Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

[General Gonad]

Ethnics do not come to Canada or Quebec with a union background or mentality.

Bullshit. Moreover, you are focusing on first generation immigrants while I am speaking of second generation immigrants who speak both official languages fluently. Why are these people being shut out of Quebec's civil service? Let's call a spade a spade: it's institutionalized racism. If you do want to see it, then you're blind.

GG

 

[eastender]

Civil Service vs Union

Bullshit. Moreover, you are focusing on first generation immigrants while I am speaking of second generation immigrants who speak both official languages fluently. Why are these people being shut out of Quebec's civil service? Let's call a spade a spade: it's institutionalized racism. If you do want to see it, then you're blind.

GG

Union does not equal civil service.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Employees of the Treasury Board

The real problem is ethnic underrepresentation.

However, Francophones may lament being underrepresented in the management, technical, scientific and professional groups. Anglophones currently hold 70% of all management positions whereas Francophones hold the remaining 30%.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

"Second generation immigrants" and the culture of unions

Bullshit. Moreover, you are focusing on first generation immigrants while I am speaking of second generation immigrants who speak both official languages fluently. Why are these people being shut out of Quebec's civil service? Let's call a spade a spade: it's institutionalized racism. If you do want to see it, then you're blind.

GG

The total Canadian immigration population between 1991-2001 amounts to 1,830,000, 23% are born in Eastern Asia, 16% in Southern Asia, 10% in South-East Asia, 9% in West-Central Asia and the Middle East, 6% in Central and South America, 9% in Eastern Europe, 8% in Africa... (http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo24a.htm)

In other words, roughly 85% of the Canadian immigration population between 1991 and 2001 are born in non-unionized regions.

The numbers validate EE's statement.

 

[General Gonad]

The Reconquest of Montreal: Language Policy and Social Change in a Bilingual

However, Francophones may lament being underrepresented in the management, technical, scientific and professional groups. Anglophones currently hold 70% of all management positions whereas Francophones hold the remaining 30%.

Ziggy,

Please provide a link to your quote. For those of you who want to read more on the history of underrepesentation, I suggest Marc Levine's book, "The Reconquest of Montreal: Language Policy and Social Change in a Bilingual City". Here is a link to the book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1C...ts=ZtfAv_T7IL&sig=QmYdtufYUZbZJ4KjT_Pir9jTh60

On page 218, the author notes that despite several integration policies by the Quebec government, "ethnic minorities remain woefully underrepresented in Montreal city government and in Quebec's provincial government, constituting under 4 per cent in both."

As far as Ziggy's immigration statistics, I would emphasize two things: (1) Asians do not make up the largest percentage of immigrants in Quebec (Lebanese, Hatians, Greeks, Italians and Jews do) and (2) once working in Canada, immigrants are informed about civil service jobs. They do not remain ignorant on what jobs exist here or about the benefits of working in the public sector.

GG

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Link and disclaimer

Please provide a link to your quote.

http://www.psagency-agencefp.gc.ca/reports-rapports/ol-lo/arol-ralo05-06-2_e.asp#table12

See table 13. My 30% is on average.

As far as Ziggy's immigration statistics, I would emphasize two things: (1) Asians do not make up the largest percentage of immigrants in Quebec (Lebanese, Hatians, Greeks, Italians and Jews do) and (2) once working in Canada, immigrants are informed about civil service jobs. They do not remain ignorant on what jobs exist here or about the benefits of working in the public sector.

GG

Disclaimer: the statistics provided served only to illustrate EE's statement: "Furthermore the concept of belonging to a union is alien to many immigrant groups [sic]". Never addressed the issue of civil service jobs.

Your last post speaks of Italians, Jews and Greeks whereas before you spoke of "2nd generation of immigrants". Confusing. Can you define 1st and 2nd generations in terms of population groups and periods of immigration?

 

[General Gonad]

proves my point...

http://www.psagency-agencefp.gc.ca/reports-rapports/ol-lo/arol-ralo05-06-2_e.asp#table12

See table 13. My 30% is on average.

Disclaimer: the statistics provided served only to illustrate EE's statement: "Furthermore the concept of belonging to a union is alien to many immigrant groups [sic]". Never addressed the issue of civil service jobs.

Ziggy,

Thank you for providing this link. Please note the following statistics on employment equity:

http://www.psagency-agencefp.gc.ca/reports-rapports/ee-0501_e.asp#_Toc143307373

"Chapter 2
Embracing Change: A Continuing Need for Action

In June 2000, the government endorsed the Embracing Change Action Plan. This five-year strategy, prepared by the Task Force on Visible Minorities in the Federal Public Service, recommended measures to eliminate the gap between the representation of visible minorities in the public service and their growing presence in the Canadian workforce. The Task Force recognized that visible minorities were becoming an increasingly crucial talent pool for public service renewal and the provision of services for a new and more diverse generation of Canadians.
Some Progress

Even though it is possible to signal progress in improving representation, significant under-representation still exists. As of March 2005, the public service was three quarters of the way to its workforce availability goal of 10.4 per cent of employees from visible minority groups. This goal, deriving from information collected in the 2001 Census, is in itself a lagging indicator, given the impact of immigration on the diversity of the Canadian population. The next census - to be conducted in the spring of 2006 - will undoubtedly establish a higher goal for the public service, further reinforcing the need for more and faster progress in becoming representative."

>>The federal government admits that despite these efforts, there is a significant need to improve employment equity in the federal civil service. I can guarantee you that you will not find comparable statistics for the Quebec civil service (if you do, please share).

As far as management is concerned, francophones still represent 30% in the federal civil service, which is very decent. In fact, it's a hell of a lot better than the percentage of anglophones and allophones in the management positions of the Quebec civil service.

GG

 

[J. Peterman]

Doggies and kitties.

The anglophone population is being assimulated into the Quebec culture, as some ( not all ) of the francaphone culture is assimulated into the angle culture. It is becuase it is acceptable for anglos and francos to be seen with each other and marry each other that this is happening. The young people have also figured out that we all live in a would economy now and it is an advantage to speak more than one language.
An analogy of the situation is to take a room with 70 brown cats, and 15 white cats and 15 grey cats. the leave them to breed by themselves. After a few generations you will find very pure brown, white or grey cats.

 

[General Gonad]

Your last post speaks of Italians, Jews and Greeks whereas before you spoke of "2nd generation of immigrants". Confusing. Can you define 1st and 2nd generations in terms of population groups and periods of immigration?

From page 10 of Marc Levine's book:

"By 1971, as Jews, Italians, Greeks and Portuguese joined the English-speaking community, British Montrealers constituted only 61 percent of the Island's English-speaking community and only 37 percent of Montreal's entire non-Francophone community."

That was over thirty years ago. Since then, these immigrants have had kids that were educated in English and French universities. Why is it that those second generation children of immigrants who are more than capable of working in the civil service, are effectively shut out? Is it possible that institutional racism reigns in Quebec's civil service? I think so and it will be difficult to convince me that this is not the primary factor explaining under-representation of ethnic minorities in Quebec's civil service.

GG

 

[eastender]

Pure Laine Irish,Scottish,English

The anglophone population is being assimulated into the Quebec culture, as some ( not all ) of the francaphone culture is assimulated into the angle culture. It is becuase it is acceptable for anglos and francos to be seen with each other and marry each other that this is happening. The young people have also figured out that we all live in a would economy now and it is an advantage to speak more than one language.
An analogy of the situation is to take a room with 70 brown cats, and 15 white cats and 15 grey cats. the leave them to breed by themselves. After a few generations you will find very pure brown, white or grey cats.

You raise an interesting point with your analogy. In the east end of Montreal and other parts of the province - Estrie, Mauricie there are people with Irish Scottish or English surnames that are unilingual French. Male ancestors arrived in Quebec in the 1840 - 1860 era, married and lived in the French community but the family name survived while the language did not.

 

[eastender]

Time Lines

From page 10 of Marc Levine's book:

"By 1971, as Jews, Italians, Greeks and Portuguese joined the English-speaking community, British Montrealers constituted only 61 percent of the Island's English-speaking community and only 37 percent of Montreal's entire non-Francophone community."

That was over thirty years ago. Since then, these immigrants have had kids that were educated in English and French universities. Why is it that those second generation children of immigrants who are more than capable of working in the civil service, are effectively shut out? Is it possible that institutional racism reigns in Quebec's civil service? I think so and it will be difficult to convince me that this is not the primary factor explaining under-representation of ethnic minorities in Quebec's civil service.

GG

Jews,Italians, eastern Europeans all arrived in Quebec before WWI.Others between the two world wars. Greeks and Portuguese after WWII along with Italians and eastern Europeans who chose not to return to their Soviet Bloc country of origin.The kids of these immigrants waves were educated in English schools as a rule and a great many of them were/are multilingual(three or more languages).

If you include elementary and high school teachers as part of the civil service then all of the aforementionned groups/waves had and still have significant representation. Ethnic teachers were in demand and still are.

When the various ethnic groups and waves arrived they noticed the need for
professionals within their community and the brightest and the best ethnic students were directed to these professions. An ethnic doctor, dentist, lawyer, notary, etc had a ready practice upon graduation. The community was more than willing to absorb the start-up costs. Likewise in business, commerce and other specialized fields the young ethnic university grad had significantly greater opportunities than the French university grad. Most important of all the aforementionned paid significantly better and were "meritocracy" based as opposed to seniority.

Today the situation has not changed significantly. You talk about percentage representation in the civil service BUT who is going to accept a job that pays less then they can earn within their own community or elsewhere in the world based on their merits. No parent is going to tell their child I want you to be underpaid.These people are not shut-out,they simply earn more elsewhere.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Racism

From page 10 of Marc Levine's book:

"By 1971, as Jews, Italians, Greeks and Portuguese joined the English-speaking community, British Montrealers constituted only 61 percent of the Island's English-speaking community and only 37 percent of Montreal's entire non-Francophone community."

That was over thirty years ago. Since then, these immigrants have had kids that were educated in English and French universities. Why is it that those second generation children of immigrants who are more than capable of working in the civil service, are effectively shut out? Is it possible that institutional racism reigns in Quebec's civil service? I think so and it will be difficult to convince me that this is not the primary factor explaining under-representation of ethnic minorities in Quebec's civil service.

GG

GG,

Your body of work is all over the place and presents a conclusion that can't be assessed (racism).

A prime example of institutional racism would be the 1935 U.S. Social Security Act which textually excluded domestic and agricultural workers, most of which being Mexican-, African- and Asian-Americans, from receiving guaranteed income after retirement.

There is no similar discriminatory Act in Quebec, let alone in Canada. Your theory is groundless.

Your development furthermore confuses union/civil, Anglos/immigrants, 2nd generation immigrants/sons of 1st generation immigrants. On this last item, your logic is also flawed.

Sons of immigrants are not immigrants therefore their representativity in core public administrations can't be considered as such.

Irrespective of their parent's knowledge of official languages, the same sons of immigrants are not necessarily strictly English-speakers. Being born in Quebec, they were immersed in a French-speaking environment from birth and have likely grown into being Francophones or Allophones.

The claim that sons of immigrants are being "shut out" overshadows the possibility that the said sons are pursuing other opportunities.

 

[General Gonad]

Your body of work is all over the place and presents a conclusion that can't be assessed (racism).

A prime example of institutional racism would be the 1935 U.S. Social Security Act which textually excluded domestic and agricultural workers, most of which being Mexican-, African- and Asian-Americans from receiving guaranteed income after retirement.

There is no similar discriminatory Act in Quebec, let alone in Canada. Your theory is groundless.

Ziggy,

My accusation of institutionalized racism is not based discriminatory legislation, but is grounded in facts, namely, the woeful representation of ethnics and anglophones at all levels of Quebec's civil service. Go back and read the report from the Canadian Jewish Congress; it covers my main concerns (without, or course, accusing the Quebec government of institutionalized racism).

As for what constitutes an immigrant or ethnic, I think if your name sounds funny to a 'pure laine Quebecois', you can consider yourself an ethnic or even an anglo. Yes, these second generation immigrants are pursuing other opportunities, but this may be because they are so discouraged with the opportunities in Quebec's civil service. No doubt in my mind that this has something to do with it since many opt to leave Montreal and go work in Ottawa instead of Quebec city or here.

I'm english and I don't recall english classes being a total breeze. What catecory id dumber than a moron ?

The point was I wouldn't want to be going into Engineering at Queens if I hadn't been to english Cegep or highschool.

Equanimity,

I never said learning English properly is a breeze but learning functional English is a lot easier than learning functional French. I personally know enough French Canadians that left a French CEGEP to pursue their studies in Ontario and the United States. They managed to do exceptionally well.

GG

 

[z/m(Ret)]

My accusation of institutionalized racism is not based discriminatory legislation, but is grounded in facts [...]

Interpretation of the facts, not facts.

[...] namely, the woeful representation of ethnics and anglophones at all levels of Quebec's civil service. Go back and read the report from the Canadian Jewish Congress; it covers my main concerns (without, or course, accusing the Quebec government of institutionalized racism).

As explained before, lack of representation may well be explained by lack of interest or lack of incentives. Canadian Jewish Congress Report only expresses concerns over numbers of Jewish representatives. It doesn't provide any explanation.

Yes, these second generation immigrants are pursuing other opportunities, but this may be because they are so discouraged with the opportunities in Quebec's civil service. No doubt in my mind that this has something to do with it since many opt to leave Montreal and go work in Ottawa instead of Quebec city or here.

Can hardly think of anyone being discouraged with making a better pay outside the public administration.

 

[General Gonad]

Interpretation of the facts, not facts.

As explained before, lack of representation may well be explained by lack of interest or lack of incentives. Canadian Jewish Congress Report only expresses concerns over numbers of Jewish representatives. It doesn't provide any explanation.

Can hardly think of anyone being discouraged with making a better pay outside the public administration.

Well then Ziggy, how do you interpret these facts? Is it just that anglos and allophones are finding better paying jobs elsewhere? Is it the cultural background of ethnics? I think you are underestimating the level of frustration that ethnics and anglos have in regards to getting jobs in la fonction publique here in Quebec.

The CJC report is not just about Jewish representatives. Read it again carefully. I quote from the French version:

http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=region&Region=2

"Les leaders québécois, quelle que soit leur orientation politique, doivent cesser de chercher des excuses pour justifier les résultats déplorables au chapitre de la discrimination. Ils doivent s’assurer que les Québécois de toutes les origines aient les mêmes chances de s’intégrer dans la société en prenant des mesures fermes et immédiates pour ouvrir la fonction publique à tous. Le vrai combat pour mettre fin au racisme et à la discrimination ne pourra débuter que quand le gouvernement aura finalement décidé d’injecter assez de fonds publics dans des programmes destinés à éliminer la sous-représentation des non-francophones dans la fonction publique. Les véritables rapprochements entre groupes culturels ont lieu dans le milieu du travail, et c’est là que la lutte contre le racisme et la discrimination doit commencer sérieusement."


This criticism is dead on. In fact, it's the best criticism I've read thus far and given that it is the CJC, the Quebec government will be careful (and politely ignore it).

GG

 

[ParChance]

GG,

What makes you think that members of some ethnic groups are even remotely interested in working as a civil servant whether it be at whatever governmental level ?

As some have mentioned, certain cultures aren't in the least interested in working as a unionized worker and the last I heard, that is the only way you can work in the civil service.

Not to mention a dead end job that has no future as far as pay scales go. I have taught my children to always want to better themselves, whether that be to strive for higher pay or higher achievement, hopefully both. I don't believe that either criterea can be achieved working as a civil servent. Pushing papers & all in the hopes of finally after x years earning maybe 80k is not something to strive for IMO. Some cultures teach their youth to prefer to be masters of their own domains for several reasons, one which may be their fear of being discriminated against.

But I may be wrong and stand to be corrected.

 

[General Gonad]

Some cultures teach their youth to prefer to be masters of their own domains for several reasons, one which may be their fear of being discriminated against.

I agree with you on one level: being a "master of your own domain" means you never have to answer to anyone else and nobody can discriminate against you because of the color of your skin or your ethnic background.

But we also have to be realistic here. Many second generation ethnics do not want to take over their parents' business. They went to school, got an education and prefer working for a company and yes, even the government.

Trust me, when the next recession hits, demand for civil service jobs will skyrocket. In a recent federal government report, public sector jobs were much higher paying than private sector jobs (on average), especially when you factor in the health and retirement benefits.

I am not arguing that you should teach your kids to become civil servants. But I am arguing that Quebec's civil service is woefully inadequate in properly representing Quebec's minorities. As far as I am concerned, this is unacceptable and lot of it has to do with racist bureaucrats who do not want ethnics or anglos in Quebec's civil service.

The ugly truth is when Parizeau blurted his comment after the last referendum, his views represented those of the racists who dominate Quebec's civil service.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

I thought that was being able to not have sex or masturbate for a month.

Unfortunately, I am not able to perform self-felatio, so I can never truly become master of my own domain.



GG

 

[General Gonad]

I have seen Francophones make fun of other people's French, thinking their English was perfect when this absolutely wasn't the case. Obviously, you can see Anglos do the same but I think it is more common for Francophones to THINK they have mastered the other language when if fact they haven't quite.

Agreed...big pet peeve of mine! I have seen many "osti tabernac peppers" who can't speak French or English properly mock others who make the effort to speak in French. These are ignorant fools.

GG

 

[Techman]

Considering much of what you see posted on the net these days, you would have to look far and wide to find people who have a decent mastery of either language. I remember the JdM doing a story, last year I think, about the poor quality of French being used in advertising in Quebec. With schools not even bothering to test for grammar and spelling these days, not to mention the popularity of text messaging with it's various shortcuts, it's not really any surprise.

For the English part of it, I put the blame on Prince. Wasn't it he who began the craze of replacing words with their numerical sound a likes in his song titles?

Still love his music though!

Techman