downtown student protests - outcall disruptions

[wasisname]

I also think boobies would be the perfect compromise, but people would argue even more. I think we can all agree that two per woman is the optimal ratio,

...
Ouch! That's a 50% increase!!!

You need to watch Total Recall, the original movie with Arnold not the upcoming remake. Obviously the optimal ratio is 3 per woman.
That is a 50% increase I can get behind.

Rawls, it seems was protesting against the commercialization of places of higher education. Rawls thought that professors should be free to study what they please and students should be free of monetary concerns. Both the author and his subject are against the corporation being involved in higher education.

.

I agree with this. Professors should volunteer and be free to stu.... oh that isn't what he means. Ahh I see. Charming. I guess commercialization is bad unless it involves your pay check.

 

[daydreamer41]

Quite simple. In a civilized society, the people/state recognize that it is society's responsibility to insure the health of the people and to educate the population. A civilized society recognizes the value of an educated people.

In a plutocracy, such as the USA, the government exists for the benefit of the wealthy, its primary purpose protecting property rather than the well-being of the population as a whole. It's a simple question of priority.

The money spent propping up the military-industrial complex, spent subsidizing the oil industry, spent subsidizing the exportation of jobs could more than cover the cost of educating the population.

A civilized society, in your words, rumps, should pay for the need for every citizen, such as Education, Healthcare, Food?

What responsibility does the individual have towards his or her own care?

There have been countries which have done this, rumps, and have failed - Soviet Union, eastern block countries.

There are countries which are doing this now, rumps, and are having a very hard time, Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland.

There are countries which are doing this now, rumps, and their people live in absolute poverty, Cuba, Zimbabwe.

There are countries which are doing this now, rumps, and they have enormous debt, Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland, Belgium, UK.

The US is moving towards a large percentage of debt, with its yearly GDP = its debt at present.

At some point the debt prevents the nation from growing and the taxes goes to paying down its debt and not buying goods and services. Then services become rationed. While everyone will theoretically have free Education and Healthcare, but there's no one to provide it.

This happened in the former Soviet Union. Ask anybody you know who used to live there. They waited in line to get their blocks of Cheese and bread at the Government store.

Is that what you are aiming for, rumps?

 

[Siocnarf]

Students, she said, were surprised to see a church banner because there is such a negative feeling toward the institution in the province.

I'm not surprised. They are a protestant church after all...

What responsibility does the individual have towards his or her own care?

In democracy, they I'd say they have the responsibility of electing a competent government (chosen from all the worthy candidates).

You need to watch Total Recall, the original movie with Arnold not the upcoming remake. Obviously the optimal ratio is 3 per woman.
That is a 50% increase I can get behind.

I think I rather they have just two, but each 50% bigger.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

And there is a country where the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing. In this country, whether you can get an education and get health care is dependent upon your wealth. In this country, the richest people pay a lower portion of their income in taxes than does the middle class. In this country, many large corporations receive billions in government welfare, post huge profits and pay no taxes. This country is the United States of America.

Is this what you want, DD?

In democracy, they I'd say they have the responsibility of electing a competent government (chosen from all the worthy candidates).

Unfortunately, Siocnarf, Canada is the only democracy in North America. The United States is a plutocracy, where corporations have the rights of people, and where elective office goes to the highest bidder.

 

[Merlot]

Hello all,

Did you watch the video? It is entitled "Red Square Revolt". Red Square has Communist connotations, although you wouldn't admit to that.

I heard the phrases: "Anti-Capitalism", "Anti-Banks", "Free Education", "Anarchists". One guy interviewed represented the Communist-Liberty party. What does all of this have to do with protesting tuition hikes?

Having listened to the whole video once and several parts repeatedly, then doing a bit of real research, it's obvious the above is just a bad misrepresentation. The idea that the Red Square represents Communism is clumsy and false.

To the Red Square symbol, to say that this is a Communist symbol is misguided reactionary over simplification, only understandable if one fails to listen. The real meaning of this symbol behind the motivation of the movement is:

http://freeeducationmontreal.org/so-what-does-red-square-mean/

The red square – you might have seen this small, subtle square pinned onto bags, shirts or caps: It all started in 2005 during the student strike that managed to save $103 million in bursaries for Quebec students.

It comes from the French saying “carrément dans le rouge,” which means “squarely in the red” or basically, that students were in debt because of tuition increase and cuts in bursaries.

In 2005, some students even hung a gigantic red square off of the Mount Royal cross, with a sign underneath it saying “Arrêtons de sacrifier nos enfants” (“Let’s stop sacrificing our children.”)

Yes, many of the old boogie man buzz words like anti-capitalist, socialism, anti-corporation are used in the video. But the basic purpose of the movement is an objection to an education system made to serve corporations while imposing a large burden of debt right form the start of their working lives. At 8:50 of the video this is specifically pointed out.

Several pages ago it was noted how large protest movements attract many groups with similar grievances, but often with divergent goals. At 4:50 Stefanie Clermont explains this relationship within the movement by citing how the body of protesters may start out shouting the same slogans, then one groups begins putting out anarchist slogans while other groups put out nationalist slogans. So the idea that this movement can be simply stereotyped into one homogenous boogie man entity is an imposition of bias. It’s founded on one goal, but broader interests have been imposed to exploit the movement.

Personally, I have been sympathetic to the students issues, but not on their side because such a large movement seems excessive when the educational costs in the region are so low on the average. Also, the political leanings of some student groups involved is disturbing. But I can’t blame the students for not waiting for the debt to grow to outlandish proportions in view of the outrageous burdens many American students face at graduation.

Unfortunately the most interesting part of this thread has been the reactions by the observers posting here, rather than the actions of any students. All the specters of Communism, Separatism, Anarchy, Socialism, Fascism, endemic laziness, have been thrown around like a menu of gross stereotypes.

Ish,

Merlot

 

[wasisname]

The United States is a plutocracy, where corporations have the rights of people, and where elective office goes to the highest bidder.

Why should a university education be subsidized when its graduates can't even use a dictionary and continue to toss around terms like democracy, non violence and plutocracy when they obviously don't understand what these words actually mean.

Never mind the utter ignorance as to how foreign countries operate.


BTW
"And I hate blanket statements shot from the hip without so much as one shred of evidence."

Nice. Typical double standard. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If these tactics were used in support of something students and their supporters opposed they would be tossing around terms like anti democratic and violent. I've seem the exact same thing so many times, so many ways.

Freedom of speech, just watch what you say. - Ice T

Not that I am asking for evidence, and if I did, I would not do so in such a rude manner as some people here.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Why should a university education be subsidized when its graduates can't even use a dictionary and continue to toss around terms like democracy, non violence and plutocracy when they obviously don't understand what these words actually mean.

Huh? For example?

Never mind the utter ignorance as to how foreign countries operate.

To which foreign country are you referring? And whose ignorance?

"And I hate blanket statements shot from the hip without so much as one shred of evidence."

Does the name Citizens United ring a bell?

Nice. Typical double standard. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If these tactics were used in support of something students and their supporters opposed they would be tossing around terms like anti democratic and violent. I've seem the exact same thing so many times, so many ways.

What the fuck is this supposed to mean.

 

[daydreamer41]

And there is a country where the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing. In this country, whether you can get an education and get health care is dependent upon your wealth. In this country, the richest people pay a lower portion of their income in taxes than does the middle class. In this country, many large corporations receive billions in government welfare, post huge profits and pay no taxes. This country is the United States of America.

Is this what you want, DD?

Rumps, if you hate the United States so much, why don't immigrate to Canada and move your business there? You already have an apartment in Montreal. You can have free healthcare, contribute more in taxes so your friends can have a cheap Education. Why not? You will be a happier person in Socialist wonderland.

 

[wasisname]

Huh? For example?


To which foreign country are you referring? And whose ignorance?


Does the name Citizens United ring a bell?


What the fuck is this supposed to mean.

I am amazed.
1: The students have contently been claiming to be non violent and about democracy. So many examples.
You claim to read the Gazette, either this is not true or you go straight to the arts or car section.
You yourself misused the plutocracy term. Hell I even quoted it.


2: Again, in the part I quoted from you, you were obviously referring to the US. Last time I checked they be foreign. It seems according to daydreamer that you are actually an American, but in this thread you claimed to read the Gazette everyday, bitch about the anglo media and IIRC talk about the protests as if you are in Montreal. Also in my defense, from a Merb perspective and mine the US is foreign. You should be able to grok it.

3: Does Citizens United ring a bell. What do you think. Does Hogan's Fish and Chips ring a bell to you?
Anyhow, you miss the point. YOU presented a blanket statement without presenting evidence. When accused me of doing the same you asked for evidence in a very rude and dismissive manner and claimed to be bothered when people don't present evidence. Are you related to Alanis Morissette? Oddly enough you didn't seem to understand that what I took exception to at the time was your tone and not the asking for evidence even though I was very clear on that. Even the "Huh? For example?" would have been an acceptable tone to use.
Getting back to the original response, on what planet do you expect someone to know who the Citizens United are. There are obscure groups in the US who claims the US is run by the Jews, but I wouldn't call it evidence. That being said it should also have been obvious that I was not actually asking for evidence, just pointing out your hypocrisy. I know there are people who actually believe that the US is a Plutocracy, hell the local small city library gets Adbusters and Unte Reader, I know the sort of sources you get your delusions of the US from. Unlike some people who claim to read the Gazette... except for the articles it seems.


4: You don't understand this
"Nice. Typical double standard. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If these tactics were used in support of something students and their supporters opposed they would be tossing around terms like anti democratic and violent. I've seem the exact same thing so many times, so many ways."

I'm sorry, but if I have to explain this... you are just proving my point. If you went to university you wasted your time.
Actually this explains a lot of your posting. You don't actually understand what you are reading because either you lack the ability or because you are so partisan and shillish that you are unable to see the obvious. Or are you trying to be difficult. An utter refusal to understand what is being said. An utter refusal to accept any evidence that doesn't jive with your pre conceptions on the flimsiest of basis and yet using citations that much weaker.

 

[daydreamer41]

Merlot,

I did not know about the French language meaning of Red Square. Thank you for pointing that out.

But if you look at the video, you do see the mention of many different leftist and even Communist groups attempting to take over the student movement.

You cannot compare the education system in Canada with the US. Canadians pay more taxes for Education than the US, although the US taxpayer does pay for the Pell Grant, student loans, state and local taxes for state run Universities and Community Colleges.

My question is, do the students even care about the taxes paid towards their education? Or are they just concerned about the tuition that they pay? They will be taxpayers in the near future. I haven't heard about those concerns. I think that they as students, are being myopic and will figure out how much they really pay towards education when they bring home their first pay checks, and thereafter.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

1: The students have contently been claiming to be non violent and about democracy. So many examples.

Some 20 incidents of violence from 300,000 students. Sooooo many examples.

You yourself misused the plutocracy term. Hell I even quoted it.

Plutocracy is rule by wealth. Are you saying the US isn't?????

Anyhow, you miss the point. YOU presented a blanket statement without presenting evidence.

Are you saying the Citizen's United ruling isn't evidence. On what planet?

 

[daydreamer41]

Citizen's United? Gee, rumps, isn't Obama encouraging his packs to post ads? And they will. Liberals are such hypocrites.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Citizen's United? Gee, rumps, isn't Obama encouraging his packs to post ads? And they will. Liberals are such hypocrites.

Are you saying they should play dead and let Romney's multinationals just buy the election. You have to play by the rules, even if the rules are wrong.

 

[Techman]

Citizens United? Just another nutbar group. Any organization that has a Guy Fawkes mask on their homepage is automatically discounted as a bunch of loons.

Rumples, if you are so against big business and human rights abuses, how about you donate all your Apple stock to the student movement? After all, Apple makes their money from products made by underpaid workers in poor working conditions in China, a country with one of the worst human rights records in history. But I guess it's all fine and good when it puts money in your own bank account.

 

[lgna69xxx]

Well some peeps take longer than others, but see what happens when you keep an open mind now repeat after me for a HUGE breakthrough for you, "Brian Burke is the man to lead the Leafs to the playoffs" C'mon bro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2HcRl4wSk

A history making thread: the first time that I have ever agreed with Doc, Tech and Iggy all at the same time.

 

[gugu]

I am amazed.
1: The students have contently been claiming to be non violent and about democracy. So many examples.
You claim to read the Gazette, either this is not true or you go straight to the arts or car section.
You yourself misused the plutocracy term. Hell I even quoted it.


2: Again, in the part I quoted from you, you were obviously referring to the US. Last time I checked they be foreign. It seems according to daydreamer that you are actually an American, but in this thread you claimed to read the Gazette everyday, bitch about the anglo media and IIRC talk about the protests as if you are in Montreal. Also in my defense, from a Merb perspective and mine the US is foreign. You should be able to grok it.

3: Does Citizens United ring a bell. What do you think. Does Hogan's Fish and Chips ring a bell to you?
Anyhow, you miss the point. YOU presented a blanket statement without presenting evidence. When accused me of doing the same you asked for evidence in a very rude and dismissive manner and claimed to be bothered when people don't present evidence. Are you related to Alanis Morissette? Oddly enough you didn't seem to understand that what I took exception to at the time was your tone and not the asking for evidence even though I was very clear on that. Even the "Huh? For example?" would have been an acceptable tone to use.
Getting back to the original response, on what planet do you expect someone to know who the Citizens United are. There are obscure groups in the US who claims the US is run by the Jews, but I wouldn't call it evidence. That being said it should also have been obvious that I was not actually asking for evidence, just pointing out your hypocrisy. I know there are people who actually believe that the US is a Plutocracy, hell the local small city library gets Adbusters and Unte Reader, I know the sort of sources you get your delusions of the US from. Unlike some people who claim to read the Gazette... except for the articles it seems.


4: You don't understand this
"Nice. Typical double standard. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If these tactics were used in support of something students and their supporters opposed they would be tossing around terms like anti democratic and violent. I've seem the exact same thing so many times, so many ways."

I'm sorry, but if I have to explain this... you are just proving my point. If you went to university you wasted your time.
Actually this explains a lot of your posting. You don't actually understand what you are reading because either you lack the ability or because you are so partisan and shillish that you are unable to see the obvious. Or are you trying to be difficult. An utter refusal to understand what is being said. An utter refusal to accept any evidence that doesn't jive with your pre conceptions on the flimsiest of basis and yet using citations that much weaker.

Sorry, mods, I take exception to the quotation rule here but....

Hey was, could you please try to be more opaque?

Giving lessons to a US citizen about Montreal? I bet he knows more about Montréal then many Québecois do. As far as I am concerned, he is most welcome to make any comments about this conflict, as much as DD is. You don't like it? Don't read it. Your contribution to this thread has been totally 'innocent" in the french second meaning of the word, so far. So, for the first time on this forum I'll insult someone, using your own words: "you can go fornicate yourself", idiot.

So you don't understand why university education should be subsidized?

 

[daydreamer41]

Are you saying they should play dead and let Romney's multinationals just buy the election. You have to play by the rules, even if the rules are wrong.

Are you kidding? Obama got more support from multinationals than McCain did last election. Stop with your propaganda. That's the only thing you libs are good at - propaganda.

Citizen's United was about Free Speech. That's how the US Supreme Court ruled. We know the Left hates Free Speech, because when the opposition presents the truth, the Left loses. Truth is never on the side of the Left.

 

[Techman]

University education should be subsidized for everyone up to a point but not to the tune of 100% or even 88%. Those who require financial help should not be turned away and should be eligible for grants, bursaries and loans and those who have proved by their scholastic record that they are exceptional students should receive scholarships. I think the time is here for private Universities along side the state run institutions as in the US. Those students who want the best education possible and have the financial means to afford it could go private which would free up funds for the state run universities.

By the way...I'm also against our universal day care programs.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Are you kidding? Obama got more support from multinationals than McCain did last election. Stop with your propaganda. That's the only thing you libs are good at - propaganda.

Bullshit. And this coming from one whose brain is repeated laundered by Fox Noise, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican party.

Citizen's United was about Free Speech. That's how the US Supreme Court ruled. We know the Left hates Free Speech, because when the opposition presents the truth, the Left loses. Truth is never on the side of the Left.

Yeah, free speech for corporations. Probably the most dangerous ruling of the Supreme Court in US history.

I've received confirmation of the below. The delightful young woman who just left my place not only confirmed that she was wearing a red patch this afternoon, but that ALL of the girls from her agency wear them.

 

[daydreamer41]

Bullshit. And this coming from one whose brain is repeated laundered by Fox Noise, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican party.


Yeah, free speech for corporations. Probably the most dangerous ruling of the Supreme Court in US history.

Must you curse, rumps? You come across as low class.

Do you have any sources to back up your opinion? No. Leftist like you never do.

Below are some links. I'm sure you're going to read them (not). Obama received $18 million to McCain's 5.8 million in contributions from Big corporations.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katehicks/2011/10/12/by_the_numbers_who_did_wall_street_buy_in_2008

Obama got the majority from BP and their employees:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/05/us-politico-obama-bp-idUSTRE64420A20100505

Obama collected a total of $130,000 from AIG in 2008, while McCain accepted a total of $59,499.

​

http://johninnorthcarolina.blogspot.com/2009/03/will-obama-mccain-dodd-return-aig.html

​

Do you want me to continue to make you look like such a fool? Debating with you is easy. All I have to do is present the facts.

And by the way, Corporations are made up of people. They are owned by shareholders, who are people. I understand you own Apple Stock. It has done well, hasn't it rumps? So why shouldn't corporations have the right to present their opinion, rumps? Why is free speech only good for leftists, and not everyone? But corporations seem to support leftists like Obama. Isn't that strange?

​