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duetoday

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Sollicitation to be criminal has to happen in public....on the street,in a bar,..
Prostitution is define as (in "homme de la rue" terms)paying for sexual gratification.this is why in the Ontario case of HJ in massage parlour the jule ruled in favour of the defendant.
Turning now to the consideration of whether or not Studio 176 was a place of prostitution? The Court of Appeal of Ontario in Regina v. DiGiuseppe [2002] 161 C.C.C. (3d) 427 (Ont. C.A.) held that section 197 and the term prostitution was not so vague as to violate section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Rather, the use of a community standard test was to be applied. This results in courts applying the test and giving meaning to the word prostitution. As necessity, given that it is a community standard test, means that by definition the word is flexible and will change with time. The question then for my consideration is whether or not the fact that as part of the full body massage the act of masturbation was included constitutes prostitution. This is the only activity of what might be described as being of a sexual nature that has been made reference to in this proceeding. It is important to note that the act was not specifically negotiated for but constituted part of the full body massage if a client chose to participate.



[27] To assist in determining what constitutes prostitution I have considered the decision of R. v. DiGiuseppe [2002] O.J. no. 2138. This is the decision of Justice Gorewich, which underlines the Court of Appeal decision of the same name. I have considered this case because the Court of Appeal did not disagree with the analysis of the trial court judge with respect to what constitutes prostitution but only disagreed as to whether or not the definition was unconstitutionally vague or not. Thus it was the trial judge’s conclusion that was disagreed with and not the analysis by the Court of Appeal. As a result, I accept the definition of prostitution as set out by Justice Gorewich in his decision at paragraph 99, which states:



“Two definitions of prostitution are as follows: - the offering of the body to indiscriminate lewdness for hire as per the Oxford dictionary, (3d) 1973, or in the words of the Ontario Court of Appeal in R. v. DiPaola:

“The word involves the offering of a person’s body for the purpose of sexual intercourse or other sexual gratification in return for payment”.”



[28] Considering the facts before me, as I have found them, I am not satisfied when applying the community standard test that the act as described in this proceeding constituted prostitution. I am not satisfied that the Crown has shown the activity, using the community standard test, constitutes acts of sexual gratification in return for the payment of money.



[29] The payment of money as I have found it was for a full body massage. The act of masturbation was optional, at no additional fee. Indeed, I wonder, and am left in a doubt as to whether or not the community might consider the act of masturbation in all situations to be sexual. One only needs to look to the conduct of a certain president of the United States and the response to activity that he participated in to wonder whether or not the act of masturbation is indeed in all circumstances a sexual act. Given that the act was done in private, as part of a massage, participated in voluntarily by all individuals, and a fee was paid regardless of whether or not the act took place, I am not satisfied that the Crown has met its onus and that the conduct constituted prostitution.


CONCLUSION
[30] Given the findings above, I am not satisfied that the Crown has met its obligation and proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt and as such Mr. Ponomarev will be found not guilty of both counts.
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Aeolus

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If Lisa is just an employee or independent contractor of the Spa she works at, need she be worried about the bawdy house law? Isn't that the problem of the owner

My reading of the code is that provider, patron, and owner can all be charged under the bawdy house law. Unsure of the case law, though. That always mucks things up.

Nobody will be accused of being a prostitute or being the customer of a prostitute because these accusations do not exist in Canada.

That's of little comfort when the Crown can nail you under the bawdy house law. When they list a conviction on your record and stick you with a fine (or, less likely, send you to the penal colony), it really doesn't matter what they call it. I'm guessing that the penalties and stigma of each charge (prostitution, solicitation, and bawdy house) are roughly equivalent.

Duetoday, while a successful defense against such charges is always possible in theory, the expense of legal proceedings sadly causes many people to simply plead guilty. For a lot of people, it doesn't make sense to spend $10,000 to avoid a $500 fine, especially if they truly are guilty and aren't at risk of losing their freedom or their jobs. Unfortunately, justice is seldom free.
 

EagerBeaver

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So when the smoke clears on all this what is Lisa supposed to do? Continue giving straight therapeutic massages to clients who are suspected of being cops? Invest in a polygraph? Maybe just refuse appointments from suspicious looking clients?
 

Aeolus

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So when the smoke clears on all this what is Lisa supposed to do?

The safest bet is outcall massage.

Another possibility (and this may require a little research) is to do background checks on prospective clients to see if they work for SPVM, SQ, or RCMP. If you want to find-out whether someone works for the government, it's increasingly easy to do. All 8,000 state employees in Vermont, for instance, can be looked-up by name and agency on the state's website. Want to know if John Doe works for the state police? Then simply type in his name. What's more, policing is a regulated profession, and as with most regulated professions, there is usually a database somewhere that citizens can access to check on whether someone is licensed to work in that profession. There's a lot of information out there; you just have to know how to find it. Granted, if someone has a common name, such a search might be pointless because I'm sure a records check will reveal an officer by the name of John Smith. By the way, what's the French equivalent of John Smith?
 

daydreamer41

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It`s for the reasons Merlot already alluded to and which my post alluded to, setting up an entrapment defense. I am no expert in criminal law but my recollection from my evidence class is that there would then be a ``fruit from the poisonous tree`` defense as to any evidence yielded by a subsequent search pursuant to a warrant. That is why they do the free 15 second in NYC and the free tit or pussy grope in Boston. Vice cops work with prosecutors, and prosecutors do not want them behaving in ways that will fuck up a prosecution. This is common sense. I have seen criminal murder trials where cops were cross examined about all manner of fuckups and violations of police department protocols in investigating a crime. Good criminal defense attorneys will know the Vice Squad policy manual backwards, forwards and sideways. I have seen cross examination in court on cops who were made to look dumber than negative 200 IQ by really good criminal defense attorneys.

In the USA, guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and reasonable doubt is very easy to create if someone comes into court and says that a cop was a willing participant in, or else initiated the illegal activity. You would also have to look at the elements of the offense charged and see whether any of them might be negated by a cop engaging in this behavior. Because of the existence and developing sophistication of videotaping ability in electronic devices that are cheap and can easily be hidden, more and more prosecutions are getting hampered because the cop is shown doing something he/she should not have been doing. We don`t know whether Lisa has secret security videocams in her Spa, and it would not be in her best interests to reveal that on this board. I am thinking most Spas probably do have security cameras for this reason, and to monitor what is going on with the ladies.

In civil practice, more and more accidents and incidents are being captured on video. I have had several cases where motor vehicle accidents in gas stations were captured on video as well shoplifting incidents in department stores. Note that the CraigsList Killer who committed suicide was ID`d and caught because he was caught on video leaving the hotel.

My post was meant to assist Lisa in thinking about ways to screen for LE. However, I do not know what Montreal LE can and cannot do during an investigation that could subsequently jeopardize the investigation. Some of the prior posts are very unhelpful as they offer speculation that is not really applicable involving wayward cops who were laughed out of court, or else involved off duty cops. Nobody has posted any meaningful response to the question of what Montreal LE can and cannot do during an investigation should Lisa choose to screen by allowing a free grope of her tits or pussy, or a 15 second . I think Lisa would assume that the cop will behave professionally and legally and the question is, what does that mean in Montreal?

BTW I wonder what happens if someone prematurely ejaculates during the 15 second free in NYC? I suppose it is on the house?

If you have an accident, they`ll want you take a shower before the 2nd round when he pays for the second round.

My question was not why they force the guy to engage in a sexual act before they let him in.

My question is if he is actually a cop, would the attempt of getting him to engage in a sexual act and he refuses, and they refuse to let him in the door - would a Judge see this as suspicious behavior and grant the police a search warrant. In other words, they would defeat their purpose. I really don`t know the answer, and I suppose its all theory.

But I always wondered why women would ask for the money up front in the US. They should never ask for money. And money should only be exchanged at the end of the time. A cop would not go thru with the deed for the reasons you said. True some guys would try to get a freebee, but they could only do that once. Every description of a bust I have read, the woman collected her fee and proceeded to initiate a sexual encounter. Before she can do anything, the rest of the cops move in for the arrest. An arrest is far more costly than any jerk that would refuse to pay.
 

daydreamer41

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Tommy, in a MP, sollicitation is one crime you are the less likely to be accused of. Remember, CANADA! Sollicitation in private is 100% legal. A massage room with walls and a door is private because there is a presumption of privacy. It is illegal if the guy start discussing options in the lobby with people around. It is illegal if the girl start discussing options in the lobby. A girl discussing the options in the lobby makes the job easier for the cop. What cops are after is bawdy house accusations and living of the avails.

metoo, Couldn't a massage place be considered a bawdy house, if all that happens there is multiple girls engage in sex for money? I am a little confused by your statement.
 

StefanoUS

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The first time I ever met an escort in Boston, where outcall escorting is and was illegal, she entered my hotel room and before any discussion about money occurred, she pointed at her left tit and asked me to touch it, saying simply: "touch me here". I complied with this request and felt her tit. A Boston cop cannot touch tit or pussy which is why she asked me to do it. She then determined I was not LE and asked me for the money.

Can an on duty Montreal cop touch a tit or pussy? I think not. So before you have any discussion with a client ask them to touch your tit. Then you will know it is not a cop.

It's a free feel, for sure, but what price is your security from LE? I would think a lot more than allowing a free feel or grope of your tit.

Free feel? The place I go to in NYC, when you go in the girl asks you to take your dick out and she sucks on it, that's their LE test. Why didn't they have tests like that in high school? LOL
 

sexxxymtl

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Multiple times I've asked him to get him self comfy... And to take off his clothes... He first kept blanket over him, then towel around him so before talking, I removed all and he was in his in his underwear still... I asked if it was his first time in this type of establishment and he said no, and asked if he would like to make him self more comfy I'll be back in 2 sec. Did that and he was still in his underwear....

what made think e was a LE? why don't you elaborate?
 

sexxxymtl

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That's fine and I know when I've had clients that are cops.. I'm talking about cops that come in for a maybe bust.... Two different situations....
Lxoxo


Why wouldn't the cop (male or female) go along with the ruse and deny it later. There are no witnesses. Male cops would enjoy a free feel, and surely there are plenty of women cops who would allow a feel up if it got them the bust (pun intended).

sinbad
 

sexxxymtl

Guess who's back to play!
True and they do... But it's also with my co workers... I like to try and protect everyone.. They may not bust me, but what if it's a girl who is younge and not sure...

Lxoxo


I think as I recall from the old bootlegging and pot smuggling days... The trick is to just ask them.. Are you a cop, or officer of law.. Cochon.., policeman.., etc,.
And that they would have to give you a straight response..?
 

daydreamer41

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This is very easy. Continue to give him a straight massage. Nothing else. Do not offer him anything else. Let him pay the door fee. Don't ask him to take his underware off again. Give him a good strong massage with lots of rubbing alcohol.
 

EagerBeaver

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This is very easy. Continue to give him a straight massage. Nothing else. Do not offer him anything else. Let him pay the door fee. Don't ask him to take his underware off again. Give him a good strong massage with lots of rubbing alcohol.

LOL, very good advice. Use extra strength rubbing alcohol if they make such a thing! LOL!
 

daydreamer41

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lol... that's what I did... lol... I used oils but for clean up 70% rubbing alcohol... and made sure I used it... lol

The extra strength is 90 percent, but either one, he gets the message. No monkey business for him.
 

Merlot

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Nov 13, 2008
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Hello all,

The safest bet is outcall massage.

Another possibility (and this may require a little research) is to do background checks on prospective clients to see if they work for SPVM, SQ, or RCMP. If you want to find-out whether someone works for the government, it's increasingly easy to do. All 8,000 state employees in Vermont, for instance, can be looked-up by name and agency on the state's website. Want to know if John Doe works for the state police? Then simply type in his name. What's more, policing is a regulated profession, and as with most regulated professions, there is usually a database somewhere that citizens can access to check on whether someone is licensed to work in that profession. There's a lot of information out there; you just have to know how to find it. Granted, if someone has a common name, such a search might be pointless because I'm sure a records check will reveal an officer by the name of John Smith. By the way, what's the French equivalent of John Smith?

Aeolus, as we know, undercover work is used and very effective, and a public database would eliminate that since criminals would have access as well as anyone else. Anonymity is not only essential for effectiveness, in dangerous situation it's paramount to protect lives. So I would be extremely surprised if everyone in the LE is on some publicly accessible database that would greatly deter undercover work and possibly cost lives.

So when the smoke clears on all this what is Lisa supposed to do? Continue giving straight therapeutic massages to clients who are suspected of being cops? Invest in a polygraph? Maybe just refuse appointments from suspicious looking clients?

If the "freebie touching" compromises the integrity of the case under the law in that jurisdiction then that would seem foolproof. If he then won't touch he is either in the LE or she won't be making extra cash with him anyway.

Cheers,

Merlot
 
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Aeolus

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Multiple times I've asked him to get him self comfy... And to take off his clothes... He first kept blanket over him, then towel around him so before talking, I removed all and he was in his in his underwear still... I asked if it was his first time in this type of establishment and he said no, and asked if he would like to make him self more comfy I'll be back in 2 sec. Did that and he was still in his underwear....

Doesn't sound like a cop to me. Sounds more like a dork who lied about it being his first time or a guy who has a submission fetish or social phobias. Or perhaps he was just overly self-conscious about his third testicle:). The possibilities are endless, but he probably wasn't a cop. Doesn't sound type-A enough.
 

donethis4years

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From personal experience, you have to be careful of the clients ( undercovers) that come in and ask just for the finishing and options!! They will try to convince the receptionist to flag the whole cover charge and skip the massage for just 15 minutes as they want only the "happy ending". Thoses are the "LE".
 
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