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CBC News article: "Montreal residents fight prostitution online"

Kepler

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The law in Quebec (CcQ) is pretty strong and, worse yet, there is Supreme Court of Canada precedent on point (Aubry, 1998). In fact, in Aubry, the photo was completely innocuous and yet the plaintiff still got damages.

What these neighbors are doing is unlawful and very dangerous to their pocket books. If a prostitute (or an incorrectly identified by-standard!) was to sue they would be toast.

More interesting is: would Facebook (deep pockets) also be liable?

Most interesting: will some guy and his girlfriend with a get-rich-quick idea entrap these people and sue?
 

eastender

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Public Interest

"Quebec is the only place in North America where photographers are required to get permission from the subjects of photographs that will be presented to the public. The only situations where such a permission is not mandatory is when the photo is of a crowd, if it's considered legitimate news or considered to be in the public interest."

Quoting above from a previous post in this thread. The "considered to be in the public interest" part of the quote grants leeway in many instances. Basically three criteria - the act, the cause and the consequences have to be looked at.

Publishing of pictures.

From one perspective it may be argued that the cause = the illegal use of drugs in the drug den creating a fire hazard and other dangers. The act = the ensuing prostitution in the proximity of the drug den creating dangerous and unsafe living condition for innocent third parties.The consequences = health, safety, property value issues to name a few. Looks like public interest is being served by the publishing of the pictures.
 

eastender

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Municipal By-Laws

These neighbors do not have to outright call them prostitutes along with the pictures. They can merely describe what the women are doing - walking around the street for long periods of time waiting for cars to pick them up. There would be an implication that they are prostitutes, but the neighbors are not outright calling them such.

As far as public interest, there is public interest. It could be a news story. It does not have to be a newspaper to be newsworthy. These women are allegedly doing something illegal. It is up to LE to determine, but the neighborhood would have the right to present the fact that these women are exhibiting suspicious behavior without really coming out and saying so.

The best thing these neighbors could do is get politically involved and elect one of their own for City Council. That way whoever Montreal's mayor is, they will take notice and instruct LE to investigate and prosecute.

As I have said many times before, I think Canada;s prostitution laws are excellent. Street porstitution is not good for neighborhoods. The only change I would like to see would be special zoning or zones for Incalls, which are far away from Schools and residential areas.

Usually there are municipal zoning by-laws that cover massage parlours etc that are in a commercial place of business or have visible signage. There are radius restrictions in regards to schools and various other community centers etc. Such establishments do retain the right to operate should a school or community center open after they are in business. Example a day care opened four doors from a massage parlour that had been open for well over ten years with very obvious signage. The massage parlour was allowed to continue operations.
 

Merlot

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These neighbors do not have to outright call them prostitutes along with the pictures. They can merely describe what the women are doing - walking around the street for long periods of time waiting for cars to pick them up. There would be an implication that they are prostitutes, but the neighbors are not outright calling them such.

Hello Daydreamer,

When someone is described with all the qualities of being an SW such as... she is walking around the streets most of the day and night and getting into many different cars with many different men then leaving out a precise label on that still adds up to calling someone a prostitute. I'll bet any decent lawyer could make the case that your description is libel, especially since the purpose for watching this person is to have them removed or arrested or convicted, not to give them an award.

The law in Quebec (CcQ) is pretty strong and, worse yet, there is Supreme Court of Canada precedent on point (Aubry, 1998). In fact, in Aubry, the photo was completely innocuous and yet the plaintiff still got damages.

What these neighbors are doing is unlawful and very dangerous to their pocket books. If a prostitute (or an incorrectly identified by-standard!) was to sue they would be toast.

More interesting is: would Facebook (deep pockets) also be liable?

Most interesting: will some guy and his girlfriend with a get-rich-quick idea entrap these people and sue?

I read in the link originally provided by The Snark in post 37 that the only reason the same law has not become nationwide is no one has brought a case to court outside of Quebec.

I never go to Facebook and I do not know what legally valid disclaimer they have made regarding their responsibility for what is posted on their website. But it would seem that doing nothing to remove slanderous, libelous, or otherwise legally incriminating information that violates the rights of any entity would leave them open to a lawsuit. I would imagine they are responsible for knowing what is posted and be responsible for doing something about it no matter what their disclaimer might try to encompass. Maybe someone can clarify that point???

Cheers,

Merlot
 

daydreamer41

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Hello Daydreamer,

When someone is described with all the qualities of being an SW such as... she is walking around the streets most of the day and night and getting into many different cars with many different men then leaving out a precise label on that still adds up to calling someone a prostitute. I'll bet any decent lawyer could make the case that your description is libel, especially since the purpose for watching this person is to have them removed or arrested or convicted, not to give them an award.

Cheers,

Merlot

Sorry Merlot. It is not libel, because it is true. Libel is only enforceable if yiou say something about someone that is not true.

If they have pictures of these women walking their streets and hailing cars and entering the cars, then the burden of truth is met. Therefore, what they are saying is true. IF they do not go out and say they are prostitutes, then where is the Libel?

Sorry, but any wonderful lawyer you know would lose his case.
 

Techman

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The law in Quebec (CcQ) is pretty strong and, worse yet, there is Supreme Court of Canada precedent on point (Aubry, 1998). In fact, in Aubry, the photo was completely innocuous and yet the plaintiff still got damages.

What these neighbors are doing is unlawful and very dangerous to their pocket books. If a prostitute (or an incorrectly identified by-standard!) was to sue they would be toast.

More interesting is: would Facebook (deep pockets) also be liable?

Most interesting: will some guy and his girlfriend with a get-rich-quick idea entrap these people and sue?

For those interested in the Aubry case, you can reference it here. I had looked this up the last time a controversy came up about posting pics on the boards but I think the thread was closed or removed by the mods before I had the chance to post the link:

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1998/1998scr1-591/1998scr1-591.html


The respondent brought an action in civil liability against the appellants, a photographer and the publisher of a magazine, for taking and publishing, in a magazine dedicated to the arts, a photograph showing the respondent, then aged 17, sitting on the steps of a building. The photograph, which was taken in a public place, was published without the respondent’s consent. The trial judge recognized that the unauthorized publication of the photograph constituted a fault and ordered the appellants to pay $2,000 jointly and severally. The majority of the Court of Appeal affirmed this decision.
 

Merlot

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Sorry Merlot. It is not libel, because it is true. Libel is only enforceable if yiou say something about someone that is not true.

If they have pictures of these women walking their streets and hailing cars and entering the cars, then the burden of truth is met. Therefore, what they are saying is true. IF they do not go out and say they are prostitutes, then where is the Libel?

Sorry, but any wonderful lawyer you know would lose his case.

Hello Daydreamer,

I don't know what the standard for proving prostitution in Canada/Quebec is, but in the U.S. it has hinged on the exchange on money directly for sex, unless the laws have been modified. Considering the carefully common use of the word "companionship" in escort advertisements it seems the same standards apply there. So getting into many cars with many men is probably not quite enough to prove prostitution legally. But it does seem enough for the clear implication and using that description/implication is probably libel without the proof of money for sex. I am not saying the libel charge is a slam dunk for any lawyer, but the case could be argued and won...in my opinion. And, if it's a jury case then the opinion of the common juror is what decides the matter. But if it's only up to a judge it still just a matter of opinion that can go either way. There doesn't have to be a label like "prostitute" if the description points directly to the label to make it libel.

Cheers,

Merlot
 
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eastender

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Oh Well.................

Hello Daydreamer,

I don't know what the standard for proving prostitution in Canada/Quebec is, but in the U.S. it has hinged on the exchange on money directly for sex, unless the laws have been modified. Considering the carefully common use of the word "companionship" in escort advertisements it seems the same standards apply there. So getting into many cars with many men is probably not quite enough to prove prostitution legally. But it does seem enough for the clear implication and using that description/implication is probably libel without the proof of money for sex. I am not saying the libel charge is a slam dunk for any lawyer, but the case could be argued and won...in my opinion. If it's a jury case then the opinion of the common juror is what decides the matter.

Cheers,

Merlot

Merlot,

Oh well.........civil cases in Quebec are tried before a judge only. No jury trials in civil cases. The defendant may elect a jury trial in a criminal trial. This would not be the case in this instance.
 

Kepler

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various posters said said:
...description is libel...Facebook and legally valid disclaimers.... Libel is only enforceable if you say something about someone that is not true.

First, it doesn't matter if the description is true or not. In Quebec, even convicted prostitutes have rights of privacy and of ownership over their image, and could sue.

Second, Facebook's contract is worthless. It only binds the person who posts the pictures. The putative streetwalkers have never signed a contract with Facebook, so they are not bound. Off the top of my head, I don't think that Canada has yet passed a "safe harbour" provision like the USA's DMCA. Until ACTA becomes law here, I think Facebook could be vulnerable.

Third, truth is not necessarily a defense to defamation in Quebec! This is not a Common Law province. Specifically, saying something truthful out of malice can be a "fault" under the CcQ. But it doesn't matter either way: see point #1.
 
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Merlot

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First, it doesn't matter if the description is true or not. In Quebec, even convicted prostitutes have rights of privacy and of ownership over their image, and could sue.

Second, Facebook's contract is worthless. It only binds the person who posts the pictures. The putative streetwalkers have never signed a contract with Facebook, so they are not bound. Off the top of my head, I don't think that Canada has yet passed a "safe harbour" provision like the USA's DMCA. Until ACTA becomes law here, I think Facebook could be vulnerable.

Third, truth is not necessarily a defense to defamation in Quebec! This is not a Common Law province. Specifically, saying something truthful out of malice can be a "fault" under the CcQ. But it doesn't matter either way: see point #1.

Hello Kepler,

Great to have you involved here. I don't know the laws in Canada/Quebec as I have already said. But given you are accurate in what you state it seems the laws there are extremely similar to those in the U.S. Yes, even in the extreme, convicts on death row have rights, so obviously SWs have the same and the tactics of this episode legally actionable...whatever the results may be.

Cheers,

Merlot
 

daydreamer41

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Hello Kepler,

Great to have you involved here. I don't know the laws in Canada/Quebec as I have already said. But given you are accurate in what you state it seems the laws there are extremely similar to those in the U.S. Yes, even in the extreme, convicts on death row have rights, so obviously SWs have the same and the tactics of this episode legally actionable...whatever the results may be.

Cheers,

Merlot

From what Kepler said, the laws in the US and Quebec are not similar at all. In the US, truth is an absolute defense to libel no matter the extent of maliciousness.And from what Kepler said, I gather in the other provinces, the libel law may be different. He said that Quebec is not a Common law province.

But getting back to what I said earlier, just merely stating that the women are loitering in the neighborhood and getting in cars may imply prostitution, but if they never come out and say it, how are they explicitly saying that these women are doing prostitution? The conclusion is the reader's. Of course 9 out of 10 people may conclude that's what they are doing, but they are not saying it.

Plus, how can you claim privacy when it is being done on a public street? How does anyone have the right of privacy in public? There are security cameras all over the place. Are these cameras violating people's privacy. I don;t think so. If a landlord puts a camera in a tenant;s premises, then the landlord would be violating the tenant's privacy.

But if a camera is on the street? or a supermarket? There is no privacy violation. The same thing is happening here. Anything you do in public is open to scrutiny.
 

eastender

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Public Interest

First, it doesn't matter if the description is true or not. In Quebec, even convicted prostitutes have rights of privacy and of ownership over their image, and could sue.

Second, Facebook's contract is worthless. It only binds the person who posts the pictures. The putative streetwalkers have never signed a contract with Facebook, so they are not bound. Off the top of my head, I don't think that Canada has yet passed a "safe harbour" provision like the USA's DMCA. Until ACTA becomes law here, I think Facebook could be vulnerable.

Third, truth is not necessarily a defense to defamation in Quebec! This is not a Common Law province. Specifically, saying something truthful out of malice can be a "fault" under the CcQ. But it doesn't matter either way: see point #1.

In Quebec "truth" has to pass the additional test of being in the public interest. In this situation public interest would be fairly easy to show.The pictured parties would have to show malice which I have yet to see anyone produce an argument for.

Specifically how are parents protecting their and other children from the dangers of syringes and used condoms, careless drivers acting out of malice? How are home owners or tenants living in fear of quickly depreciating investments and the danger of fire acting out of malice?

The abstracts to date are not supported by the realities.
 

eastender

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Privacy

From what Kepler said, the laws in the US and Quebec are not similar at all. In the US, truth is an absolute defense to libel no matter the extent of maliciousness.And from what Kepler said, I gather in the other provinces, the libel law may be different. He said that Quebec is not a Common law province.

But getting back to what I said earlier, just merely stating that the women are loitering in the neighborhood and getting in cars may imply prostitution, but if they never come out and say it, how are they explicitly saying that these women are doing prostitution? The conclusion is the reader's. Of course 9 out of 10 people may conclude that's what they are doing, but they are not saying it.

Plus, how can you claim privacy when it is being done on a public street? How does anyone have the right of privacy in public? There are security cameras all over the place. Are these cameras violating people's privacy. I don;t think so. If a landlord puts a camera in a tenant;s premises, then the landlord would be violating the tenant's privacy.

But if a camera is on the street? or a supermarket? There is no privacy violation. The same thing is happening here. Anything you do in public is open to scrutiny
.

Privacy on a public street within the context of as far as "the eye can see". People are protected from someone posting such images for global viewing under certain conditions that have been discussed previously.
 

EagerBeaver

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Plus, how can you claim privacy when it is being done on a public street? How does anyone have the right of privacy in public? There are security cameras all over the place. Are these cameras violating people's privacy. I don;t think so. If a landlord puts a camera in a tenant;s premises, then the landlord would be violating the tenant's privacy.But if a camera is on the street? or a supermarket? There is no privacy violation. The same thing is happening here. Anything you do in public is open to scrutiny.

Your analysis is flawed because you are focused solely on the initial act of compiling the photographic images rather than the subsequent re-use of those images in a manner that violates the law. From what Kepler has already said is the law in Quebec, and from what I know is the law in New York, it is that law that applies to the subsequent use that we are talking about in this thread. That subsequent use MAY violate the law depending on what the use is, its intent, its labeling, and whether it is deemed commercial or not. In this case the subsequent use would seem to be a possible violation of the law. You are confusing the "reasonable expectation of privacy" analysis with the "unauthorized use" analysis.

Of course surveillance video in stores and in public places is very common. It is usually done to monitor or create a record of possible criminal acts so that if and when they occur, the video can then be turned over to LE for investigation. There is no problem with that. But that is not what we are talking about in this thread.

And it should be noted that if these photographic images were turned over to Montreal LE, rather than being posted on Facebook, there could be immunity from any claim of defamation or violation of privacy. I will let Kepler speak to that issue more specifically under Quebec law, but in most US jurisdictions citizens have immunity for otherwise actionable defamatory statements or writings or publications, if they are made to LE as part or a criminal investigation or complaint. This immunity doctrine also extends to statements made to governmental agencies or boards, although the immunity may be qualified.

An example of this would be a zoning hearing to open a strip club across the street from daydreamer41's house. Daydreamer41 listens to the applicant's presentation, stands up and says, "that guy is a whoremaster who is running a brothel on the other side of town! He should not be allowed to open up a strip club across the street from my house!" Depending on the jurisdiction, Daydreamer41 would likely enjoy qualified immunity in the applicant's subsequent slander lawsuit against him. I could probably get it tossed in Connecticut on the grounds of a state common law doctrine we have (called the Noerr-Pennington Doctrine) that is strongly rooted in federal case law that in turn gives a very expansive definition to free speech that is made to governmental agencies, including local zoning boards. On the other hand, if Daydreamer 41 made the same statement in his local supermarket in front of 5 other people, he's toast on the defamation claim, which would be deemed slander per se because it implies a crime of moral turpitude.

The public policy behind all of these laws is to encourage citizens to freely communicate with LE/governmental agencies about issues effecting the public at large without fear of being sued for defamation or violation of privacy laws. That same public policy would not apply where citizens take matters into their own hands and post images on the Internet in an effort to privately chill or regulate some activity they do not like or approve of. The law will always favor and protect the citizen who brings criminal activity to the attention of LE rather than the citizen who acts on his own to stop it. Otherwise, the police would soon have nothing to do other than eat donuts if more and more citizens acted as private LE or private attorneys general.

One other thing: privacy laws are tightening across the USA, primarily due to the rise in identity theft, which is somewhat ironic especially in light of the recent Tiger Woods story and the unbridled vigor with which the press seems to go after such stories with really nothing being considered sacred or out of bounds. We have a new law going into effect on January 1, 2010 in Connecticut require redaction of all "personal identifying information" in documents filed with the Court (meaning social security numbers, dates of birth etc.) I just recently got a call about such a violation and I had to tell the person that the law is not effective until 2010.
 
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Kepler

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First, we should keep in mind the real danger that innocent people may be captured in these pictures, in which case there would be a civil fault.

Second, it's very possible to wish to defend your children and simultaneously act out of malice. eg: you could be so driven by anger at local prostitutes that you commit acts which don't improve your children's safety and yet inflict harm on others. I don't see how posting pictures of women on Facebook helps anything.

Third, and most important: A local street walker probably has little money. A local resident probably has some money. If one sues the other, which way does the money flow? A lawyer might take the streetwalker's case on a percentage basis, but the residents will have to pay their lawyer out of pocket (you cannot recover lawyer's fees in Quebec, so even if the residents win their case, they are out of pocket).
 

daydreamer41

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To EB, from what I read in the news links posted here, the residents have made complaints to law enforcement.

I have not seen what they posted on Facebook. I don't use Facebook. I have seen friend's pages and it is too much info for me to post or see.

Anyhow, these residents could be very non-accusatory on their pages and just post actions they witnessed, like I have stated - loitering lengthy periods waiting for cars, entering cars and riding off and returning at a later time to do the same thing. I don't see how a Judge would rule against them. In fact, it could be viewed as a News story.


First, we should keep in mind the real danger that innocent people may be captured in these pictures, in which case there would be a civil fault.

Second, it's very possible to wish to defend your children and simultaneously act out of malice. eg: you could be so driven by anger at local prostitutes that you commit acts which don't improve your children's safety and yet inflict harm on others. I don't see how posting pictures of women on Facebook helps anything.

Third, and most important: A local street walker probably has little money. A local resident probably has some money. If one sues the other, which way does the money flow? A lawyer might take the streetwalker's case on a percentage basis, but the residents will have to pay their lawyer out of pocket (you cannot recover lawyer's fees in Quebec, so even if the residents win their case, they are out of pocket).

To Kepler, as far as the innocent people captured in these pictures, these residents know who is working and who is hanging out. It is obvious if you stay and watch for an extended period of time, day after day. The same girls would show up on a regular basis flagging down guys in cars and return after a short period of time.

The problem is the Montreal police refuse to do their job. If the police did their duty in this case, the residents would not feel the need to create such a Facebook account.

The residents probably are many in number and would pull their money together. Maybe some low-life lawyer will approach these street walkers and attempt a suit. Who knows? But I say the bottom line again is the city is ignoring the problem of the residents. The residents must feel pretty desperate to go as far as posting pictures of these women on an open Facebook account.
 

eastender

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Does Posting the Pictures Help

First, we should keep in mind the real danger that innocent people may be captured in these pictures, in which case there would be a civil fault.

Second, it's very possible to wish to defend your children and simultaneously act out of malice. eg: you could be so driven by anger at local prostitutes that you commit acts which don't improve your children's safety and yet inflict harm on others. I don't see how posting pictures of women on Facebook helps anything.

Third, and most important: A local street walker probably has little money. A local resident probably has some money. If one sues the other, which way does the money flow? A lawyer might take the streetwalker's case on a percentage basis, but the residents will have to pay their lawyer out of pocket (you cannot recover lawyer's fees in Quebec, so even if the residents win their case, they are out of pocket).

Let's see. Posting the picture received multimedia coverage in French and English. Plus pages of debate on the various boards for over one week.

Would you say that transient hobbyist traffic in the area is down, the same or up? Down and its very effective.
 

YouVantOption

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In a house, on a street, duh.
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YVO, please.

Thats the whole point, I do not rely on Google for my education.. While a good search engine is a great tool, one needs a bit of processing power to correctly assimilate the information.

Good luck with the search thing..

Ok, so what precisely do you rely upon for your education? You posted a synopsis of PIPEDA's date of enforcement, and its jurisdiction, none of which speaks to the issue at hand per se, and then concluded somehow that my statements about current cases and investigations conducted by the Office of the Privacy Commissioner (all of which I have read in their entirety, as well as PIPEDA itself) of its applicability are wrong. Prove your assertions.
 

YouVantOption

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In a house, on a street, duh.
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http://www.montrealmirror.com/2005/080405/news1.html

"Quebec is the only place in North America where photographers are required to get permission from the subjects of photographs that will be presented to the public. The only situations where such a permission is not mandatory is when the photo is of a crowd, if it's considered legitimate news or considered to be in the public interest."

If anyone cares to read the actual judgement instead of a sloppy news report that fails to cite the specifics of the case law, it can be found here:

http://www.jugements.qc.ca/php/deci...318BE40B9A71C1358EA9D8F840131477D46E504B01B32

The litigant won her claim (1), but not: l'article 49 de la Charte des droits et libertés de la personne (L.R.Q., c. C-12). My very cursory reading indicates defamation in a publication was the root concern, and the win. A lawyer called to the Quebec bar would be the appropriate legal resource to determine if this case applies to the Facebook page, or as I said previously, complaints by the tricks or hookers could be filed under PIPEDA, due to their publication in public electronic media.

(1) Selon la Cour du Québec, les actes du photographe et de la maison d'édition portaient atteinte au droit à l'image et, partant, à la vie privée. En conséquence, elle les assimilait à une faute civile, sur laquelle elle fondait une condamnation solidaire à des dommages-intérêts pour indemnisation d'un préjudice moral.
 

Kepler

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Maybe some low-life lawyer will approach these street walkers and attempt a suit.

Even convicted criminals have rights. It's not being a low life to defend the rights of others. We're not in Iran here.


The litigant won her claim (1), but not: l'article 49 de la Charte ...My very cursory reading indicates defamation in a publication...complaints by the tricks or hookers could be filed under PIPEDA.....

She lost under art.49 because that's for punitive damages. The photograph was innocuous, in fact artistic, and the photographer was well intentioned. The same cannot be said in this case.

The case was not about defamation, it was about right to image and privacy under Quebec civil law. In this case, defamation would be an extra ground for suing.

I think you are right that PIPEDA could apply to this case. But PIPEDA is toothless compared to CcQ + Charter damages, so that's the better place to file the case.

I don't think I'll have anything useful to add until additional facts come to light.
 
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