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hungry101

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Oct 29, 2007
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I wonder, overall, if the recent trends in the US toward a more liberal attitude toward sexuality and sexual identity (the LGBQ movements, gay marriage, etc) combined with some of the other loosening of moral pieties around personal behavior--at least in the blue states--might have an effect on the "hobby."

I agree with you. Allowing an adult woman to chose by her own free will to enter the sex trade ought to be her right. It is ironic that feminists want to portray all sex workers as exploited woman that are forced into the sex trade. Logically, they ought to be fighting for the woman's right to enter the sex trade just like they are always fighting for the woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Why do you think the blue states would be interested in loosening up prostitution laws? Again, another irony. Politcal groups that identfy as "liberal" seem to be always out trying to create new laws to force people to live a certain way....Their way in fact. It is ironic but there is very little that is truely liberal about a liberal these days. For example, there is no such thing as freedom of speach on the college campuses anymore. Oh, and liberals, at the moment, do not like hetrosexual males that buy sex. They would say something such as "You want to buy sex? Why don't you dress up like Bruce Jenner instead?" No, unless you are an apologetic wimp that is concerned with everyones feelings.... You better be an Alana Alda/ Phil Donahue welcome mat type because otherwise, you are tainted by white male privledge. And you are evil.
 

ValWangSmiles

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Feb 26, 2015
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I know this is a bit off topic, but this article from the Montreal Tourism Board about planning a bachelor party had me in stitches. As if anyone holds their bachelor party in Montreal to do any of this crap they have listed!

http://www.tourisme-montreal.org/blog/your-montreal-bachelor-party-plan-of-attack/

Now hold on, hold on. =) Bily Kun as a bar I can vouch for - it's a French Quebecois interpretation of what they think a Czech bar is and there were definitely a lot of GND pretty locals there on a Friday night. Sophie of Elite more than once recommended The Keg Steakhouse in Vieux Port. Goodness, I can imagine Sophie having a 12 oz steak at The Keg all to herself and not gain an oz of fat on her.

Stay safe guys.
 

EagerBeaver

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Something else, I hope you and the other locals have the fortitude to heckle the people who show up for the anti-prostitution rally Saturday at Phillips Square. I hope you locals go, Stella goes, appropriate heckling is done, and you report back on your activities next week. I am a Yankees fan and can heckle with the best but I will not be in Montreal until July.
 

Koenig

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Valid argument but its hard to define whats a sport not to derail the thread. Like do you consider a jockey an athlete? Are professional dart players or pool players sports or athletes? I would say racing is a sport, much as I don't really consider it in the logical sense, just not the most athletic requiring one, more a reflex and concentration based one.

That, its a terrible slogan no idea what the sport tie in is about.

Actually I can assure you that racing pilots have to be fit and in good shape, strong arm, leg and neck muscles are important as well as good reflexes and concentration.

Note that this comes back every single year, and it's normal. We'll also get the usual price gouging in the next couple of weeks.
 

talkinghead

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Aug 15, 2007
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Politcal groups that identfy as "liberal" seem to be always out trying to create new laws to force people to live a certain way....Their way in fact.

Obviously you're angry at liberal politics in the US and I don't see much point in dragging this out, but I'm baffled by what laws have been created under Obama that "force people to live a certain way." Do you mean laws that grant equality (of marriage, for example) to non-heterosexuals? Do you mean the expansion of health care? I just can't think of any laws that are more restrictive around personal freedoms, but maybe I'm forgetting some things.
 

EagerBeaver

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Remember the federal prosecutors had a chance to charge Spitzer and Ashley Dupree with Mann Act violations and they passed. He was using his own money is why. He wasn't cheating the Feds out of taxes like Emperor's Club was. Spitzer gave them his money and they didn't report it so it was their fucking problem.
 

smuler

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Mar 18, 2005
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Actually I can assure you that racing pilots have to be fit and in good shape, strong arm, leg and neck muscles are important as well as good reflexes and concentration

100% true Racing drivers have one of the highest scores in cardiovascular endurance, low body fat, quick reflex tests

It's not like they're sitting on the couch pimpin girls..they are working hard and earning their daily wage

Best Regards
Smuler
 

CaptRenault

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Jun 29, 2003
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I will defer to the great American journalist H.L. Mencken to provide a response to these puritanical and fanatical Canadian feminists and their allies. :rolleyes:

The Lady of Joy*

Even prostitution, in the long run, may become a more or less respectable profession, as it was in the great days of the Greeks. That quality will surely attach to it if ever it grows quite unnecessary; whatever is unnecessary is always respectable, for example, religion, fashionable clothing, and a knowledge of Latin grammar. The prostitute is disesteemed today, not because her trade involves anything intrinsically degrading or even disagreeable, but because she is currently assumed to have been driven into it by dire necessity, against her dignity and inclination. That this assumption is usually unsound is no objection to it; nearly all the thinking of the world, particularly in the field of morals, is based upon unsound assumption, e.g., that God observes the fall of a sparrow and is shocked by the fall of a Sunday-school superintendent. The truth is that prostitution is one of the most attractive of the occupations practically open to the sort of women who engage in it, and that the prostitute commonly likes her work, and would not exchange places with a shop-girl or a waitress for anything in the world. The notion to the contrary is propagated by unsuccessful prostitutes who fall into the hands of professional reformers, and who assent to the imbecile theories of the latter in order to cultivate their good will, just as convicts in prison, questioned by tee-totalers, always ascribe their rascality to alcohol. No prostitute of anything resembling normal intelligence is under the slightest duress; she is perfectly free to abandon her trade and go into a shop or factory or into domestic service whenever the impulse strikes her; all the prevailing gabble about white slave jails and kidnappers comes from pious rogues who make a living by feeding such nonsense to the credulous. So long as the average prostitute is able to make a good living, she is quite content with her lot, and disposed to contrast it egotistically with the slavery of her virtuous sisters. If she complains of it, then you may be sure that her success is below her expectations. A starving lawyer always sees injustice, in the courts. A bad physician is a bitter critic of Ehrlich and Pasteur. And when a suburban clergyman is forced out of his cure by a vestry-room revolution he almost invariably concludes that the sinfulness of man is incurable, and sometimes he even begins to doubt some of the typographical errors in Holy Writ.

The high value set upon virginity by men, whose esteem of it is based upon a mixture of vanity and voluptuousness, causes many women to guard it in their own persons with a jealousy far beyond their private inclinations and interests. It is their theory that the loss of it would materially impair their chances of marriage. This theory is not supported by the facts. The truth is that the woman who sacrifices her chastity, everything else being equal, stands a much better chance of making a creditable marriage than the woman who remains chaste. This is especially true of women of the lower economic classes. At once they come into contact, hitherto socially difficult and sometimes almost impossible, with men of higher classes, and begin to take on, with the curious facility of their sex, the refinements and tastes and points of view of those classes. The mistress thus gathers charm, and what has begun as a sordid sale of amiability not uncommonly ends with formal marriage. The number of such marriages is enormously greater than appears superficially, for both parties obviously make every effort to conceal the facts. Within the circle of my necessarily limited personal acquaintance I know of scores of men, some of them of wealth and position, who have made such marriages, and who do not seem to regret it. It is an old observation, indeed, that a woman who has previously disposed of her virtue makes a good wife. The common theory is that this is because she is grateful to her husband for rescuing her from social outlawry; the truth is that she makes a good wife because she is a shrewd woman, and has specialized professionally in masculine weakness, and is thus extra-competent at the traditional business of her sex. Such a woman often shows a truly magnificent sagacity. It is very difficult to deceive her logically, and it is impossible to disarm her emotionally. Her revolt against the pruderies and sentimentalities of the world was evidence, to begin with, of her intellectual enterprise and courage, and her success as a rebel is proof of her extraordinary pertinacity, resourcefulness and acumen.

Even the most lowly prostitute is better off, in all worldly ways, than the virtuous woman of her own station in life. She has less work to do, it is less monotonous and dispiriting, she meets a far greater variety of men, and they are of classes distinctly beyond her own. Nor is her occupation hazardous and her ultimate fate tragic. A dozen or more years ago I observed a somewhat amusing proof of this last. At that time certain sentimental busybodies of the American city in which I lived undertook an elaborate inquiry into prostitution therein, and some of them came to me in advance, as a practical journalist, for advice as to how to proceed. I found that all of them shared the common superstition that the professional life of the average prostitute is only five years long, and that she invariably ends in the gutter. They were enormously amazed when they unearthed the truth. This truth was to the effect that the average prostitute of that town ended her career, not in the morgue but at the altar of God, and that those who remained unmarried often continued in practice for ten, fifteen and even twenty years, and then retired on competences. It was established, indeed, that fully eighty per cent married, and that they almost always got husbands who would have been far beyond their reach had they remained virtuous. For one who married a cabman or petty pugilist there were a dozen who married respectable mechanics, policemen, small shopkeepers and minor officials, and at least two or three who married well-to-do tradesmen and professional men. Among the thousands whose careers were studied there was actually one who ended as the wife of the town's richest banker—that is, one who bagged the best catch in the whole community. This woman had begun as a domestic servant, and abandoned that harsh and dreary life to enter a brothel. Her experiences there polished and civilized her, and in her old age she was a grande dame of great dignity. Much of the sympathy wasted upon women of the ancient profession is grounded upon an error as to their own attitude toward it. An educated woman, hearing that a frail sister in a public stew is expected to be amiable to all sorts of bounders, thinks of how she would shrink from such contacts, and so concludes that the actual prostitute suffers acutely. What she overlooks is that these men, however gross and repulsive they may appear to her, are measurably superior to men of the prostitute's own class—say her father and brothers—and that communion with them, far from being disgusting, is often rather romantic. I well remember observing, during my collaboration with the vice-crusaders aforesaid, the delight of a lady of joy who had attracted the notice of a police lieutenant; she was intensely pleased by the idea of having a client of such haughty manners, such brilliant dress, and what seemed to her to be so dignified a profession. It is always forgotten that this weakness is not confined to prostitutes, but run through the whole female sex. The woman who could not imagine an illicit affair with a wealthy soap manufacturer or even with a lawyer finds it quite easy to imagine herself succumbing to an ambassador or a duke. There are very few exceptions to this rule. In the most reserved of modern societies the women who represent their highest flower are notoriously complaisant to royalty. And royal women, to complete the circuit, not infrequently yield to actors and musicians, i.e., to men radiating a glamour not encountered even in princes.



*In Defense of Women, by H.L. Mencken New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1920, 1922
 

EagerBeaver

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talkinghead

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Talkinghead,

Be careful to stay on the correct side of that tank. The federal government is like a tank and state governments are like guys with guns.

A big deal of the Obama Administration was its announcement that it would no longer actively defend the anti-gay marriage federal law known as the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) while it was being challenged. Previously the federal government always actively defended federal laws, even when it was passed during a previous administration and the current administration disagreed with it.

Most of us are of a mindset to support gay marriage and even accept chicks with dicks. And it was fun, too. We realize that moralistic people fume when they see gay marriage announcements in the paper and do things like re-read The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization, lead Sunday School discussions of the portion of the Bible discussing Sodom and Gomorrah, and even do things like having the Ten Commandments printed on a large sign and displayed in the yard. Fun to be behind the tank in this situation.

But what if you are on the wrong side of the tank and it is coming at you? The Democrats did not have an epiphany and discover that gays, lesbians and transgendered persons deserve equal rights. A relatively large portion of Hollywood television and movie writers and actors are homosexual, and they placed a tremendous number of gay-positive characters in the media. This caused a larger percentage of viewers, particularly young viewers, to support gay rights. The numbers were there, so the Democrats moved way left on this issue and it has paid off.

There is no such positive portrayal of sex workers in the media. In fact, the abolitionists and their sex trafficking mythology gets most of the press. So a federal administration might believe it can politically benefit by actively prosecuting sex workers and their customers.

So if the federal government moves aggressively against erotic advertisement and review boards in spite of the First Amendment, and uses the Mann Act to prosecute traveling escorts and guys who travel across state lines around the time they purchase sex, the tank won't seem so good.

The advantage of keeping prosecution at the state and local level, is that a customer can choose his locations. Las Vegas is very friendly to escorts and johns, as long as it is kept off the streets. Phoenix is very hostile to sex work. A traveller can arrange his affairs to be in Las Vegas instead of Phoenix pretty easily, and can read advertisements and reviews for Las Vegas escorts. But if the federal government is hostile, that critical difference goes away.

First, Patron, I appreciate your civil tone. And I don't think we disagree here, at least about the laws around sexual identity, sex work, and the first amendment. I can find little compelling reason for the federal government to regulate what people do with their bodies, as long as it's consensual and doesn't cause harm to others.

But the line between state and federal power has always been enormously complicated to adjudicate, legislate, and even identify. So in your example, it might indeed make sense for state and local governments to establish both law and custom around many forms of pleasure (e.g., legalization of sex work and/or prostitution). But in other areas it's not a good idea; racial segregation is an obvious example, but even the notion of letting states decide about gay marriage was leading to an increasing number of serious headaches.

I don't mean to rely on 6th grade civics, but that "tank" that you refer to needs to be kept in check by a responsible judiciary as well as state governments and "the fourth estate" (including this board!). But we fall into a trap if we see "government" as the problem. I tend to agree with Thoreau when he defended the notion that "that government is best which governs least," and yet we still need some kind of sane, central government to ensure those old values of equality and liberty.

As for the specifically political content, you're right that Democrats likely saw an opening and promoted gay rights; part of that may be Hollywood, but some of it is certainly grass-roots cultural change among the under 40-crowd, as well as many other influences. (Obviously: chicken and egg.) My original comment was trying to think of some ways in which the Obama administration has curtailed personal freedoms; maybe there are some, but I can't think of any. So: more protections and rights for those who have been traditionally disenfranchised, and more freedoms (legalization of pot in some states, despite the federal law) in others. I know that many white men feel that their lives are being diminished, but I can't think of any legislation that has singled out white men. Culture changes, and the authority that white men had has waned, but that seems to be largely because others (non-white, non-heterosexual, non-Christian, non-male) are being given more equal standing. As a white man, I sometimes get nostalgic for a time when I had more authority ... but at the same time I don't want to be nostalgic for a past that was discriminatory. With all that in mind, I really do wonder whether "the abolitionists and their sex trafficking mythology" will win out; I'd be willing to bet that sex work will become more accepted over the next decade. The enemy, to me, is not a liberal ideology; it's religious zealotry. Religious groups are the ones trying to challenge traditional constitutional (and thus federal) separations between church and state; they're the ones we need to watch out for.
 

Mistral

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Jan 8, 2006
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There needs to be a counter-campaign

Educating the public, politicians and law enforcement that the vast majority of sex work involves a voluntary, healthy and positive transaction between consenting adults, and that the laws should be changed. Focus on the real issue of exploitation, but leave unexploited consenting adults alone.

Who will lead this campaign, and where do I send my financial contribution to support it ?
 

EagerBeaver

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Mistral,

This is what I have been saying- there is no effective opposition. The people who would lead it are posting anonymously under fake handles on escort review and message boards. Other possible leaders would be attorneys who are defending prostitutes or other persons charged with violation of these laws, although successful lobbying by them runs counter to their own business interests. Perhaps law school civil clinics - basically law students doing pro bono legal work under the watchful eyes of their professors and practicing attorneys meeting a pro bono hours requirement-could assist some of the existing advocacy groups in organizing and staging a public debate.
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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Look behind you.
Read a lot of the comments here and all have good points but in the end I expect that low level pimps who have underaged girls and/or sell drugs would be the ones getting busted, leaving a high majority left unscathed.
 

chowzilla

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Aug 10, 2011
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Child exploitation?

Like is that still happening in mtl?

Shouldn't be mixed with our hobby

That's how they are trying to get the public eye.
By making people think we are all pedophiles
 

CLOUD 500

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Reverdy,

Very well written and makes sense. However this ultra conservatives and religious zealots many who are in powerful positions they just want to shut down all forms of prostitution. They do not care if legalizing it will be safer for both the sex workers and clients and it will make it much easier to flush out pimps and under age prostitutes. They want any and all forms of prostitution to end so they really do not care how they do it so long as it is gone. This so called Peter McKay you mentioned is a hard core conservative. They do not care about anything except everyone follows traditional family values and societal norms. No amount of logical reasoning will change their mind.
 

Loblaw

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Wait till then 375th. anniversary of Montreal next summer, I think there will be a crack down on every visible adult related establishment. It will take years before things return to what it was.
 

EagerBeaver

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Somebody should be calling Pivotal Law Society or one of the other advocacy groups and imploring them to challenge these anti-prostitution groups and protesters to a public debate. Perhaps it can be staged by McGill and the local media can be invited to cover the event.
 
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