I always find it funny when I think of all the english speaking people bashing Québec for its language laws... but then some of the same people were among the first to want to put a halt to/ control the visually dominant signs of chinese language in Vancouver in the mid 90's...
Air canada loses lawsuit over stewardess failing to speak in "mother tongue"
- Thread starter StefanoUS
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I always find it funny when I think of all the english speaking people bashing Québec for its language laws... but then some of the same people were among the first to want to put a halt to/ control the visually dominant signs of chinese language in Vancouver in the mid 90's...
Bonjour Cloud.
Answer: no choice!
J'ai lu beaucoup de choses sur l'histoire du Québec récemment. En général, les Américains n'ont pas d'étude sur le Canada beaucoup. Simplement dit, le Canada apparaît comme un moderne, pacifique, pays ami avec quelques problèmes. Même moi, je savais beaucoup plus sur le Canada entre la découverte et 1815, plutôt que plus tard. Jusqu'à ce que, j'ai commencé à étudier l'histoire de ma famille au Québec, et la lecture sur Merb, je ne savais pas beaucoup sur conditons sociale là-bas. Pourtant rien n'a été surprenant. Quand un groupe ethnique défaites autre dans une guerre, les résultats sont inévitables. Comme d'habitude il ya domination, privation des droits civiques, et un processus pour diminuer l'autre groupe ethnique, peu importe comment subtile ou sévère.
Les problèmes culturels au Québec d'aujourd'hui s'est produit pour deux raisons fondamentales, l'une naturelle, l'un par choix. Naturellement, lorsque le nombre beaucoup plus important de l'anglais au Canada peut se déplacer dans le Québec, les immigrants parlant anglais arrivent, et les Français ont de reproduction faibles les Français vont perdre la proportion de la population dans leur propre province. Mais, les Anglais aussi choisir de dominer, priver, et de diminuer les Français. Les plaintes faites sur Merb par les Anglais sur les abus par le français au Québec, sont très similaires à les plaintes par les français à l'encontre de l'anglais pour des centaines d'années.
Les Français tentent de protéger leur culture et leur langue. Ils ont le droit de faire cela. Les tactiques qu'ils utilisent sont sévères. Mais l'histoire canadienne démontre que les Anglais n'étaient pas disposés à coopérer pour faire face aux préoccupations françaises. La situation aurait été différente aujourd'hui, peut-être plus coopératif. Mais, l'accord porte arrière, et l'échec de l'Accord du lac Meech (dont le français au Québec originement trouvé acceptable), prouvé le peuple française au Québec a dû prendre le contrôle de leur propre situation.
Franchement, je pense que le Canada et les Anglais sont chanceux d'avoir le projet de loi 101 au Québec. Il a probablement fait de demeurer au Canada plus acceptable pour les Français. Sans il, les Séparatistes sans doute gagner le vote en 1995, et de créer une crise nationale.
Si la législature de la législature de la Saskatchewan a abrogé la loi de protéger la langue française, peut-être le cours de l'histoire aurait été différente. Maintenant, je doute qu'il y aura jamais être une solution agréable pour les deux côtés. Oui, les Français ont été contestées par l'évolution démographique naturelle qui n'etait pas la faute des Anglais. Mais, les Anglais refusé de coopérer et d'approuver l'Accord du lac Meech quand il a été possible de trouver des compromis. Après cela, le français avait peu de choix autre que de s'aider eux-mêmes. C'est leur droit de survivre. Non, je ne pense pas que le projet de loi 101 est juste ou droite. Mais les deux parties a échoué à trouver une meilleure solution. Sans cela, il n'y avait pas le choix.
I have been reading a lot about the history of Quebec recently. Generally, Americans do not study about Canada much. Simply said, Canada seems like a modern, peaceful, friendly country with few problems. Even I knew a lot more about Canada between discovery and 1815, rather than later. Until, I started studying my family history in Quebec, and reading on Merb, I did not know much about social conditions there. Still nothing has been surprising. When one ethnic group defeats another in war, the results are inevitable. As usual there is dominance, disenfranchisement, and a process to diminish the other ethnic group, no matter how subtle or severe.
The cultural problems in Quebec today happened for two basic reasons, one natural, one by choice. Naturally, when the much larger number of English in Canada can move into Quebec, English speaking immigrants arrive, and the French have low reproduction the French will lose population proportion in their own province. But, the English also choose to dominate, disenfranchise, and diminish the French. The complaints made on Merb by the English about abuse by the French in Quebec, are very similiar to the compliants the French made against the English for hundreds of years.
The French are trying to protect their culture and language. They have the right to do that. The tactics they are using are severe. But Canadian history demonstrates the English were unwilling to cooperate to deal with French concerns. The situation might have been different today, maybe more cooperative. But, the Back-Door deal, and the failure of the Meech Lake Accord (which the French in Quebec originally found acceptable), proved the French people in Quebec had to take control of their own situation.
Frankly, I think Canada and the English are lucky to have Bill 101 in Quebec. It probably made staying in Canada more acceptable to the French. Without it, the Separatists probably win the vote in 1995, and create a national crisis.
If the Saskatchewan legislature abrogated the law protecting the French language, perhaps the direction of history would have been different. Now, I doubt there will ever be a solution pleasing both sides. Yes, the French were challenged by natural population changes that were not the fault of the English. But, the English failed to cooperate and approve the Meech Lake Accord when it was possible to find compromise. After this the French had few choices other than to help themselves. It's their right to survive. No I don't think Bill 101 is fair or right. But both sides failed to find a better solution. Without that, there was no choice.
Cheers,
Merlot
Answer: no choice!
J'ai lu beaucoup de choses sur l'histoire du Québec récemment. En général, les Américains n'ont pas d'étude sur le Canada beaucoup. Simplement dit, le Canada apparaît comme un moderne, pacifique, pays ami avec quelques problèmes. Même moi, je savais beaucoup plus sur le Canada entre la découverte et 1815, plutôt que plus tard. Jusqu'à ce que, j'ai commencé à étudier l'histoire de ma famille au Québec, et la lecture sur Merb, je ne savais pas beaucoup sur conditons sociale là-bas. Pourtant rien n'a été surprenant. Quand un groupe ethnique défaites autre dans une guerre, les résultats sont inévitables. Comme d'habitude il ya domination, privation des droits civiques, et un processus pour diminuer l'autre groupe ethnique, peu importe comment subtile ou sévère.
Les problèmes culturels au Québec d'aujourd'hui s'est produit pour deux raisons fondamentales, l'une naturelle, l'un par choix. Naturellement, lorsque le nombre beaucoup plus important de l'anglais au Canada peut se déplacer dans le Québec, les immigrants parlant anglais arrivent, et les Français ont de reproduction faibles les Français vont perdre la proportion de la population dans leur propre province. Mais, les Anglais aussi choisir de dominer, priver, et de diminuer les Français. Les plaintes faites sur Merb par les Anglais sur les abus par le français au Québec, sont très similaires à les plaintes par les français à l'encontre de l'anglais pour des centaines d'années.
Les Français tentent de protéger leur culture et leur langue. Ils ont le droit de faire cela. Les tactiques qu'ils utilisent sont sévères. Mais l'histoire canadienne démontre que les Anglais n'étaient pas disposés à coopérer pour faire face aux préoccupations françaises. La situation aurait été différente aujourd'hui, peut-être plus coopératif. Mais, l'accord porte arrière, et l'échec de l'Accord du lac Meech (dont le français au Québec originement trouvé acceptable), prouvé le peuple française au Québec a dû prendre le contrôle de leur propre situation.
Franchement, je pense que le Canada et les Anglais sont chanceux d'avoir le projet de loi 101 au Québec. Il a probablement fait de demeurer au Canada plus acceptable pour les Français. Sans il, les Séparatistes sans doute gagner le vote en 1995, et de créer une crise nationale.
Si la législature de la législature de la Saskatchewan a abrogé la loi de protéger la langue française, peut-être le cours de l'histoire aurait été différente. Maintenant, je doute qu'il y aura jamais être une solution agréable pour les deux côtés. Oui, les Français ont été contestées par l'évolution démographique naturelle qui n'etait pas la faute des Anglais. Mais, les Anglais refusé de coopérer et d'approuver l'Accord du lac Meech quand il a été possible de trouver des compromis. Après cela, le français avait peu de choix autre que de s'aider eux-mêmes. C'est leur droit de survivre. Non, je ne pense pas que le projet de loi 101 est juste ou droite. Mais les deux parties a échoué à trouver une meilleure solution. Sans cela, il n'y avait pas le choix.
I have been reading a lot about the history of Quebec recently. Generally, Americans do not study about Canada much. Simply said, Canada seems like a modern, peaceful, friendly country with few problems. Even I knew a lot more about Canada between discovery and 1815, rather than later. Until, I started studying my family history in Quebec, and reading on Merb, I did not know much about social conditions there. Still nothing has been surprising. When one ethnic group defeats another in war, the results are inevitable. As usual there is dominance, disenfranchisement, and a process to diminish the other ethnic group, no matter how subtle or severe.
The cultural problems in Quebec today happened for two basic reasons, one natural, one by choice. Naturally, when the much larger number of English in Canada can move into Quebec, English speaking immigrants arrive, and the French have low reproduction the French will lose population proportion in their own province. But, the English also choose to dominate, disenfranchise, and diminish the French. The complaints made on Merb by the English about abuse by the French in Quebec, are very similiar to the compliants the French made against the English for hundreds of years.
The French are trying to protect their culture and language. They have the right to do that. The tactics they are using are severe. But Canadian history demonstrates the English were unwilling to cooperate to deal with French concerns. The situation might have been different today, maybe more cooperative. But, the Back-Door deal, and the failure of the Meech Lake Accord (which the French in Quebec originally found acceptable), proved the French people in Quebec had to take control of their own situation.
Frankly, I think Canada and the English are lucky to have Bill 101 in Quebec. It probably made staying in Canada more acceptable to the French. Without it, the Separatists probably win the vote in 1995, and create a national crisis.
If the Saskatchewan legislature abrogated the law protecting the French language, perhaps the direction of history would have been different. Now, I doubt there will ever be a solution pleasing both sides. Yes, the French were challenged by natural population changes that were not the fault of the English. But, the English failed to cooperate and approve the Meech Lake Accord when it was possible to find compromise. After this the French had few choices other than to help themselves. It's their right to survive. No I don't think Bill 101 is fair or right. But both sides failed to find a better solution. Without that, there was no choice.
Cheers,
Merlot
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Exactly. But that is what the problem is and you said it. One ethnic group trying to dominate the other. The French wanted their language to dominate all others. There is no where in Canada where English is enforced. It goes with the natural way of things. The strongest and fittest survives. English is the business language of the world. Obviously eventually this is the language that will dominate. But it does not require a law and does not need to be enforced.
If the French language and culture cannot survive without it being enforced then it does not deserve to survive. It is the French people that can preserve their language and culture by teaching it to their children and speaking it among themselves. Chinese immigrants come into this country and I rarely see one which does not speak their language or has lost their culture. Of course there are always exceptions to this. I would like to remind you the English were not responsible for murder or violence. Neither did the English enforce their language on the population.
You are right. There was no choice after the violence caused by the FLQ. Had they not setup this bill there would always be civil war in the province. There can never be a solution to this. English was naturally the dominant language but the French wanted their language to dominate all others.
But here is the result of this. Montreal once the major and main economic city during Expo67 was expanding so rapidly now is kind of in a stagnation. Toronto is now the major city. That city has expanded and grown at ten times the pace of Montreal. What else can I say? Ask any Montrealer who has lived in the 60's and 70's. I am pretty sure the province would have ended up like New Brunswick. That is in my opinion the only truly bilingual province. I wonder why this set of violent events that took place in Quebec did not happen in New Brunswick?
Bonjour Cloud,
Vous êtes habituellement l'une des personnes les plus respectueux et compatissant ici. Mais, vous suggérez survie du plus fort doit contrôler cette situation. Pensez-vous vraiment comprendre vos sens? La différence entre les gens et les animaux est la compassion pour tous les peuples. Il est le soin des malades, et non pas en laissant les autres mourir.
Vous dites que si les Français ne peuvent pas survivre au Québec sans la loi 101, leur langage et la culture doivent mourir. Avec ce principe de la logique, les Français ont désormais l'avantage politique et la population au Québec sans la loi 101, la langue anglaise et la culture doit y mourir. Si vous croyez en votre principe, alors vous n'avez pas le droit de protester conditions sociales actuelles au Québec. Si vous croyez en survie du plus fort au Québec au sujet, alors vous devriez en sortir. Pensé ridicule, n'est-ce pas.
Vous dites que «l'anglais est la langue des affaires du monde." Vous laissez entendre ici un principe aussi. Depuis une langue est dominent dans les affaires toute autre langue est plus faible et doit mourir. En principe, si le chinois, russe, hindi ou l'espagnol devient la langue dominent dans les affaires, puis l'anglais devrait mourir aussi. Vos principes sont totalitaires, et non pas démocratique ou compasionate. Il semble proche de théories de supériorité raciale et ethnique. Ils sont très proches de l'idéologie de la plus effrayante de l'histoire.
Croyez-vous vraiment attendre d'autres cultures à renoncer parce que l'anglais est la langue des affaires du monde. Croyez-vous vraiment attendre les Français au Québec à mourir sans se battre parce qu'il ya plus d'anglais au Canada. Je pense que vous permettez à votre frustration et la colère de vous submerger.
Les Français veulent survivre, les Anglais aussi. Survie fondées sur la domination globale n'est pas morale. Il est de sang-froid inhumanité. Je suis sûr que vous avez plus de moralité et de la compassion que cela.
Rappelez-vous, la juridiction suprême nationale du Canada a décidé la loi 101 est légale, et il permet le minimum de liberté de parole aussi longtemps que l'anglais est enseigné, et en anglais est disponible pour le public partout où il ya un besoin. Si vous laissez le FLQ dictent la morale et des solutions, alors nous devrions tous devenir comme des animaux et s'entre-tuer. Bonne
chance!
malheureusement,
Merlot
Hello Cloud,
You are usually one of the most respectful and compassionate people here. But, you suggest survival of the fittest should control this situation. Do you truly understand your meaning? The difference between people and animals is compassion for all people. It is caring for the sick, not leaving others to die.
You say if the French cannot survive in Quebec without Bill 101, their language and culture should die. With that principle of logic, since the French currently have the political and population advantage in Quebec without Bill 101, then the English language and culture should die there. If you believe in your principle, then you do not have the right to protest current social conditions in Quebec. If you believe in survival of the fittest regarding Quebec, then you should get out. Ridiculous thought, isn't it.
You say "English is the business language of the world." You imply a principle here too. Since one language is dominate in business any other language is weaker and should die. In principle, if Chinese, Russian, Hindi, or Spanish become the dominate language in business, then English should die too. Your principles are totalitarian, not democratic or compasionate. It sounds close to ethnic and racial superiority theories. They are very close to the most frightening ideologies of history.
Do you truly expect other cultures to give up because English is the business language of the world. Do you truly expect the French in Quebec to die without fighting because there are more English in Canada. I think you are allowing your frustration and anger to overwhelm you.
The French want to survive, so too the English. Survival based on overall dominance is not moral. It is cold-blooded inhumanity. I'm sure you have more morality and compassion than that.
Remember, the national supreme court of Canada decided Bill 101 is legal, and it permits the minimum freedom of speech as long as English is taught, and English is available to the public wherever there is a need. If you let the FLQ dictate morality and solutions, then we should all become like animals and kill each other. Good luck.
Sadly,
Merlot
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Merlot...with all due respect, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. No American who visits Montreal a few times a year has the slightest idea what it's like living here for the last number of decades.
I really love this line in particular: "Survivial based on overall dominance is not moral. It is cold-blooded inhumanity. I'm sure you have more morality and compassion than that." Really? But that is exactly what the French are doing here. They are using laws to make certain that they remain the dominant culture in this province over all others. Why is it fair for them to do that but not right to speak out against it and to speak out for equality for all, no matter the language they speak? They are not dominant because they have done a better job managing this province than others in the past, or have made great strides in attracting business and money to Quebec. In fact they have done the exact opposite. They have driven money and business and people out of this province.
Oh yeah...whatever decision the Supreme Court of Canada makes is totally irrelevant here in Quebec. You see there happens to be something called the Not Withstanding Clause that allows Quebec to override any Supreme Court decision. For what it's worth, the UN stated years ago that the language laws in Quebec would be in violation of International law if they applied to a country as a whole but when applied to only a portion of a country. If Quebec was ever to separate from Canada, their language laws go down the drain.
By the way, your pervious post about how they "had no choice" is also pointless and off the mark. It doesn't answer the question of "what gives them the right" to be the dominant language and culture. Survival is one thing, and I do not believe that the language or culture is in any danger of vanishing, dominance is totally different. No culture or language has the right to survive it is requires the demise of another to do so. You speak of survival of the fittest, well you can't really judge who is the fittest when the playing field is artificially slanted in the favour of one side. Lets take the language laws off the books where it comes to education and see how it goes.
Let's make changes to the OLF and eliminate the idea of anonymous complaints. Did you know about that one, Merlot? That anyone can make an anonymous complaint regarding language issues to the Office de la Langue Francais and they will investigate it? They even encourage anonymous complaints. Does that sound familiar? Last year an Irish bar was fined by the OLF for having English beer coasters at their bar and English posters on the wall. This is an Irish Pub mind you. English posters from Ireland are kind of part of the atmosphere, you know? Now while the Language Police, or Apostrophe SS, was harassing the pub, the French bar across the street had exactly the same beer company provided English coasters and never received a visit at all. Anonymous complaints. What a marvelous idea. We're talking fucking beer coasters here, not textbooks or business communications.
Beer coasters in English that led to fines. Can things get more petty than that?
You are out of your element in this discussion, Merlot.
Really? Merb didn't even exist in the mid 90's so what the hell are you talking about? How the hell do you know what anyone here was doing? Lots of people here were probably in their teens in the mid 90's and didn't give a damn about language in Vancouver or even here in Quebec for that matter. How about posting some links to support yourself? Oh yeah, hard to find links to things like that from when the Web was just starting out. Between Sapman's claims that he's yet to back up and your totally pointless and inane posts it's really lucky that the French language has Merlot to stand up for it. I'm starting to understand why it needs laws to protect it.
Now can someone please answer my question? What gives French the divine right to rule in Quebec? The Catholic church maybe? Someone? Anyone?
I really love this line in particular: "Survivial based on overall dominance is not moral. It is cold-blooded inhumanity. I'm sure you have more morality and compassion than that." Really? But that is exactly what the French are doing here. They are using laws to make certain that they remain the dominant culture in this province over all others. Why is it fair for them to do that but not right to speak out against it and to speak out for equality for all, no matter the language they speak? They are not dominant because they have done a better job managing this province than others in the past, or have made great strides in attracting business and money to Quebec. In fact they have done the exact opposite. They have driven money and business and people out of this province.
Oh yeah...whatever decision the Supreme Court of Canada makes is totally irrelevant here in Quebec. You see there happens to be something called the Not Withstanding Clause that allows Quebec to override any Supreme Court decision. For what it's worth, the UN stated years ago that the language laws in Quebec would be in violation of International law if they applied to a country as a whole but when applied to only a portion of a country. If Quebec was ever to separate from Canada, their language laws go down the drain.
By the way, your pervious post about how they "had no choice" is also pointless and off the mark. It doesn't answer the question of "what gives them the right" to be the dominant language and culture. Survival is one thing, and I do not believe that the language or culture is in any danger of vanishing, dominance is totally different. No culture or language has the right to survive it is requires the demise of another to do so. You speak of survival of the fittest, well you can't really judge who is the fittest when the playing field is artificially slanted in the favour of one side. Lets take the language laws off the books where it comes to education and see how it goes.
Let's make changes to the OLF and eliminate the idea of anonymous complaints. Did you know about that one, Merlot? That anyone can make an anonymous complaint regarding language issues to the Office de la Langue Francais and they will investigate it? They even encourage anonymous complaints. Does that sound familiar? Last year an Irish bar was fined by the OLF for having English beer coasters at their bar and English posters on the wall. This is an Irish Pub mind you. English posters from Ireland are kind of part of the atmosphere, you know? Now while the Language Police, or Apostrophe SS, was harassing the pub, the French bar across the street had exactly the same beer company provided English coasters and never received a visit at all. Anonymous complaints. What a marvelous idea. We're talking fucking beer coasters here, not textbooks or business communications.
Beer coasters in English that led to fines. Can things get more petty than that?
You are out of your element in this discussion, Merlot.
hormone said:
Really? Merb didn't even exist in the mid 90's so what the hell are you talking about? How the hell do you know what anyone here was doing? Lots of people here were probably in their teens in the mid 90's and didn't give a damn about language in Vancouver or even here in Quebec for that matter. How about posting some links to support yourself? Oh yeah, hard to find links to things like that from when the Web was just starting out. Between Sapman's claims that he's yet to back up and your totally pointless and inane posts it's really lucky that the French language has Merlot to stand up for it. I'm starting to understand why it needs laws to protect it.
Now can someone please answer my question? What gives French the divine right to rule in Quebec? The Catholic church maybe? Someone? Anyone?
K
Kansas Frank
It's evident to me that both Anglo and French love Quebec, otherwise the Anglo would have moved out. Despite the long simmering feud over whether the French language and culture should be accorded primacy in Quebec, everyone has co-existed with one another in relative peace and without the violence that frequently occurs in Spain.
I think the French culture will survive in Quebec as long as the current generation of young French-Canadians keep Hollywood and Madison Avenue at bay. Some say the youths in Japan have become more American because they allowed themselves to be brainwashed by Hollywood and Madison Avenue.
When China, Inc. comes to Quebec in earnest, like it did in Italty, I hope all Canadians in Quebec will unite to preserve and protect both the French and Anglo ways of life.
France, Quebec's true motherland, has begun to embrance multicuturalism as evident by the make up of its women (and men) teams that played in the last FIFA World Cup. France has been trying in earnest to integrate the various people and ethnicities from it former colonies.
Coexistence is not a zero sum game -- separate cultures and languages can and will survive, so long as the current youths and future generations are self-motivated to carry those responsibilies on their shoulders.
I think the French culture will survive in Quebec as long as the current generation of young French-Canadians keep Hollywood and Madison Avenue at bay. Some say the youths in Japan have become more American because they allowed themselves to be brainwashed by Hollywood and Madison Avenue.
When China, Inc. comes to Quebec in earnest, like it did in Italty, I hope all Canadians in Quebec will unite to preserve and protect both the French and Anglo ways of life.
France, Quebec's true motherland, has begun to embrance multicuturalism as evident by the make up of its women (and men) teams that played in the last FIFA World Cup. France has been trying in earnest to integrate the various people and ethnicities from it former colonies.
Coexistence is not a zero sum game -- separate cultures and languages can and will survive, so long as the current youths and future generations are self-motivated to carry those responsibilies on their shoulders.
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To answer your question, no one has the divine right to rule in any jurisdiction.
On the other hand not challenfing various so-called language laws that have been enacted since 1976 has eliminated blame from the old guard political leaders who badly mismanaged post WWII Quebec.
Example the PSBGM, did not challenge the various aspects of the language laws as they applied to education.. Why? PSBGM = Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal.
Various reasons. In the 1950's the PSBGM had started an expansion program based on the initial Baby Boomer numbers combined with immigration and retention numbers. Elementary and high schools were built. By the late 1960's the PSBGM realized it had badly miscalculated, School population was at about 2/3 of the projected numbers and dropping. The baby boom had dropped to a trickle, immigration had stopped, Montreal had lost its status as a port due to container shipping going to New York, decreasing usage of trains had started the closure of the Angus Shops. Solutions had to be found. Schools started closing. Justifications were needed. Politically admitting that the commissioners had messed up big time was not an option so they needed a scapegoat. The language laws were convenient even though pointing at the language laws as the reason overlooked the simple reality that even with the the immigrants going to the French schools, the French boards were closing more and bigger schools.
Simply viewing the various events that have happened in Quebec since WWII strictly in terms of language is ultra superficial fron both perspectives French and English. Viewed in depth there is always some issue of political expediancy that drove the decision.
M. Merlot, U are factually incorrect. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the provision of language signage is unconstitutional contravening freedom of expression. The Quebec Government employed the "notwithstanding clause" to override freedom of expression (section 2b), and equality rights (section 15). This allowed Quebec to continue the restriction against the posting of any commercial signs in languages other than French.
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1988/1988scr2-712/1988scr2-712.html
The language of signage is the least of the bothersome provisions or clauses of Bill 101 and if it meant that this would be the olive branch to extent and for compromises to be made in the more contentious clauses, I think that no right minded English Quebecer would object.
The most contentious section of Bill 101 directly affecting the English community in Quebec is the one which restricts the choice of schooling into the English sector. It allows only those children whose parents (one of which) was educated in English in Quebec or anywhere in the rest of Canada. Those families who choose to immigrate to Quebec from the USA, UK or Australia cannot send their children to an English public school. Are immigrants from the USA, Brits or Aussies ever going to fully assimilate into a French Quebec culture ? Are those few immigrants from the above nations such an actual threat to the survival of the French language and culture in Quebec ? The obvious answer is, no !
There is a problem occurring in the Quebec English community that deserves equal attention. Due to the reality of the low birthrate of all second generation North Americans and older, combined with zero immigration (not including the rest of Canada, which is minute) this has caused a decrease in the Quebec English population. The English public schooling system is dying a rapid death. School boards are funded by the province and those boards must make tough choices to close schools when the population of each school cannot justify the expenditure for a few pupils.
The result on the English community in Quebec is, as each crop of young people graduate from either McGill or Concordia a large part of them leave Quebec for employment and futures elsewhere and as they mature and start their own families and a lot of retired parents follow so that they can be near and experience their grandchildren. The taxes that they remit to Revenue Quebec is gone as well.
Their contribution to this place that they called home and a special one at that because of their English language combined with the French is gone and will never return into the mix that makes this Quebec a unique place to live.
You say badly miscalculated, but that's because the post-World war 2 period of unprecedented prosperity just ground to a halt due to totally unforeseen circumstances back in the late 30's and '40's, instead of bad arithmetic After finally getting out of the Depression and with the amazing post-war economic and technological boom there really was no way to predict how it would all slow down about 20 years later. Heck, even on the french side of things, no one would ever have imagined that families of 12 kids and over would be a single generational oddity rather than a much-hoped for tradition. In 1946, if you had said for even a second that the church would be almost completely abandoned within 30 years, you might haved been stoned right there...
This happens all the time, what seems like a sure thing that almost everyone agrees will remain a big part of our lives for decades to come. That remains true for years, sometimes decades, when from out of nowhere something comes along and virtually if not completely wipes that former sure thing out of existence: lifelong job security at factories, VHS tapes, phone booths, vinyl records, the Cold War...
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Could you please clarify you post ? Which World War are you referring to ? World War ll ended in 1945 and a economic boom occurred shortly thereafter. The 50's & 60's were an economic dream.
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You're right, sorry I wrote this out too quickly. Try this instead:
me the dumbass said:
By the way, as could have been predicted, we've moved as far away from the thread title as can be. How about renaming it 'MERB'S SUMMER 2011 LANGUAGE FREE-4-ALL THREAD!!''
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I'm debating one aspect of Eastender's post up top...Go back and read it, or ask him...
A little history
Three generations
My grandfather once needed a bank loan. While the tellers at his branch of the Royal Bank spoke French, the manager did not. Grandfather had to bring an interpreter with him to the loan interview.
My father worked for Northern Electric (became Northern Telecom) for 35 years, the first 15 here in Montreal. He never had the opportunity to work in French his entire career.
I was hired in Toronto by a multinational company in order to start-up and staff a national call centre. We answered requests from across Canada, in English and French. There was other staff at the building in other departments, and we shared a cafeteria. One day I was chatting in French with a call centre colleague when someone behind us exclaimed "This is Canada. We speak English here".
Earlier on, I was working for a Montreal-based company. When I was laid off, I received a letter with my settlement, and the letter was only in English. The business of the company: to provide simultaneous translation facilities to clients, the biggest one being the Government of Canada :nod:.
"Canadiens" marginalized
Historically, French-Canadians were represented in much higher numbers in the other provinces, but both massive Anglo-American immigration and assimilation diminished their relevance greatly. This article on the formation of Upper Canada tells part of the story.
An act that still rankles with many French Canadians was Ontario's Regulation 17. Under the Act, French education in that province was limited to the first two years of primary school. After that, everyone went to English school, no exceptions. The daily French newspaper "Le Droit" from Ottawa was founded at the time to oppose this regulation.
More recently, Mike Harris led the Ontario Conservatives to power on a platform of tax and service cuts, including services to the French communities. He made John Baird his "Minister of Francophone Affairs", who made a point of not attending most Franco-Ontarian association meetings, even though invited.
In 1997, the Harris government attempted to close the Montfort Hospital in Ottawa, Ontario's only French University accredited hospital. Fortunately a closure was averted due to interventions from Québec and the feds.
One thing must be clear: there may not be "Bill 101 style" legislation in effect in the other provinces of Canada, but the lack of funding for whatever programs exist is having a much more devastating effect.
A little levity
Watch this clip of renowned humorists Olivier Guimond and Denis Drouin to get a little perspective (and a laugh) at the two solitudes. Obviously much better enjoyed if you are bilingual. Underneath the slapstick humour is both a show of reconciliation after the stressful events of October 1970, and some pretty suave fun ("If I fall, you fall with me", etc.).
Three generations
My grandfather once needed a bank loan. While the tellers at his branch of the Royal Bank spoke French, the manager did not. Grandfather had to bring an interpreter with him to the loan interview.
My father worked for Northern Electric (became Northern Telecom) for 35 years, the first 15 here in Montreal. He never had the opportunity to work in French his entire career.
I was hired in Toronto by a multinational company in order to start-up and staff a national call centre. We answered requests from across Canada, in English and French. There was other staff at the building in other departments, and we shared a cafeteria. One day I was chatting in French with a call centre colleague when someone behind us exclaimed "This is Canada. We speak English here".
Earlier on, I was working for a Montreal-based company. When I was laid off, I received a letter with my settlement, and the letter was only in English. The business of the company: to provide simultaneous translation facilities to clients, the biggest one being the Government of Canada :nod:.
"Canadiens" marginalized
Historically, French-Canadians were represented in much higher numbers in the other provinces, but both massive Anglo-American immigration and assimilation diminished their relevance greatly. This article on the formation of Upper Canada tells part of the story.
An act that still rankles with many French Canadians was Ontario's Regulation 17. Under the Act, French education in that province was limited to the first two years of primary school. After that, everyone went to English school, no exceptions. The daily French newspaper "Le Droit" from Ottawa was founded at the time to oppose this regulation.
More recently, Mike Harris led the Ontario Conservatives to power on a platform of tax and service cuts, including services to the French communities. He made John Baird his "Minister of Francophone Affairs", who made a point of not attending most Franco-Ontarian association meetings, even though invited.
In 1997, the Harris government attempted to close the Montfort Hospital in Ottawa, Ontario's only French University accredited hospital. Fortunately a closure was averted due to interventions from Québec and the feds.
One thing must be clear: there may not be "Bill 101 style" legislation in effect in the other provinces of Canada, but the lack of funding for whatever programs exist is having a much more devastating effect.
A little levity
Watch this clip of renowned humorists Olivier Guimond and Denis Drouin to get a little perspective (and a laugh) at the two solitudes. Obviously much better enjoyed if you are bilingual. Underneath the slapstick humour is both a show of reconciliation after the stressful events of October 1970, and some pretty suave fun ("If I fall, you fall with me", etc.).
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Reading your post is all the levity I need. I'm sorry that you had to suffer such terrible insults in your life. The frustration and aggravation must have been really hard to deal with. I guess we should count ourselves lucky you didn't lose it and start putting bombs in mail boxes. Once again you refuse to deal with the questions here in Quebec and instead you try to misdirect once again by speaking about what happens outside Quebec. Nothing that happens outside Quebec can be used to justify actions taken in this province to artificially ensure the dominance of the French language and culture.
You also neglected to address the outright lie you posted stating that I once threatened to bring a gun to a GT. I am now formally requesting that a moderator look at that statement and request that you prove it. You are accusing me of threatening to commit an illegal act and I will not let that pass. That is libelous and if I have to, I will contact Fred Zed directly about that statement. Either prove it or retract it.
And once again, you avoid the main question I asked many posts ago: What right do the French have to remain the dominant culture above all others in Quebec? I will continue asking this question until you either give an answer or concede that they have no such right.
You also neglected to address the outright lie you posted stating that I once threatened to bring a gun to a GT. I am now formally requesting that a moderator look at that statement and request that you prove it. You are accusing me of threatening to commit an illegal act and I will not let that pass. That is libelous and if I have to, I will contact Fred Zed directly about that statement. Either prove it or retract it.
And once again, you avoid the main question I asked many posts ago: What right do the French have to remain the dominant culture above all others in Quebec? I will continue asking this question until you either give an answer or concede that they have no such right.
I stand by my initial comment.The factors that you mention in the upper bolded were common throughout North America including Canada and the province of Quebec. My comments specifically targeted the PSBGM which governed schools strictly in a limited region of Montreal. They badly miscalculated while Protestant boards around them, throughout the province of Quebec and elsewhere did not. That is why they did not sue because winning would expose their bad management and preclude doing business with their best customers for empty schools = the Catholic School Commissions. French and English plus the private sector - French private schools within their jurisdiction.
As for the Catholic church being abandoned and the teaching not being followed, net smaller families. This did not impact the PSBGM directly since they did not cater to the Catholic populace. It was a strong factor in the various educational legislation as lost educational jobs in the French Catholic Commissions were portable outside the province. Hence they had to be sustained via legislation that forced even non-Catholics into the French Catholic school system which previously would have gone against the preachings of the Catholic church.
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sapman, those examples that you have been kind enough to share here on this board clearly illustrate that you may be trying to right the wrongs that have been done in your writings on this topic.
Do you in turn realize that their are other communities in Quebec's past that have been just as badly mistreated but by the French majority?
I'm searching in your post above however touching (to a degree) that has not enlightened me.
Do you in turn realize that their are other communities in Quebec's past that have been just as badly mistreated but by the French majority?
I'm searching in your post above however touching (to a degree) that has not enlightened me.
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Quebecers of French expression were de facto dominated by the Anglo-British establishment since before Confederation. This in part was exacerbated by the Roman Catholic clergy, holder of the keys to higher education. They preferred the status quo, which kept their churches and coffers full. In the meantime, membership in the better clubs, positions on boards of trade, banks and exchanges were held by the English. They were known as "The Establishment".
Even though a mathematical majority in Quebec, the French were second-class citizens. The provincial elections since 1976 have shown that while French Quebecers have no intention of leaving Canada, they are clearly in favour of "The French Language Charter". Try as you might to demonize it, it gives English Quebecers a wide array of services nowhere else in Canada enjoyed by the French minorities, and still permits successive generations of English Canadians full access to publicly funded education.
I asked one of Robert Bourassa`s former organizers what he thought and he detests separatists, yet endorses the language legislation. Same for a McGill professor I know: a US immigrant, he favours the bill, while wanting Quebec to remain in Canada.
. Everyone, please note "the Techman selectivity scale".
about linguistic events outside "La Belle Province".
This is all "old hat". I see pumped up extremists using "small politic" tactics to demonize a situation which has in fact, created the harmony Quebec needed to thrive. Many forward-thinking anglophones have come to recognize this and now all we have are a few voices in the desert.
I have decided to stop posting. You are now free to take whatever shots at me you wish, I will not respond. I have expended enough time on this, and in face of such obtuseness, I throw my hands up.
Techman, you will never be satisfied until Bill 101 is thrown into the waste bin. Yet you must know that is not likely to happen. Get over it or get out of here, not for our sake, for yours. I can see how it is eating you up and I feel for you. Put all of that energy you seem to have away from serving that seething hate you are harbouring and in the pursuit of happiness.
Love and peace. Amour et Paix.:thumb:
Please note: you may notice I have edited my post this morning. Last night, I was egged on by both Techman and James Joyce to respond to some things and I stayed up to do so. This morning, I found a few things I could have done better and I refined the post. These changes are only in response to posts made prior to this one. I still intend to keep silent on anything posted after this post.
You can stop screaming your head off in capital letters. I can read you loud and clear.
Quebecers of French expression were de facto dominated by the Anglo-British establishment since before Confederation. This in part was exacerbated by the Roman Catholic clergy, holder of the keys to higher education. They preferred the status quo, which kept their churches and coffers full. In the meantime, membership in the better clubs, positions on boards of trade, banks and exchanges were held by the English. They were known as "The Establishment".
Even though a mathematical majority in Quebec, the French were second-class citizens. The provincial elections since 1976 have shown that while French Quebecers have no intention of leaving Canada, they are clearly in favour of "The French Language Charter". Try as you might to demonize it, it gives English Quebecers a wide array of services nowhere else in Canada enjoyed by the French minorities, and still permits successive generations of English Canadians full access to publicly funded education.
I never ever said I "excused" their impardonable acts. I said that the acts may have stemmed from some long held frustrations. They were crazy hotheads, that is undeniable. All terrorists are. But as with most terrorists, they were egged on by a "cause". What I see you doing here with your lumping of the Quiet Revolution with the FLQ and then inferring I am condoning violence is called demonization. I have noticed you are very prone to this, also very prone to only quoting parts of what your opponent say that is against your grain. Any attempt at establishing a rapport are ignored.Techman said:
How very enlightened and productive. I remember the Brockville Quebec flag stomping incident, but I never let that become my main view of Anglo Canadians. In a subsequent post you keep coming at us with ghosts of the FLQ being behind the passing of the language laws, totally false. As I said, successive Liberal governments have not seen fit to repeal the law because it is supported by a majority of the population.CLOUD 500 said:
I asked one of Robert Bourassa`s former organizers what he thought and he detests separatists, yet endorses the language legislation. Same for a McGill professor I know: a US immigrant, he favours the bill, while wanting Quebec to remain in Canada.
A true demagogue... You never said this about ANY American who came running to support your "theories"Techman said:
. Everyone, please note "the Techman selectivity scale".
Yep, heard that one... New Brunswick is unfortunately too small and already "filled" so us Frenchies can`t all move there. We have been squeezed out of the rest of Canada (unless we want to assimilate of course). A similar fate awaits us here without language laws. We acted. Point. The Air Canada thing happenned outside Quebec and here are Techman`s first reactions:Techman said:
Monsieur Techman, you yourself seem to get pretty worked up and colourful
about linguistic events outside "La Belle Province".
1- You do not sound one bit sorry. You are simply attempting to diffuse what I said with hardly concealed contempt. 2- Your harping on violence is telling: once more an attempt at redirection. Anyone who knows me well here knows I am a strong advocate of peace and non-violence. 3- It is you here who is misdirecting: Three of the four personal incidents I recounted occurred in Quebec, and Upper Canada was formed by splitting the "Province of Quebec" in two, therefore relevant, even in your narrow definition of the term.
Techman, I formally apologize. I was sure I remembered you posting something like this, but it seems I was wrong. The word "gun" having three letters only also makes it had to perform a thorough search. Still, this post may be of interest.Techman said:
This is all "old hat". I see pumped up extremists using "small politic" tactics to demonize a situation which has in fact, created the harmony Quebec needed to thrive. Many forward-thinking anglophones have come to recognize this and now all we have are a few voices in the desert.
I have decided to stop posting. You are now free to take whatever shots at me you wish, I will not respond. I have expended enough time on this, and in face of such obtuseness, I throw my hands up.
Techman, you will never be satisfied until Bill 101 is thrown into the waste bin. Yet you must know that is not likely to happen. Get over it or get out of here, not for our sake, for yours. I can see how it is eating you up and I feel for you. Put all of that energy you seem to have away from serving that seething hate you are harbouring and in the pursuit of happiness.
Love and peace. Amour et Paix.
:thumb:Please note: you may notice I have edited my post this morning. Last night, I was egged on by both Techman and James Joyce to respond to some things and I stayed up to do so. This morning, I found a few things I could have done better and I refined the post. These changes are only in response to posts made prior to this one. I still intend to keep silent on anything posted after this post.
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Bonjour à tous,
Je me suis trompé en disant projet de loi 101 a été jugée constitutionnelle par la Cour suprême du Canada. Cependant, je n'ai indiquent à juste titre que les Français peuvent protéger leur langue, tant qu'ils n'interdisent pas d'autres langues.
Techman, votre affirmation selon laquelle les Américains ne peuvent pas comprendre les enjeux au Québec est fausse. Une personne n'a pas besoin de vivre en Afghanistan, ou être une femme, de comprendre leurs souffrances par les talibans. Bien sûr que non. La situation au Québec n'est pas unique complètement. Les conflits entre les populations majoritaires et minoritaires et les populations sont universelles en général. Seuls les détails sont différents. Voulez-vous faire cette déclaration si j'étais d'accord avec tout ce que vous dites? Je n'ai jamais dit que je savais ce que c'est que de vivre dans Montreal. J'ai dit que je compris les enjeux.
Ma déclaration que les Français n'avaient pas le choix a été sur la marque. Mon intention était de résumer l'impasse entre les Français et les Anglais sur la question linguistique. Il ya une impasse incassable. Comme il n'ya pas de coopération ou de compromis et les deux parties doivent se battre pour survivre. Il n'ya pas d'autre choix.
Vous déformé mes paroles. Si vous lisez mon message vous pouvez voir que j'ai dit, "Je ne pense pas que le projet de loi 101 est juste ou droite." Je ne suis pas supprting les Français. Je suis d'examiner les contradictions. Je n'ai jamais dit le projet de loi 101 qui est juste ou moral. J'ai dit que les français (toutes les langues également) ont le droit de survivre.
Votre question: "" ce que leur donne le droit d'être la langue dominante et la culture "est unilatérale. Une meilleure question à propos de la situation est la suivante: ce qui donne à l'anglais ou le français le droit d'être la langue dominante.avant 1982. Pour répondre à votre question, aucune langue ou la culture a le droit d'éliminer l'autre.
Hello all,
I was wrong saying Bill 101 was judged constitutional by the supreme court of Canada. However, I did indicate correctly that the French can protect their language, as long as they do not prohibit other languages.
Techman, your statement that Americans can't understand the issues in Quebec is false. Does a person need to live in Afghanistan, or be a woman, to understand their suffering by the Taliban. Of course not. The situation in Quebec is not unique completely. The conflicts between majority populations and minority populations are universal generally. Only the details are different. Would you make that statement if I agreed with everything you say? I never said I knew what it is like to live in Montreal. I said I understood the issues.
My statement that the French had no choice was on the mark. My intention was to summarize the impasse between the French and the English on the language issue. There is an unbreakable impasse. Since there is no cooperation or compromise and both sides must fight to survive. There is no other choice.
You distorted my words. If you read my message you can see I said, "I don't think Bill 101 is fair or right." I am not supporting the French. I am examining the contradictions. I never said Bill 101 is right or moral. I said the French (all languages also) have the right to survive.
Your question: ""what gives them the right to be the dominant language and culture" is one-sided A better question about the situation is: what gives the English or the French the right to be the dominant language. You forget the responsibility and fault of the English before 1982. To answer your question, no language or culture has the right to eliminate the other.
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Techman, I made a number of references to "survival of the fittest" because Cloud used it to justify the eventual end of the French language and culture in Quebec. It's ironic because survival of the fittest means using what ever skills or attributes exist to survive. There are no rules just winning tactics. So on that basis creating a law to enhance survival is perfectly justified and no one who bases their position on survival of the fittest has the right to complain about the legitimacy of any tactics. Again, I didn't say Bill 101 is right or fair.
"Now can someone please answer my question? What gives French the divine right to rule in Quebec? The Catholic church maybe? Someone? Anyone?"
"No culture or language has the right to survive it is requires the demise of another to do so."
Why do you ask this question when you have already directed the answer? I have given the same basic answer in bold.
I understand you are living in a situation that you find reprehensible because of Bill 101, and blame the French leadership, if not the people in general for it. I understand you focus against the French because that is what is here and now. However, what I don't understand is you almost never seem to make reference to the very long dominance of the English or the removal of protections of the French language that were fair for all. Right, that is not the here and now, but it is part of the main cause of the here and now. So why aren't you more circumspect about the WHOLE situation? No one can resolve a situation if they don't deal with the cause as well as the current condition, especially with something like Bill 101 and it's effect.
Remember that for the last 250 years or so it was the English who dominated the top levels of government in Canada who set up this whole situation through their choices.
As for the Notwithstanding Clause, who put it into the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Isn't using it legal? Haven't several provinces used it? By using it has Quebec done anything LEGALLY wrong?
A lot of the arguments against what Quebec has done doesn't seem to deal with the legal right of the province to act. That doesn't mean that those against Bill 101 are wrong about it's effects or it's unfairness to other cultures, but it does show that resentment is in control here more than rational and fair circumspection. If both sides only care about belaboring the unfairness that has been done by each side to each side instead of really recognizing each sides views and needs, and finding a fairer solution for both sides then this issue is a lost cause... and this whole thread is nothing more than personal venting just for the exercise.
Cheers,
Merlot
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