Are Quebec's anglophones at risk?

[Techman]

Does the 'death' of the English culture in Quebec compare to the death of the French culture in Alberta?

What French culture in Alberta? There was never a French culture in Alberta! The English have been in Quebec pretty much as long as the French so how can you compare the two?

And how can you call Trudeau a racist? What he wanted was equality for both English and French. And the minority has the same rights as the majority. Like it or not. Just not here in Quebec. How would you feel if the rest of Canada decided that English was the only official language as Quebec declared with French? If the rest of Canada had laws prohibiting French from public signs or forced it to be half the size?

And who is lamenting the loss of majority rights in favour of a minority...?
Not the rest of Canada! It seems that this is happening only here in Quebec. What a surprise!

Cultures only die out when the young can't be educated in their parents values, language, religion, etc. Is that the case here?

Is there any risk of this happening to the French culture here in Quebec? Not really. So why are laws required to restrict access to English schools if not to undermine the English system as a whole. Forcing immigrants to speak French does not help the Quebecois culture survive. All it does is create other cultures who speak French! I don't think you will see any immigrants leading a Fete St-Jean crowd in a rendition of Gens de Pays anytime soon!

Is the English language in danger of vanishing from Quebec? No, it isn't because it will always be required for business dealings. But the English community is in danger.

You want to preserve a culture? Then have children, teach your culture to them. With pride. Promote it. Embrace it. Prove that it deserves to survive. If you can't do that without denigrating another language and culture then it doesn't deserve to survive.

Techman

 

[jacep]

One note on the language issue in schools that I thought that I would mention which was never brought up. If parents who are eligible to send thier kids to a public English school decide to send their kids to a French school, the kids automatically lose the right to have their own kids taught in English.

My sister for example (who was educated in English in the province of Quebec), decided to send her daughter to a French school. Since she was educated in English in the province of Quebec (or in Canada), my sister had a choice between sending her daughter (my niece) to an English school or a French school. She decided to send her to a French school since she felt that my niece could learn English at home. It wasn't until later on that my sister discovered that she should have sent her daughter to a French-immersion school as opposed to a French-only school.

The law specifies the language that the parents received their instruction in (whether it be English or French in the province of Quebec) it doesn't specify the language of instruction for the grandparents. If the English eligible grandparent had decided to send his kid to a French school, that kid would only be allowed to send his/her kid to a French school.

 

[Techman]

Dee, yes your post does indeed detail a French community in Alberta. But nowhere do I remember any claim to a Franco-albertan 'culture'. It takes more than a language to define a culture. Do Muslims or Jews have a common language that defines their cultures? They speak many languages in many countries. There is even a large Jewish population in China and there's a pretty good chance that they speak...Chinese! I wish people would stop using a language to define a culture. It takes a little more than that.

Techman

 

[Dee]

Boy it's an issue one just can't get away from... again as a matter of interest i post this CBC article I just stumbled across.

Maybe I should explain why I don't want to participate in the debate.....

I'm a little sucky here maybe... but I think I truly do understand the frustartions of both sides... I have absolutely no clue on how to begin to resolve things...

I love French. I love Quebec. I've expended an enormous amount of time and energy learning the language to the extent I have. My experiences have been 99.999999% positive.

But my job and income have never been effected by any language considerations, one way or the other.

It saddens me to witness the debate but I'm lucky becaause I've never had to meet the problems others have had to.

-------------------------------
Quebec dentist barred from practising after failing French test

Last Updated: Thursday, September 20, 2007 | 7:01 PM ET

CBC News


A Quebec dentist who speaks French fluently has lost his right to practise in the province after failing a written French test four times.
"Honestly, I feel I can't say how I feel," Mahmoud Raisi said Thursday after learning he would be denied the permanent licence he needs to continue serving patients in Aylmer, Quebec. "I'm speechless in that department."

Raisi, who also speaks Persian, English and Spanish, moved to Aylmer from Ottawa, which is 10 kilometres away across the Quebec-Ontario border, four years ago and has been practising dentistry under a temporary licence.

During that time, he said he has built a clientele of 2,000 patients and has had no language-related problems.
But Quebec's language charter requires certain professionals born out of the province to pass both oral and written language tests in four tries or fewer, unless they studied high school or university in Quebec.

After four unsuccessful attempts, they can no longer practise under a temporary licence.

A spokesperson for Quebec's language office said dentists must be able to write at the university level, and that's what Dr. Raisi will have to do if he wants to practise in the province again.

Raisi passed the oral test, but scored only 50 per cent on his fourth and final chance at the written test. He needed 60 per cent to pass.
Now, he said he is considering leaving the province.

"I'm not the first one [and] I won't be the last one to leave Quebec because of the language," he said. "But if that's the way to … protect the French language, then all the best for them."

An advocate for anglophones in Quebec said he thinks the province needs all the health professionals it can get and is making a big mistake.
"Chasing away our professionals on the basis of a written exam in French ... in my view is not a good idea," said Richard Turcotte, executive director of the Regional Association of West Quebecers.

Meanwhile, Raisi's patients, including Marie-Thée Pelletier, say they don't think it's right that Raisi has to leave because of his test result.
"I talk to him in French all the time. He understands everything," Pelletier said. "I find this event — that they stop him from practising — terrible, because we are losing our dentist."

 

[Techman]

I don't wish to participate in the debate... I just point out the following as a matter of interest... its not commomly known:

1877 French and English are the official languages of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories (which at that time included Alberta). Citizens are able to express themselves in either language in schools and before the courts. Registers and orders must be published in both languages.

-------------

While [now] Alberta’s official language is English, Albertans would be surprised to know that French was the first European language spoken in Alberta. This is due to the fact that many of the first settlers to the province were of French Canadian origin. These origins are still visible today and according to the 2001 Census, 332,675 Albertans, or more than 1 in 10, are of French descent.

Today, ... approximately 65,990 Albertans are Francophone. Alberta’s Francophones, or Franco Albertans, are spread out throughout the Province. The highest concentration of Franco-Albertans can be found in the two metropolitan regions of Edmonton and Calgary, and many communities in northern Alberta, particularly in the Peace Country and St. Paul regions, are still predominantly French speaking. Three municipalities are officially bilingual, Beaumont (15 km southeast of Edmonton), Legal (35 km north of Edmonton) and Falher (420 km northwest of Edmonton).

-----------------

Additionally here's an interesting fact about Manitoba:

It all began with a speeding ticket. Canada's Supreme Court has ruled that an English-only traffic ticket violated the 1870 Manitoba Act. The province's founding document gave equal status to French and English in provincial courts and the legislature, but in 1890 Manitoba revoked French rights. With the ruling, all 4,000-plus laws written in English and passed since then are invalid.

I really failed to realize something when I originally replied to this post. Did anyone notice that there is a French population that exists in Alberta, in harmony with everyone else, and that it didn't take any laws to downgrade anyone's rights to achieve this miracle? And they seem to have been able to retain their identity as well as their culture and rights?

While at the same time, here in Quebec where the French population is in a vastly superior majority position still requires laws to 'protect' it from the measly 8.3% of the population that is English.

Tell me again how there is no inherent inferiority complex in French Quebec! Tell me again how the French language and culture in Quebec is in danger! Tell me again why these repressive laws are required!
Yeah right.

Techman

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Best available explanation

Well then Ziggy, how do you interpret these facts?

Certainly not subscribing to the thesis of racism because it's not factual. Blaming the government for ethnics being underrepresented accredits the thesis of racism only if we believe in sophisms. It's like accusing the NHL of racism because there is no player originating from the Middle East.

Who accuses has the burden of the proof. Until proof is produced, the best available explanation is ethnics lack of interest for civil jobs.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

We, privileged

I love French. I love Quebec. I've expended an enormous amount of time and energy learning the language to the extent I have. My experiences have been 99.999999% positive.

Your gain, their loss. Why amputate ourselves when we have the privilege of a double culture.

 

[sapman99]

I really failed to realize something when I originally replied to this post. Did anyone notice that there is a French population that exists in Alberta, in harmony with everyone else, and that it didn't take any laws to downgrade anyone's rights to achieve this miracle? And they seem to have been able to retain their identity as well as their culture and rights?

While at the same time, here in Quebec where the French population is in a vastly superior majority position still requires laws to 'protect' it from the measly 8.3% of the population that is English.

Tell me again how there is no inherent inferiority complex in French Quebec! Tell me again how the French language and culture in Quebec is in danger! Tell me again why these repressive laws are required!
Yeah right.

Techman

My ex emigrated from Romania in 2000. Since she was just learning French and had a good command of English, she checked the "English" box whenever asked which language she wanted to be corresponded with at the Québec government level.

Ain't no such box in Alberta.

They are in harmony because they only speak French among themselves. Keeping "their small place", like an ethnic community.

Denial of service is another, less talked about way, of keeping a minority "in it's place". Need I again say "Ontario". And as far as legislation goes, Québec didn't invent anything new, they recycled an old Ontario idea "Règlements 17 et 18"....

 

[Techman]

Why is it that people continue to bring up situations outside of Quebec? They are of no relevance to the discussion! Why do some people try to use them as excuses for the policies of Quebec? Quebec is responsible for what happens here, no other province or country. Quebec alone!

Circulaire d'instruction no 17
sur les écoles séparées de l'Ontario
pour l'année scolaire 1912-1913

​

Circular of Instructions for the School Year,
September to June, 1912-1913

​

Are you trying to tell me that laws and regulations from 1912 are applicable to the situation in 2007!!!! Can we stop being ridiculous now please??? Can we deal with the hear and now? The present Quebec situation?​

It's pretty sad when people have to go back almost a hundred years and sometimes more, to find arguments to justify what is going on in the year 2007! Stop living in the past. It's over and done with and it can't be changed. It's time to move into the future. Deal with things we can change. Why repeat the mistakes of others? Are we all supposed to track down the descendants of those who did something wrong to our ancestors to get revenge for the past? Enough already!!!!!

Techman​

 

[General Gonad]

best available explanation???

Certainly not subscribing to the thesis of racism because it's not factual. Blaming the government for ethnics being underrepresented accredits the thesis of racism only if we believe in sophisms. It's like accusing the NHL of racism because there is no player originating from the Middle East.

Who accuses has the burden of the proof. Until proof is produced, the best available explanation is ethnics lack of interest for civil jobs.

Dear Ziggy,

I am saddened to read such a weak argument from an intelligent man with PhD in Political Science. Let me explain to you the difference between the NHL, a private institution, and the government of Quebec, a public institution. We as individuals have a choice on whether or not we want to support the NHL. By law, we have no choice but to pay taxes. As taxpayers, we directly support Quebec's civil service, even if we disagree with their policies.

It follows from this very fact that all taxpayers, including ethnics, anglos, French Quebecois, are mandated by law to support Quebec's civil service. Moreover, it follows that the government of Quebec, the employer of Quebec's civil service, should implement policies that properly diversify the labor force in Quebec's civil service to reflect all taxpayers who are subsidizing it.

Unfortunately, the government of Quebec is hopelessly incompetent on many fronts, including health and education. But the biggest issue of all, for me at least, is the institutionalized racism that permeates all levels of Quebec's civil service. It is a sad statement for our supposedly egalitarian society when the most important public institution in our province is lacking the proper representation of the constituent taxpayers.

You can claim that my term 'racism' is too strong. Perhaps institutionalized 'discrimination' is better. But these are just semantics since the end result is the same.

I applaud the Canadian Jewish Congress for putting out this paper on racism in Quebec. When you look at the facts, the government of Quebec has done nothing to diversify the Quebec civil service labor force. It's even more embarrassing when you compare the success of their policies to the success of the federal government's policies on employment equity. And, at least the federal government provides us with clear statistics and progress reports, citing that more needs to be done.

To sum up, your arguments are weak and your position is weak. It is easy to claim that there is no interest among ethnics to work for Quebec's civil service. This is a politically convenient argument, one that ignores the ugly truth that really lies behind the woeful under-representation of ethnics and other minorities in Qubec's civil service.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

Employment equity

Are you talking about the politic decision of federal gouvernement to reserve places in employment to "some minorities"...like those of differents origins, different sex (women.... )......For my part, this is not a good decision at all.......The employers have to choose the best employees they can choose of those who are interested for the company, or the public area WITHOUT thinking of that particular point...It is a kind of racism or sexism or whatever something finishing in "ism".....and have nothing to do for the capacity to well doing the accomplishment of the job.....Yes, maybe good looking decision, but in fact, are we sure to have the best qualified workers???

Employment equity laws are there to protect the rights of society's minorities who may be disadvantaged because of their gender, their ethnic background, their disabilities, or whatever. It is nice to claim we will hire the "best person" for the job but this often means discriminating against these minorities.

We should also make a distinction between private institutions, whose ultimate goal is to maximize profits, and public institutions, who serve to maximize the welfare of society. In doing so, public institutions like the government of Quebec, have a responsibility to promote policies that reflect the egalitarian values of our society.

Employment equity laws play a critical role to ensure that such values are reflected in all facets of public institutions. Sadly, while many claim to be equal opportunity employers, facts do not support their claims.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

The facts are looking more like that if you know somebody who knows somebody in the company or intitution you want to work for, you chance to be accept are higher......and it is the same for having health care more faster...if you know somebody there, that will be more faster...and i can go on each aspects of our Québec living....but, i think, it is universal....

That is exactly why laws exist, to protect citizens from the vagaries of private arrangements. Unfortunately, as you point out, people find ways to bypass laws.

GG

 

[General Gonad]

Ah! just to say, if this discussion was in french, that were be so easier for me...!!! Sorry to not able to say all my thoughts.....

Maria,

Why don't you write in French??? Most of us here are bilingual but we respond in the language we feel comfortable with.

As for laws, in order to enforce them and make sure they work, you need internal controls and public audits that report on their effectiveness.

GG

 

[sapman99]

Why is it that people continue to bring up situations outside of Quebec? They are of no relevance to the discussion! Why do some people try to use them as excuses for the policies of Quebec? Quebec is responsible for what happens here, no other province or country. Quebec alone!

Are you trying to tell me that laws and regulations from 1912 are applicable to the situation in 2007!!!! Can we stop being ridiculous now please??? Can we deal with the hear and now? The present Quebec situation?​

It's pretty sad when people have to go back almost a hundred years and sometimes more, to find arguments to justify what is going on in the year 2007! Stop living in the past. It's over and done with and it can't be changed. It's time to move into the future. Deal with things we can change. Why repeat the mistakes of others? Are we all supposed to track down the descendants of those who did something wrong to our ancestors to get revenge for the past? Enough already!!!!!

Techman

ok, so you are saying that draconian provincial regulations are strangling the health of the Anglo community here. Other people, using statistics, have shown that English here is not doing so horrible as you persist to state.

I am attempting to show you that other provinces in the past have used other means and pretty well succeeded in assimilating their franco population, or driving them out.

I have used the Ontario example because my grandfather lived through this. Later on, as a homeowner in Rosemont, he had to deal with the Royal in English here in Montréal, because they didn't serve anyone in French back then...

The resistance to ANY french is very strong in the Montréal community, and no, it doesn't stem from the language laws, it is much older than that. More like a conqueror mentality. A lot of American tourists like to go to Eggspectation. Please click "Français" on the site. oops... Been like this for months... I will not call the OLF, but they're off my breakfast menu.

 

[eastender]

Not so bad vs Flourishing

ok, so you are saying that draconian provincial regulations are strangling the health of the Anglo community here. Other people, using statistics, have shown that English here is not doing so horrible as you persist to state.

I am attempting to show you that other provinces in the past have used other means and pretty well succeeded in assimilating their franco population, or driving them out.

Somewhat curious and very disappointed that the debate always comes down to arguing that things are not as bad as they could be or as they were.There is a certain truth in such a position - after all we no longer live in caves and have mastered fire.

The point is are we flourishing as a community? Either Canada or Quebec or however you want to subdivide the debate. Comparing growth in either entity since whatever arbitrary date you wish - 1867, end of WWII, 1976 with the rest of the world shows that we are significantly underachieving if compared to other countries. Look at the growth in the former Soviet Bloc or China in the last 20 years. Canada / Quebec is stagnating, seriously slipping behind.

Recently we have taken some comfort in the fact that the Canadian dollar is at par with the US dollar. Nothing that Canada did contributed to this change - the USA and GW simply messed-up big time.

 

[ParChance]

eastender,

The Canadian dollar's fluctuation is not only attributable to the US$'s slide and GW but also the strength of Canadian resource industry & the rest of the world need all that we've got under our soil or on top of it (tar sands), as nature will have. China needs our metals big time & that drives our resource based economy.

 

[JustBob]

Comparing growth in either entity since whatever arbitrary date you wish - 1867, end of WWII, 1976 with the rest of the world shows that we are significantly underachieving if compared to other countries. Look at the growth in the former Soviet Bloc or China in the last 20 years. Canada / Quebec is stagnating, seriously slipping behind.

1. Comparing the growth of countries like the former Soviet Bloc and China for the past 20 years to that of Canada is like comparing apples to oranges.

2. Despite beeing the smallest country in the G8, Canada ranks 3rd in GDP per capita behind the US and the United Kingdom. Canada's GDP grew by 1.2% annually between 1990 and 1994, 3.7% between 1995 and 1999, and 3.1% between 2000 and 2004, placing it sixth, second and first in the three periods.

So, Canada is doing pretty well compared to other industrialized nations.

It looks like we also have economic "alarmists".

 

[eastender]

True

eastender,

The Canadian dollar's fluctuation is not only attributable to the US$'s slide and GW but also the strength of Canadian resource industry & the rest of the world need all that we've got under our soil or on top of it (tar sands), as nature will have. China needs our metals big time & that drives our resource based economy.

True - but that was also the case when the US dollar was trading for $1.60 Canadian. The tar sands are still there because we lack the financial resources to develop them.

 

[Techman]

ok, so you are saying that draconian provincial regulations are strangling the health of the Anglo community here. Other people, using statistics, have shown that English here is not doing so horrible as you persist to state.

I am attempting to show you that other provinces in the past have used other means and pretty well succeeded in assimilating their franco population, or driving them out.

I have used the Ontario example because my grandfather lived through this. Later on, as a homeowner in Rosemont, he had to deal with the Royal in English here in Montréal, because they didn't serve anyone in French back then...

The resistance to ANY french is very strong in the Montréal community, and no, it doesn't stem from the language laws, it is much older than that. More like a conqueror mentality. A lot of American tourists like to go to Eggspectation. Please click "Français" on the site. oops... Been like this for months... I will not call the OLF, but they're off my breakfast menu.

Look sap...I don't really care about things that happened 40, 50, 100 years ago. Or things that have happened in the past in other provinces or countries. I care about what is happening here, in Quebec, now.

As far as the resistance to French here in Montreal...well if you keep trying to jam something down someone's throat they start to choke on it. Why is so hard to understand that when you pass laws against someone's language that they will resent yours? Every English family that I know have fluently bilingual children. The majority of French families I know have pretty much unilingual French children. Other than the slang they have picked up from the net or listening to rap music. Why is that? I have French friends that are sending their kids to English private schools, at great cost to them considering their income, so that their kids will have a better chance in life. Why shouldn't they have a choice?

Now when it comes to internet web sites...well in case you didn't notice the primary language of the net happens to be English. Like it or not. I don't care when a Quebec web site is in French only, damn... my company site is in French only! I don't think the OLF has any business trying to control anything on the web. I don't think the OLF has any business existing as anything more than an advisory board to help people who wish to have information on proper French terms or grammer! In fact, any government agency that accepts anonymous complaints against companies or citizens is just a little too fascist for my taste.

When you go to Eggspectations is their menu in French? If it is, as I am certain it is, then what do you have to complain about? Absolutely nothing. I hate to inform you, but the world doesn't revolve around French Quebec. Never did, never will.

Techman

 

[Techman]

Originally Posted by JustBob
So, Canada is doing pretty well compared to other industrialized nations.

Yeah...but just think how much better we could be doing if we didn't have to deal with all these separatist and language problems.