Air canada loses lawsuit over stewardess failing to speak in "mother tongue"
- Thread starter StefanoUS
- Start date
Well,
First of all Double-J, I don't know where you have been keeping yourself, but you seem to have missed the endless news that the U.S. has many millions of overwhelmingly Spanish speaking people and others, around 11 million or about 1/3 of all Canada, neither born here nor often working on citizenship despite amnesty offers, who not only enjoy many financial benefits legally and illegally, but are also the cause of many Spanish speaking job requirements for naturally born English speaking Americans seeking jobs in many fields who cannot get them because of this same situation. In my corner we often have to accommodate Portuguese nationals.
I almost included this in the last post, but I thought it might be imposing on the subject which is Canada. However, since you as a Canadian (presumed) decided to speak on that which you seem to know so little, I am happy to educate you.
In the U.S. many are made to compensate for the presence of non-natives and yet in Canada many won't cooperate with their native born. And I still say a lot of what is going on in this thread is comes down to worthless stubbornness.
However, you are right that some stances here are harsher than what the person does in reality. I know couple of guys posting in this thread who have no real issue speaking the other language they seem to resent here.
Cheers,
Merlot
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What you are missing is the fact that when serving in a restaurant in Montreal, you will come in contact with the public, a large portion of which is French speaking. Regardless of the area of Montreal you operate in. Never mind the language regulations, in situations like this, French is a prerequisite.
I was just perusing IT (Information technology) jobs, some of which are "internal" development jobs, and many require levels of English.
Let me see if I understand this debate.
If you are in Montreal, which is at least 30% English, and someone refuses to serve you in English too bad because everybody should speak French to show respect for the majority, French is endangered etc.
However, if you are in an English area of Canada (e.g. Toronto which is 3% Francophone), you deserve more than 10k if nobody can be found to serve you in French as French is an official language of Canada.
By the way, my clients are overseas so I don't need French at all for work. However, I have made the effort to be completely bilingual (although I make more mistakes in French). I am one of the good anglophones!
Laissez-moi voir si je comprends bien ce débat.
Si vous êtes à Montréal, qui est au moins 30% anglophone, et quelqu'un refuse de vous servir en anglais tant pis car tout le monde doit parler français pour montrer du respect pour la majorité, le français est en danger etc
Cependant, si vous êtes dans une région anglaise du Canada (par exemple à Toronto, qui est francophone à 3%), vous méritez plus que 10k si personne ne peut être trouvée pour vous servir en français car le français est une langue officielle du Canada.
En passant, Mes clients sont à l'étranger donc je n'ai pas besoin du tout le français au travail. Cependant, j'ai fait l'effort pour être complètement bilingue (même si je fais plus d'erreurs en français). Je suis l'un des anglophones bon!
If you are in Montreal, which is at least 30% English, and someone refuses to serve you in English too bad because everybody should speak French to show respect for the majority, French is endangered etc.
However, if you are in an English area of Canada (e.g. Toronto which is 3% Francophone), you deserve more than 10k if nobody can be found to serve you in French as French is an official language of Canada.
By the way, my clients are overseas so I don't need French at all for work. However, I have made the effort to be completely bilingual (although I make more mistakes in French). I am one of the good anglophones!
Laissez-moi voir si je comprends bien ce débat.
Si vous êtes à Montréal, qui est au moins 30% anglophone, et quelqu'un refuse de vous servir en anglais tant pis car tout le monde doit parler français pour montrer du respect pour la majorité, le français est en danger etc
Cependant, si vous êtes dans une région anglaise du Canada (par exemple à Toronto, qui est francophone à 3%), vous méritez plus que 10k si personne ne peut être trouvée pour vous servir en français car le français est une langue officielle du Canada.
En passant, Mes clients sont à l'étranger donc je n'ai pas besoin du tout le français au travail. Cependant, j'ai fait l'effort pour être complètement bilingue (même si je fais plus d'erreurs en français). Je suis l'un des anglophones bon!
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Ok M. Blackbird, it's Augustine Aloysius to you
,I'm not mis or uninformed about the Spanish speaking residents of the United States nor of their impact on the US English speaking population at large.
There is a far greater impact on a society when laws are newly drafted & specifically state that a country or regional jurisdiction has two or more official languages, formally becomes bilingual or declares it's sole official language. In such cases, new laws get proposed and perhaps drafted where certain groups or cultures then feel disenfranchised where they never felt it before.
People on both sides of this spectrum don't like to feel as if they're having something shoved down their throats in order to accommodate.
Not sure about the above meaning. Are you saying that the US is the only country that compensates for the presence of non-natives ? If that's what you mean, are you saying that other countries don't have immigrants?
No such cases happen on Canadian soil because we have no massive social programs that might be an attraction to immigrants, legal or otherwise
You are correct in the above, as an example, where people are declaring that they won't venture out of their way to a certain region to make a political point and no such point will ever be known.
If the US ever has a law declaring itself as having two official languages and all that it entails then it will be a different story for you to tell.
I just wish to clarify your facts or my limited understanding of them and for that I'm truly sorry.
Are you saying that all regions on the island of Montreal have a large French population ?
The good ole US of A doesn't even have 1 official language but it has a lot of so called experts telling the rest of the world how to do things the right way.
You think that's maybe why there is so much resentment towards the Americans?
Maybe the Americans should worry more about their own federal budget and housing problems and leave the rest of the world to make their own mistakes? Just saying !
You think that's maybe why there is so much resentment towards the Americans?
Maybe the Americans should worry more about their own federal budget and housing problems and leave the rest of the world to make their own mistakes? Just saying !
According to this demographic survey done in 2006, there are about three areas in Montreal larger than 6 square blocks with a population where "more than 35% have English as the only known official language". The study I have found has no numbers showing "native language". Go to section 7, on page 25.
By the way, what I said about restaurants has nothing to do with proving a point. I go to a restaurant to have a good time. This is a personal choice: like I said, I spent 15 years in Toronto, and going to one of those restos is too much for me. If friends ask me to go there I will, it is just not my choice by default. I will not call the language police, ask the employee be dismissed or start lawsuits. It is just not for me.
K
Kansas Frank
As an American citizen, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Washington D.C. is driven my greed and hubris: all elected officials are motivated by power, money and status -- they couldn't care less for Main Street America. American political and military leaders have the same imperial aspirations as the greate nations and civilizations that came before USA: Ancient Greece, Rome, Turkey and Portugual and the modern Spain, the Netherland, UK and France.
As you will recall, conservatives have tried time and again to make English the "official" language of certain states and the US. IMHO, I'm glad those efforts failed.
I love going to Montreal because I get an opportunity to interact with French Canadians, as well as Angelo Canadians and people from other parts of the world.
I'm very glad all Canadians are able to live in relative harmony in Montreal and Quebec, unlike the conflicts that continue to bring misery, death, hatred, killing and mistrust in Israel.
Canadians are some of the nicest people I have ever met. I'm very hopeful and certain the French language and culture, both of which I find beautiful, will forever be a robust (and respected) part of Montreal and Quebec and other provices in Canada.
Merlot, you are perfectly correct. I am French, not english and Sapman is very much aware of that fact. I happen to be posting on a board where the primary language of the majority of the posters is English and I choose to post in that language. Most of the friends I have made on merb are English speaking and if I post something, I want them to be able to read it. If anyone is insulted by that, or takes it as a 'provocation', I really don't give a damn.
Don't fall into the trap that the language zealots, the separatists and their apologists always try to set. They're like magicians and use misdirection very well. Everytime one of these discussions comes up they always point to things that are happening elsewhere in Canada and even at times elsewhere in the world. Or they fall back on the old chestnut of how things used to be here in Montreal. Anything to avoid dealing with the facts and reality of the 21st century. In their eyes, anyone who doesn't support the French language above all others automatically hates French as a whole. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't hate French either as a language or as a group of people. I judge everyone on the basis of who they are, not the language they speak, the colour of their skin or their religion. If I had been born German, I would hate Nazis but that wouldn't mean that I hated all Germans would it?
The facts are that before the separatist Parti Quebecois came to power, Montreal was the financial and business capital of Canada. Since they came to power, and since subsequent Liberal governments have done their best to cater to the French separatist and xenophone base, Montreal has fallen from it's once lofty perch into the gutter.
You only have to take a drive down any Montreal street to see the result of the constant language war here because our streets look like something from a war torn third world country. Our bridges are falling apart, our highways also. Our buildings are falling down upon our heads. We have a fantastic system of water filtration but more water leaks out into the ground than reaches the faucets of the population due to the lack of upkeep. We have excellent higher learning institutions where the best and brightest of the students head for greener pastures as soon as humanly possible after graduation. We have ridiculous traffic laws that have turned our police force into tax collectors because they can't keep raising the taxes any higher so they have to find other ways to finance their bloated administrations.
This situation has cost this province more than can be possibly be imagined.
Sapman, you asked what the rest of Canada thinks about Quebec? I can't speak for them but if I lived outside Quebec I would think that Quebec was a province of small minded, insecure people with little to hold them together other than their hate for English. Maybe we should have the next referendum be a federal one where the entire country could vote on the future of Quebec in Canada. I have a feeling that the only province that would vote to have Quebec remain in Canada would be Quebec itself. The rest of Canada would be more than happy to be rid of the crying child that will never be satisfied no matter what is given to it.
When it comes to anyone who deals with the public in downtown Montreal, especially public servants, they should be functionally bilingual. If I am spending my money, I damn well better be able to get served in the language I want to be served in or I will take my business elsewhere. I won't call the language police or try to sue them, I will vote with my feet and take my money elsewhere where someone knows how to do business properly. But if I am going to the East end for dinner or to do some shopping, I won't exactly expect to be served in English. The opposite applies if I go to a predominantly English area - I won't expect to get exemplary service in French. That's life, deal with it.
And Sap, you're an intelligent person and I know damn well that you are aware that any IT job, especially one that involves development, requires a good knowledge of English. After all, most programming languages are based on English. All the major computer technology companies are based in the US. Maybe you should call Microsoft or Oracle or Apple and tell them that they have to create a new programming language based on French and that they should recode all their sourcecode in that language so that the poor unilingual French IT people of Quebec can get jobs. The de facto language of computer programming and technology is English, as is the language of business and air traffic control. That isn't going to change because Quebec language zealots don't like it.
Don't fall into the trap that the language zealots, the separatists and their apologists always try to set. They're like magicians and use misdirection very well. Everytime one of these discussions comes up they always point to things that are happening elsewhere in Canada and even at times elsewhere in the world. Or they fall back on the old chestnut of how things used to be here in Montreal. Anything to avoid dealing with the facts and reality of the 21st century. In their eyes, anyone who doesn't support the French language above all others automatically hates French as a whole. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't hate French either as a language or as a group of people. I judge everyone on the basis of who they are, not the language they speak, the colour of their skin or their religion. If I had been born German, I would hate Nazis but that wouldn't mean that I hated all Germans would it?
The facts are that before the separatist Parti Quebecois came to power, Montreal was the financial and business capital of Canada. Since they came to power, and since subsequent Liberal governments have done their best to cater to the French separatist and xenophone base, Montreal has fallen from it's once lofty perch into the gutter.
You only have to take a drive down any Montreal street to see the result of the constant language war here because our streets look like something from a war torn third world country. Our bridges are falling apart, our highways also. Our buildings are falling down upon our heads. We have a fantastic system of water filtration but more water leaks out into the ground than reaches the faucets of the population due to the lack of upkeep. We have excellent higher learning institutions where the best and brightest of the students head for greener pastures as soon as humanly possible after graduation. We have ridiculous traffic laws that have turned our police force into tax collectors because they can't keep raising the taxes any higher so they have to find other ways to finance their bloated administrations.
This situation has cost this province more than can be possibly be imagined.
Sapman, you asked what the rest of Canada thinks about Quebec? I can't speak for them but if I lived outside Quebec I would think that Quebec was a province of small minded, insecure people with little to hold them together other than their hate for English. Maybe we should have the next referendum be a federal one where the entire country could vote on the future of Quebec in Canada. I have a feeling that the only province that would vote to have Quebec remain in Canada would be Quebec itself. The rest of Canada would be more than happy to be rid of the crying child that will never be satisfied no matter what is given to it.
When it comes to anyone who deals with the public in downtown Montreal, especially public servants, they should be functionally bilingual. If I am spending my money, I damn well better be able to get served in the language I want to be served in or I will take my business elsewhere. I won't call the language police or try to sue them, I will vote with my feet and take my money elsewhere where someone knows how to do business properly. But if I am going to the East end for dinner or to do some shopping, I won't exactly expect to be served in English. The opposite applies if I go to a predominantly English area - I won't expect to get exemplary service in French. That's life, deal with it.
And Sap, you're an intelligent person and I know damn well that you are aware that any IT job, especially one that involves development, requires a good knowledge of English. After all, most programming languages are based on English. All the major computer technology companies are based in the US. Maybe you should call Microsoft or Oracle or Apple and tell them that they have to create a new programming language based on French and that they should recode all their sourcecode in that language so that the poor unilingual French IT people of Quebec can get jobs. The de facto language of computer programming and technology is English, as is the language of business and air traffic control. That isn't going to change because Quebec language zealots don't like it.
Regardless, your point is quite clear: if you can't speak French, march on down to the welfare office or grab a squeegee. You are not welcome to work in Quebec.
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I just remembered...a few weeks ago I was at Cleos and I met a very pretty and sexy unilingual Anglo girl from Alberta. I had a pleasant time having her dance for me and it never occured to me to place a call to the OLF and complain or to file a lawsuit against the club. I'm kicking myself now because I could probably have made a few grand out of the deal or at least free dances for life. Maybe the city could have used this to get their wish and close down the club because they had the nerve to provide service in English only.
Sap, have you ever turned away an escort because she didn't speak French? Or do you only deal with French girls? If you accept an English only girl, wouldn't that be hypocritical?
Sap, have you ever turned away an escort because she didn't speak French? Or do you only deal with French girls? If you accept an English only girl, wouldn't that be hypocritical?
Demagoguery at its' finest: we are talking about people serving the public here. There are requirements, but it seems language requirements are taboo, why?
Besides, change "French" for "English", and "Quebec" for "rest of Canada" and then your quote is quite accurate.
Thank you for pouring oil on the fire...
I must beg ignorance as far as this map is concerned as I can't determine which municipality is which therefore I can't dispute it stated findings. Where did the City of Montreal get their stats? I suspect is that NDG, Hampstead, Westmount, Montreal West & Cote St Luc are 35+%. But who cares what the percentage is anyhow.
The very statement that you can't or its too much for you, are reasons that I fail to comprehend. If I used your logic, I wouldn't have been able to stay and enjoy a great meal in the Chinese restaurant that I mentioned because how the hell could this poor immigrant have the nerve to not speak one of my two official languages?
All I see is that you are denying yourself something. Or if enough people don't go such an establishment who may employ a unilingual Anglo, the condition would be such that no unilingual Anglo from the rest of Canada would chose to relocate here due to lack of work.
If that is your intended goal, to oust all unilingual Anglos remaining here or how about those young unilingual Anglos willing to relocate and pay taxes here, then why not just say it outright. Or do you wish to have it done by the state on your behalf, while giving off the appearance that you remain a nice guy.
Well we didn't start the fire....
And once again, there's that attempt at redirection.
No, never
. These are private matters, not public lol.Another thing, don't lump me in with separatists: I only know from experience the pressure the French language is under in North America, and have decided to do my part to make sure it is not drowned forever here.
I also never said I resented the fact IT jobs require English. I was just saying that if IT jobs require English, why can't a resto waiter job have a French prerequisite?
Tech, relax! You are bilingual anyway :thumb:. I am ALL for francophones being bilingual, learning English, getting good jobs and learning the vast and varied English cultures. But I am puzzled why so many of you find English unilingualism a norm here in Quebec. The facilities for learning French here are numerous. Seemingly, only the will is lacking.
they can learn French... or chose one of the many jobs where dealing with the general public is not an issue. And "James", it would be really nice of you tell us who you really are
.The thing that you , and many others, fail to understand is that you attract more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. No one likes to be forced to do anything, especially when it is at the expense of their own identity. You can force a dog to obey you by beating it with a stick, but one day you will hit it one time to many and it will rip your throat out. The more French is forced on those who are not French, the more it will be resented by them. Why should an American moving here for work have to see his children give up their identity by being forced to be educated in French? And no, I do not believe that English unilingualism should be a norm here. Nor do I believe that French unlingualism should be the norm either. Why should anyone limit themselves? If they do, it is their loss. No one should be forced to be what they are not. That simply doesn't work and history has proven that time and time again. And there are also those who are too old or just not capable of learning another language. It does happen you know? Why should they be punished or made outcasts?
If the French language does die in North America, it is because French Quebecers are not having enough children to ensure it's survival. There is no one to blame but ourselves. If we do not replenish and grow our numbers then our language and culture does not deserve to survive. We cannot blame it on others who wish to preserve their own culture and identity.
If the French language does die in North America, it is because French Quebecers are not having enough children to ensure it's survival. There is no one to blame but ourselves. If we do not replenish and grow our numbers then our language and culture does not deserve to survive. We cannot blame it on others who wish to preserve their own culture and identity.
Perhaps the Anglophones you referred to are also able to speak French. It's just that their families and most of their friends are also Anglophones, so they speak English on the phone. Doesn't mean they can't speak French. I'm from the US so my knowledge of Montreal is limited. But based on my limited observation, most Anglophones in Mtl are also able to speak French. And if one is a unilingual Anglophone, one would have a real big problem getting a job in Mtl. How is it even possible to have a good professional job in Mtl without speaking French (IT or science related jobs don't count)?
I thought it's the opposite. I thought "bilingualism" meant Anglophones must speak French. No?
I was responding to Techman (post no. 20) who was asking why the National anthem was started in french first at every government occasion.
K
Kansas Frank
While this tread got heated at times, the discussion has remained reasonable and highly informative for an outsider like me. Techman's insightful eleoquance is much appreciated :thumb: and thank you very much for writing in English (saves me from having to us Google Translate :lol.
As an aside, when I was in Nice, France, I was thinking to myself that one day when I have a family, I would love to send my children there in the Summers so they can learn French and Italty and I would join them to tour Western Europe.
As a lawyer who have represented both (corporate and indiviudal) defendants and plaintiffs, I applaud Michel and Lynda Thibodeau. Here, the messengers might not be saints but the message is very laudable on principles.
I'm certain some of us remember that lady who sued McDonald's in the US after she spilled hot coffee on herself in the drive-through. Then, everyone treated that case as a joke. Since her law suit, restaurants and coffee shops changed their operating procedures, for the better.
I prefer the company of French Canadian SP's -- despite the language barrier, they are very polite and respectful (and take pity on me that I don't speak French). :thumb::thumb: And every French person I've met in Montreal has been very kind, polite and friendly towards me.
And I hope Montreal regains its prominence once again; it's a beautiful place. The downtown offices are very nice, modern and the architecture is world-class.
.As an aside, when I was in Nice, France, I was thinking to myself that one day when I have a family, I would love to send my children there in the Summers so they can learn French and Italty and I would join them to tour Western Europe.
As a lawyer who have represented both (corporate and indiviudal) defendants and plaintiffs, I applaud Michel and Lynda Thibodeau. Here, the messengers might not be saints but the message is very laudable on principles.
I'm certain some of us remember that lady who sued McDonald's in the US after she spilled hot coffee on herself in the drive-through. Then, everyone treated that case as a joke. Since her law suit, restaurants and coffee shops changed their operating procedures, for the better.
I prefer the company of French Canadian SP's -- despite the language barrier, they are very polite and respectful (and take pity on me that I don't speak French). :thumb::thumb: And every French person I've met in Montreal has been very kind, polite and friendly towards me.
And I hope Montreal regains its prominence once again; it's a beautiful place. The downtown offices are very nice, modern and the architecture is world-class.
