Finding out a loved one is in the hobby...

[naughtylady]

Rook01>>> What you talk about seems to be one of the biggest issues in this business: the Stigma. That is why so many sex workers live double lives. That is one of the biggest stress fsctors for those working in this business. It is the root cause of sex worker burn out for many women. She keeps everything inside, never letting anything out, never sharing, no outside support for normal work stress. (I say normal because every job has stress and this is stress I am refering to.)

If we could only change the popular view I believe it woud help a lot of people. Not necessary to say that sex work is a good career choice but that it is one of many, with both good and bad issues around it. If people coud see it more neutrally and without moralizing, then it would be a lot less stressful as a job. We woud be able to talk about it with out worrying about being judged, crimilalized, moralized, patronlzed...

But this could never happen as long as it is still illegal, considered immoral, and viewed as always detrimental.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

GG>>> Still waiting for that link. I am very interested. This is valuable information. SPs will be better informed and if they choose to refuse such a service they can have documented proof to support their reasons.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[beautydigger]

What's he called?

If a man who really loves women and many of them is called a womanizer, what is a man that loves men and many of them called? Can Naughtylady answer?

 

[beautydigger]

What a generation of F*****up parents. A father can't communicate to his son the fact that the incidence of STDs among the gay population is out of control.



topics.nytimes.com/.../aids/index.html?query=BARS&field=des&match=exact - 59k -

 

[naughtylady]

What a generation of F*****up parents. A father can't communicate to his son the fact that the incidence of STDs among the gay population is out of control.



topics.nytimes.com/.../aids/index.html?query=BARS&field=des&match=exact - 59k -

It is essential that parents teach their sons and daughters, gay or straight, about protecting themselves from STIs.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[John_Cage]

Seriously, you can't find discussion this good even in university debate clubs. I mean how many more times can abortion be discussed?

To start my post, I would like to state for the record: I do not have daughters nor sons. I also believe SP'ing (yay, I made it a verb) is a respectable job (more on that).

Lots of the SPs' view on this topic is that: "Why do you have a problem with your daughter/son being a SP when you see SPs yourself?"

Answer: Hypocrisy, double standards. But it's far from wrong.

Hypocrisy is the way of men (and women). We go to SPs, so why should we have a problem with our daughters being SPs? The answer is simple: they are Our Daughters !

I mean, let's say you are at a hockey game. You want Your Team to win, right? Consequantly, that means the other team has to lose. So are you being hypocritical by wanting one team to win and another to lose? NO. Because the object is different in these cases. Our standards are always different for different people in our lives. For our home team (hockey), winning is the only acceptable route. We don't CARE about the other team enough to cry about their losing. Similiarly, the SPs we saw aren't related to us, why should we care if they are SPs?

As respectable SPing might or might not be, I don't find it suitable for my daughter. That's normal because hypocrisy is our way of life. Would you treat your gf the same as some random girl on the street? Would you treat your brother the same as some random guy on the street? Our expectation and reaction to people is Based on our relationship with them. There's Good, and then there's Good Enough. Bottomline is, I don't mind gay people at all. Would I want my son to be gay if I have a choice? ...NO ! But would I still love him? Yes, he would still be my son.

One of the above posters mentioned that SPs are no less nice a group of people than others. I agree in general. But what is the basis for comparison? I guess that the average SP would probably be a little bit "easier" than the average girl. The average SP would probably be more "down to earth and mature" than the regular girl. The average SP would probably not be as good at defending you in a court of law than Lawyers. The average SP would probably be better in bed than the above-mentioned lawyers. The point is... "Good" or "nice" is too vague a description.

Edit: I don't think SPing is an "easy" job. I am sure there's lots of emotional complications and it could even be very demanding at times. But then again... what job isn't "difficult" in some ways? When using relative terms, it's important to establish a basis for comparison. Let's say we take 100 girls randomly for a sample population (age 18-40), how many of those would you say can make a living as a SP? How many of those would you say can make it as a lawyer? That's how you compare if a job is indeed "difficult".

 

[metoo4]

JH, for subway drivers, better not be because of remuneration! These peoples make very good money for what they do!

 

[John_Cage]

It's not even necessarily hypocrisy. I have eaten at McDonalds, yet I don't wish for my son to work there. I have purchased "Made in China" products, yet I do not want my son to work in a Chinese factory. I take the metro every day, yet I do not wish my son a career driving the metro trains. A lady picks up the garbage in our office every evening; I don't wish this career on my children.

These are all honest hardworking people doing difficult and sometimes tedious jobs; there is nothing dishonourable about any of these jobs, yet I hope my children aspire to something "better". Yes, my notions of "better" are rather subjective, and not always related to the remuneration.

Were I to have a daughter, I would not want her to strip. This does not preclude me from hiring the services of a stripper and valuing the service she provides.

Yes, exactly. But I was referring to people with a "moral" conflict. They don't want their daughters to be SPs because they see it as a "moral" sin. It takes certain degrees of hypocrisy to do something "immoral" (see a SP) and then demand and enforce strict "morality" on your daughters.

Of course people want their sons to be doctors, they make more money (than most SP, at least). That's normal, no hypocrisy at all.

 

[Ben Dover]

John Cage --- really enjoyed post #84.

Very insightful. Thanks.

It's funny how you can see this hypocracy play out in so many scenarios everyday. I like to drive fast and weave across lanes sometimes, but when someone does it to me, I say "what an asshole driver"... I like McDonalds once in a while, but when someone else eats it I say "that's bad for you"...

I think often times people tend to hone in on and criticize the faults in others that they (subconsciously) recognize as their own faults too.

Do what I say -- not what I do!!

or, in the SP case maybe it should be -- do "who" I say, not "who" I do...

BD

 

[Mod 7]

Thread cleaned (again).

M7

 

[Rexroth]

Seriously, you can't find discussion this good even in university debate clubs.

Couldn't agree more.

I also believe SP'ing (yay, I made it a verb) is a respectable job (more on that).

Lots of the SPs' view on this topic is that: "Why do you have a problem with your daughter/son being a SP when you see SPs yourself?"

Answer: Hypocrisy, double standards. But it's far from wrong.

Similiarly, the SPs we saw aren't related to us, why should we care if they are SPs?

As respectable SPing might or might not be, I don't find it suitable for my daughter.

It's not really hypocrisy. It's what David Hume called limited intensive benevolence; i.e., our moral judgment of people is a function of how close they are to us (Adam Smith also talks about this in the Theory of Moral Sentiments).

This being said, the real problem I have with your argument is that no matter how many times I read it, I still don't see where you substantiate the claim that it is not suitable for your fictional daughter. Indeed, you even say that SPing is a respectable job. Wouldn't you be happy that your daughter had a respectable job?

 

[General Gonad]

Yes, exactly. But I was referring to people with a "moral" conflict. They don't want their daughters to be SPs because they see it as a "moral" sin.

The ultimate hypocrisy is with men who claim that they can fall in love with SPs when deep inside they would never want to marry someone who did this line of work.

Is SPing a tough job? Yes, it often is. More importantly, it isn't a long-term vocation. If you're lucky, you'll make money in a relatively short period and leave the biz with all your marbles intact. Unfortunately, many get trapped in this line of work and have little to show for what they put up with.

GG

P.S. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[CoolAmadeus]

Unfortunately SP'ing carries some kind of stigma in society in general, mostly among people who don't know what it's all about and look at this business through their biased glasses. As I said earlier, the fact a woman works in this business does NOT make her any less respectable. In fact, many of them I respect even more.

My fear about my (non-fictional) daughter potentially going in this direction is not about being less respectable, far from it, but simply the fact she may meet very undesirable clients, clients who will try to force and push her limits. What am I saying? Not she "may", she "will" meet some guys like that. It's not an "if", it's a "when".

Another thing to consider when fathers are looking at their kids' future is exactly that: their future! It's not hypocrisy. Escorting is a short-term solution. There are obviously exceptions (as in everything), but most SPs do that during a few years only, hopefully to pay for school and prepare a future that will last longer...

CA

 

[General Gonad]

Another thing to consider when fathers are looking at their kids' future is exactly that: their future! It's not hypocrisy. Escorting is a short-term solution. There are obviously exceptions (as in everything), but most SPs do that during a few years only, hopefully to pay for school and prepare a future that will last longer...

CA,

The majority of SPs do not do this to advance their academic standing. Even the few that do this, we can say "how noble" but is it really that noble? Thousands of poor students struggle to make it by - is this any less noble? Also, "short-term" solutions often just that..short-term.

GG

 

[CoolAmadeus]

CA,

The majority of SPs do not do this to advance their academic standing. Even the few that do this, we can say "how noble" but is it really that noble? Thousands of poor students struggle to make it by - is this any less noble? Also, "short-term" solutions often just that..short-term.

GG

GG,

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say the job was more or less noble than any other job, just that doing this job does not make a woman any less respectable. I respect a woman for what she is INSIDE, not only for the choices she made, willingly or not. Think about a woman BEFORE she starts SP'ing and the SAME woman AFTER she chose to SP... Is she less of a normal woman or less of a respectable person? No way!

BTW, there are as many reasons for girls/women to start SP'ing as there are SPs! Some are doing it to pay their shool, others to help pay their rent at the end of the month, others to forget about past experiences, some because they hate men, some because they love sex and why not as well get paid for it... etc, etc, etc...

Nothing is black or white in life, it's all shades of grey.

CA

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Nothing is black or white in life, it's all shades of grey.

Seems so simple. Why is this so impossible for some to see?

 

[eastender]

Efficient vs Noble or Moral

Following this thread a little bit and would like to make a few comments.

Working as a bouncer in strip clubs paid my way thru McGill and helped me get a few degrees in the mid 1970's early 1980's.The choice to work as a bouncer had nothing to do with nobility or morality rather it was a question of efficiency.I could make in an evening or two what most students at that time would make in two weeks at typical student jobs.

Other students,both genders before and after me,have choosen the same route - some successfully, some not.Reality is that admission to a CEGEP or University does not come with a guarantee of success regardless whether the student has to work or not to make ends meet.The only commonality is that if you manage to stay away from the booze and/or drugs at school or in the "Sex Industry" your chances of success increases dramatically(don't ask for studies).

The basic problem is that the university degree does not guarantee an "easy money" job. You still have to do all the basic grunt work,deal with employers,co-workers,etc only the pay is somewhat better.The "Sex Industry" is basically about "easy money" with a very flexible schedule,to an extent being your own boss,minimal contact with co-workers etc.

 

[General Gonad]

Again with the authority on knowledge. From experience, and I won't be the only ex or current SP to say it, men can fall in love with SPs and many would marry one (have). When's the last time you had a relationship with a client to know? The ultimate hypocrisy is you think you know what is flawed in other men, when you don't even know what is flawed with yourself.

t76,

Sorry to burst your bubble but the majority of men out there would not marry a lady knowing she was an SP. This is a fact but I know you have proof that it can happen. By the way, I am keenly aware of my flaws. Are you? Why don't you be honest and tell us all what exactly you get from posting your thoughts on the board? I have not heard you reflect on your flaws but you're quick to point out mine. You call me arrogant but I am way more humble than you are and way more forthcoming on my flaws.

As far as what is more "noble", I can only remark that most women do not resort to SPing no matter how dire their situation is. For me, there is an intrinsic beauty in struggling to earn an education. Most SPs make a lot more money than they need to pay for their books, tuition, rent and living expenses. I know many students that are on extremely tight budgets, have huge debts but they manage. It only takes them longer to become debt free.

If you are SPing to advance in your studies or life, good for you. At least it's not wasted on drugs. But to tell me this is the only option or the best option, well that I have a hard time swallowing. It's a self-serving answer that allows you to feel good about yourself.

Finally, the drop-out rate for males is a lot higher than females who have no family support network. In fact, males are dropping out of school at an alarming rate compared to females at all socio-economic levels.


GG

 

[General Gonad]

The "Sex Industry" is basically about "easy money" with a very flexible schedule,to an extent being your own boss,minimal contact with co-workers etc.

Which is why most sex workers have a hard time integrating in the work force and dealing with bosses. "Easy money" is a disease and I have seen it corrupt many in all industries, including the sex industry.

GG

 

[z/m(Ret)]

The ultimate hypocrisy is with men who claim that they can fall in love with SPs when deep inside they would never want to marry someone who did this line of work.

The ones who are able to make statements such as yours are also those who value SP's only for the functional role they're holding in their hobbyist universe and hobbyists as all sex-consuming entities. Did it ever cross your mind that, before anything else, Sp's are women and their clients are men? Men and women, once stripped of all the designations relative to the sex trade, are just that: men and women. From there, anything goes.

Unfortunately SP'ing carries some kind of stigma in society in general (...)

I appreciate the relativism as there are claims out there that the origins of western prostitution began inside matriarchal cultures. In this view, the prostitute is no longer viewed as a physiological release for men but as an achieved example of women's self determination.

I have a hard time swallowing.

So it would be fair to say that this feature is YMMV.

By the way, maybe SPs don't have to struggle financially like students who work at minimum wages but they have to deal with a stressful occupation that can be quite demanding both physically and psychologically.

Absolutely. And let's face it, really, the money's good but not as good as many might assume.