Habs off season thread: free agents, trades ...etc
- Thread starter gohabsgo
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No coach would move players like Vinnie Lecavalier (52 goals, 56 assists in 2006/2007), Chris Drury (37 goals, 32 assists), Zach Parise (31/31) and many more with similar goals/assists ratios, from center to winger on account of their "non-playmaker" stats. As for Higgins alleged "lack of lateral movement", I'd appreciate it if you would describe what "lateral movement" on skates would be if other than what goalies do to move from one post to another.eastender said:
How does the above statement discredit my point?eastender said:
Not every great player wins the cup but every team winning the cup has at least one great player in the lineup. You conveniently fail to mention that Howe won 4 cups with Detroit. Detroit, btw, were consistently contenders until the early 60's, when Howe turned 40. Most importantly, you don't say that the team who used to beat Detroit during the Howe/Delvecchio years was Montreal. Remember who used to be the top players for Le Canadien back in those years? Certainly not 2nd line centers converted into left wings.
Ludicrous! It's like saying Wayne Gretzky was not such a great player after all because Edmonton won a cup without him.eastender said:
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Ziggy Montana said:
Sorry but in 86 Roy was unproven like is Halak or Price are. Price is already compared to Roy.
And sorry again but I was mistaken, I thought you wrote the post #93 about goalies/defense not able to win the cup but it was Doc so basicly the question was for him. I don't know what was in our water me thinking that you wrote post #93 and sombody else thinking that Doc wrote post #91... S**t, it wasn't water it was gin...
More of the Same
Good coaching is about making appropriate choices. Chicago tried Phil Esposito as a playmaking center with Chico Maki and Bobby Hull - did not work as hoped.Traded to Boston he was paired with forwards Cashman and Hodge backed by Bobby Orr who would get him the puck in the slot.Who do the Canadiens have that would get Higgins the puck if he played center? Lecavalier,Drury,Parise all play on teams that have players that can get them the puck. Out of college Chris Drury was a left winger with Colorado and Calgary.
Lateral movement is the ability of a player to move laterally(left or right) without losing much speed. Vital to stick handling, creating open ice, playing responsible defence getting into position all over the ice,avoiding checks,etc. Saku Koivu until his first knee injury had great lateral movement - remember he was near the top in scoring. Watch Sidney Crosby and how he moves from side to side without losing any significant speed.Remember Wayne Gretzky who did not have ultimate speed but could dangle from side to side.Watch Joe Thornton and how he has to play on the periphery to be effective because he does not have the same lateral speed as Crosby.Eric Lindros did not have much lateral movement - coupled with his inability to learn to play with his head-up he used to get nailed regularly.
Gordie Howe was born in 1928 so he would have been between 27 and 42 in the 1956 - 71 era when he played with Delvecchio.Top players for the Canadiens at that time or during the five year run between 1956 and 1960 would include Maurice Richard who was converted from left wing to right wing early in his career to take advantage of his shot and ability to button-hook to the front of the net from the right wing corner.This was done by a forward looking coach while the Canadiens were not a play-off team.Later editions of the Canadiens had other players listed previously who played out of position or were switched. The Leafs had Kelly and others listed previously. The Hawks had Doug Mohns who had started as an All-Star defenceman with Boston but became a winger on Stan Mikita's line, Kenny Wharram who was a center converted to left wing.
With Jacques Lemaire as a linemate Guy Lafleur had the luxury to do what he did best without worrying about defence.Lafleur knew the puck would get to him. Remember the tying goal against Boston in the seventh game in 1979.
Ziggy Montana said:No coach would move players like Vinnie Lecavalier (52 goals, 56 assists in 2006/2007), Chris Drury (37 goals, 32 assists), Zach Parise (31/31) and many more with similar goals/assists ratios, from center to winger on account of their "non-playmaker" stats. As for Higgins alleged "lack of lateral movement", I'd appreciate it if you would describe what "lateral movement" on skates would be if other than what goalies do to move from one post to another.
How does the above statement discredit my point?
Not every great player wins the cup but every team winning the cup has at least one great player in the lineup. You conveniently fail to mention that Howe won 4 cups with Detroit. Detroit, btw, were consistently contenders until the early 60's, when Howe turned 40. Most importantly, you don't say that the team who used to beat Detroit during the Howe/Delvecchio years was Montreal. Remember who used to be the top players for Le Canadien back in those years? Certainly not 2nd line centers converted into left wings.
Ludicrous! It's like saying Wayne Gretzky was not such a great player after all because Edmonton won a cup without him.
Good coaching is about making appropriate choices. Chicago tried Phil Esposito as a playmaking center with Chico Maki and Bobby Hull - did not work as hoped.Traded to Boston he was paired with forwards Cashman and Hodge backed by Bobby Orr who would get him the puck in the slot.Who do the Canadiens have that would get Higgins the puck if he played center? Lecavalier,Drury,Parise all play on teams that have players that can get them the puck. Out of college Chris Drury was a left winger with Colorado and Calgary.
Lateral movement is the ability of a player to move laterally(left or right) without losing much speed. Vital to stick handling, creating open ice, playing responsible defence getting into position all over the ice,avoiding checks,etc. Saku Koivu until his first knee injury had great lateral movement - remember he was near the top in scoring. Watch Sidney Crosby and how he moves from side to side without losing any significant speed.Remember Wayne Gretzky who did not have ultimate speed but could dangle from side to side.Watch Joe Thornton and how he has to play on the periphery to be effective because he does not have the same lateral speed as Crosby.Eric Lindros did not have much lateral movement - coupled with his inability to learn to play with his head-up he used to get nailed regularly.
Gordie Howe was born in 1928 so he would have been between 27 and 42 in the 1956 - 71 era when he played with Delvecchio.Top players for the Canadiens at that time or during the five year run between 1956 and 1960 would include Maurice Richard who was converted from left wing to right wing early in his career to take advantage of his shot and ability to button-hook to the front of the net from the right wing corner.This was done by a forward looking coach while the Canadiens were not a play-off team.Later editions of the Canadiens had other players listed previously who played out of position or were switched. The Leafs had Kelly and others listed previously. The Hawks had Doug Mohns who had started as an All-Star defenceman with Boston but became a winger on Stan Mikita's line, Kenny Wharram who was a center converted to left wing.
With Jacques Lemaire as a linemate Guy Lafleur had the luxury to do what he did best without worrying about defence.Lafleur knew the puck would get to him. Remember the tying goal against Boston in the seventh game in 1979.
I'll let you guys (ZM and eastender) argue until the cows come home... but as I was saying in my post earlier in this thread, the Habs don't have a natural LW on their top line right now and that's their biggest immediate need. Higgins' natural position is center and that's where he belongs. I believe Gainey still has at least one major deal in him before the regular starts. Get rid of Ryder and hopefully Kovalev and his monstrous salary and bring a top line LW (Naslund or Tanguay) to Montreal.
Off topic, as usual.
If you feel that the Habs stand a chance to win the cup by playing Higgins wherever you see fit or by pairing Halak with Youppi, that's fine by me.
The whole point of the discussion, before you jumped in like a wild dog in a bowling alley, was the Habs' chances to make the playoffs this coming season. I said the chances are slim and explained why. In the process, I questioned management's policy to stockpile on defensemen while the roster blatantly lacks of offensive talent (especially on the left wing).eastender said:
If you feel that the Habs stand a chance to win the cup by playing Higgins wherever you see fit or by pairing Halak with Youppi, that's fine by me.
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And your point is? No one in 86 expected Montreal to win the cup: they simply didn't have the team. They did anyway against all odds and thanks to Roy.Gorsky said:
If Halak turns out to be another Roy, great! Until that happens, I don't see any reason to believe that Montreal will make the playoffs, let alone going far in the playoffs.
Ziggy Montana said:Right, I'm sure Nonis and Sutter just can't wait to deal their best players for Montreal's puck hogs and underachievers.
Aw, show some mercy to Pablo, Zig. He lives for his dreams. Don't make the poor guy face reality: he can't handle the truth (apologies to Jack Nicholson).
Ziggy Montana said:Right, I'm sure Nonis and Sutter just can't wait to deal their best players for Montreal's puck hogs and underachievers.
How about a package of Murray, Gorges, Ryder & Kovalev for Vinnie Lecavalier?
(I'm kidding, by the way.....but some of these dreamers really do think this would be a fair trade for the Lightning & that most of the GM's in this league other than Mtl's are a bunch of idiots.)
Reminds me of this caller who suggested Montreal should trade Richard Sevigny for... Wayne Gretzky! I don't remember who was the radio show host back then but he remained silent for a few seconds and hung up the phone in despair.Doc Holliday said:How about a package of Murray, Gorges, Ryder & Kovalev for Vinnie Lecavalier?
(I'm kidding, by the way.....but some of these dreamers really do think this would be a fair trade for the Lightning & that most of the GM's in this league other than Mtl's are a bunch of idiots.)
Ziggy Montana said:
My point is that who knows what can happen. Roy was a normal player (Juniors stats 6.26, 4.44, 5.55 not something that I'll call a star player) until that serie. I am not saying that will happen this time but still a goalie can win a cup even if there is no offense. Most of the time defensive teams win the cup (when there is an almost equal talent status). It seems that it is much more easier to wait for the mistake to score than trying to go thru the D wall head first... Also, chemistry is more valuable than talent. Ok for sure if you put the worst player of the NHL in a team even if they have big chemistry they won't win but the job of the GM and coach is to build a team which has a balance between talent and chemistry. When players play together for a common goal, it is far more easy to win. In both years (86 and 93), the Habs were less talented (not outclassed) than the other team but because they had a good chemistry they were able to perform. So, it is an other who knows what can happen this season but again nothing is granted
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Message for joelcairo
joelcairo,
You can address me directly. Don't worry. I'm not going to hurt wimps and defeatists like you. I've already put away my hockey stick years ago.
joelcairo said:
joelcairo,
You can address me directly. Don't worry. I'm not going to hurt wimps and defeatists like you. I've already put away my hockey stick years ago.
picasso said:joelcairo,
You can address me directly. Don't worry. I'm not going to hurt wimps and defeatists like you. I've already put away my hockey stick years ago.
Gee thanks Pablo. Since you've been kind enough to allow me to address you directly, I'll use this rare privilege to point out that A) the biggest wimps are the sad losers who take refuge in their dreams because they can't face reality, and B) I'm not a defeatist because as I've stated multiple times in the past, I am NOT a Habs fan. By the way, my hockey stick hasn't been put away yet, but don't worry: I don't pick on those weaker than me.
As always, Pablo: pleasant dreams.
Cheerfully yours,
Joel
Cosmo said:
Euh what do you mean???
Here is the list of players that won the Calder trophy in those years and Roy isn't there
1989 Brian Leetch New York Rangers
1988 Joe Nieuwendyk Calgary Flames
1987 Luc Robitaille Los Angeles Kings
1986 Gary Suter Calgary Flames
1985 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh Penguins
1984 Tom Barrasso Buffalo Sabres
1983 Steve Larmer Chicago Black Hawks
1982 Dale Hawerchuk Winnipeg Jets
If you are talking about Calder Cup in the AHL:
1986-87 Rochester Americans 4-3 Sherbrooke Canadiens
1985-86 Adirondack Red Wings 4-2 Hershey Bears
1984-85 Sherbrooke Canadiens 4-2 Baltimore Skipjacks
I don't think that 1 game in the AHL makes a player a superstar or even a proven player specially with the avg of 4 Goals against. Also his team didn't make the playoffs while he played 44 games and got an avg of 5.55
Patrick Roy
Patrick Roy played 13 of the 17 play-off games leading an average Sherbrooke Canadiens to the AHL Calder Cup.
He played for an expansion LHJMQ team in Granby the three seasons he was there often facing 60-70 shots a night but managed to lead them to the play-offs the second season - his draft year. The third season he was hurt mid-season and the team traded its better players including Stephane Richer for prospects.
Gorsky said:
Patrick Roy played 13 of the 17 play-off games leading an average Sherbrooke Canadiens to the AHL Calder Cup.
He played for an expansion LHJMQ team in Granby the three seasons he was there often facing 60-70 shots a night but managed to lead them to the play-offs the second season - his draft year. The third season he was hurt mid-season and the team traded its better players including Stephane Richer for prospects.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=217288&hubname=nhl
Sharks sign Marleau to $12.6M extension
Way too much for a second line center, I'm glad Bob didn't trade for this guy and Marleau wasn't good in the playoffs.
There are still some decent UFA's left like Forsberg and Selanne - come on Bob make it happen!
Sharks sign Marleau to $12.6M extension
Way too much for a second line center, I'm glad Bob didn't trade for this guy and Marleau wasn't good in the playoffs.
There are still some decent UFA's left like Forsberg and Selanne - come on Bob make it happen!
