Bush Says U.S. Economy "Envy of the Industrialized World"

[StripperLover]

HonestAbe,

I have nothing at all against you personally, why would I ?

I took exception a statement that was meant to fling around a person's strength where I think that humility is ALWAYS the best approach. Whether or not your statement is true or accurate is not the point, it's not necessary to agressively make a point of pointing it out. Just as a person of wealth thrusting it openly & verbally out loud in the face of one not so fortunate.

Yes the US is currently the wealthiest country & has the most powerful army but what is gained in this discussion by mentioning it on such a board. I contend that that only purpose to point this out is to openly make sure that others are reminded or put down, humility is much more efficient & endearing.

 

[J. Peterman]

Their time has come and gone.

Different countries and different cultures have had their rises and falls. The Chinese were the most advanced and powerful nation on earth 1000 years ago, the porgugese rulled a large part of the world because they had navigational abilities, the spanish, french had large territories, and the british empire was once a vast empire.
The time for the USA has come and gone, they are a country in decline. The Americans can not do what the Chinese are doing now.................work for $0.40 an hour. The writing is on the wall.

 

[HonestAbe]

Now were getting somewhere.

HonestAbe,

I have nothing at all against you personally, why would I ?

I took exception a statement that was meant to fling around a person's strength where I think that humility is ALWAYS the best approach. Whether or not your statement is true or accurate is not the point, it's not necessary to agressively make a point of pointing it out. Just as a person of wealth thrusting it openly & verbally out loud in the face of one not so fortunate.

Yes the US is currently the wealthiest country & has the most powerful army but what is gained in this discussion by mentioning it on such a board. I contend that that only purpose to point this out is to openly make sure that others are reminded or put down, humility is much more efficient & endearing.

Glad to hear that first of all, dittos to you.

My statement was NOT meant to "fling around" our "strength" and I specifically made it clear that I did NOT in ANY way support such action. In reality I was pointing out my own disgust at the US governments refusal to be held accountable on pretty much any level for anything it does because in the minds of Bush/Cheney the ends always justify the means. It is exactly this kind of mindset that needs to be pointed out so Americans can fully understand how we are viewed and feared by the rest of the world.

I remember feeling like shit when I was overseas and saw protests outside our base where the populace held up signs saying "Yankee go home" and "American Capitalist Pig" even "Murderers", I liked all the different cultures I experienced being around and it really bothered me that they saw us as "bullies." I remember being confined to base because of bomb threats from actual terrorists, and this was way before Al Qaeda. Most Americans are oblivious to much of this and never travel outside their own country except for a jaunt to the Carribean on a cruise. Perhaps if we exposed our own tendencies to use our military strength as a sort of rogue state to simply get what we want or control/influence foreign policy decisions amongst other nations whether its right or wrong then we could get our populace to vote for a different kind of leadership with a more worldly vision.

I merely pointed out that the extreme nationalistic views espoused by Bush/Cheney and their like coupled with their actions to date across the globe indicate one thing clearly. Any such action (calling in our national debt) by foreign nations would be viewed as an act of aggression against our country, albeit financial in nature. Justification of such a view on their part wouldn't be deemed as important and we would simply be fed propaganda as to why we must ignore these demands and default on our debt while threatening anyone who attempted to call us on our actions. The fact that our military is so powerful can not be such great news to so many people on this board. Perhaps some of the specifics I got into scared some people, but thats precisely the point. It should scare people that the US spends so much damned money on things designed to eliminate anything Bush sees as a threat. Something needs to be done to stem this tide because if we ignore it or sweep it under the rug so to speak then we are in essence condoning it and enabling it to keep happening. Critical insight was the goal of my post, not to beat anyone over the head with some silly "our dick is bigger than your dick" macho crap. Sorry you perceived it that way, next time give me the benefit of the doubt will you please?

Always happy to clarify statements but don't like being called names. I'm still waiting for a detailed explanation as to Oil Sands, perhaps instead of shitting on me for not knowing what they were you could tell me yourself what they are?

Peace, Abe

 

[StripperLover]

HA,

My point was that superior strength, power & financial resources need not ever be mentioned when it is obvious, as this is only & always perceived as demeaning to those who don't possess such. And verbal flouting of the like only festers contempt, whereas extreme humility brings on admiration.

You'll find the info you seek with reagrds to the Oil Sands at the following site;

http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/89.asp

 

[voyageur11]

You need a strong economy to paid for this www.costofwar.com/index-public-education

 

[HonestAbe]

nations like china and russia have enough nukes to blow the us off the face of the map 10 times over, so if it ever came down to that who wins nobody. Do not think for a second the u.s. does not realize this and that is why there are checks and balances. It is not as lopsided as people think.

M.A.D.= Mutually Assured Destruction, the concept has been well known for decades, I made this point in my previous post, you are absolutely correct, no winners in a nuclear war, we all lose.

China does not yet have the capacity to hit mainland USA with a major Nuclear strike from its position on the map. That being said they are scrambling like mad to gain that capacity. The size of their nuclear arsenal is also substantially smaller than ours and Russias'. Russia's nuclear arsenal is larger than the US', I don't feel jealous because of this though.

Absolutely right though about "Checks and Balances" but we should also take note that it is not Russia or China who we owe our national debt too anyway. In fact Russia owes us and China needs us to help their economy grow since we buy a tremendous bulk of their cheap products. Saw a report the other day that shows China is preparing to break into the North American Automobile market and challenge ALL the major Auto manufacturers in addition to taking a stab at the luxury market! Lets see how that effects the auto market here with their workers making such pittances for a wage. Can you imagine a $15,000 Chinese car that looks like, drives like, and lasts like a $50,000 Lexus? The war of words will be fierce over this.

The countries which own our debt are more along the likes of Japan and Germany, little military power there, just lots of money and big economies. They also export much of the fruits of their labor to us. My point, no one will ever call in our debt because it would be a catastrophic mistake all around. If you bankrupt the US you screw the entire world and back a wounded monster into a corner by doing so. NOT GOOD. Won't happen.

More likely scenario will be for US companies to start to falter and then be bought up by foreigners so we will be left with few if any large American business', just Giant multinational conglomerates. They will use their power to manipulate the government into giving them every labor concession you can think of and basically lower the standard of living of the average US person forever. Oppurtunity in this country will sink to an all time low for the average man. No longer will you be able to work hard till your 65 and retire. No longer will the average man be able to support his family as a single wage earner, dual incomes will be required from both partners in a marriage until the day they die. Quality of life will plummet. Children will be ignored or disaffected by missing parents creating a new generation of emotionally challenged and love starved youth who will turn to crime in some instances and in others be incapable of having strong emotional bonds due to feelings of abandonment and lack of parental love and guidance.

The US economy is in bad shape for a lot of reasons that don't jump right out at you and aren't talked about nearly enough. We need new leadership to bring back the American dream. It can't become reserved solely for Dr.'s, Lawyers, and corrupt businessmen. If it does the social fabric of this society will start to fall apart.

 

[Tommy G]

Canadian Dollar

Maybe the Canadian dollar is strong because of the billions of American Dollars that are spent on sp's and hotels in Montreal and Toronto every year.

Or..... maybe not

 

[Uncle Kracker]

Maybe the Canadian dollar is strong because of the billions of American Dollars that are spent on sp's and hotels in Montreal and Toronto every year.

Or..... maybe not

Fuckin' A!

The dollars are getting closer & closer to equal by the day...

At the moment: 1.00 USD = 1.15795 CAD

It's certainly not like the good ol' days (1.00 USD = approx. 1.65 CAD in '03)... But even if the dollars becomes even (1=1), maybe I'm nuts, but I'd still say it's worth the trip...

 

[HonestAbe]

Abe, all of the US debts are structured as dollar denominated fixed income obligations. Meaning 1) you can't "call in the debt" just because you want to and 2) the US governement pay you with dollar bills that they print. By the way, the risk priced into US treasury is pretty much zero. So if you really believe what you said then you should massively short the US treasury.

Wasn't my contention that it would ever happen in the first place A. Someone else suggested it may happen and I disagreed. But thanks for confirming it.

Hard to tell what you mean by "risk priced into USA treasury is pretty much zero." Why would anyone buy treasury notes from a country which was viewed as bankrupt or unlikely to be able to pay the interest on their obligations? What would such a note be worth? What would happen if the US goverment couldn't pay the interest on the obligations we currently have, a large percentage of our annual budget, because the Dollar had been catastrophically devalued? Such a situation must be considered a risk when making investment decisions, no?

My contention is the US will be allowed to keep building up as much debt as it likes because of the role it plays in the world economy and nothing will ever be done to reign in our habits in unless we initiate it ourselves. If we ever defaulted on our debts, our debtors would have to make some sort of deal to keep the US propped up (debt forgiveness?) since they would have little alternative to collect any sizable portion of what they were owed and war would not be an option.

My economics is a little rusty but I think other nations and investors see US treasuries as a good investment because they have good reason to believe that the US will always pay its debt obligations with interest. This is because our debt is a somewhat small percentage of our GDP. That could change though if Bush keeps doing his best to run us into the ground. Then what?

 

[onthelookout]

United States' "Bush Gets Too Comfortable"

When any great empire gets too cumfy, they get lazy and when laziness creeps into the dugout, the champions lose their title.

It is an absolute abomination what this man, along with his administration have been allowed to do. An entire generation of americans stand to lose their standards of living as the country drowns at a rate of over 1.3 billion dollars of more debt per day..people

The ________ in power along with his crownies believes the best way to deal with a problem is to print more paper. Sell more t-bills, bonds, etc..
Even if he offers 20 percent interest on the paper, what's is it worth if the value of the currency slides. He tries to sell the song that a lower dollar is good business for exports. What he does not say is that a lower dollar means that everything america imports to buy/to manufacture...will be more expensive...and guess what's on top of the list...OIL

It's no co incidence that the biggest holders of american debt (the chinese) are loading up big time on gold (as the best hedge)because they know what will happen; because at one point they are going to make it happen. They are the ones who will catapult the u.s. currency to the bottom of the list.
Why?

Why should anyone hold onto a losing stock?
We dump it right?
At one point, when the chinese have secured enough derivative instruments
they will begin dumping american paper>>>at a scale never seen.

When that happens the re-elected will try to pretend that he didn't see it coming....while his dad's been buying up bullion..Ironic?

It would not be the 1st time that an entire country's population
was fooled into believing that they can trust a man to lead them.
The last country to pay a huge price was Germany and it dragged
the whole world into it...

Best protection before the onslaught is not insurance.
Best protection is the oldest currency..the color of gold.

 

[HonestAbe]

Good post OTL,

Where did you see that bit about the Chinese being the biggest holders of American Debt? I was under the presumption that Germany and Japan were #1 and #2. Not that it would surprise me.



As reported yesterday on CNN individual bankruptcies in the US were at an all time high in 2005 with a record 2.04 million filings. Hardly indicative of an economy envied by the rest of the 1st world. That White House weed George is smoking must be some good shit, seems the Rose Garden has a special little plot reserved for Bushs' cannabis experiment, perhaps he does something well after all?

 

[The_Seeker]

calling in the US debt simply means that everybody sells their US tbonds and US tbills at the same time .... with no more buyers of tbonds and tbills ... and they expect to be paid

in order to keep the US currency from going to zero the debt would have to be paid with hard assets (real stuff)

printing unlimited money to pay off a national debt was tried by Germany before WWII ... the result was a worthless Germany mark ... it does not work


you can not turn on a printing press to pay off total debt the result will be a US currency that drops to zero

also there will nolonger be buyers of future US tbonds and tbills .... so who will give the US the real money for all their future annual deficits? ... again printing money will not help

that's why the US sells tbonds and tbills each year instead of just printing the money ... to collect real money (ad not inflated worthless money) to pay their bills ... why not just run the printing press instead of selling tbonds and tbills? because the US currency would go to zero .... nobody would buy it on world markets ... both it's financial credibility and value would be zero

the ultimate flipping of the bird to the rest of the world

 

[HonestAbe]

calling in the US debt simply means that everybody sells their US tbonds and US tbills at the same time .... with no more buyers of tbonds and tbills ... and they expect to be paid

Just curious, how do you sell them all at once if there are "no more buyers?"

I hear differing accounts of how much gold is in Fort Knox along with some conspiracy theories that there isn't any gold at all. The other day I read there are approximately 3 trillion dollars worth of Bullion but I heard elsewhere not too long ago that there is less than 1 trillion and as little as 500 Billion. At any rate there is not nearly enough to pay off all our debts.

That being the case why would we even bother to dispense any of it in such a scenario. Rather than give up all our gold reserves or try to print unlimited money wouldn't it be more likely that we would simply say "Sorry, but we can't pay you right now due to the devaluation of our currency and the lack of gold reserves sufficient to take care of our debt. Your move." Our currency would be totally devalued either way so it would be a no win situation for anyone. This is why I can't ever see it happening.

 

[daydreamer41]

I think the Chinese have 800 Billion in US Debt. This is about 10 percent of the National debt currently. 8 Trillion of debt is not good in anyones credit report. However, I do agree with Abe that if China were to start transferring it to the Euro or British Pound, the US dollar would fall considerably against the Euro and the Pound (maybe 50 percent) and they would lose the value that they hold. Furthermore, the US is the Chinese biggest market. Why would they hurt their largest trading partner?

Also, I doubt very much that the cheap labor market in China will last long. China's leaders have their roots in Communism and Socialism. I have read about complaints from various Chinese leaders that the Chinese factory workers cannot afford to buy the products that they are making. At the moment, China is largely importing Capitalism. Its next step is to impose Socialism on the Capitalist who have been imported e.g. the US companies that have invested.

I agree that the US economy for the last 50 years has been the model to follow until the late 1990s, but there are some really bad structural problems that need to be fixed like our National debt. Neither Republicans nor Democrats have been willing to solve the root of the problem. That is ensuring a healthy and balanced economy that empowers manufacturing, product development, and employment opportunities for its citizens. Illegal immigration is a large problem for the US. Outsourcing may become a large problem for the US also. Manufacturing has been in its decline. The IT market is next in line. I don't think the Bush Administration is looking at ways to solve either problem, as well as the National debt. But I do not see any Democrat leader voicing concern or offering any solutions to these enormous problems. I have heard a couple Congressmen say that the problems are looming, but the leadership needs to voice the same concerns.

 

[daydreamer41]

Does the name "Clinton" ring a bell?

Does Newt Gingrich ring a bell?

 

[HonestAbe]

Say What?

I don't know if he rings a bell, but i do know that he's heard any wedding bells.....the guy just cannot keep it in his pants! How many of his secretaries has he screwed??? I wonder what the religious right really thinks of him.....???

HUH?? Whats this? Newt screwed his secretary? More than one of them? Details? Why do I miss all the good stuff?!

 

[dweller]

Excuse for U.S. to invade Canada

What excuse could the U.S. come up with for invading Canada? It occurred to me that the U.S. could say that Canada represents a security threat because of organized crime, outlaw biker gangs and such:
http://www.yorku.ca/nathanson/CurrentEvents/2005_Q3.htm

They could make up organized crime in Canada is cooperating with Al-Qaeda. Canadian government is unable to control organized crime to the extent that it has been controlled in the U.S., so the U.S. will invade Canada.

 

[anon_vlad]

They don't need to invade.

The Americans usually don't need to invade a country to control it. Using cash and perhaps some covert operations, they prop up or even install a dictator who will comply with their wishes. In return, the dictator will buy often unnecessary armaments from the US military industrial complex or send its troups to help advance American interests. The cost to the client state is paid through the sale of its resources.

Panama and Iraq were invaded when the dictator they had supported misbehaved.

Canada and Mexico trade agreements with the US provide the Americans with increased access to our resources and, in some instances, prevent us from bothering American subsidiaries too much about pollution. If we get out of line, we will suffer reduced access to their markets, duties etc. I think that the US would immediately remove the softwood duties if we supported them on StarWars and/or sent a few troops to Iraq.

 

[bumfie]

Bush

I'm an American, and I consider Bush an embarrassment. He has torched our economy, involved us in a pointless and bloody war and split our nation between red and blue states.

I travel in Canada quite a bit, so I am painfully aware of how severely this jackass has lowered the opinion of Americans in Canada and throughout the world.

I didn't vote for this asshole, so don't blame me...

 

[General Gonad]

New budget, same old headaches

I'm an American, and I consider Bush an embarrassment. He has torched our economy, involved us in a pointless and bloody war and split our nation between red and blue states

In a recent interview with CBC radio, American author Kurt Vonnegut (author of Slaughterhouse-5), said "you need to be insane to run for president of the United States or incredibly stupid."

As far as his new budget that he unveiled today, I quote an article: "The document unveiled Monday clamps down on domestic programs favored by lawmakers and calls for politically perilous curbs to Medicare that promise to bog down in a Congress already poisoned by election-year politics."

The US is tring to inflate its way out of debt by spending like a drunken sailor....Bonne chance!!!