselves & ladies from the sugar websites.
Leolist/online classifieds seem hit & miss with many ladies having substance abuse issues, pimps, or being outright scammers.

I always feel like if I pick up the phone & am able to talk directly to who I will see chances are she's there without someone making her see x number of clients/day; do certain acts she might not want; see people she may not want, etc...
I'm sure indy's & sugar babies see clients they may not want or perform acts they may not be 100% OK with - but at the end of the day they have considerably more autonomy to decide their own work environments.

With agencies you just can't be sure.

I'm guilty myself of using agencies & MP's & anyone can read through my post history & see that. So I'm not trying to point fingers.
I'm very selective about who I see both in looks & personality. Montreal's indies for whatever reason rarely do it for me.
For awhile I really tried to go through those sugar dating websites but it's A LOT of work to filter fake pics, ladies with a rotten personality, asking you to send money before you've met, etc... I didn't have the patience. But maybe it's time to have a closer look at these agencies & MP's I use.

Most people work a job they don't love & I emphasize with what. But coercing (which is different from outright forcing) someone into sex acts is a level up from whatever job you might be doing that you don't like.
How much would someone have to pay you to eat out a girl you find ugly or unattractive?
What about sucking a dick?
And then how many times in a day?
And then what happens if your employer threatens to expose you if you don't double the dicks you suck in a day, and with enthusiasm?!
It's not the same as 'Damn I have to stay longer hours than I wished' or 'I have to work with this person I don't like''. Not to mention SW's are governed by laws &... corporations... which are much more fluid about their laws & rules for their clients & employees. I can only think of military/police, maybe healthcare & ambulance workers being comparable with their exposure to occupational hazards, along with a handful of other jobs (sewage ar treatment, morgue, etc...).


Also while we're on the subject - I find the Asian MP's/Agencies are reallyyyy questionable with their practices. Particularly any of the ones who have consistently rotating roster's of ladies. I won't name names. But we all know who they are.
You can think how easily anyone with a nebulous immigration status could get sucked into this underworld.
I feel bad about going to them.
But I've also known one or two ladies who have come to Canada through the agencies because they make much more money vs back home & comfortably retire after minimal time in the industry vs. if they did the same work in their own country. So it's not like I can call it out as totally evil either...

If anyone wants to offer their thoughts on what I'm saying, I'm listening.
Especially ladies still in the industry or who were.
Is there any low hanging fruit that would make this industry more ethical?

Verbal Kint said:

I think Le knows. A lot more then we think they do.
We might be crafty, but they're not dumb.
A police investigator once told me:
Kid, you wanna go on that path? Understand that as a criminal; you will always need to be lucky. As a cop; I'll only need to be lucky once!

They keep the structures that are in place because it keeps the peace.
Because you don't want to create a vacuum with random new commers that might be worst then their predecessors.
It's the same with drugs and some other illegal activities...
You stick to what is in place and most likely kicks you a couple bucks to look the other way.
It is not a line of work that will go away. It has been around before you and I, and will be in place after you and I have long gone.
If you start scaring everyone, you drive the business underground and make it even harder for Le to keep an eye on.
You put Sw back at risks of even more abuses. That defeats the very purpose of the law format that is in place, and the progress that has been made over the years.

Let's not forget; Xo went from #1 agency to not even posting on merb in a short span of time.
What happened? Let your imagination run wild. Greed?
It started a backline of chatter back to LE.
Underage girls and abuses we're mentioned.
Media got involved.
Someone put pressure.
LE pulled the plug.

A new one will rise and the cycle continues.
I am curious of what will come from the trial. My guess is: Dried up ink somewhere on page twenty eight of an old news paper, floatting in the wind.

But did it keep underage from getting involved? Yes!
Did it Highlights abuses, thus helping present Sw? Yes!
Is it all pink, sunshine and rainbows? No!
But it serves as a reminder, and it makes us talk... A lot.

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Newsflash: Also a lot of police officers are tricks and/or whores as well. Océane from the Filles de Joie agency in Laval confirmed this to me back in 2024. One of her regular is a cop from rive-sud if I recall correctly. Just last year in the USA a female patroler was exposed as a pornstar in a milf website. Law enforcement are humans as well just like us regular citizens and participate in prostitution as consumers and providers alike. They know where to look if a complete prohibition was the ultimate objective (which it is not)*.

Thepathtoparadise said:

Over the years, more than one SP told me they felt pressured by clients to hang out with them after bookings or talk to them all the time. It was not so obvious to me at first but I realized after talking about many women who are in this industry and have been before, that I am paying for their time. What I understood was that for these girls working for agencies, it will be more advantageous to see clients outside in order to be better paid or maybe get a sugar daddy or two. They don't know how to work outside of the agency perhaps.

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Some said it was normal and better than now. I guess that this is showing again the ugly behind the scene.

This story broke a few days before I left on a 2-week trip to Japan (mainly to attend the F1 GP of Japan-not to pursue "the hobby"). I didn't see it until I got back a few days ago. I have read the LP article, watched the "Clementine" interview and read some of the posts in the thread, some of which are good and some are overwrought. Here are a few quick thoughts of my own.

First, it's great to see a thread in the Lounge that is actually worth reading! It's been a long time since I thought that.

I'm not surprised that La Presse broke this story. LP is the now the main newspaper of the francophone establishment in Montreal (Le Journal de Montreal is more of a blue collar paper) and it has long been clear that most of its reporters, commentators and editors do not like Montreal's reputation as a destination for sex tourism (even though most visitors to Montreal have no knowledge about this part of Montreal's list of attractions). If the staff of La Presse could vote on abolishing prostitution and strip clubs, most would vote Oui in an instant. Neverthless, the newspaper loves stories like this since it attracts readers and these days newspapers need all the readers they can get.

Strangely, I couldn't find any coverage of the story in LJDM and the Montreal Gazette. Maybe it's not really that big of a story and maybe the police tipped off La Presse about the story knowing that the paper would support this kind of operation.

I'm also not surprised that the usual suspects immediately jumped on the opportunity presented by the story to promote the idea " Indies good, agencies bad." Of course, they deny that's what they're doing but they are not very subtle in their comments and I can see that they are having an effect on guys. Many have sworn that they will never use agencies again and only use indies. That doesn't bother me, because everyone has to do what they can to promote their business and disparage the competition. And when one of your competitors (XO) fucks up and creates mass hysteria, it's a great time to get your customers to swear to only buy what you're selling (the supposedly superior and more "ethical" indy experience). Nevertheless when things calm down, I doubt those promises not to use agencies will be kept.

Of course, it is possible that this is the beginning of the end for escort agencies in Montreal (MERB indies sure hope so). As I and others have noted, the laws to put an end to agencies have been on the books for years and it's just a question of enforcing them. However, to paraphrase Mark Twain, I think the reports of the demise of agencies have been greatly exaggerated. Based on what we know so far, this is an isolated case of one agency becoming very complacent and fucking up. It apparently hired a 17 year old girl (I am shocked, shocked to see that any female under the age of 18 has a sexual fantasy of becoming an escort and getting highly paid to have sex when she has been having sex for free since she was 14 or 15). XO managed to mistreat and alienate a few girls with their poor management practices to the extent that the girls complained to the police.

Worst of all, XO alienated the tenants of the residential buildings that it used as it places of business. I have always been surprised that the main incall agencies got away with this practice for such a long time. Since I am a visitor to Montreal and I always use my hotel room as a rendezvous site, I have never used an agency that mainly does incalls. I understand the advantages of incalls but I never liked the idea of sneaking around in residential areas and buildings. It's kind of amazing that the incall business model didn't cause a big problem sooner than now.

I have been around the Montreal escort scene long enough to know that cases like this one have happened before and a few posters have cited some examples. Those previous incidents did not put an end to escort agencies in general, just to one agency in particular. I don't think there is any danger to the clients of XO, though the agency staff who were arrested do have something to worry about. They may even be convicted of something though that remains to be seen. We should remember that even Canada extends a presumption of innocence to the accused and we need to wait to see what happens to them. The sensational accusations of the purported "survivors" are not proof of anything yet. As I have clearly stated before, I do not subscribe to the "believe all women" school of thought.

MtlGuyNow said:

Trump will pardon them.

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Ha!

I really wish I have known some of you folks when I was in college because I would pay some of you top dollar to write my papers and probably end up in the Dean’s List.

davydream52 said:

At one point I wasn't using burner when I started. Are they going to come after the clients now if needed seemingly they can easily track who's who.

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I don’t see them doing that unless you literally handed them all the evidence they needed by being stupid and over communicating when booking.

286.1 (1) Everyone who, in any place, obtains for consideration, or communicates with anyone for the purpose of obtaining for consideration, the sexual services of a person is guilty

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Essential elements require consideration and sexual services.

Booking should never involve any discussions of cost (eg consideration) or services. When I book, it is just “Is Kate available at 7pm on Tuesday?” That’s it.

Never mention cost and never mention services. You research that yourself.

transatlantic said:

I don’t see them doing that unless you literally handed them all the evidence they needed by being stupid and over communicating when booking.

Criminal Code

Federal laws of Canada

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca

Essential elements require consideration and sexual services.

Booking should never involve any discussions of cost (eg consideration) or services. When I book, it is just “Is Kate available at 7pm on Tuesday?” That’s it.

Never mention cost and never mention services. You research that yourself.

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Technically paying for companionship is not illegal. So the rule of thumb is to not text anything explicit or sexual.

transatlantic said:

Never mention cost and never mention services. You research that yourself.

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It's not uncommon for the agency to mention price and ask you to confirm it.

J'ai écouté le poscast Pire idée de ma vie : sugar baby . Je ne sais pas ce qui est vrai de ce qui est faux.
Par exemple, il est mentionné que le voisin de la famille de Clémentine aurait fait un virement dans le compte bancaire
de Clémentine. Les parents l'auraient découvert et auraient confronté le voisin. Donc, soit Clémentine aurait initié la rencontre
avec le voisin, soit le voisin l'aurait initié, soit le voisin aurait rencontré Clémentine à l'agence... Dans tous les cas, c'est plutôt invraisemblable.

Parmis les 52 pages de discussions, est-ce qu'un membre à déjà rencontré Jade de XO ?

transatlantic said:

Never mention cost and never mention services. You research that yourself.

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The issue with this is some providers prefer to know in advance what to expect. Especially for things like anal that require some prep lol... Or kink/roleplays which requires communication, same goes for outfit requests etc

transatlantic said:

Never mention cost and never mention services. You research that yourself.

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That might work with an agency. But there's no way I would be going to see someone without having properly been assured we are compatible, which means communication before meeting up, and assuring there is no misunderstandings.

I don't want to show up to find out they weren't properly prepared because of discretion. Or that they were expecting and wanting a service I was not willing to provide.

Julia Sky said:

The issue with this is some providers prefer to know in advance what to expect. Especially for things like anal that require some prep lol... Or kink/roleplays which requires communication, same goes for outfit requests etc

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True and agreed I also like to confirm the services I seek. Doing that with Indys is okay but with agencies given what happened to XO that is risky. Hence why in the US no SPs every discuss services by text, no explicit talk.

Agencies like those in MTL do not exist in the US as the puritanical past and the current polarized religious right have heavily criminalized sex work and pushed it into the fringes to either the domain of the wealthy or to substance addicted streetwalkers . The fact that most indy providers see sex work as a form of progressive female empowerment and thus lean left, doesn't help. The police have ample resources and vice is considered very easy win. There are regular sting operations not only for clients, but also for workers. You've all seen To Catch a Predator right? They would either use new young, female officers as lures for ads or have officers act as clients with some operations going as far as having sex with providers as there would be no dispute the money was for sex.

Also penalties are harsh as any conviction results in you being placed a sexual predator's list (among pedophiles), and most businesses/industries will force you to lose your license. Physicians will lose their license to practice. Lawyers will be disbarred and be unable to practice. Academics will be fired and be unable to work at any educational institution forever. Teachers will automatically be fired. Financial professionals will also lose their license to practice. Etc. Most decent jobs require a background check and you will not pass that with a conviction let alone being on the list which requires you to notify neighbors of you being there in addition to being publicly listed with you face present. As much argument as there is about the laws protecting providers, it's not if but when you will be convicted especially in high profile areas in Vegas or Miami especially for those who wanted to do it around the rich like during F1 or something like that. Being an indy is more safe, and those in some cities that have decriminalized/deprioritized could feel safer, but there is always a risk of LE jumping through the hoops going through multiple layers of screening and deposits to solicit you and then convicting you. It's not uncommon for police to rent out three rooms, with them camped out in 1, have the 1 room be the incall location and the third room be a holding room for all clients who arrive. Then the next day, the incall location will be the outcall room and every provider that shows up is arrested. It's also not uncommon for undercover clients to approach anyone working at the casino floor, wait for some sort of solicitation and bring the provider up to the room where other police are waiting.

Just looking at the schedules of the agencies in MTL show that most SP work maybe 3 days a week and there's a wide margin of hours from those working 8-9 hours to those working 2-3. Moreover, SPs have said that one of the benefits of this work and working at the agency is the flexibility. They notify the agencies the days they want to work and they work around their civi work, their families (children), vacations, hobbies, unpaid dates, and their work as an indy. So likely the XO fines were unique to them. One booker and the SP confirmed that she sets a 14 hr range and runs errands between bookings. Some SPs have said they have travel plans to Mexico, Japan/China, Europe and just go on hiatus. There does not appear to be any punishment here.

If there is any major critique or obvious coercion, it's that agencies do minimal screening of new clients. They ask age, ethnicity and maybe will ask how do you act or expect from the SP, but no real request to get a reference. After even after you have had bookings, the SPs confirm that bookers do not really ask about the clients and there is no persistent client review or ratings like on Uber or Airbnb. I've asked whether SPs would turn down clients that show up at the door, and it seems that the bar is very high for denials even for hygiene. SPs are more likely to send the person back to the showers repeatedly than turn them away. So I've asked whether a homeless man you see in the metro would be turned away, and I've heard from at least one SP shockingly that they would not. However, I've confirmed from SP that both Forever/Euphoria have covert security with clients being met at the room or even outside the condo for nonpayment issues, pushing bbfs or being rough/rude. Merb itself is also coercive as fear of bad reviews could push newer SPs to go beyond their boundaries or not report bad clients.

At the end of the day, SP are women often over 25 with their own agency and fully formed brains. In MTL, there is lack of evidence of forced trafficking (e.g. typical cases of women smuggled from Latin America or Eastern Europe and owing a debt that they have to pay back to the agency). If anything, it seems that 1/3 to 1/2 at agencies are immigrants and may not have PR and that's a Canadian immigration issue not agency issue. What I've pulled out of some SP is that working at agencies even after a $70-$80 house fee of the $270-$280, most SP clear $16k minimum per month working 3-4 days a week. Then, you add any indy work and OF on top of that, I could see $200k/yr+ in cash. And for the owners, just based on fees alone, I seems that they are making $180k-$125k/month in revenue, and I doubt wages, rent, advertising is anything over $50k. Given that even for today's schedules, the average age seems to be mid 20s with the youngest 20, the agencies do not appear to be pushing barely legal SPs. It also does not logically seem to be in their interest to risk a multi million dollar business bringing in LE scrutiny by hiring an underage SP. And the agencies are notorious for posting ages that are younger than SP's true ages so that lends even more credence against underage hiring.

Hmmm… said:

Agencies like those in MTL do not exist in the US as the puritanical past and the current polarized religious…

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Such a long and off topic post! I gave up reading after the first 25 words!

Les États-Unis ont probablement le pire problème de traite des êtres humains au monde, mdr.

Soyons sérieux deux secondes. Les protestants évangéliques font régulièrement des trucs vraiment glauques et s’en tirent sans conséquences, parce que les États-Unis comptent sur eux dans leur machine de guerre.

Même les Anglais n’étaient pas aussi mauvais qu’eux.

Cosmo Kramer 69 said:

J'ai écouté le poscast Pire idée de ma vie : sugar baby . Je ne sais pas ce qui est vrai de ce qui est faux.
Par exemple, il est mentionné que le voisin de la famille de Clémentine aurait fait un virement dans le compte bancaire
de Clémentine. Les parents l'auraient découvert et auraient confronté le voisin. Donc, soit Clémentine aurait initié la rencontre
avec le voisin, soit le voisin l'aurait initié, soit le voisin aurait rencontré Clémentine à l'agence... Dans tous les cas, c'est plutôt invraisemblable.

Parmis les 52 pages de discussions, est-ce qu'un membre à déjà rencontré Jade de XO ?

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D'après ce que j'ai lu les gars se sont pas fait arrêter parce qu'elle était battue, menacée ou obligée. Juste d'avoir pris une cote sur les filles.

Mon impression c'est qu'elle a l'air d'en avoir profité en masse et quand sa famille s'est rendue compte de ce qu'elle faisait elle avait trop honte et a inventé cette histoire par peur d'avouer qu'elle faisait ça pour l'$$

J'ai vu l'entrevue d'une fille qui a eu de mauvais traitements chez xo, je suis naif mais je pensais pas que chez eux ce genre de trucs se passait, sans nommer les agences, est-ce que ces pratiques sont courantes dans d'autres agences considérées comme classy?

Some regulars of XO were very rough and abusive with the girls. This was tolerated by the agency for whatever reasons. Also, a lot of the girls tolerated this because of the popularity of XO at the time and the amount of money they were making there. They tolerated this to the point where they would side with the agency if a customer pointed this out to them or to the agency. I know for a fact that some guys used the anonymous tip hotline of the police to file reports about XO after they were threatened, not in a an obvious but indirect yet still clear way. I mean, we're talking about the same people who regularly smashed the intercoms of apartment buildings that had rival agencies.

I never resorted to agencies, only indies, and this is good confirmation.
When you book an indy SP, it's extra reassurance that she's not being exploited by someone - it's no guarantee (she could have a pimp taking advantage of her), but less risk than an agency run by god knows who doing god knows what to their women