downtown student protests - outcall disruptions

[gugu]

EB, this table gives an idea of real tuition fee in some countries. Of course, when you guys talk about the Ivy league, it is one thing. But the truth of the matter is that the average annual tuition in 2008-2009 in the USA was at 6,3 K.

Education is a provincial jurisdiction in Canada. Back in the sixties, in Québec, we have chosen the free education model, comparable to the one in most european countries. Some concessions were made over time, within what some consider to be a reasonable margin. It helped us to get the highest post secondary attendance in Canada today, a great contributor to Québec's vitality.

Some people say that the ones benefiting from higher education should be the ones paying for it. Others say higher education is a benefit for everybody so it is a society's duty to pay for it. As a citizen, I am willing to pay the taxes needed to have an educated youth. IMHO, it is advantageous socially, economically, culturally and fiscally.

Why is there a conflict now? Because the government is showing a clear willingness to depart from that model. Like many other citizens, I am angry that this is done without a public debate.

 

[daydreamer41]

gugu, did you read what that table said under its heading?

This section is empty, insufficiently detailed or incomplete. ​

Your help

is welcome!

I would go for insufficiently detailed. No way in 2008-2009 that the Average tuition was 6,300 $ US. No freaking way. The community college near me is more than $6,300. It is over $7,000 per year. Plus, there is no source to that table. SO don't go saying the truth of the matter is, when the non-fact you quote is unsubstantiated.

Let's look at 6 public schools and 6 private schools, all non-Ivy League, including fees but not room, board and books. All public schools are for resident students. It is double for out of state residents. Also, with room, board, health insurance, transportation and spending money, the costs double, as shown on the UCLA website.

State sponsored Schools:

Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ (state) 12,755

http://admissions.rutgers.edu/costs/tuitionandfees.aspx

UCLA, Los Angeles, CA (state) 12,688

http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

Michigan State, East Lansing, MI (state) 12,822 (tuition) 8,024 (room & board)

https://test.admissions.msu.edu/finances/tuition.asp

University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY (state) 9,128

http://www.uky.edu/Registrar/feesgen.htm

SUNY, Purchase (state) 6,081

http://www.purchase.edu/departments/AcademicPrograms/ce/RCC/TuitionAndFees.aspx

University of Virginia (state) 12,224 (tuition) 25,284 (room, board, etc)

http://www.virginia.edu/financialaid/estimated.php


Private Schools:

Villanova University (Pennsylvania) 42,150

http://www.villanova.edu/finance/budget/rates.htm

NYU, New York, NY 39,344

http://www.nyu.edu/bursar/tuition.fees/rates11/ugcas.html

Susquehanna University (Pennsylvania) 37,280 (tuition) 10,000 (room & meal plan)

http://www.susqu.edu/admissions/1181.asp

Duke University (North Carolina) 44,101 (Tuition) 6,140 (Room) 5,630 (board) 3,472 (books) for a grand total of 59,343

http://admissions.duke.edu/faq/indexf222.html?iQuestionID=526 &iCategoryID=0

Sweet Briar College (Women's College in Virginia) 31,850 (tuition)

http://sbc.edu/financial-aid/tuition-fees

Stetson University (Florida) 36,344 (tuition)

http://sbc.edu/financial-aid/tuition-fees



Of 6 State schools that I listed, only 1 is remotely within the 6,500 range that you quoted. That school is heavily subsided by New York State.

The other public schools, including room and board will set a student back $80,000 going there 4 years.

For the private schools, forget about it. It will set a kid back $150,000 to $200,000 for 4 year attendance.

6,500 even in 2008-2009 is a pipe dream. Check for sources before quoting them, gugu.
​

 

[Techman]

gugu, you fail to mention that we also have the highest secondary school drop out rate in the country.

I'll be happy with our low tuition fees if they include a contract that a graduate must work in his field, in Quebec, for 5 years after graduation before moving elsewhere. If he leaves the province to work elsewhere, he becomes liable for the full value of his education. This would ensure that Quebec society does indeed gain the benefit of paying for this education system.

Merlot, could you or anyone else explain to me what is so restrictive and terrible about Bill 78? Could someone explain to me where this removes freedom of expression or the freedom to demonstrate?

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Can you guys give me reason why I should feel sorry for these Concordia students?

Actually, Beav, there's no need to feel sorry for Concordia students. There are very few students from the Anglo schools on strike.

You can keep blathering all you want about this, but the simple fact is you know nothing about what is going on. Daydreamer knows nothing about what is going on. Merlot knows nothing about what is going on. I know nothing about what is going on. And I dare say Techman knows nothing about what is going on.

You think these kids are risking their futures over 325$ a year? I highly doubt it. It's much more complex than that. Got it. Complex. You guy want to simplify it, but it just doesn't work. They go marching down the streets and the people in the neighbourhoods come outside and cheer them on. The little kids bang on pots and pans along with their parents. It's not as simple as you'd like to make it. I'd explain it to you if I understood the deeper roots of the situation, but I simply don't know. I'm not of their culture. But what I can absolutely tell you is that they have the support of the vast majority of the French speaking population of this city, including I dare say, the police.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I thought some of the emotional short-sighted stereotypes being used before were bad enough, then comes idiotic references to communism, hippies, and silly fantasies about war zones and Afghanistan.

Don't forget them damn college perfessers and them lib'rels, Merlot. We've got one post here where the Fox Noise Ambassador to Merb mentions them lib'rels no less than five times. It's the fault of them lib'rel college perfessers and them lib'rel ideas them lib'rel college perfessers keep feeding these poor impressionable kids.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Gugu,

I don't think the information in the article you cite to is accurate. The University of Connecticut, which is perhaps the best public State funded university in the northeastern USA, charges $8,712 for annual tuition. But when you add in university and student fees, residence hall fees (it is not a commuter school, it is located in the boondocks), and meal plan, the number for in-state children of taxpayers swells to $22,622. For out of state residents, the numbers are $26,544 for tuition and $40,454 inclusive of the other costs. Reference the UConn website:

http://admissions.uconn.edu/tuition/index.php

Note that the UConn website touts this motto: UConn is a University where "students can receive a stellar education without graduating with a mountain of debt." The translation on that is they are marketing themselves as a bargain compared to most other American institutions of higher learning, which in fact they are.

The fact remains that the costs for these Quebec students is a very small fraction of what is being paid in the USA. Although there is a different model of education we still cannot ignore the existence of American schools that are geographically closer to Montreal than many parts of Quebec.

By the ways, over the past 6-7 years UConn has recruited many football players from a school called Vanier Prep in Montreal. Most of these players have been black French Canadians of Haitian descent who have been given scholarships to attend a fine American university rather than stay at home and play football in front of the locals.

 

[daydreamer41]

Rumps, since none of us gringos know what is going on, and since you are now a native or honorary Quebecois, could you interview one of these protesters and get back to us gringos and tell us why they are protesting? Please enlighten us. Maybe you can untangle the complexity of the situation if there truly is a reason other than the measly $325 a year they have to pay more?

 

[daydreamer41]

Don't forget them damn college perfessers and them lib'rels, Merlot. We've got one post here where the Fox Noise Ambassador to Merb mentions them lib'rels no less than five times. It's the fault of them lib'rel college perfessers and them lib'rel ideas them lib'rel college perfessers keep feeding these poor impressionable kids.

Rumps, this is the most accurate thing you've ever said on this board, including all of your Red Sox posts. You should learn to spell better or pay attention to the spell checker, though.

 

[gugu]

6,500 even in 2008-2009 is a pipe dream. Check for sources before quoting them, gugu.

The source is OECD, a renowned left wing micro-organization. Due to your limited competence in statistics, I will not take time to go into details with you.

gugu, you fail to mention that we also have the highest secondary school drop out rate in the country.

You fail to stay on topic. Where did you see that the government is proposing to implement tuition on secondary education? Just an occasion for you to continue your Québec bashing.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Rumps, since none of us gringos know what is going on, and since you are now a native or honorary Quebecois, could you interview one of these protesters and get back to us gringos and tell us why they are protesting? Please enlighten us. Maybe you can untangle the complexity of the situation if there truly is a reason other than the measly $325 a year they have to pay more?

Actually, DD, it isn't 325$, it's an increase of 325$ per year for 5 years. And that's just tuition. Fees are going up as well and bursaries are being cut.

What isn't commonly understood in the USA is that in civilized countries, education, like health care, is considered a right rather than a privilege. As is shown here, tuition in most civilized countries is considerably less than it is in Quebec. In fact, it's free in Denmark, Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, Mexico, Norway and the Czech Republic.

For some odd reason, the US considers oil subsidies to corporations who are bilking the public more important than educating its youth.

 

[centaur]

Thumbs up Rump

 

[Techman]

The source is OECD, a renowned left wing micro-organization. Due to your limited competence in statistics, I will not take time to go into details with you.



You fail to stay on topic. Where did you see that the government is proposing to implement tuition on secondary education? Just an occasion for you to continue your Québec bashing.

Considering that we have a very poor rate of secondary graduation, where are all these university students coming from? It's easy to have a hige percentage of high school graduates entering higher education when the number of hs grads is low to begin with.

I love how the cost chart in the wiki you depend so much on lists the proposed costs in 2017 in Quebec against the 2008-2009 costs of other countries. And perhaps you should also take this chart into consideration when looking at education costs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Anyways...I'm done with the discussion here. It's the same old thing with the same old people. gugu who will defend Quebec society to the death no matter what and anyone who disagrees is Quebec bashing, Gentle who attacks and criticizes but offers no solutions or intelligent points for discussion, Merlot who tries his best to see both sides but sees neither clearly and will not for the life of him ever actually pick a side, and Rumples who just loves to discuss things that by his own admission he really knows little about just to stir everyone up.

So I'm off to one of my guitar boards where I'm in the middle of a much better and much more intelligent discussion of this exact same topic with members there from all over the world.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

It's the same old thing with the same old people. gugu who will defend Quebec society to the death no matter what and anyone who disagrees is Quebec bashing, Gentle who attacks and criticizes but offers no solutions or intelligent points for discussion, Merlot who tries his best to see both sides but sees neither clearly and will not for the life of him ever actually pick a side, and Rumples who just loves to discuss things that by his own admission he really knows little about just to stir everyone up.

It's the same old thing with the same old people...yup...and Techman the French guy who hates nothing more than he hates his own heritage. Have you considered Houston?

 

[daydreamer41]

Actually, DD, it isn't 325$, it's an increase of 325$ per year for 5 years. And that's just tuition. Fees are going up as well and bursaries are being cut.

What isn't commonly understood in the USA is that in civilized countries, education, like health care, is considered a right rather than a privilege. As is shown here, tuition in most civilized countries is considerably less than it is in Quebec. In fact, it's free in Denmark, Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, Mexico, Norway and the Czech Republic.

For some odd reason, the US considers oil subsidies to corporations who are bilking the public more important than educating its youth.

So Rumps, I think I am starting to understand the depths of your complexity, which is not very complex at all.

You are saying that if a country does not pay for a citizen's education or healthcare, it is an uncivilized country.

So in other words:

Socialist Countries = Civilized countries

non-Socialist Countries = Uncivilized countries

Except, rumps you forget (like socialists always conveniently do) that the US about half of the US citizens are collecting some type of government check. There's 46.3 million Americans collecting food stamps (thank you Obama). Only half of Americans pay income tax. The poorest of Americans already have free health care, called Medicaid. The poorest of Americans have free tuition, called the Pell Grant.

Besides look what free everything gets those so called civilized countries; most of them you mentioned are in Europe. Europe is on the verge of collapse, starting with Greece, Spain, and Italy.

About the Oil companies, rumps. The Federal government collects more money per gallon than the Oil companies or proprietors of the gas stations. How do you like that for bilking the public, rumps? You probably don't care about the facts, because facts get in the way of anything that supports your Utopian fantasy.

 

[gugu]

Sorry, EB, I had mist your previous post. I am not arguing that public university tuition fees are low in the USA. I was posting only to show they are far from the numbers seen in this thread. I could have along the way others do and show things like that and that, for the year 2012-2013.

Arguing about comparaison is useless when citing a few cases on one side and a few cases on the other.
International comparaisons of this type of figures are very complex to make. That is why it is preferable to use specialized studies making sure we compare apples with apples.

About the overall costs, you need to know that the Universities in Québec had a great party increasing them in Québec during the last decade to go around the tuition freeze. So they are quite high here also, and depending on the tables used, may or may not be included.

One big difference between studying in Québec and in the USA is the the cost of living, especially rental fees much higher in the USA, including in university residences.

 

[daydreamer41]

The source is OECD, a renowned left wing micro-organization. Due to your limited competence in statistics, I will not take time to go into details with you.

My limited competence in statistics? How do you know what my competence in statistics is? How condescending can you be, gugu?

The 6500 US $ in 2008-2009 for the average US tuition figure that your renowned left-wing group came up with is a lie. There's no factual basis for it. I quoted you a sampling of tuitions from US colleges and Universities and there was only 1 University that came under that figure. All others were 50 percent higher or 2 to 5 times as much.

So don't give me your superiority talk and deflect the truth of the matter.

 

[Siocnarf]

...who have been given scholarships to attend a fine American university rather than stay at home and play football in front of the locals.

That's because some US colleges prefer to spend money on football rather then on actual education.

About university professors teaching only a few classes, that's because teaching is only a small part of their job. Mostly their job is to do research and bring in grant money. (Although I think in the US they have many smaller undergrad colleges that are exclusively for teaching.)

 

[gugu]

I love how the cost chart in the wiki you depend so much on lists the proposed costs in 2017 in Quebec against the 2008-2009 costs of other countries. And perhaps you should also take this chart into consideration when looking at education costs.

FYI, the number for Québec in that table is 2 168$, the tuition in 2007. You failed to see the real error here: the number was not converted into US $

 

[Techman]

It's the same old thing with the same old people...yup...and Techman the French guy who hates nothing more than he hates his own heritage. Have you considered Houston?

Really? My heritage has nothing to do with French bigots who think they are the next master race and that all others come second. You want to preserve a language and culture? Then try fucking your brains out and have babies that you can raise and teach it to instead of forcing it on others. But no, that would take work and responsibility.

I happen to believe that all people are equal, rumples, yes - even trolls like you who like to do nothing more than piss people off with their useless posts.

 

[daydreamer41]

That's because some US colleges prefer to spend money on football rather then on actual education.

About university professors teaching only a few classes, that's because teaching is only a small part of their job. Mostly their job is to do research and bring in grant money. (Although I think in the US they have many smaller undergrad colleges that are exclusively for teaching.)

Around 30 years ago, you would be correct. There were 2 types of professors. One who did research and taught a class a semester, and the other who taught 3 or 4 classes per semester and did no research.

Today, most of the professors teach 1 or maybe 2 courses per semester. And most of them are not doing research. The Universities want them to publish books or journals. Publishing gives them notoriety. The students are paying for this frivolousness. The University receive grants for some research but they are not as much as in the past, and the government grants are competitive between the colleges and private firms and individuals.

As far as research paying off, probably the only profitable research is the pharmaceutical research that they may do where they may get private grants from Pharmaceutical companies, or they may develop a patent themselves and get paid for it by the pharma companies.

And yes, sports is a losing proposition for most schools. Only the best schools in athletics get a pay-off.