Air canada loses lawsuit over stewardess failing to speak in "mother tongue"

[Merlot]

What causes the resentment are those who come in and demand to be spoken in English. No hint of French, not a word, not a "Sorry", just English. (For the French readers, "demand" in English mean "exige" not "demande". That difference almost created a constitutional war before because of a faulty translation from French to English. "Demander" in French would translate to "requesting" in English, not to "demanding". Big difference.)

Bonjour Metoo,

Le problème est tout le monde est de donner leurs griefs, mais pas de solutions. Quand tout le monde ne se soucie que de gagner leur cause contre l'autre personne, le résultat est une résistance de plus en plus, la colère et du ressentiment. Après de nombreux échanges récemment, et en répétant ce sujet deux fois ou plus chaque année, rien n'a été accompli, sauf la répétition de la colère.

Il est censé être positif et sain pour discuter des griefs, mais seulement si chaque côté dans le désaccord veut trouver une solution. Je ne vois pas que cela se produise ici, ou dans les épisodes précédents sur cette question. Cette rivalité est trop profonde et amère, évidemment. Il n'y aura pas de paix jusqu'à ce que chacun désire vraiment, et il semble chaque côté veut imposer leur point de vue seulement, ne pas coopèrent ou trouver une solution raisonnable.

Hello Metoo,

The problem is everyone is giving their grievances, but no solutions. When everyone cares only to win their case against the other person, the result is a growing resistance, anger and resentment. After numerous discussions recently, and repeating this about twice or more each year, nothing was done except the repetition of anger.

It is supposed to be positive and healthy to discuss grievances, but only if each side in the dispute wants to find a solution. I do not see that happening here or in previous episodes on this issue. This rivalry is too deep and bitter, of course. There will be no peace until everyone really wants it, and it seems both sides want to impose their point of view only, not cooperate or find a reasonable solution.

,

Merlot

 

[Techman]

Merlot, what kind of solution do you think would be applicable here where some people have more rights than others? I am of the opinion that all people are equal and should have the same rights and privileges. All citizens should receive the same value for their tax dollar. To do otherwise is repressive and unfair. To do so in favour of a specific, identifiable group is discriminatory. If similar laws were passed preventing blacks from attending a particular school or forcing them to attend a particular school the situation would not be tolerated. Just because a law is based on language inistead of colour or religious beliefs doesn't make it any less despicable.

 

[gugu]

Merlot,

As others have noticed I’d like to first thank you for your sensibility and general attitude on this matter.

Is there something flawed in the law permitting what happened at Air Canada? Contrary to what is often thought, Air Canada does not have the obligation to have French-speaking flight attendants on all their planes or airport services. The obligation exists where the number of French speaking passengers justifies it. It was the case for the 2 flights (Toronto-Atlanta, Toronto-Charletton) and the Toronto airport for which the couple filled complaint. The Superior Court ruled that Air Canada failed to oblige by the law. The Canadian Commissioner of Official Languages has said on numerous occasions in the past that Air Canada fail to respect the law and Air Canada itself admitted violating the law in this specific case. This law has nothing to do with security issues. It says that Canadians, bilingual or not, have the right to be served in one of the 2 official languages when dealing with a federal institution where the demand is large enough.

Some may simply see a guy abusing the system. I don’t know him and what his true intentions were. I don’t care. The fact is that Air Canada has a long history in the non-respect of the law on that matter. The couple would not have gained such compensation if the institution they had problem with had a relatively good record. You have to see it as a symbolic victory.

Of course, you’ll find all sorts of arguments based on numbers, as you have seen here. Numbers are a security ground for most of us because they are considered hard facts. The problem is that most people are unable to understand numbers. It’s starts with someone throwing a first number. And than a guy, myself in this case, acting with a maximum bad will, start building on it using the principles of 'pataphysics "the science of imaginary solutions, which symbolically attributes the properties of objects, described by their virtuality, to their lineaments." (Jarry) : the first one says 3% ; I apply it to the Greater Toronto, 5M. Oh gee, funny. Its the population of Trois-Rivières ; and than others start using 1.2% and apply it to the City of Toronto. And then, two other guys come in and notice that 1,2% is almost marginal in comparison with us the anglos in Montréal (Wow! That feels good). The first talks about 30% Anglos in Montréal and the other brings it back to 20% or something close to that. The next one brings in the equation the number of potholes in the streets of Montréal.

Shake it up! Shake it up… Ding! Eureka! We have found the primary explanation of the problem : the god damn seperatists!

That’s what happens with numbers. They finally drive us into more fantasies then emotions.

Oh! By the way. I have another number to throw in, and I will not take care to go into the digits. There are 60 000 people living in the Greater Toronto with French as a mother thong. I heard you, wise guy. Some of them do not use it anymore at home. True. Can we just fucking care for those guys. 60 000 people is the size of a city, all of which contained within the Greater Toronto, grossly the one territory deserved by the TTC.

That’s not worth translating an Internet site, according to a fucking idiot who calls me a xenophobe. The TTC spends 1.3 billion$ every year.

Thousands of French Canadians try to maintain some sort of an identity in Toronto. People like Cloud DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THEM.

This case is about Francophones outside Québec. It has nothing to do with the situation in Québec. It is so God damn mean and opportunistic for the agenda driven radical faction of the pro English group to start whining about their condition. They taught us the lesson about Francophones outside Québec: they are a lost cause. “Speak white, tabarnac”. Tell you what, Merlot: I have ten times more consideration for the anglo community of Montréal than these extremists have for the franco community outside Québec. And that fucking idiot calls me a xenophobe.

One extra note, Merlot. Having studied history as you did, you are perfectly conscious that no synchronic data on a society, even exhaustive, will suffice to understand it (unless using the general principals of !pataphysics). There are two founding people in this country. The relations between the two is a huge framework of it’s history, most intensively after the creation of the Parti Québecois in 1970. Our brand new constitution (1981), the founding stone of Modern politics in Canada (even if not signed by Québec), the laws on bilinguism, other huge pieces of the Canadian legislation and the law 101 here in Québec all originate from these relations between the two founding people. Guys saying there are more Chinese people than French people in Toronto, so it would make more sense to translate the website in Chinese than in French, which makes sense mathematically and the way you would consider Hispanic services in the South of the USA, are history ignorants in Canada (I am quite sure you know more about our history than they do). Most are too young to remember what shopping was in Montréal before the Seventies. A business that would be stupid and run out of business if not serving it’s French clients in French? At that time, Merlot, English was imposed on us by the English economic elite in the stores and in the workplaces. Markets laws were not prevailing. We have decided at one point that it was enough and we took things into our own hands. It is called the Revolution Tranquille. The two communities were living apart before. They talk to each other today. And that results from one thing: both sides have gained respect for the other. That is the reality; contrary to the mediocre B series movie techman has made of it.

Of course, there will always be dinosaurs, infamously called the “Rhodesians”, who will regret the good old times and who will teach there vision of a balanced Canada: bilinguism in Québec and English in the rest of Canada.

I call it bait and switch.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Merlot,
As others have noticed I’d like to first thank you for your sensibility and general attitude on this matter.

You are right Merlot is very sensible and has a good attitude but YOU are far from it.

Is there something flawed in the law permitting what happened at Air Canada? Contrary to what is often thought, Air Canada does not have the obligation to have French-speaking flight attendants on all their planes or airport services. The obligation exists where the number of French speaking passengers justifies it. It was the case for the 2 flights (Toronto-Atlanta, Toronto-Charletton) and the Toronto airport for which the couple filled complaint. The Superior Court ruled that Air Canada failed to oblige by the law. The Canadian Commissioner of Official Languages has said on numerous occasions in the past that Air Canada fail to respect the law and Air Canada itself admitted violating the law in this specific case. This law has nothing to do with security issues. It says that Canadians, bilingual or not, have the right to be served in one of the 2 official languages when dealing with a federal institution where the demand is large enough.

You fall into those groups of people who believe one group of people have more rights then others. You seem to agree with the airport being sued but not once did you side with the poor Pakistani student who got kicked off the bus for asking the time in English yet the driver spoke English. From your posts you are for the dominance of French over all languages. Why is that? Why should French dominate all other languages? Get over it. English is the economic language of the world. The world are not gonna start communicating in French just for Quebec. Take a look at what happened to Montreal since Expo67. Companies like Sun Life, The Royal Bank, and the Bank of Montreal all moved their head office when this bill was enacted. It goes against the charter of human rights and freedom. Remember they used the notwithstanding clause.

Oh! By the way. I have another number to throw in, and I will not take care to go into the digits. There are 60 000 people living in the Greater Toronto with French as a mother thong. I heard you, wise guy. Some of them do not use it anymore at home. True. Can we just fucking care for those guys. 60 000 people is the size of a city, all of which contained within the Greater Toronto, grossly the one territory deserved by the TTC.

Why should the TTC invest so much money for people that speak English also? Proportions do matter. Especially when the percentage is so low. In fact French is the 12th most spoken language in Toronto. In fact before the TTC translate the website to French they will have to translate it to Chinese. There are way more people who speak Chinese then French. But again you fall into those people who believe French should dominate all other languages. BTW Toronto is not officially a bilingual city. Businesses are not required to offer service in French. The shear proportion does not warrant it.

That’s not worth translating an Internet site, according to a fucking idiot who calls me a xenophobe. The TTC spends 1.3 billion$ every year.

What else can I say. You are speaking like one.

Thousands of French Canadians try to maintain some sort of an identity in Toronto. People like Cloud DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THEM.

And why should I? When guys like you believe French should dominate all other languages? When guys like you say it is ok if servicing in English is refused? You seem to have no problem with that.

This case is about Francophones outside Québec. It has nothing to do with the situation in Québec. It is so God damn mean and opportunistic for the agenda driven radical faction of the pro English group to start whining about their condition. They taught us the lesson about Francophones outside Québec: they are a lost cause. “Speak white, tabarnac”. Tell you what, Merlot: I have ten times more consideration for the anglo community of Montréal than these extremists have for the franco community outside Québec. And that fucking idiot calls me a xenophobe.

Right on. You speak like one. There are many other immigrants in this fine country and you do not see them whining about having services in their own language as you are. They come here they speak their language among themselves and preserve their own culture. As I said in Toronto, if they were to offer services in another language it is gonna be another language before French. Proportions always matter. It has to justify it.

But like all the other xenophobic radicals they believe French should dominate all other languages. What solution can be offered when they say that one group of people have more rights then others?

There are two founding people in this country. The relations between the two is a huge framework of it’s history, most intensively after the creation of the Parti Québecois in 1970. Our brand new constitution (1981), the founding stone of Modern politics in Canada (even if not signed by Québec), the laws on bilinguism, other huge pieces of the Canadian legislation and the law 101 here in Québec all originate from these relations between the two founding people. Guys saying there are more Chinese people than French people in Toronto, so it would make more sense to translate the website in Chinese than in French, which makes sense mathematically and the way you would consider Hispanic services in the South of the USA, are history ignorants in Canada (I am quite sure you know more about our history than they do).

Want to talk about history. Why not read about the FLQ and their activities during the 60's and 70's. They are such fine example of xenophobic extremists.

 

[wasisname]

I only know the english, but is say some guy from the middle east said dirka dirka dirka dirka 7-up. I think I'd clue in that perhaps the guy wanted 7-up.

I'd guess either they were out, or they didn't carry it.

Sprite and 7-up are both Lemon Line sodas. I'll have to order a coke and if I get Pepsi I guess I will have to sue.

I do know that when I drive into Ottawa from Hull all the signs are in both languages, but when I drive into Quebec all the signs are in French, even in the west end of Montreal. Some of those notices sound really important but I have no a clue what they say. Might as well put up signs on the border, Welcome to Quebec, go fuck yourself.

As such I absolutely so sympathy for any french rights outside of Quebec. As a 101 exile, as far as I am concerned west of the Ottawa River and east of New Brunswick, the French language can go fornicate itself. If the Anglos in the rest of Canada had any testicular fortitude they would make the French reap what they they sow. Fair is fair, no English allowed in Quebec, no French should be allowed in Ontario. However that would require standing up for oneselves and we all know that will never happen. Look what happened in Caledonia. If there is one thing Anglos love is getting kicked in the teeth and responding with bowing and scraping.

 

[anon_vlad]

I don't agree that francophones in the rest of Canada should suffer for the perceived slights to anglophones here. Firstly, they don't vote in Quebec. Secondly, at least of few of them are also 101 exiles. Some of them left Quebec to follow the companies which left or to get English language schooling for their children. Thirdly, individuals should be treated with respect and class. Treating every member of a group the same is the definition of racism. Finally, revenge only exacerbates conflicts, providing fodder for extremists.

I'm glad that you at least exempted New Brunswick from your pogrom.

 

[CLOUD 500]

I do know that when I drive into Ottawa from Hull all the signs are in both languages, but when I drive into Quebec all the signs are in French, even in the west end of Montreal. Some of those notices sound really important but I have no a clue what they say. Might as well put up signs on the border, Welcome to Quebec, go fuck yourself.

That is exactly my point and is basically Gugu's point of view. His belief is that French has the right to dominate all other languages. One group of people have more rights then others. There are a lot of tourist coming into Quebec and a lot of them do not speak French. In fact there are many truck drivers coming in from other provinces and they do not speak French. Ontario bother to put up bilingual road signs why can Quebec not do that also? There are way more English people coming into Quebec then there are French people going into Ontario. But there are no bilingual signs in Quebec. In fact Quebec has changed so many street names as they sounded too English. Lol!!!

As such I absolutely so sympathy for any french rights outside of Quebec. As a 101 exile, as far as I am concerned west of the Ottawa River and east of New Brunswick, the French language can go fornicate itself. If the Anglos in the rest of Canada had any testicular fortitude they would make the French reap what they they sow. Fair is fair, no English allowed in Quebec, no French should be allowed in Ontario. However that would require standing up for oneselves and we all know that will never happen. Look what happened in Caledonia. If there is one thing Anglos love is getting kicked in the teeth and responding with bowing and scraping.

I agree with you here also. There is no need for French services in places like Toronto when French is the 12th most spoken language there. Lol! Makes absolutely no sense. English is the business language and we cannot expect the whole world to change just for Quebec. You are right about the Anglos love to get kicked in the teeth. Perfect example is awarding this guy so much money for suing the airport for being greeted in English. So what is the big deal? No one in Quebec seems to mind when a Pakistani student studying at McGill asked the STM driver the time in English he got kicked off the bus and the driver clearly spoke in English. But she refused to speak English? STM's response was that an STM employee is not required to speak English. There is a big difference when a person does not speak French and when a person does speak English but refuses to do so. That is bigotry and shows hate. That is what these xenophobic separatists stand for. Hate and intolerance.

 

[Techman]

Most are too young to remember what shopping was in Montréal before the Seventies. A business that would be stupid and run out of business if not serving it’s French clients in French? At that time, Merlot, English was imposed on us by the English economic elite in the stores and in the workplaces. Markets laws were not prevailing. We have decided at one point that it was enough and we took things into our own hands. It is called the Revolution Tranquille.

And most here are too young to remember bombs going off in mail boxes and train stations. Too young to remember soldiers in the streets or at highschool football games or in front of their friends homes. Too young to remember terrorists being allowed to go free to Cuba and return years later to a hero's welcome. Too young to remember St-Jean and Santa Claus parades being banned because of the possiblity of violence.

I don't remember anyone ever being killed by being spoken to in any particular language. I do remember people being killed by FLQ bombs and one man being strangled to death by FLQ terrorists.

Your revolution wasn't so tranquille after all, was it?

 

[CLOUD 500]

Most are too young to remember what shopping was in Montréal before the Seventies. A business that would be stupid and run out of business if not serving it’s French clients in French? At that time, Merlot, English was imposed on us by the English economic elite in the stores and in the workplaces. Markets laws were not prevailing. We have decided at one point that it was enough and we took things into our own hands. It is called the Revolution Tranquille. The two communities were living apart before.

Oh yes. One last thing. English was never imposed on anyone. There were no laws back then said English signs had to be larger then French ones, all businesses had to operate in English, students had to attend English schools, etc... It just happens that English is the business language of the world and that a lot of people choose to speak English.

But the same cannot be said now. There is now a bill in place to ensure that French dominates all other languages. If the French cannot survive because Quebecors are not doing enough to preserve it or having enough children then it does not deserve to survive. But it is not about preserving a language it is about French dominating all other languages.

You call the revolution during the 60's and 70's calm. It was a period of a lot of violence and great political unrest. I never heard of annoying being killed for speaking French but the FLQ exploded bombs, killed people for their cause. They kidnapped two men. The FLQ was responsible for 160 violent acts which killed eight people and injured many more.

Look at Montreal now as a result of the actions of xenophobic radicals. Montreal was once the economic main city in Canada. But now it is Toronto. Most of the head offices moved to Toronto. No one wants to have a language imposed on them. Toronto in the last twenty years has expanded ten times at the pace of Montreal. There is way more population there. You guys ruined what could have been a great city. Sun Life, The Royal Bank, and Bank of Montreal moved their head office away from Montreal. The Bank of Montreal even thought about removing "Montreal" from their name. This is so sad.

Maybe you need a refresher of what you call a "Tranquille Revolution". Lol!!! Here is a link to your so called history-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLQ

BTW: The two communities still live apart and always will. Even though people are forced to speak in French, people will always continue to speak in the language of their choice among themselves. You cannot assimilate everyone into your own culture. It can never work.

 

[James Joyce]

They kidnapped one man.

Cloud u r wrong, they kidnapped 2 men.

Pierre Laporte Quebec Provincial Cabinet Minister (murdered him), On October 17, just seven days after he went missing, Laporte's body was found in the trunk of Paul Rose's car. His kidnappers were subsequently captured and sentenced to long prison terms for his murder, but only served terms ranging from 7 to 11 years.

James Cross British Diplomat in Montreal held captive for 2 months until his release in exchange for his captors to go to Cuba.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Cloud u r wrong, they kidnapped 2 men.

Oops. Sorry. Thanks. My mistake. I will edit my above post.

 

[wasisname]

Thirdly, individuals should be treated with respect and class.....Finally, revenge only exacerbates conflicts, providing fodder for extremists.

The situation now is far beyond respect and class, hell I'd be happy with a downgrade to respect and class. However revenge is a dish best served with pie. Sweet delicious pie.

 

[sapman99]

Whoa! Time for a few reality checks

Still waiting for an answer as to why French has a divine right to be dominant in Quebec.

Ok. The language legislation was first enacted by a Parti Québécois government. They stayed in power until 1985, to be replaced by the Liberals. The PQ came back in 1994, once again ousted by the Liberals in 2003.

So the Liberals had two periods in power, totalling seventeen years, in which to repel the language laws, yet did not do it, why? Because polling time and again showed the legislation is popular with the majority of Quebecers.

I already anticipate what some of you may say how that speaks to the mentality of Quebecers. I will counter that all of you are either living or visiting here of your own free will :amen:. The rest of Canada is very large, and beckons.

I am tired of arguing the evils and merits of the language legislation. I said before that it is not ideal, but necessary to keep ONE place in North America where French is thriving. A society has made a majority choice to have it so, while the opponents are sticking all kinds of extreme labels on it which have no real merit.

What will happen when there are more "les autres" in Quebec than pur laine? Will they still have the divine right to rule? Sooner or later "Les Quebecois" will no longer be the majority here. What happens then?

Will the champagne you serve the night this event you so obviously anticipate with relish be French?

I do know that when I drive into Ottawa from Hull all the signs are in both languages, but when I drive into Quebec all the signs are in French, even in the west end of Montreal. Some of those notices sound really important but I have no a clue what they say. Might as well put up signs on the border, Welcome to Quebec, go fuck yourself.

As such I absolutely so sympathy for any french rights outside of Quebec. As a 101 exile, as far as I am concerned west of the Ottawa River and east of New Brunswick, the French language can go fornicate itself. If the Anglos in the rest of Canada had any testicular fortitude they would make the French reap what they they sow. Fair is fair, no English allowed in Quebec, no French should be allowed in Ontario. However that would require standing up for oneselves and we all know that will never happen. Look what happened in Caledonia. If there is one thing Anglos love is getting kicked in the teeth and responding with bowing and scraping.

Not only is this declaration insulting beyond belief, it contains countless blatant falsehoods. It is also unfortunately not helping matters any, while it does not come as any surprise. The insults are obvious, but on to the falsehoods:

1. There are no laws preventing multilingual signs in Quebec. The only provision is that French be displayed first and have a bigger typeface. Personally, I think first is ok, but the smaller typeface is a slap at other languages which serves no purpose.
2. English is TOTALLY allowed in Quebec. The restrictions are only in two areas:
   1. Education: only children of parents who had primary school education in English in Canada can go to French school.
   2. Work: French is the primary work language. If the employer can prove another language is required as well, they can include this as employment criteria just like any other skill. I can tell you that most jobs in business or IT require English, and that is as it should be.
3. A big falsehood here is that other provinces have no public education language restrictions. I just looked over Ontario: their criteria is the same, that one of the parents attended primary French school in Canada.

Ontario bother to put up bilingual road signs why can Quebec not do that also?

That is only on 417, linking Ottawa and Montreal. But I agree that Quebec should make highway signs bilingual at least on most of its' southern territory.

And most here are too young to remember bombs going off in mail boxes and train stations. Too young to remember soldiers in the streets or at highschool football games or in front of their friends homes. Too young to remember terrorists being allowed to go free to Cuba and return years later to a hero's welcome. Too young to remember St-Jean and Santa Claus parades being banned because of the possiblity of violence.

I don't remember anyone ever being killed by being spoken to in any particular language. I do remember people being killed by FLQ bombs and one man being strangled to death by FLQ terrorists.

Your revolution wasn't so tranquille after all, was it?

Totally gratuitous. Most actors in the "Quiet Revolution" were Liberals, nothing to do with the events orchestrated by agitators and extremists you described. I deplore all of them as excesses. At the same time, is it a remote possibility they stemmed from helplessness and pent-up frustration? Not at all excusing any of this, just adding a little historical perspective here, which you seem to totally lack.

Never, ever did I think of the FLQ as heroes. All you have to do is watch the reading of the FLQ manifesto on Radio-Canada and the reactions of the reader, Gaétan Montreuil. He is totally appalled at what they are making him read :nod:.

Techman here shows his demagoguery and totally one-sided opinions by lumping the actors of the "Quiet Revolution" and terrorists together. Shameful.

I also really liked how the other day he heaped scorn upon his own customers... Way to go .

 

[Techman]

Ok, Sapman...the first part of your answer is totally off the point. You did not answer the question I asked. WHY DOES FRENCH HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE DOMINANT HERE IN QUEBEC? I don't give a shit who passed what laws. I want to know by what right does French have to be and remain to be the dominant and superiour language here in Quebec.

My comment about the FLQ was not gratuitous. It was a statement of what happened. It is also the reason why I will never aknowledge the right of the French population to dominate any other. It shows what separatists are capable of. Listening to Parizeau blame a referendum loss on "money and the ethnic vote" showed how "inclusive" a society Quebec is. Is that the culture you want to be predominant here? That is what you are so proud of? I sure as hell am not. I'm ashamed to share a history and culture with such racists and murderers.

At the same time, is it a remote possibility they stemmed from helplessness and pent-up frustration?

There is NO JUSTIFICATION for killing innocent people! NONE! I do not give a fuck how frustrated or pent up they were. And don't even try to tell me that your little disclaimer after this line excuses you from posting it. Just the fact that you did has erased any respect I had for you. There is nothing that can excuse the cowardly act of putting bombs in mail boxes to kill innocent people. To kidnap innocent people and kill Pierre Laporte. Did you live with fear of just putting a letter in a mail box? Have soldiers at your school? I did and I will never forgive these separatist extremists and I will never forget what they are capable of.

And I never heaped scorn upon any of my customers. I stated the facts as they exist. I did not blame them nor will I for their lack of language ability. I just posted it to show that not only are there English who cannot or do not learn French, there exists another side of the coin as well.

Maybe you think it's fine that the French population here in Quebec does not have freedom of language of education but I do not. And many of the French population feel the same way or else why would there be court cases every year from French families wanting to have their children educated in english? The law you are so fond of that prevents immigrants from having a choice also removes that choice from the majority in this province.

As for why I live here, I was born here, this is my home. I will not let racists and xenophobes push me out of my home. Not now, not ever.

 

[James Joyce]

Totally gratuitous. Most actors in the "Quiet Revolution" were Liberals, nothing to do with the events orchestrated by agitators and extremists you described. I deplore all of them as excesses. At the same time, is it a remote possibility they stemmed from helplessness and pent-up frustration? Not at all excusing any of this, just adding a little historical perspective here, which you seem to totally lack.

Ok ok let's attempt to take it down a notch. In the above, u mention helplessness & frustration, so my question to u is who caused these feelings of helplessness & frustration ? Who is this anger directed towards ?

In order to better understand one another's points of view maybe a historical perspective should be shared on both sides of the divide.

 

[CLOUD 500]

So the Liberals had two periods in power, totalling seventeen years, in which to repel the language laws, yet did not do it, why? Because polling time and again showed the legislation is popular with the majority of Quebecers.

Wrong. If they did they would start a civil war in Quebec. Take a look at the FLQ's activities? There would be another row of terrorist activities.

I am tired of arguing the evils and merits of the language legislation. I said before that it is not ideal, but necessary to keep ONE place in North America where French is thriving. A society has made a majority choice to have it so, while the opponents are sticking all kinds of extreme labels on it which have no real merit.

If French is thriving then there is no need for a bill to enforce French? But the real issue here is for French to dominate all other languages. As Techman asked I also would like to know is why should French dominate all other languages? Is their any reason for that?


[*]A big falsehood here is that other provinces have no public education language restrictions. I just looked over Ontario: their criteria is the same, that one of the parents attended primary French school in Canada.
[/LIST][/QUOTE]

I dunno about this. I lived in Ontario and I had a friend who was an immigrant that attended a French school.

That is only on 417, linking Ottawa and Montreal. But I agree that Quebec should make highway signs bilingual at least on most of its' southern territory.Totally gratuitous. Most actors in the "Quiet Revolution" were Liberals, nothing to do with the events orchestrated by agitators and extremists you described. I deplore all of them as excesses. At the same time, is it a remote possibility they stemmed from helplessness and pent-up frustration? Not at all excusing any of this, just adding a little historical perspective here, which you seem to totally lack.

Wrong again. Bilingual signs are also on Highway 401 near the Ontario Quebec border. I drive on that highway very often.

And how are they helpless? Look at the activities of the FLQ? Murdering and committing acts of violence to have French dominate all other language is what generated frustration and resentment.

About the quiet revolution. The FLQ caused a lot of conflict. Then they decided that this was not the way and that do it peacefully is what you called the quiet revolution. This happened after all the attacks, murdering, and kidnapping. In addition the activities of the FLQ carried on to as far as 2006 if I am not mistaken.

 

[sapman99]

One - More - Time

My comment about the FLQ was not gratuitous.

It was in the low-blow way you lumped the FLQ into the Quiet Revolution, a total falsehood.

It is also the reason why I will never aknowledge the right of the French population to dominate any other. It shows what separatists are capable of. Listening to Parizeau blame a referendum loss on "money and the ethnic vote" showed how "inclusive" a society Quebec is. Is that the culture you want to be predominant here? That is what you are so proud of? I sure as hell am not. I'm ashamed to share a history and culture with such racists and murderers.

So, a few rotten apples make you renounce YOUR entire heritage?

There is NO JUSTIFICATION for killing innocent people! NONE! I do not give a fuck how frustrated or pent up they were.

A) you sound pretty frustrated right here and B) I am not the one who boasted about bringing his gun to a GT to keep the peace or calling his "large friends"...

And don't even try to tell me that your little disclaimer after this line excuses you from posting it. Just the fact that you did has erased any respect I had for you.

Like I said, I never sought to excuse what they did, it was horrible. Thank you for not quoting the rest of my post where I clearly state how reprehensible these acts were. As for respect, the way in which YOU are behaving yourself on this issue has done the same for me.

Wrong. If they did they would start a civil war in Quebec. Take a look at the FLQ's activities? There would be another row of terrorist activities.

Another one who trots out the FLQ skeleton. The FLQ is DEAD, and no one in today's Quebec would condone any such thing. The only ones that would gain from terrorist activities would be nay-sayers of the language laws.

Wrong again. Bilingual signs are also on Highway 401 near the Ontario Quebec border. I drive on that highway very often.

And how are they helpless? Look at the activities of the FLQ? Murdering and committing acts of violence to have French dominate all other language is what generated frustration and resentment.

About the quiet revolution. The FLQ caused a lot of conflict. Then they decided that this was not the way and that do it peacefully is what you called the quiet revolution. This happened after all the attacks, murdering, and kidnapping. In addition the activities of the FLQ carried on to as far as 2006 if I am not mistaken.

Ok, on highway 401 near the Quebec border, I sit corrected. Thank you again, for not including my quote that I believe Quebec should do the same. It serves to get your point across much better .

You make the FLQ sound as though it is a representative of the French population of Quebec. It was never more than an extremist group of hotheads. And you too, are lumping Quiet Revolution and FLQ together, wrong again and totally meant to defame French Quebec's image. Yes, some very marginal events have been tagged "FLQ" in the recent past, but this is the same as some crack-head vandalizing and then tagging it "white power" in spray paint. Nothing more.

In order to better understand one another's points of view maybe a historical perspective should be shared on both sides of the divide.

I have some things to do today, but I am quite willing to take some time in the next day or two to do this. I have plenty to say that may be enlightening. But then again, I see little hope with some here to see any kind of light...

 

[James Joyce]

I have some things to do today, but I am quite willing to take some time in the next day or two to do this. I have plenty to say that may be enlightening. But then again, I see little hope with some here to see any kind of light...

Wouldn't it have been more productive to have omitted the very last line ? Or do all sides in this have to continually take shots at one another ? Maybe the toning down of these quasi personal shots might open up some ears and then some learning and understanding might begin.

 

[Techman]

A) you sound pretty frustrated right here and B) I am not the one who boasted about bringing his gun to a GT to keep the peace or calling his "large friends"...

Really? Could you please find the quote where I said either of that? The only time I ever mentioned a gun was in a joking reply about bringing a gun so that someone, I can't remember who, could play Russian roulette. I have no need of a gun to 'keep the peace' or to protect myself. Don't need any 'large friends' either. Either post the quote or retract it. Back up your bullshit for once.

You can't post an excuse for inexcusable actions and then distance yourself from it. If you were able to come up with the excuse in the first place that means you feel it is justified.

Stop being an apologist for the FLQ and the separatist movement and then say 'but I don't believe in that'. Come out of the closet Sap and show your true colours.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain why French has the right to dominate over all other languages. You're still avoiding that important question aren't you? I guess that's because you don't have an answer for that because there is no answer for it. French doesn't have any right to be dominant. It isn't strong enough to be in that position on it's own and so it needs laws to guarantee it.

I have said it before and will say it again here: Any language or culture that by law is put in a superiour position over all others is discrimination and racist. It is based on the insecurity that on it's own, the culture is not strong enough to maintain that position. And if you claim that laws are required to prevent it's disappearance, then I will ask you where are the laws to prevent the extinction of the native cultures and languages that are in real need of protection as they are much closer to the brink of extinction, not only in Canada but in the world, than French is.

What kind of a society has laws to prevent their own people from having freedom of choice when it comes to education? Will the culture be so willingly abandoned by it's own people? If that is the case, if it is so inherently weak, why prolong the inevitable? You might be surprised to see that the culture will thrive without laws to force it down people's throats. So what if families decide to have their children educated for a few years in English? What is so terrible about having a truly bilingual society? What is to be gained by preventing people from expanding their horizons?

It's a terrible thing to see a culture so afraid and so insecure that it believes it must have such total control over it's populace.

 

[CLOUD 500]

You make the FLQ sound as though it is a representative of the French population of Quebec. It was never more than an extremist group of hotheads. And you too, are lumping Quiet Revolution and FLQ together, wrong again and totally meant to defame French Quebec's image. Yes, some very marginal events have been tagged "FLQ" in the recent past, but this is the same as some crack-head vandalizing and then tagging it "white power" in spray paint. Nothing more.I have some things to do today, but I am quite willing to take some time in the next day or two to do this. I have plenty to say that may be enlightening. But then again, I see little hope with some here to see any kind of light...

I cannot comment on if the FLQ is representative of the French population. I have not taken any statistics and they got their Bill which ensures the dominance of the French language. Take away that bill and let us see what happens. Then we will know for sure. Even though the FLQ is dead, the events still happened and that will never go away. It demonstrates what the people were capable of doing to have French dominate other languages. I will always have a poor image of French Quebec due to those events of the 60's and 70's. I will always resent the fact that French is enforced on me.

As a matter of fact very often I come across French people who get so irritated and angry when I speak in English. Some of these people became rude. These people speak both languages but hate English. What else should I call them? Xenophobes and discriminatory. It has happened quite often. I always tell them that they can speak whatever language they choose as I understand both of them but I will speak the language of my choice. Do you think after running into these kinds of people I will have a positive image of French Quebec?

I lost hope a long time ago that some will see any kind of light. This Bill 101 removes the freedom of expression. If French cannot survive without this law then it does not deserve to survive. It is obvious if people were given the choice they would choose to speak English. English is the main business language of the world. But it is the French Quebecors that can preserve their own language and culture. But they want the language to dominate all others.

But you still have not answered the question as to why French should dominate all other languages? Is there any legitimate reason?