Addicted to sex

[General Gonad]

I am researching material on addictions to sex. I found these signs from an interesting article on the BBC website:

What are the signs?
Dr Patrick Carnes, one of the world's leading experts in sexual addiction, suggests there are ten possible warning signs:

1. Feeling that your behaviour is out of control.
2. Being aware that there may be severe consequences if you continue.
3. Feeling unable to stop your behaviour, despite knowing the consequences.
4. Persistently pursuing destructive and/or high-risk activities.
5. Wanting to stop or control what you're doing and taking active steps to limit your activities.
6. Using sexual fantasies as a way of coping with difficult feelings or situations.
7. Needing more and more sexual activity in order to experience the same high.
8. Suffering from intense mood swings around sexual activity.
9. Spending an increasing amount of time planning, engaging in or regretting and recovering from sexual activities.
10. Neglecting important social, occupational or recreational activities in favour of sexual behaviour.

The full article can be viewed here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/sex_and_sexual_health/probs_sexaddiction.shtml

While I feel that many of us are not classic "sex addicts", we should recognize that there are serious consequences:

The consequences
A survey of sexual addicts (source: Dr Carne's site, www.sexhelp.com) revealed that as a result of their behaviour:

• 70 per cent had severe relationship problems
• 40 per cent had lost a partner
• 27 per cent had lost career opportunities
• 40 per cent had experienced unwanted pregnancies
• 72 per cent suffered suicidal obsession
• 17 per cent had attempted suicide
• 68 per cent had been exposed to sexually transmitted infections

I am opening up this discussion because I feel it is worth exploring in detail. Feel free to input your thoughts.

GG

 

[Techman]

i think that a lot of hobbyists suffer from White Knight syndrome, hoping to save the lady, an escort or dancer, from her "sad" life. Unfortunately it's the hobbyist that usually needs saving. There are a lot of girls who play up this angle, saying that their boyfriend or ex bf abused them and so on. There are more games than there are white knights. I think that more dancers use these ploys than escorts because they are able to keep us at arm's length and we tend to see them more often that we would an escort. Although I have no experience in the escort area and can't really comment on it, I do know how easy it is to get hung up on a dancer and to keep wanting to see her. I imagine it would be harder to stop seeing an escort that you've developed feelings for.

 

[General Gonad]

some responses

Olie,

You might be right but we shouldn't stereotype and think that most clients are lonely people looking to fall in love. Some ladies play clients, most don't.

>>Regnad,

I see some problems in the first three signs but not to a pathological extent - at least not yet. I think #4, #6 - #10 are very serious and warrant professional help.

>>Techman,

I must admit that I am a sucker for helping people. You call this the "White Knight" syndrome. I am careful, however, not to fall for every sad story hook, line and sinker. But when I see a genuine soul in despair, I prefer to help. Does this make me a born sucker? Maybe, but if I can truly help at least one person, it's well worth it!

GG

 

[Techman]

GG, helping someone who genuinely needs help is not what I mean. I also am like that and it feels great when I am able to help someone. A white knight is someone who goes expressly looking for the kind of girl who is in a bad situation; bad bf, drug problems, money problems, etc... I'd say that many of them don't even know they do it. Helping someone in need is an honorable thing to do, when the person you are trying to help is truly in need and not taking you for a ride. The trick is in being able to tell the difference.

 

[General Gonad]

reply from Terb

Helping someone in need is an honorable thing to do, when the person you are trying to help is truly in need and not taking you for a ride. The trick is in being able to tell the difference.

Thanks for clarifying, I agree with you, the trick is being able to tell the difference.

BTW, here is a great reply I got from oagre on Terb:

"I should read the article before responding. But for what it's worth, this is off the cuff.

First, all men and many women are "sexual addicts" in a sense because we have a sex drive and derive pleasure from the act of sex. Some sexual activity is necessary for most of us and the frequency and intensity varies with our sex drive. Someone "needs" sex naturally; one does not "need" cocaine or heroin naturally.

So the problem stems from our relationship with our sex drive, rather than the sex drive itself. One may as well say that someone is a "food addict". Again, one needs food, but the relationship some might have with their food habits may be complicated and unhealthy.

Many people take refuge in sex fantasies to escape from life stresses for a while. Sexual fantasies are distracting, comforting and self-rewarding. This is not necessarily harmful.

You also have to factor in Guilt feelings around engaging in sex or spending (too much/ any) money on sex. When I was a younger hobbyist (and escort prices were relatively higher), I used to feel intensely ashamed of spending money on escorts and become bitter and depressed for a day or two after seeing a girl. As there is a complex relationship between guilt and desire, these feelings of guilt only intensified my desire to see more escorts a couple of weeks later.

Now I have few guilt feelings around sex and escorts and my emotional hills and valleys around sex are almost non-existent. That's because I realize that seeing escorts is a lot of (basically harmless) fun and I peg my spending at a level I can afford over a long period of time."
__________________

 

[General Gonad]

Most regular posters here would fall under # 9 at a minimum.

Regular hobbyists ( more than a year ) are all addicted to one degree or another.

The biggest step for all addicts is to get over the denial stage.

Train,

What does posting regularly have to do with #9:

"Spending an increasing amount of time planning, engaging in or regretting and recovering from sexual activities."

I post regularly but it has nothing to do with planning and engaging in sexual activities. Of course lately, I will not deny that there is some regretting going on (both on hobbying and retiring from hobbying!) or an effort in trying to understand what led me to this hobby.

I do agree with you that regular hobbyist are all addicted to one degree or another. However, I think for the overwhelming majority this is not a full fledged pathological obssession.

GG

 

[Doc Holliday]

Sex addiction: one of my friends got 10 out of 10

One of my closest friends has insisted to me for years that he is a sex addict. A hopeless one. At first, i thought he was exaggerating. I thought we were all in the same boat and enjoyed what we were doing, nothing more. If he was a sex addict, then i must be one also. However, over the last couple of years, i figured out why i was so involved in the 'hobby' and it didn't have anything to do with sex. Okay, maybe a little...but if sex is what i really wanted, i could have easily got it for free in my personal life. But no, it was something else. Actually, many things, and the list is too long to explain here and i don't want to get off-topic. Once i figured this out, it wasn't that difficult for me to moderate my hobbying activities....to bring it down to a level where i'm just a casual or occasional hobbyist...where the hobbying occurs either for just sexual release or to hook up with someone i met previously and whom i enjoy spending time with.

With my friend, it's a totally different story. If he hasn't had a successful encounter, he will just pace around, get irritated and be a major pain-in-the-ass. He's in tremendous shape and if i wasn't around to coach him, he could see 3, 4 or more girls consecutively. I told him recently that his behaviour between sex sessions reminded me of a drug addict in need of his fix. Like someone in withdrawal. "You're correct, my friend", he said. "Now will you believe me that we're different and that i'm a hopeless sex addict?" You see, my friend not only sees many women when he goes to Mtl, he also has regular sexual intercourse back home. It's non-stop with him and his hunger for sex is endless. He hates feeling like this, and at times, it's driving him nuts! I checked the list posted by the general and my friend fits the profile of all 10 of them!!

This is why i often travel with my friend whenever he happens to come to Montreal. I need to be around him to coach him and take care of his 'sp' agenda. He needs me to continuously question his motives for seeing girls, whom he should see, how much money he should spend, etc. If i wouldn't be around, he'd lock himself in a room for a good part of the trip and regularly see 3 girls or more every day, for several hours each. One way i've noticed that is effective in controlling his urges is by making him see sps that are known to be hardcore and very physical in their lovemaking. Girls that have the ability to burn out their client. Girls who's view of an intimate conversation is a conversation which lasts 5 minutes or less. A couple of years ago, there was a time when we'd both see our dates at the same time, but in separate rooms. Near the end of our encounters, he would call my room and ask me to come and say hello to his date (with her permission, of course). My date(s) would often ask to come along and say hello to my friend and his date, and it wouldn't be uncommon for all of us to sit together, have a drink, have a bite to eat, and talk. Once his date would leave, my friend would wink at me and ask me if it was possible if my date could stay with him. He still needed more! Of course, depending on who the girl was (i do tend to be possessive at times...lol), i'd usually say yes if she agreed and if she was an agency girl, i'd get her to call to make sure it was okay. I'd leave them and go do something else for the next hour or two....and when we'd meet up for our regular 'after-date' get-togethers later at a bar or restaurant, i'd often hear my friend say "damn it, i think i'll call someone again! Please make me change my mind?"

Most people, including myself, do not understand sex addiction until they've either seen it or experienced it themselves. It's not very pleasant, let me assure you. These people don't even see all these girls because they love sex. I mean, don't we all? They see them because they almost 'have' to. They have to feed their hunger. The urges are nearly uncontrollable and financially, it could one day prove to be devastating. I mentionned to my friend that there must be medication out there that a sex addict can take to control his urges and appetite for sex. There must me psychologists who are experts at dealing with this problem. I even went as far as to tell him that this addiction has the potential to be worse than other more well-known addictions due to its potential high financial cost!

 

[Gee]

Remember, sex addiction is not just about sexual relations with others, masturbation is sex as well and there are a number of paraphelias that can enter into the mix at that point.

There are people who masturbate so much that they wind up creating lesions on the skin, and then keep doing it anyway even though it hasn't healed because they just can't do without it

That fits 1,2,3,4 pretty well don't you think?

 

[General Gonad]

Overcoming Sex Addiction

Some more information;

Overcoming Sex Addiction

What is Sex Addiction?

Sexual or sex addiction, simply put, is the use of sex or pornography to address non-sexual emotional needs. Countless people from different cultures struggle with this condition which not only disrupts their everyday life but also destroys it in the process. If the following situation sounds familiar to you or someone close to you then you are not alone:

Your mind is bombarded with so many pornographic images that you find yourself distracted for hours.

Your desire or drive to have sex, view pornography on the Internet or buy porn videos and magazines is so strong that you are willing to relinquish your primary responsibilities and obligations.

As a result, you may be in financial debt and maybe out of a job and yet, you still continue to engage in sexual behavior that you know is risky.

There are many more symptoms of sex addiction; please review our sex addiction assessment for a preliminary self-diagnosis.

Why is a Person Addicted to Sex?

One way to understand why a person is addicted to sex is to look at other types of addiction such as drugs and alcohol. Someone who is addicted to alcohol or drugs uses these substances to change his/her moods; in other words, the addict tries to numb emotional pain. The substance becomes more important than family, friends and work.

Eventually, the individuals reach a point where, in order to feel normal, they must have the drug or alcohol. Dr. Patrick Carnes, in his book, "Out of the Shadows", writes, "...to feel 'normal' for the alcoholic is also to feel isolated and lonely since the primary relationship he depends upon to feel adequate is a chemical, not other people."

Sex addiction parallels the above dynamic in that addicts use sexual behaviors to "medicate" or numb their feelings (such as fear, anxiety or anger) to the degree that their sexual acting out becomes their primary way of coping with emotional stress. Therefore, it is important not to confuse sexual addiction with sexual desire.

Most adults have a healthy sexual desire but not everyone uses sex to address non-sexual emotional needs. Sex addictions can take on many forms including but not limited to the following sexual behaviors:

• Anonymous sex
  
• Porn addiction (pornographic photos, videos, magazines, cyber-sex, Web sites)
  
• Chronic affairs
  
• Compulsive masturbation
  
• Sexual massages
  
• Voyeurism

Feeling Powerless is the Essence

According to Sex Addicts Anonymous, a 12-step program dedicated to helping sex addicts, "...the essence of all addiction is the addicts' experience of powerlessness over a compulsive behavior, resulting in their lives becoming unmanageable. The addict is out of control and experiences tremendous shame, pain and self-loathing." In addition, Dr. Carnes explains that one of the traits of sex addiction is that it is progressive in nature. In other words, these habitual behaviors increase in frequency and variety which result in extreme consequences.

The sex addict does not necessarily need to have sex with an individual in order to be addicted. Pornography addiction or cyber-sex is a type of sexual addiction in which the individual, more often than not, masturbates to pornographic images on the Internet. This compulsive behavior where increasing amount of time is invested in downloading images, creating files and exchanging sexual information with others via chat rooms creates a fantasy world in which the sex addict spends most of his time.

The Internet provides exactly what an addict seeks: material to fuel his insatiable sexual desires and secretly feed his fantasy in an isolated environment with an endless variety that is available not only at a touch of a button but also at any time of the day. As a result, the individual's emotional pain and stress are numbed by these fantasies and rituals dozens, if not, hundreds of times before having true intimacy (and/or sex) with a real person.

The sex addicts who use the Internet undergo a speedy progression of their addiction. An exorbitant amount of time is spent in front of the computer which leads to greater risks, increasing one's chances of getting caught. This is the reason why porn addiction has been appropriately deemed the "crack cocaine" of sex addiction.

According to review Web sites such as WebSense.com and Internetfilterreview.com, Internet pornography statistics for the year 2003 were as follows:

• 90% of 8 - 16 year olds have viewed porn online (most of them while doing their homework)
  
• The largest consumer of Internet pornography is the age group between 12 - 17
  
• About 12% of total Web sites are pornographic
  
• 25% of total search engine requests are porn-related

Why is it Important to Overcome Sex Addiction?

The consequences of sexual addiction can be devastating to not only the addict but also those close to him/her. It can leave an addict isolated, intensely anxious and depressed to the point of being suicidal.

• Low self-esteem, shame, hopelessness and despair are also common feelings experienced by sex addicts.
  
• 70% of sex addicts report severe marital or relationship problems
  
• 40% report the loss of a partner or spouse

The ramifications of sex addiction do not end on an emotional level but rather, continue onto medical, financial and legal ones as well.

Medical consequences of sex addiction may include HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) such as genital herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea. In addition, genital injury may result from excessive sexual activity or the use of foreign objects for sexual stimulation.

Financial consequences of sex addiction may include the loss of one's job, getting sued over sexual harassment or sexual exploitation charges resulting in legal fees. Purchasing pornographic material, use of prostitutes, calling 900 phone numbers and traveling for the sole purpose of sexual contacts can create enormous debt in credit card bills and exhaust the financial resources of an addict often times to the point of bankruptcy.

Legal consequences of sexual addiction. Arrest and incarceration are the most common legal ramifications of sexual addiction. The addict's out of control lifestyle compels him to engage in high risk, illegal activities such as voyeurism, exhibitionism, inappropriate touching and the solicitation of prostitutes.

How Do I Know If I'm Addicted to Sex or Pornography?

A basic approach in recognizing any addictive behavior is to assess whether it is creating overwhelming trouble in your life and yet you choose to return to it despite the problem.

If your sexual behavior is draining your time and energy and it causes you to compromise your core values and the beliefs that you hold dear to your heart then there is likely a problem. If you are acting out sexually and your behavior has resulted in health complications (psychological and/or physical), job loss and financial problems, relationships being strained or broken or more serious consequences such as being involved in litigations over inappropriate and illegal behaviors then you are most likely a sex addict.

A common misconception among sex addicts is that the problem will go away on its own and they will often say to themselves, "This is my only opportunity... I will never get a chance like this again...this is the last time that I am going to..." but experience and research shows that they will return to the same sexual situations, in spite of previous vows to change if they do not seek professional help.

Related Information

Love Addiction:

http://www.sanjosecounseling.com/love-addiction.htm

Sex Addiction Assessment - What Are the Symptoms?:

http://www.sanjosecounseling.com/sex-addiction-test.htm

Sex Addiction Treatment

http://www.sanjosecounseling.com/sex-addiction-treatment.htm

 

[Nugie]

Remember, sex addiction is not just about sexual relations with others, masturbation is sex as well and there are a number of paraphelias that can enter into the mix at that point.

There are people who masturbate so much that they wind up creating lesions on the skin, and then keep doing it anyway even though it hasn't healed because they just can't do without it

That fits 1,2,3,4 pretty well don't you think?

Holy crap I can't even count all the funny stories about me and masturbating. Luckily, most of them happened when I was about 13 and out of my mind, but still pretty funny.

I remember spanking myself as I heard my mother coming up the stairs and thinking, "I can finish before she opens the door." I didn't. That was awkward.

I remember setting my alarm clock 10 minutes earlier then I had to be awake so I could jerk off.

I remember setting my alarm clock 10 minutes earlier then I had to be awake, not finishing in time, and skipping a shower before school so I could jerk off.

I remember excusing myself from the dinner table to use the bathroom fifteen feet away from the dining room so I could jerk off. I remember having my father scream at the top of his lungs for me to get out of the bathroom right away, and me responding, "Um... I'm pooping." As I made loud spanking noises. And thinking to myself, "They don't know. How could they know?"

I remember jerking off to "The Price is Right".

I remember jerking off to extremely bad graphics on the original "Leisure Suit Larry".

Crap. Maybe I'm just a sex addict in recession.

 

[spin]

Well I'm not lonely and I don't feel the need to save anyone, guys all kidding aside I'm addicted to sex.

This is not a sad woe is me post, I live a pretty good and very fortunate life but I fight my addiction every day. It's not fun (well sometimes it is I guess) and it does at times seriously affect my life. On more than one occassion over the years my addiction to sex has caused great problems in my life - I lost a fiancee, lost friends, and financially at times lived through nightmares! I will be honest gentleman I have been (up to this point very fortunate) and have always been able to hussle my way out of trouble.

I will admit that I have an addictive personality, I have been addicted to a few things over the years, cigarettes, drugs - not one drug in particular but I was addicted to being "high" (this is a very particular and tough addiction to overcome). I was never drawn to one particular drug and honeslty have never even tried the so called "hard" drugs that you hear all of the stories about (heroin/crack/crystal meth). I was a pot/hash/extacy/speed/mushroom addict for almost 6 years. Every night I need to get high.

I have just come to accept (a few months ago) that I am addicted to sex (have been for years now) and to be honest about it I seem to be fighting a loosing battle (I may have replaced my drug addiction with a sexual one). I'm not going to go on as I'm not looking for therapy from the board (no offense) and it's not an easy subject to talk about (yes even anonomously here) but if there are any others reading this who suffer from the same problem, well you're not alone.

Non mainstream addictions like sex can be very hard for those affected as treatment is not easily available and it does carry a "common just stop dumbass" stigma.

Come to think of it I may have an addiction to making life hard???

 

[Techman]

Prior to that I'd use the Victoria's Secret catalogue we got in our junk mail-an adolescent favorite.

You don't know how lucky you are. When I was a kid Victoria's Secret didn't exist and I had to get by with the Sear's catalogue.

 

[chef]

You don't know how lucky you are. When I was a kid Victoria's Secret didn't exist and I had to get by with the Sear's catalogue.

You don't know how lucky you are. When I was a kid (not in Canada) we did not have any catalogs.

 

[spin]

When I was a kid Victoria's Secret didn't exist and I had to get by with the Sear's catalogue.

Ha! Me too, I laughed my ass off when I read that - I still have a soft spot in my heart for the old Sears catalogue.

 

[h35ansdrummond]

I have been asking myself

well I did ask myself before, if I could be addicted to sex but none of the applies to my situation

I love sex that's for shure, I have a family and everything is going ok, I just love the thrill of having sex with another women than mine......so from time to time, once a week, sometime everuy other week and sometime I take a break when there's not new girl around,
I'm always protectiong myself

so I'm not addicted to sex only to pleasures....lol:

 

[General Gonad]

Expert says drug addiction, brain disease linked

I saw this article on ctv.ca:

Expert says drug addiction, brain disease linked
Updated Wed. Apr. 5 2006 8:15 AM ET

Associated Press

WASHINGTON — Call it the science of peer pressure. When teenagers fail to just say no to drugs, Dr. Nora Volkow blames their brains, not their willpower - they lack links between some crucial brain regions that won't fully form until they're adults.

Age matters a lot when it comes to drug abuse. It's an evolving view of addiction that Volkow brings as head of the U.S. government's National Institute on Drug Abuse. And it's a career born of a tragic family history - she's the great-granddaughter of assassinated Russian revolutionary Leon Trotsky - that sparked an urge to help others.

"I do believe we all have a responsibility with our lives," Volkow says with passion. "It's just an extraordinary miracle that we exist, as a person with our unique characteristics."

Unique is a word many use to describe Volkow, who grew up in the Mexico City house where her famous ancestor was killed, and moved to the United States in her 20s to pioneer research peering inside living people's brains to trace the effects of drugs.

She first achieved acclaim by discovering that cocaine was neurotoxic, a radical notion in the early 1980s. Since then, Volkow, 49, has systematically probed alcohol, nicotine, heroin, methamphetamine, even overeating - obesity, she recently reported, shares many compulsive traits with drug abuse - to uncover the brain circuitry that underpins addiction.

Now, three years into a stint directing the government's $1 billion anti-drug research program, Volkow is channelling new energy into determining exactly how the brains of addicts and those who never get hooked differ - so scientists can develop better ways to prevent and treat drug abuse.

"What is it that makes a person more vulnerable to take drugs or not?" she asks.

It's a far more complex view of addiction than urging people to just say no, says Joanna Fowler, a chemist at the Brookhaven National Laboratory who has collaborated with Volkow for more than two decades.

"Now we have Nora's picture rather than a picture of fried eggs," Fowler says, referring to an old government anti-drug campaign that compared a brain on drugs to a sizzling egg. "We can go beyond that knee-jerk picture of a brain to a real brain."

Volkow is showing that addiction "has to be seen as a health issue as well as a criminal or social justice issue," says Alan Leshner, chief of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and her predecessor at NIDA. "She has definitely moved neuroscience forward."

Adds Fowler: "If you can conceptualize it (addiction) as a brain disease rather than a moral weakness or lack of willpower, you can more easily bring resources to bear."

A fascination with free will, and how it can be thwarted, took root in Volkow's childhood.

A brief history: Trotsky, her great-grandfather, had been a leader of the Russian revolution and one of Vladimir Lenin's right-hand men until the Bolshevik ruler's death in 1924. Trotsky then was expelled as Soviet dictator Josef Stalin consolidated power, and most of the family died during Stalin's purges. Trotsky, with his second wife and orphaned 13-year-old grandson, wound up in Mexico City, where in 1940, a Stalin agent killed Trotsky in his study.

Volkow was born in the same house 16 years later, and learned her family history largely from visitors touring her home; her traumatized father didn't discuss it with his own daughters until they were almost grown.

"When you start to live in a situation like that ... it creates a sense of responsibility to your own life to do something that can help others," Volkow says.

A fascination with the human brain, and recalling the struggles of a "very charming" but alcoholic uncle, helped lead to addiction research. "To me, there was an extraordinary opportunity to try to understand what happens in the brain when you've lost that ability for free will."

It starts young. Consider: People who don't use drugs before age 21 hardly ever get hooked later in life.

Teens are particularly vulnerable because their brains don't finish forming until the early 20s. The frontal cortex, among the last regions to mature, is where the brain's cognitive or reasoning side creates connections with emotion-related regions.

So, put teens in an emotionally charged situation - say, surrounded by friends egging them on - and their ability "to stand up and say 'I'm not going to do it' is much harder than (for) an adult," Volkow explains.

Also, teens are more willing to take risks, also because of weak links between the "why-not" side of the brain and the "remember the consequences" side.

In fact, Volkow fears anti-drug programs that attempt to scare teens may inadvertently spur drug experimentation.

"It is that notion of 'I dare you,"' she says. "It may be appealing to an adolescent because they are seeking for danger in many instances."

Volkow's own research shows a promising avenue: Drugs essentially hijack a brain chemical called dopamine that's involved with sensing pleasure, until eventually abusers can no longer sense pleasure from anything but a high. Social acceptance boosts dopamine, so something as simple as group therapy may help fight drug relapses.

"One of the most powerful things that makes us feel good is when someone we admire, appreciate, for example, values us," Volkow explains.

 

[General Gonad]

Teens are particularly vulnerable because their brains don't finish forming until the early 20s. The frontal cortex, among the last regions to mature, is where the brain's cognitive or reasoning side creates connections with emotion-related regions.

...

Also, teens are more willing to take risks, also because of weak links between the "why-not" side of the brain and the "remember the consequences" side.


...

"One of the most powerful things that makes us feel good is when someone we admire, appreciate, for example, values us," Volkow explains.

Here are my thoughts on the article I posted this afternoon:

Sometimes I feel that my frontal cortex has not fully developed! I am a risk-taker but not in a dumb way. The SPs that I've met made me feel great - I admire and appreciate all of them.

GG

 

[chef]

Here are my thoughts on the article I posted this afternoon:

Sometimes I feel that my frontal cortex has not fully developed! ............GG

The frontal cortex of the upper or lower brain ???

 

[General Gonad]

The frontal cortex of the upper or lower brain ???

I guess both.

BTW, if my brain is near my ass does that make me a shit-for-brains?

GG

 

[chef]

................

BTW, if my brain is near my ass does that make me a shit-for-brains?

GG

No, that makes you a stinker instead of a thinker