Air canada loses lawsuit over stewardess failing to speak in "mother tongue"

[Conan]

The thing that you , and many others, fail to understand is that you attract more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. No one likes to be forced to do anything, especially when it is at the expense of their own identity. You can force a dog to obey you by beating it with a stick, but one day you will hit it one time to many and it will rip your throat out. The more French is forced on those who are not French, the more it will be resented by them. Why should an American moving here for work have to see his children give up their identity by being forced to be educated in French?

I could not agree more. When I came to Canada in 1991, I first moved to Toronto and hated it. Three months later I moved to Montreal, fully determined to learn French and shortly after I started taking a French class. In the meantime I was experiencing incredible amount of unfriendly vibes both at work and in my very French neigborhood, just because I didn't speak French. A guy at work who spoke only French to me went ballistic when I asked him if he could speak English to me until I learn French to make sure I don't mess up the stuff I was supposed to work on. I found out he had lived in Toronto for 5 years and spoke very good English, yet he totally refused to use it with me. A lady at the local post office wouldn't speak English, even though Canada Post is a federal establishment. Anytime I asked a bus driver for directions, I got a sour face and response in French. I never understood the silliness of the Bill 101, how a sign in English threatens the French language, but a sign in Greek or Chinese does not. Why is it that as an American I could not send my kids to an English school? Hearing stories of other anglophones who spoke French and yet were not accepted because they had an accent. I fully understand the need and desire to protect the French language, but it can be done in a more balanced way. Eventually I came to the point where I realized that this place will never feel like home, and I went back to the States. I do believe that if one wants to live in Quebec, it is in his/her interest to learn French, but I just wasn't gonna be bullied into it.

I left at the time when many young people were proud not to speak English and totally refused to learn it. But now I laugh because the anglos did get their revenge. This thing called Internet came along and all of a sudden thousands of people realize that it does pay off to speak English. From what I hear, the enrollment in English classes skyrocketed in the last few years.

 

[gugu]

Don't fall into the trap that the language zealots, the separatists and their apologists always try to set. They're like magicians and use misdirection very well.

Let’s see.

The facts are that before the separatist Parti Quebecois came to power, Montreal was the financial and business capital of Canada. Since they came to power, and since subsequent Liberal governments have done their best to cater to the French separatist and xenophone base, Montreal has fallen from it's once lofty perch into the gutter.

The decline of Montreal started more than 10 years before the Parti Québécois took power.

You only have to take a drive down any Montreal street to see the result of the constant language war here because our streets look like something from a war torn third world country.

Hum… street conditions as a result of language war.

Our bridges are falling apart, our highways also. Our buildings are falling down upon our heads.

Mainly due to FLQ bombings I guess…

We have a fantastic system of water filtration but more water leaks out into the ground than reaches the faucets of the population due to the lack of upkeep.

I was able to get a few drops in my faucet last time I went to Montréal. The damn seperatists wanted the anglos to dry off. Of course the French people got their water from their cousins living outside Montréal. (the true figure is 30%, a lot less than a cities like Boston (USA) and London (UK), both terrible, unattractive dumps).

We have excellent higher learning institutions where the best and brightest of the students head for greener pastures as soon as humanly possible after graduation.

I heard it causes traffic jams at Dorval.

We have ridiculous traffic laws that have turned our police force into tax collectors because they can't keep raising the taxes any higher so they have to find other ways to finance their bloated administrations.

Where as Toronto’s municipal finances are perfectly sane.

The rest of Canada would be more than happy to be rid of the crying child that will never be satisfied no matter what is given to it.

Of course, that was the main message of the Unity rally in October 1995.

What I like about federalist zealots is that you’ll never find any trap in their arguments.

Techman, your arguments are laughable. You shit on virtually all the Québec institutions and you look pretty much like a guy who has lost his identity. 90% of the Francophones in Québec believe that law 101 is a necessity (Angus Reid, February, 2011). You’ll have to work hard to make them change their mind. And you will have a hard time if you bring back to their memory all the “coup de la brinks” of the 1970.

Why should an American moving here for work have to see his children give up their identity by being forced to be educated in French?

You keep spreading that nonsense over and over as if learning French meant losing his identity for anyone that is not of a French origin.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Wherein the language zealots will even fuck with a young woman's health.

MONTREAL - I think Montreal is one of the top places to visit in the summer: fabulous, beautiful, charming, etc. But to live here is a different story.

I am originally from Toronto but have lived here more than 10 years and I am finally hitting my breaking point.

I am six months pregnant and work at the McGill University Health Centre. I want to make this clear: I am fully bilingual.

In the centre where I work, I can say 95 per cent of the time, the first question asked is, "Do you prefer English or French?" At least, I can say I offer this option. If it is a third language I can speak, I will offer this as well. If certain foreign doctors are unable to speak French, we promptly get someone who can clearly communicate to them the patients' concerns and questions.

I am finally in a position where I am the patient and no longer the health-care worker. Thankfully, the hospital I am delivering at is more or less fully bilingual - it is one in the English sector. And again, repeatedly I am asked if I prefer French or English, regardless of the native language of the person offering me the service. I appreciate and respect this. If the person has difficulty in English, I will put aside my preference and accommodate him or her simply because he or she was courteous enough to offer this.

But I have heard countless first-hand accounts about patients in French-sector hospitals not being able to communicate concerns and worries with anyone.

At my local Montreal CLSC, I have repeatedly spoken English to the people there and been responded to in French. As I persist, the person (more than one) has further insisted on responding in French. I am spoken to in slow, loud tones as if I am deaf and stupid, as opposed to them simply trying to say that one sentence in English. I have had countless other incidents with other professional government associations here, but this is the one that really hits home.

I understand that in private businesses there is no guarantee. But a CLSC provides an essential service and I believe this is completely unacceptable. As far as I know, Quebec is still a province in Canada. And the term bilingual suggests the presence of two languages.

Why is McKibbin's pub given heat over Irish posters? Why is a fully bilingual man awarded several thousand dollars in court because he was not offered Coke or 7Up in French? Why am I harassed at a downtown Tim Hortons because I choose to order a large coffee instead of "un grand café"? And I am repeatedly ignored when I request that I be communicated with in English in several government organizations because, frankly, I still am more comfortable dealing with my health issues in English.

I feel so helpless in a province where "bilingual" actually means: "I'm going to ignore the fact that you just said you prefer English but if you are English I will sue you if you do not greet me in French."

 

[sapman99]

Yes, service in the two languages

I have just read the Gazette article and I am appalled: I agree that when it comes to health, it is paramount to be able to service your entire population. I know for a fact that in Toronto, hospitals and police departments go out of their way to have staff, or interpreters, to enable to communicate with the countless ethnic groups present in that city.

One thing must be clear here: I (and I hope most of the people here who advocate being served in French if they so choose) have never said that the English should be denied services in their own language. Of any kind. I am all for bilingualism, but it goes both ways .

Asking that French be one of the service language options and wishing to deny service in English are two totally separate things. One makes sense, the other is despicable.

I deplore the situation as presented in the Gazette but I have not seen evidence of "language zealots" of this particular kind in this thread. Have you ?

 

[Guido]

>>> EDITED BY MOD 11: Useless quote removed. Next time, the entire post will get removed. <<<

Yes the "language zealots" can be found the moment that you have to deal with government employess at the municipal,provencial, and federal level. Unlike the American tourists ,that mainly deal with people in the service industry and therefore have a distorted view of everyday life in quebec society,anglophones as a group are treated as second class citiszens.

An anglophone that speaks french with a trace of an english accent will often be looked down on for not being a "pure wool".

The demise of Montreal started just after Expo 67 and can be contributed in part to "the quiet revolution", the hatred and terror brought about by the FLQ (the kidnappers and murders fled to Cuba only to return later to Quebec as national herors), and the militants of the quebec labour unions attacking the english establishments.

To be fair ,the hard liners on both sides are in the minority, but they are the vocal ones that know how to sway the masses.

 

[x.Minie]

It's funny how every poster claims to know when precisely began the perceived decline of Montréal. I'm counting the minutes before someone blames the potholes on the Patrick Roy trade.

 

[Guido]

And then there are the clowns , who have nothing to contribute to the discussion, just foolishness.

Oh well it takes all kinds to make a world.

 

[x.Minie]

The insult was uncalled-for and unnecessary. Personally I value more people who admit their ignorance over the others who presomptuously spread false knowledge. Too much bad blood in this thread. I'm out.

 

[Mod 11]

1 week vacation awarded. This thread is staying surprisingly civilized, despite some little hits. Please keep going good!

Thanks

 

[CLOUD 500]

I have to call you out on this one. I work in an environment where most my customers have salaries in the 6 digits range and, even in Montréal, a lot of them are unilingual anglophones or don't bother speaking any French. This is easy to confirm, all you have to do is go to high end restaurants around Place Ville-Marie and the downtown core. You will see a huge amount of expensive suits who don't speak French. Go in the underground parking of most hi rise buildings in Montréal and you will see Mercedez, Lexus, Audi, BMW. Sit around between 4 and 5PM and listen to the people picking up these cars while speaking on the phone. You will ear English most of the time.

Not sure about that. After all we live in Quebec and there is Bill 101 and the OLF. All businesses have to operate in French in this province. Furthermore the majority of the population is Francophone and even though downtown has a lot of anglophone people a business will be loosing so many customers if they have uniligual English speaking employees. It just would make no sense. Just because the suits are speaking English does not mean they do not speak French. In my case I speak French but speak English most of the time unless I come across someone who only speaks French then I will speak French. As for the restaurants again same argument they there are just too many French customers. Besides if that were true the restaurants would go bankrupt as French people like the guy who sued the airport would be suing the restaurants. Lol! Restaurants can hire uniligual English employees but obviously they would not be dealing with the public. They would be working in the kitchen, maintenance, etc...

Go in stores around the same area and you can find unilingual English clerks without much difficulties. Eaton center is excellent for that. Ask for a manager and you have a good chance to face another unilingual anglophone.

Not sure which world you live in. But I have been shopping at the downtown Eaton Center for years and never come across a unilingual English speaking clerk or manager. In fact most of the time I enter a store I am greeted in French the majority of the time.

I have other extremely good examples I won't mention since it would reveal my line of work but, suffice to say, lots of well-paying jobs in Montréal requires bilingualism (read "French must speak English") and most companies will have no operational issues hiring an English-only employee, even if they have published policies stating bilingualism is a must. The English-only will be summoned to take French lesson if anybody complain but, most time, there will be no time limit in the hope the plaintiff will forget and sanctions will not get applied.

I never heard of a professional job where no French is required. There might be some but those are in the minority. One can get away with it by operating a business. A doctor, accountant, lawyer, etc... has to speak French. No doubt about it. I know of countless people after graduating moved to Ontario just because the companies did not want to hire them based on their lack of French. Remember Bill 101. Even if the companies deal with a lot of English clients Quebec law states that a business has to operate in French.

Now go in factories along hwy 40 in St-Laurent. Stay in the parking lot. You will ear French.

You misunderstood my sentence. Again as most of the population is French for sure you will hear French. But whatever English speaking uniligual people there are will most likely be employed in these factories as French is not required. It is all manual labor and it also depends on the location. Sometimes management do not like to hire uniligual English speaking employees.

 

[CLOUD 500]

I have just read the Gazette article and I am appalled: I agree that when it comes to health, it is paramount to be able to service your entire population. I know for a fact that in Toronto, hospitals and police departments go out of their way to have staff, or interpreters, to enable to communicate with the countless ethnic groups present in that city.

Here is the key thing you mentioned. In Toronto the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) has a customer service line that provides services in several different languages. But in Montreal try calling them and speak in English most of the time they just refuse. When I get in a bus I am just afraid to ask the driver anything in English as sometimes they get so mad. I have encountered so many people here that get so angry just because I speak in English. But in Ottawa or Toronto I doubt anyone will get mad if someone spoke to them in French most likely case is that they would not understand as they do not speak French.

One thing must be clear here: I (and I hope most of the people here who advocate being served in French if they so choose) have never said that the English should be denied services in their own language. Of any kind. I am all for bilingualism, but it goes both ways .

For sure I agree. But many times it is denied in Quebec by those xenophobic separatists. It is something that I have gotten used to. So when I hear guys like the one who sued a airport for being greeted in English that gets me really mad especially since he is fluently bilingual. What is the big difference unless he just hates English. I speak both languages if I get greeted in French no problem. But because French is enforced on me and I hear stories like this I now demand service in English. And why not? French people who are bilingual do the same thing.

 

[Kansas Frank]

I've been a very lucky tourist in Montreal.

After following this thread, it now makes better senses to me why many Canadians in Toronto looked at me funny when I asked them about me (who speaks no French) visting Montreal -- that was before my first trip to Montreal. After having been to Montreal many times, I enjoy it more than TO.

I wonder what the die-heart Francophone think about learning Mandarin for purposes of commercial dealings with Middle Kingdom -- China. I read stories in the American media about how parents are having their children learn Mandarin beginning in elementary schools (at least the rich folks) so they'll have a leg up when they start working. There was a frenzy to learn Japanese when Japan, Inc. was all the rage in the 1980's.

Among my American friends, speaking and writing French proficiently or fluently is seen as very highly intelligent, sophisticated and cultured.

 

[gugu]

Here is the key thing you mentioned. In Toronto the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) has a customer service line that provides services in several different languages. But in Montreal try calling them and speak in English most of the time they just refuse. When I get in a bus I am just afraid to ask the driver anything in English as sometimes they get so mad. I have encountered so many people here that get so angry just because I speak in English. But in Ottawa or Toronto I doubt anyone will get mad if someone spoke to them in French most likely case is that they would not understand as they do not speak French.

Of course, it is a well know fact that it is much easier to get serviced in french by the TTC than it is to be serviced in English by the STM. For instance, compare the english website of the STM here with the french version of the TCC website here.

 

[Merlot]

I wonder what the die-heart Francophone think about learning Mandarin for purposes of commercial dealings with Middle Kingdom -- China. I read stories in the American media about how parents are having their children learn Mandarin beginning in elementary schools (at least the rich folks) so they'll have a leg up when they start working. There was a frenzy to learn Japanese when Japan, Inc. was all the rage in the 1980's.

Among my American friends, speaking and writing French proficiently or fluently is seen as very highly intelligent, sophisticated and cultured.

Hello KF,

True. I've always considered being able to speak a variety of languages to be a mark sophistication, culture, and wisdom. So the exchanges in this thread are both illogical and disheartening. Some here have tried to say outsiders can't understand the French versus English situation so they should stay out of it. That notion itself demonstrates the problem because it's quite "uninformed", to be more gentle. The real issue here is control versus cooperation, the same as any time two conflicting coexisting entities of many many kinds feel challenged or threatened by one another to survive and prosper be it cultural, political, racial, ideological or whatever. Only the particulars might be different.

It's truly ironic that in the origins of extreme cultural contrast during the colonial period in the Americas it was the French who proved themselves particularly adept at finding a middle ground of coexistence between themselves and the Native Americans like the Hurons and others, as hard as it was, more successfully than any other Europeans.

(See: The Middle Ground: Indians, Empires, and Republics in the Great Lakes Region, 1650-1815 (Studies in North American Indian History)

It's not just the U.S., people in many countries are learning other languages because of changes in world economic markets and political necessity or the necessity of practical coexistence with large segments of minority peoples within their own countries. Many countries are doing this because it's sensible as a necessity for their own enrichment and survival. Even the Japanese, closed and isolated on their islands for hundreds of years, a people whose population might be one of the most "Pure Laine" and proud of that in the world, are learning other languages because of the sense of it to their own best interests.

Yet what I have read in this thread shows little that is sensible. Bus drivers, store clerks, waiters don't do their jobs because of cultural feuds despite the fact it can only hurt the business that supports them. Worst of all I read about the same nonsensical attitudes where it can deprive the sick and desperately needy in hospitals where medical professionals who should be above any pettiness still flaunt the same xenophobic arrogance. When it goes so far that the calling of medicine isn't above the feud then the situation is one of endemic bi-cultural sickness...whatever the reasons.

nuts, :help:

Merlot

 

[anon_vlad]

Of course, it is a well know fact that it is much easier to get serviced in french by the TTC than it is to be serviced in English by the STM. For instance, compare the english website of the STM here with the french version of the TCC website here.

Toronto is 3% French. Montreal is at least 30% English.

Compare Toronto's French services to Trois Riviere's English services if you want to be fair.

 

[gugu]

Toronto is 3% French. Montreal is at least 30% English.

Compare Toronto's French services to Trois Riviere's English services if you want to be fair.

The service comparison was made by Cloud, not by me. I simply had fun about this guy who pretended that the french service was better at the TTC than the english service at the STM.

He has an attitude problem so typical of many narrow minded people: they get hurt by a counterpart narrow minded public service employee who refuses to address them in english, and they decide that from now on, they will make it a question of principal to address everybody in english:

I speak both languages if I get greeted in French no problem. But because French is enforced on me and I hear stories like this I now demand service in English.

By the way, there are more french speaking people in Toronto than the total population of Trois-Rivières. The spirit of the canadian approach on bilinguism, with some exceptions like Air Canada, is that services should be provided in both languages where the numbers justify it, not the proportion of official language speakers.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Your facts are uncoordinated

Of course, it is a well know fact that it is much easier to get serviced in french by the TTC than it is to be serviced in English by the STM. For instance, compare the english website of the STM here with the french version of the TCC website here.

There is a very good reason for that. As per the Toronto demographics in 2006 only 1.4% of the population have a mother tongue that is French. French is the 12th most spoken language in Toronto. Now let us compare that to Montreal in which in 2006 18.5% of the population has a mother tongue that is English. English is the second most spoken language in Montreal. Based on these figure it is pretty much pointless to have the TTC website in French? Do you not think? It would be used by only 1.4% of the population. Lol!!! At least close to the Ontario-Quebec border on the Ontario side they have bilingual road signs. Can the same be said for Quebec?

 

[CLOUD 500]

The service comparison was made by Cloud, not by me. I simply had fun about this guy who pretended that the french service was better at the TTC than the english service at the STM.

He has an attitude problem so typical of many narrow minded people: they get hurt by a counterpart narrow minded public service employee who refuses to address them in English, and they decide that from now on, they will make it a question of principal to address everybody in English:

It seems you described yourself. Lol!!! You are a funny guy. You obviously did not read my post when I made the comparison. You can call TTC customer service and get serviced in many languages but this is not the case in Quebec. Try to go to Laval or Longueuil for that matter they refuse to service in English. To be frank I really do not care as I speak both languages. But it is xenophobic people like you who seem to believe that it is ok to have French enforced on people. The guy who sued the airport for being greeted in English you obviously agree with that but if the STM refuses to answer me in English you basically are saying too bad for me. Everything is a two way road. You cannot apply a set of rules to make it convenient for you. It just does not work that way.

Oh yes please continue to amuse me with your funny comments. HaHaHa!!! I am having so much reading your funny posts. Lololololllllllllllll

Check this link on the TTC website and look for multilingual services-> http://www3.ttc.ca/Contact_Us/index.jsp

By the way, there are more french speaking people in Toronto than the total population of Trois-Rivières. The spirit of the canadian approach on bilinguism, with some exceptions like Air Canada, is that services should be provided in both languages where the numbers justify it, not the proportion of official language speakers.

You are right about that and I agree that places like Three-Rivers does not need services in English. Ottawa has a large French population and services should be offered in both languages. But here is my problem with your thinking? If I get refused English service in Montreal then by what you are saying I should go sue the company just like the guy who sued the airport? Montreal is a bilingual city and servicing in both languages should be mandatory. Furthermore road signs should be bilingual also but it is not. You get so many tourists coming here and most of them do not speak any French. But it is interesting to note that road signs on the Ontario side of the border are bilingual.

 

[gugu]

But it is xenophobic people like you

Mods,

I simply do not accept that statement.

I feel hurt as a French Canadian and Quebecer, who communicate with you guys in English and have shown total respect for all people of any origin on this forum from my beginning in 2005, to be treated that way. That is an insult.

I pursue extremists of both sides in this debate. They are responsible for the entire fuck up on the forum and in day-to-day life. Cloud happens to be one of them. I attack him on his positions and, as an ethno paranoid (that is what extremists on both sides are), he accuses me of being xenophobic.

I have tremendous disagreement with Techman on this question. He is harsh, so am I with him. He uses the word xenophobic more than anyone else here. But at least he has the decency of not using it to attack individuals.

So, Mod, if this accusation stays on line, I request permission in all fairness, to answer his post drawing from the same lexicon.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Mods,
I feel hurt as a French Canadian and Quebecer, who communicate with you guys in English and have shown total respect for all people of any origin on this forum from my beginning in 2005, to be treated that way. That is an insult.

I pursue extremists of both sides in this debate. They are responsible for the entire fuck up on the forum and in day-to-day life. Cloud happens to be one of them. I attack him on his positions and, as an ethno paranoid (that is what extremists on both sides are), he accuses me of being xenophobic.

I never attacked you with terms like this. You were the one who started this by calling me narrow minded and also that I have an attitude problem. I never once insulted you. You started insulting me. Before your insults I stated my opinion in a civil way. Furthermore you spoke about me in the third person which I consider very rude. Look at your posts. What else can I say about it? It sounds xenophobic. Based on your posts it seems you do not like English very much. You call me ethno paranoid? Lol! You are the one expressing intolerance not me. I resent what Quebec does which is why I do the same as them. I demand to be serviced in English. It is my right just as you put it is the the right of Francophones to be serviced in French.

Anyhow the difference between the xenophobic separatists and people like me is that you can post in French if you wish. I have no problem with that. But as you noticed there are many American posters who do not speak French. But on the other hand xenophobic separatists would never want me to speak or write in English they would enforce French on me. So you tell me who is narrow minded and intolerant?