Barack Obama: A Historic President

[Below500k]

The bill is not unconstitutional, you will find that out within a month or two.

The american industrial/captialistic dream served you very well during the last century. Unfortuanatly, it was at the expense of large parts of your population (slavery, women, civil rights, your military, and now the middle class). That model has run it's course as proven by the enormous mistakes of the greedy and immoral leadership in the last 8yrs. that not only damaged your country and the world's economy, but cast a shadow of doubt on what was once a model of great admiration.

Today, you are very fortunate to have a leader that has the stones to do what he is doing. Obama will attempt to drag your country kicking and screaming into it's next great era, by being more focused on what is right for humanity, and not for his own benifit, or the 1% of the population that is insanely rich. He is a compassionante and very intelligent human being, one that should be looked up to. It may be hard for you to understand, but as people who look from the outside in (you know the rest of us in the civilized world), you would do yourself well by absorbing some of that compassion and courage.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I have not been told by anyone that they favor national health insurance. I'm a centrist Democrat who favors it in theory, but how it is designed and works worries me.

I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but there's not one word about national health insurance in this bill. Also, once the idiots stop screaming and people learn just how this bill will help them, and they will, it's popularity will match that of medicare and social security.

Ironically, the people who stand to benefit the most from this bill are the morons who watch Glenn Beck.

How are the losers insurance companies? Obama just increased their client base by making everyone purchase an insurance plan. The key loser here is the American taxpayer who will have to foot this monstrosity in the wake of double digit unemployment. The other loser is small and mid sized business who will find that the plans they provide their employees will increase in cost by minimum 10%.

They're mandated to spend at least 85% of their income on payment for treatment. They must cover people with pre-existing conditions. They can't cancel coverage for sickness. Yes, there's also a lot of giveaway to them in this bill, but this is just the first step. A public option, if not single payer, will come down the line.

I own a small business and have several young employees who refuse medical coverage. With the new credits being implemented, we'll be able to cover them at a reasonable cost.

I also believe that the Republicans' negative attitude towards the bill has more to do with racism than common sense.

BINGO!!! Where do we send your prize? But on top of that, they would never have called a white president the the things they're calling Obama. They would never have questioned a white president's legitimacy. We saw it in full force in Washington this weekend with the slurs on several black congressmen.

Also, Doc, you're probably right that the insurance companies gain with this bill, but they're terrified of the snowball rolling down the hill. Who do you think has been funding the brainwashing the morons who call themselves teapartiers?

You cannot force someone living in a State in the United States to purchase health insurance under the threat of prison or fines. It is simply unconstitution under the Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 (Commerce Clause).

Gee, guess you're right. I guess that would fall under the same clause that says you can't force people to get auto insurance.

 

[daydreamer41]

The bill is not unconstitutional, you will find that out within a month or two.

The american industrial/captialistic dream served you very well during the last century. Unfortuanatly, it was at the expense of large parts of your population (slavery, women, civil rights, your military, and now the middle class). That model has run it's course as proven by the enormous mistakes of the greedy and immoral leadership in the last 8yrs. that not only damaged your country and the world's economy, but cast a shadow of doubt on what was once a model of great admiration.

Today, you are very fortunate to have a leader that has the stones to do what he is doing. Obama will attempt to drag your country kicking and screaming into it's next great era, by being more focused on what is right for humanity, and not for his own benifit, or the 1% of the population that is insanely rich. He is a compassionante and very intelligent human being, one that should be looked up to. It may be hard for you to understand, but as people who look from the outside in (you know the rest of us in the civilized world), you would do yourself well by absorbing some of that compassion and courage.

We will see if the bill is constitutional or not. It will take more than a couple of months. The Supreme Court will ultimately decide.

As for the next "great era" you are talking about that Obama will drag us into ... it's the next Great Depression. We are rapidly approaching the point where the U.S. will not be able to afford the interest on our debt. With this new entitlement program, we will not be able to afford our regular budget, let alone the interest.

As for the 1 percent being insanely rich, so what? In a Capitalistic society, anyone has the opportunity to be insanely rich. Warren Buffet was of modest means, and he still lives in his original $31,000 house that he bought in the 1950's. Capitalism gives incentive to anyone with a good idea, or concept to accumulate wealth.

Socialism takes away from those who invent, create markets, etc. It dulls societies and often imprisons societies. The former USSR and the other Iron Curtain societies is a great example. No one was rich except for the few "politicians" in the Kremiln and everyone else was poor. With Obama, we are headed in the same direction as the former USSR. I think the US people will vote the Democrats out before that happens, but that is what Obama represents. History proves Socialism has always eventually fails. The result of the former USSR is the prime example. In the beginnning and for many years, you had a society that was tolerable that turned into misery. I know many former citizens of the USSR that verify how bad it was.

It is amazing to me how liberals and socialists equate compassion with socialism, because socialism is not compassionate. Socialism destroys the individuals ability to become self-sufficient by taking a graduated percentage of taxes from persons who are more successful. (This healthcare bill loads a heavy tax on individuals making over $200,000 and couples, $250 thousand). The more successful you are, the more the socialist takes. Therefore, the individual says, "Why work so hard?" Then you do not have the entrprises that employs thousands of people. We all work for the state, and we know how "successful' and efficient any government is, Not.

The Chinese adage give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man how to fish, feed for a lifetime. But guys like Obama, who have been around before, are throwing fish at people. And if you become one of those rare fisherman, he'll take away your catch.

 

[daydreamer41]

Gee, guess you're right. I guess that would fall under the same clause that says you can't force people to get auto insurance.

Very poor analogy. Driving an automobile is a privilege in all states in the United States. You do not have to drive an automobile. People ride buses, subways, trains, planes. But if you apply for a driver's license, the "State" where you reside has the right to require you to get insurance.

And you have just demonstrated how the Clause works. Each individual state regulates auto insurance, not the Federal government.

By the way, each individual state regulates health insurance also. That's part of the legal argument that the state's are going to use in opposing the legislation in the Courts. Insurance companies register with each state, not the Federal government, to sell insurance within the borders of each state. Now, with this legislation you have the Federal government sanctioning whether insurance policies are worthy of being sold. The state's position will be that the Clause does not give the Federal government that power. Whatever the outcome, it will be an interesting decision.

Going back to your auto insurance analogy with health insurance, the question will be what power does the Federal government have to tell an individual to buy insurance for his or her health based on living and breathing? There is nothing the Constitution that gives the Federal government that power. That wil be part of the argument.

 

[daydreamer41]

David Frum is a great mind. There's no arguing that. He's rarely wrong & one of the few former Bushies that i actually respect.

As for the insurance companies losing with this bill, i disagree. They'll now have over 40 million new clients. That's a lot of $$ for the insurance companies.

I also believe that the Republicans' negative attitude towards the bill has more to do with racism than common sense. A majority of the poor people the bill will help are black people. The white Republicans in the most part (who are against the bill) don't want to pay for poor black people's health care. If whites would comprise the majority of poor americans, it would be an entirely different story.

Just my opinion.

I disagree, Doc. Insurance companies do not make out. People can now join with pre-existing conditions and therefore wait until they get very sick to start paying into the system. The insurance companies will take a serious hit.

I don't understand your statement about racism. It does not make any sense. As you know, as you being a dual citizen, for the very poor, there is Medicaid, free healthcare for Welfare recipients. The problem Medicaid recipients have is the lack of doctors, because the government pays doctors so low, well below insurance companies.

The current unemployed are white, black, latino, oriental, eastern european, Arab, etc., etc. We have 9.8 percent unemployment and it has hit all economic brackets.

The under-employed are the same.

Other than the unemployed, the next group of people who do not have insurance are either young people who work in jobs that do not give insurance.

It has nothing to do with race. So why are you bringing race into this?

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Very poor analogy. Driving an automobile is a privilege in all states in the United States.

Health care, too, used to be a privilege. Thanks to Obama, it's now a right.

And by the way, from a constitutional scholar, "There's a lot of nonsense out there about constitutional challenges to the Health Care Reform law on various 'state sovereignty' grounds. That's nonsense. The Nullification Crisis and Civil War settled those issues. But the more serious challenges are based on extremely forward-leaning conservative arguments about the 'commerce clause'. It seems very out there. Comical almost."

 

[Jman47]

OMG...Change...(it can be good)...

rumples,
You are doing an absolutely great job stating and reemphasizing your position on this subject. I agree with every comment you have made to date.

I would like to make a statement from a much broader viewpoint. The bill is about change. People by nature do not like change. Change can be and is good. But if comfort with the old and familiar is not pushed aside by those who are in the comfort zone the change cannot take place. Fear is often based in ignorance or not knowing. People need to react based on the facts after they take the time to learn about what all of the changes.

Learning begins by taking in ALL of the facts...not just the one sided reporting of some news commentators who are being paid by people with specific interests. These special interest groups and their roots are exactly the reason my political allegiance is as an Independent. I got tired of hearing all of the partisan BS. I vote the issue based on what I can gather as the facts and how it effects my life and my family...I take the time to learn about the WHOLE issue...not just FOX's side of the issue.

The health care system in this country is a run away train. It is run by the insurance companies. Doctors treat and rape the system (BTW most of them want change). Patients get less and less every year as claims are denied for ever changing reasons as the FOR PROFIT insurance companies don't care about health care, they care about profit. Employers self insure and then limit benefits to employees. The entire issue of dropping someone for a preexisting condition or once they hit a treatment cap is inhuman and insane. It is profiteering at its finest.

The saying that your insurance company loves you right up until you have to use it is SO true. If you get sick...oh ... You have not hit your deductible or you are over your limit or its a preexisting condition or???. Have an auto accident ... rates go up, coverage gets dropped. Claim on homeowners ... ditto. It is legalized extortion. Insurance companies are among my favorites right after credit card companies.

Somewhere greed overtook the basic principles the business was founded in and the system went bad. Having a president and a congress who have the balls to face a problem and fix a problem are history in the making.

Change is sometimes a good thing. People need to open thier minds and listen to the other viewpoint.

BTW, I have yet to hear an intelligent alternative from the bashers...but then again John McCain probably still thinks the economy is "very sound". And Sarah is still looking for Russia out here front door. LOL

 

[Illiterati]

Not that I want to get too deep in this, since politics is one of those minefields where no one comes out intact once they venture in, but I've seen people expressing worries that the insurance companies, of all entities, may make less money.

OMG NO! WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR INSURANCE COMPANIES!

Insurers are among some of the sleaziest people around. I think of them as being about a quarter-step ahead of tobacco companies (and yes, I smoke). I would lose not one second of sleep to the thought that they might stop growing absurdly wealthy on the backs of people whose misery they exploit.

YMMV, of course.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Fear is often based in ignorance or not knowing. People need to react based on the facts after they take the time to learn about what all of the changes.

Absolutely. It will be interesting to see how popular this bill is once people know what's in it and learn that the fear-mongers have been lying through their teeth.

Change is already popular. The latest poll shows that 52% of the people want change (39% approve of the bill, 13% think it didn't go far enough) vs. just 39% who think the bill went too far. And I suspect the first number will go over 60% when people learn how it will help them.

BTW, the big loser in all of this? Fox Noise. They've spent countless thousands of hours over the last year purveying lies and fomenting fear and were unable to prevent passage of this landmark act. The big winner? The people of the USA.

 

[CS Martin]

Here's an interesting quote:

Democratic Congressman Alcee Hastings who was impeached and removed from the bench as a federal judge, before being elected to the House said, "There ain't no rules here, we're trying to accomplish something. . . .All this talk about rules. . . .When the deal goes down . . . we make 'em up as we go along."

Facinating.

 

[Doc Holliday]

It has nothing to do with race. So why are you bringing race into this?

The Tea Party is composed mostly of racists, homophobes & bigots that also happen to be Republican. They're as worse as the KKK.

 

[Jman47]

Here's an interesting quote:

Democratic Congressman Alcee Hastings who was impeached and removed from the bench as a federal judge, before being elected to the House said, "There ain't no rules here, we're trying to accomplish something. . . .All this talk about rules. . . .When the deal goes down . . . we make 'em up as we go along."

Facinating.

Sounds like the Cheney, ooops I'm sorry, Bush II presidency....LOL!

Absolutely COULD NOT resist making that comment - as hard as I tried...

 

[CS Martin]

Sounds like the Cheney, ooops I'm sorry, Bush II presidency....LOL!

Absolutely COULD NOT resist making that comment - as hard as I tried...

No actually this is one of Pelosi's newly minted Democrats in the House. Jman, just remember the ends justify the means except when it's a republican in office. Then it's the other way around. You see it's a matter of perspective. LOL Fortunately for me, I've become politically neutral. You see, it's really about the BS system and the BS "sound bite" press. It's all very politically correct. This board is a great place to post such things.

 

[Jman47]

No actually this is one of Pelosi's newly minted Democrats in the House. Jman, just remember the ends justify the means except when it's a republican in office. Then it's the other way around. You see it's a matter of perspective. LOL Fortunately for me, I've become politically neutral. You see, it's really about the BS system and the BS "sound bite" press. It's all very politically correct. This board is a great place to post such things.

CS,
I could not agree with you more.
Have fun.
Jman

 

[CS Martin]

CS,
I could not agree with you more.
Have fun.
Jman

Yes, I've coined a new saying, "It's all about now, not about how". Remember where you heard it first.

 

[eastender]

One Letter

Yes, I've coined a new saying, "It's all about now, not about how". Remember where you heard it first.

Change one letter.

"It's all about wow,.................."

 

[daydreamer41]

Daydreamer, the Commerce Clause says: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States to:... regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes".[/I] Though no legal expert, I see nothing there that supports your point. In fact in regard to "general welfare" and the power of the Congress to impose uniform regulations it seems to make the opposite point from yours. There is nothing about so-called "states rights" here. Otherwise, please explain how specifically?

Merlot,

The commerce clause is tied to the 10th Admendment, which gives States the right to regulate its own affairs.

10th Admendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.



Basically, the federal government has all of the powers listed in Article I Section 8, including to the right regulate interstate commerce or commerce among the States. Then each State has the power to regulate its own Commerce within its own borders. Health Insurance, auto insurance, life insurance, etc. has been regulate independently by each State, because an individual, the insured can only be a resident of one state at a time.

The Federal government has the right to legislate the activities in Article I, Section 8 and only regulate commerce going across State lines, like trucking, air travel, crime across State lines, or from outside the US to inside the US.

Who knows what the Supreme Court will rule in these cases or what the argurments will be. The States arguments against this legislation will be many, inlcuding the fact that each State has been given the power by the 10th Admendment and the commerce clause to regulate insurance and now it is being trumped by the Federal government.

Also, each State has its own laws governing insurance, what the minimum requirements must be. Will the Federal Government abide by each State law or will the Federal regulations try to trump the state law. It is very complex.

Also, the insurance companies have anti-trust exemptions in the McCarran-Ferguson Act. The Supreme Court had ruled that Congress could regulate the insurance industry under the Commerce Clause in United States vs. Southeastern Underwriters Association in 1945. However, Congress passed the McCarran-Ferguson Act which gave back the rights of the States to regulate. Therefore, the States would argue that Congress would have to appeal the McCarran-Ferguson Act in order to pass legislation like they did over the weekend. To repeal a US law, you would have to have 2/3 of the Congress to repeal the law and the President to sign it. The Republicans would not go along now, but they may have if this legislation was not passed. The argument being that increased competition would lower prices. But the Republicans are against this law because of the complexiity and the vast open ended powers that it gave the Federal government to dictate health insurance regulation.

 

[daydreamer41]

Come on, Doc. This is not so. The Tea Party are people who are afraid that the US is headed towards financial ruin. That's what motivates them. Saying that they are worse than the KKK is a rotten thing to say.

Fox News Poll: 79% Say U.S. Economy Could Collapse

Most American voters believe it’s possible the nation’s economy could collapse, and majorities don’t think elected officials in Washington have ideas for fixing it.

The latest Fox News poll finds that 79 percent of voters think it’s possible the economy could collapse, including large majorities of Democrats (72 percent), Republicans (84 percent) and independents (80 percent).

Just 18 percent think the economy is "so big and strong it could never collapse."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/23/fox-news-poll-say-economy-collapse/

 

[hungry101]

SPK, gotta go with you on this one. Not even going near this one. Amazing how many try and rewrite the history books. Why bother to listen to the people, when the people are too dumb to speak in phrases more than three words strung together. Funny how we never discuss SPs or pussy on this board anymore. Wait, we do discuss pussies here, just not women......LOL

Sorry CS, I was multitasking again when I read Rumples post. I just wanted to go on record as opposing the health care bill. You see, I am a rare breed. I work in the private sector and I pay hefty taxes already. Yes, you guessed it, I'm the slob that pays everyone else's way. It sounds like I'm going to have to work harder because the democrats are spending more of my money on another entitlement program that will never go away and most probably turn into a boondoggle ripe with fraud and waste. I don't know whats next from the Democratic Party but I have a suggestion. With a brand new entitlement plan in the wings, now would be a bad time to try to save the ice cap and the polar bears with Al Gore's cap and tax.

Enjoy your high spirited debate guys, I have to get back to work.

 

[K Douglas]

The Tea Party is composed mostly of racists, homophobes & bigots that also happen to be Republican. They're as worse as the KKK.

That is completely fallacious Doc. You should be ashamed of yourself for making a blanket statement like that.