Habs off season thread: free agents, trades ...etc

[z/m(Ret)]

Ziggy, say what you want about Koivu being over-rated and overpaid but at the least the guy gives everything he has. If other players on the team had done the same last year, cough...Kovalev, Samsonov...cough, the Habs might have made a run in the playoffs. There seems to be little pride in wearing the sweater anymore and players are more interested in how much money they can get than actually winning anything. But I guess that's the same in any sport today.

Techman

Techman, I'm not disputing that Koivu's work ethic is exemplary. He is also not completely deprived of talent though he doesn't have enough to make his wingers better (the way Joe Sakic made Milan Hejduk a better player or a certain no. #66 in Pittsburgh turned AHL calibre Rob Brown into a 50 goals scorer, etc...).

On the other hand, a right winger like Teemu Selanne can make Koivu a better player (i.e. Turin Olympics).

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Ziggy, i agree 200% with your analysis of this year's Habs. Have you ever considered writing for either the Gazette or Le Journal de Montreal? I'm serious about this. Your insight is uncanny!

lol... Ziggy Montana hobbyist and sports columnist...

For those who keep repeating the line that they have one of the best goaltender tandems in Halek/Huet (i know, i don't get it!) well, can they score goals also? The problem with this sorry ass of a team isn't goaltending or defense, it's the INABILITY TO SCORE GOALS !!!

Exactly and this time I wouldn't blame their shortcomings on the alleged Habs tight-checking system. All four lines forechecked with two men up every game last year with Markov, Souray and Streit rushing in from time to time. The problem is lack of scoring touch.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Koivu's main problem is that he's a #2 centre, given #1 status and duties here in Montreal, facing opposing teams' #1 defensive lines...It's not his fault Habs haven't found a #1 to relieve him of his duties!! If Habs find a real #1 centre, Koivu will go from bottom 5 #1 centre in the NHL to top 5 #2 centre in the NHL.

That center could have been Daniel Brière.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Techman, I'm not disputing that Koivu's work ethic is exemplary. He is also not completely deprived of talent though he doesn't have enough to make his wingers better (the way Joe Sakic made Milan Hejduk a better player or a certain no. #66 in Pittsburgh turned AHL calibre Rob Brown into a 50 goals scorer, etc...).

I also agree with Techman that Koivu's work ethic is exemplary. However, you can probably say the same thing about a lot of other players. Heck, even Tie Domi had a very good work ethic.

But you're correct to note that Koivu doesn't have the talent required to make his wingers better than they are. A player like Koivu appears better than he is depending on the quality of his wingers & not the other way around. For one thing, i've never seen him as a first-line centerman. Koivu, in my opinion, was never any better than a 2nd-line centerman. But he's the incumbent captain & gets paid the big bucks, so he has to be on the first line. But in fact, they don't really have anyone else to fill his shoes as the team's first-line centerman.

Your correct in stating that Mario Lemieux turned AHL-calibre winger Rob Brown into a decent scorer when he played with him. But even better than that was the case of Warren Young, a 28-year old rookie who managed to score 40 goals while patroling Lemieux's wing, and even managed to obtain a contract from the Detroit Red Wings a couple of years later when Mario ran out of tricks for Young. Heck, even Dave Semenko looked like a decent player playing alongside Wayne Gretzky in Edmonton. Same goes for Tiger Williams when he played on the same line with Darryl Sittler & Lanny McDonald back in the mid-70's.

The irony in all of this is that once he retires, Koivu is likely headed to the Hall-of-Fame. But it won't be for his statistics.

 

[Cosmo]

Doc,

In post #91 you mentioned Prezoghin as up an coming prospect.He no longer plays for the Habs.

cosmo

 

[Gorsky]

Koivu's main problem is that he's a #2 centre, given #1 status and duties here in Montreal, facing opposing teams' #1 defensive lines...It's not his fault Habs haven't found a #1 to relieve him of his duties!! If Habs find a real #1 centre, Koivu will go from bottom 5 #1 centre in the NHL to top 5 #2 centre in the NHL.

I agree with this statement. Koivu is a #2 center but because he is giving himself and also because of the injuries/illness he became one of the favorite in Mtl. Les Canadiens would have trouble to move from #1 center to #2 center. But, I hope that will happen next year since there is a lot of good UFA... Some teams will have so much trouble to pay all those superstars.


Ziggy, could you tell me who was the superstars (except Roy) in Mtl when they got the cup in 86 and 93

93 Roster: Guy Carbonneau (Capitaine), Patrick Roy, André Racicot, Rob Ramage, Kirk Muller, Mike Keane, Kevin Haller, Paul DiPietro, John LeClair, Denis Savard, Benoît Brunet, Brian Bellows, Lyle Odelein, Vincent Damphousse, Gary Leeman, Mathieu Schneider, Eric Desjardins, Jesse Bélanger, Ed Ronan, Mario Roberge, Donald Dufresne, Todd Ewen, Sean Hill, Patrice Brisebois, Gilbert Dionne, Stephan Lebeau, Jean-Jacques Daigneault.

A few of those guys became good after leaving Mtl (Desjardins, LeClair,Schneider) but the others... Damphousse, I beleive he is equal to Koivu. That demonstrate how teamplay is important to win the cup.

86 Roster: Bob Gainey (Capitaine), Doug Soetaert, Patrick Roy, Steve Penney, Rick Green, David Maley, Ryan Walter, Mario Tremblay, Bobby Smith, Craig Ludwig, Tom Kurvers, Larry Robinson, Kjell Dahlin, Guy Carbonneau, Randy Bucyk, Chris Chelios, Petr Svoboda, Mats Naslund, Lucien DeBlois, Steve Rooney, Gaston Gingras, Chris Nilan, John Kordic, Claude Lemieux, Mike McPhee, Mike Lalor, Brian Skrudland, Stéphane Richer, Serge Boisvert.

This one has more talent but still it is not an overbosted team. Actually Roy saved the team in the playoffs and because of that they won the cup. Still most of those players performed better outside of Mtl...

 

[Heavy D]

"Depth" where there's barely anything to show on the surface is hardly depth at all. The team you are depicting - Chipchura, Grabovski Latendresse, Kostitsyn and the aging Smolinski is nothing to put Montreal in a position to make the playoffs this coming season. Overpaid and overrated Koivu and underachiever Kovalev will still be getting enough ice time to cause damage to the team.

Hi Ziggy,

I was only responding to your comment earlier that the roster was an abberation because there were 12 defensemen. I never made any comments regarding what I felt the quality of those defensemen were. For the record, I think the defense corps is somewhat underrated, as there are no "sexy" picks that, save perhaps Markov, but is not one I would count on winning a cup with.

Similarly, I was responding to your comments that you indicated the Habs roster was an abberation because they only had 3 left wingers, per your post, they being Murray, Kostitsyn and Begin. I merely mentioned other options the Habs had at left wing, including Higgins, Smolinski, Grabovski or Chipchura (thus sliding Smolinski to left wing). I again did not make any indications of what I felt the quality of that group is, but was pointing out that saying they only had 3 left wingers was wrong. As for your other post saying Higgins is not A top line winger yet, I never said that, and would agree with you. I said he was Montreal's top line left winger, which is undisputable regardless of whether he played center in the past, or will do so in the future.

I think in both cases, you tried to make an argument of convenience that you knew to be wrong, and when I pointed it out, tried to change the point of your argument.

Peace

HD

 

[JustBob]

Hard to predict but I think the Habs could finish anywhere between 7th and 10th.

Plus: A bit better on D, Higgins, Plekanec, Latendresse, Kostitsyn (although he didn't play a full year) and Carbo will all be more experienced.

Minus: No 1st line center/impact player, loss of Souray's production on the PP (however, although people keep bringing up this point over and over again, does anyone really believe that Souray will repeat this kind of production this year? I highly doubt it...). No real leader.

Constants: Like him or not, Ryder will score 30 goals. And Kovalev will still play when he feels like it... Acceptable goaltending. Price will get a shot in camp, but he's most likely 1-2 years away.

 

[joelcairo]

Thanks for the laughs, Bobby. You do realize, don't you, that you're predicting a better finish for a worse team. (Okay, you covered your bets by admitting that 10th is a possibility, but 7th, 8th, or 9th for this bunch? Only you could come up with something like this.)

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Ziggy, could you tell me who was the superstars (except Roy) in Mtl when they got the cup in 86 and 93

"Except Roy".Thanks for answering your own question. A superstar goalie is more susceptible to turn a team around 360 degrees than a superstar forward of defenseman simply because goalies generally plays from the first to the last minute of every game whereas forwards and defensemen are sitting on the bench 2/3 to 1/2 of the game. In terms of raw talent Roy was the goalie equivalent of Gretzky or Lemieux. A goalie is a team's most important player

 

[Cosmo]

Chelios was already a superstar.He won the Norris trophy in 89 has a Hab.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Hi Ziggy,

I was only responding to your comment earlier that the roster was an abberation because there were 12 defensemen. I never made any comments regarding what I felt the quality of those defensemen were. For the record, I think the defense corps is somewhat underrated, as there are no "sexy" picks that, save perhaps Markov, but is not one I would count on winning a cup with.

Similarly, I was responding to your comments that you indicated the Habs roster was an abberation because they only had 3 left wingers, per your post, they being Murray, Kostitsyn and Begin. I merely mentioned other options the Habs had at left wing, including Higgins, Smolinski, Grabovski or Chipchura (thus sliding Smolinski to left wing). I again did not make any indications of what I felt the quality of that group is, but was pointing out that saying they only had 3 left wingers was wrong. As for your other post saying Higgins is not A top line winger yet, I never said that, and would agree with you. I said he was Montreal's top line left winger, which is undisputable regardless of whether he played center in the past, or will do so in the future.

I think in both cases, you tried to make an argument of convenience that you knew to be wrong, and when I pointed it out, tried to change the point of your argument.

Peace

HD

You spoke of "organizational depth", I pointed out there's no such thing as depth when there's nothing to show at the surface: I don't see where's the argument of convenience. Sorry but stockpiling defensemen, a whole bunch of which won't see any action in the NHL this coming season, while your best "natural" left winger - Begin - would be a healthy scratch on most NHL teams, call it "organizational depth", call it whatever you want, shows that management's is in no rush to "win".

Switching players around, Higgins from center to left wing, etc..., to make up for a team's deficiencies rarely works. There's good reasons why players play such and such position through their entire careers, the main one being whether they shoot left or right. In USSR, back in those days, kids shooting right would play left wing whereas those shooting left would play right wing. That's how they learned their skills. In North America, it's the opposite.

 

[eastender]

Switching Players

You spoke of "organizational depth", I pointed out there's no such thing as depth when there's nothing to show at the surface: I don't see where's the argument of convenience. Sorry but stockpiling defensemen, a whole bunch of which won't see any action in the NHL this coming season, while your best "natural" left winger - Begin - would be a healthy scratch on most NHL teams, call it "organizational depth", call it whatever you want, shows that management's is in no rush to "win".

Switching players around, Higgins from center to left wing, etc..., to make up for a team's deficiencies rarely works. There's good reasons why players play such and such position through their entire careers, the main one being whether they shoot left or right. In USSR, back in those days, kids shooting right would play left wing whereas those shooting left would play right wing. That's how they learned their skills. In North America, it's the opposite.

Switching players is a sign of superior scouting and coaching.

In minor hockey - novice to junior the coaches tend to play the best player
at center or defence. In youth baseball the best infielder plays shortstop unless he is left handed.Best outfielder plays center.In youth football the best offensive lineman plays the key line position depending on the type of offence that is being run. The best athlete is often the quarterback.

An elite scout in each sport will recognize these factors and project where the athlete will be most effective at the pro level, given the strengths and weaknesses of the athlete and the team. If the team's coaches can not teach or facilitate the transition then it is difficult.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Switching players is a sign of superior scouting and coaching.

In minor hockey - novice to junior the coaches tend to play the best player
at center or defence. In youth baseball the best infielder plays shortstop unless he is left handed.Best outfielder plays center.In youth football the best offensive lineman plays the key line position depending on the type of offence that is being run. The best athlete is often the quarterback.

An elite scout in each sport will recognize these factors and project where the athlete will be most effective at the pro level, given the strengths and weaknesses of the athlete and the team. If the team's coaches can not teach or facilitate the transition then it is difficult.

Off topic (as usual). We're talking about switching players at NHL level , which is not a sign of any sort of superiority (more like an exercise to patch up holes).

 

[eastender]

Typical

Off topic (as usual). We're talking about switching players at NHL level , which is not a sign of any sort of superiority.

Reading what you want not what is written. Conveniently forgetting the great teams - Montreal Canadiens under Toe Blake as an example played Jacques Lemaire at left wing,Don Marshall at the three forward positions,Bob Rousseau would play center when injuries hit,Jean - Guy Talbot and Bob Turner played forward and defence. Scotty Bowman tried Guy Lafleur at center while playing a number of players at two positions - Pierre Mondou,Rejean Houle,Rick Chartraw and a few others.

The Leafs under Punch Imlach switched a Hall of Famer - Red Kelly from defence where he was an All-Star with Detroit to center. Bob Pulford,Ron Stewart and a few others would play center and wing or both wings.

These are examples from teams that strung together Stanley Cups - an obvious sign of superiority. Similar examples exist elsewhere.

Roster flexibility allows you to play a proven NHL player instead of a minor league call-up.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Doc,

In post #91 you mentioned Prezoghin as up an coming prospect.He no longer plays for the Habs.

Huh? I never said this, nor did i make post #91.

Didn't Perezoghin move back to Russia?

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Reading what you want not what is written.

Always changing your statement to always sound oh so wise, typical.

Conveniently forgetting the great teams - Montreal Canadiens under Toe Blake as an example played Jacques Lemaire at left wing,Don Marshall at the three forward positions,Bob Rousseau would play center when injuries hit,Jean - Guy Talbot and Bob Turner played forward and defence. Scotty Bowman tried Guy Lafleur at center while playing a number of players at two positions - Pierre Mondou,Rejean Houle,Rick Chartraw and a few others.

Conveniently forgetting that the players you are mentioning played behind dominant players. It's not Murray Wilson taking an occasional shift for Guy Lafleur who contributed most to the team's greatness, it's Guy Lafleur.

Conveniently forgetting that the current edition of the Montreal Canadien has no "Guy Lafleur" nor any "Steve Shutt" for every "Pierre Mondou" or "Rejean Houle" to play behind (on occasion). Quite differently, the 2007-2008 Habs will be featuring Chris Higgins, a promising yet inexperienced centerman, as their top left winger because there's no other left winger to show.

Team greatness is hardly achieved through switching players around. It's great players that make great teams.

The Leafs under Punch Imlach switched a Hall of Famer - Red Kelly from defence where he was an All-Star with Detroit to center. Bob Pulford,Ron Stewart and a few others would play center and wing or both wings.

What contributed most to the Leafs' success under Imlach? The fact that Kelly was switched to center or the fact that Kelly was a dominant player playing on the same line as another dominant player, Frank Mahovlich?

Great teams switching players around are great to begin with. Bad teams switching players around can hardly be any better than bad.

 

[eastender]

Check the Stats

Always changing your statement to always sound oh so wise, typical.

Conveniently forgetting that the players you are mentioning played behind dominant players. It's not Murray Wilson taking an occasional shift for Guy Lafleur who contributed most to the team's greatness, it's Guy Lafleur.

Conveniently forgetting that the current edition of the Montreal Canadien has no "Guy Lafleur" nor any "Steve Shutt" for every "Pierre Mondou" or "Rejean Houle" to play behind (on occasion). Quite differently, the 2007-2008 Habs will be featuring Chris Higgins, a promising yet inexperienced centerman, as their top left winger because there's no other left winger to show.

Team greatness is hardly achieved through switching players around. It's great players that make great teams.

What contributed most to the Leafs' success under Imlach? The fact that Kelly was switched to center or the fact that Kelly was a dominant player playing on the same line as another dominant player, Frank Mahovlich?

Great teams switching players around are great to begin with. Bad teams switching players around can hardly be any better than bad.

Check the stats - Chris Higgins as a center at Yale and Hamilton combined over 4 seasons tallied 83 goals and 88 assists.Not exactly playmaker numbers
for a center. Compare his Yale stats with the Sharks prospect Torrey Mitchell
from Vermont who will be in the NHL this season or next. Higgins also lacks the lateral movement of a first or second line NHL center.

Gordie Howe played on the same line as Alex Delvecchio and went about 15 seasons without winning the cup.Jean Ratelle on the same line as Rod Gilbert
about 12 seasons without winning a cup.Two fairly dominant pairings.

The Leafs under Imlach won because of defence and goaltending. Kelly a former defenceman at center brought defence to the Mahovlich line. Combined with the arrival of center Dave Keon and to go along with Armstrong, Pulford, Stewart, Harris rotating thru center they had the edge over the Canadiens at center with Beliveau, H.Richard and Backstrom/Goyette.

Murray Wilson was a limited left winger who never spelled Lafleur who was mainly a right winger and was often double shifted.By the way how many cups did the Canadiens win with Guy Lafleur after Jacques Lemaire retired?

 

[Cosmo]

Huh? I never said this, nor did i make post #91.

Didn't Perezoghin move back to Russia?

You are right,my mistake.Sorry.

It was Ziggy.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

You are right,my mistake.Sorry.

It was Ziggy.

I didn't know he left the team. NHL.com still shows him as a team member. What's his status? Went back to Russia?