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Hamas & Israel

minutemenX

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Everyone,

Once again, the moderation observes that political discussions are becoming increasingly uncivil. Some recent posts in this thread are testing the moderation's tolerance for these kinds of antics.

A reminder therefore, which has been made too often: this is an Escort review board first, not a political discussions forum. These spaces are provided as a courtesy to members who are also interested in these subjects.

The moderation reiterates the expectation that the discussions in the political threads will be civil and fully adhere to the Forum Rules, especially when members are at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

If it is not possible for you to engage in political discussions without attacking the character of other members, do not engage with these members - or simply stay away from the political discussions. Period. This applies to all members, without exception.

Thanks for your collaboration.
I agree. So, these are my comments to UN Secretary António Guterres today post who I believe is not a member of the MERB community (however who knows? ;) ):

"But there is a basic principle for me, and that is that Hamas is not the Palestinian people. And you need to be able to distinguish Hamas from the Palestinian people. And so you cannot use the horrific things that the Hamas did as a reason for collective punishment of the Palestinian people."

If UN Secretary does not have a shred of reasonable logic in his head what we can expect from the ordinary people?

- Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Ok, I get it. Hamas are Martians or at the very least North Koreans with clever plastic surgery. All birth certificates are forged.

- Hamas does not represent Palestinian People. Pardon me? I believe Palestinian people think otherwise. They elected Hamas in the first place. They were happy to align themselves with Hamas goal which is the destruction of Israel and killing Jews. They were OK with diverting international support money for building the largest terror infrastructure in the world. They, and not only a few thousands of Hamas fighters, built tunnels, thousands of rockets etc., and were proud of it. They were cheering for Hamas massacre on October 7th and were elated parading naked women and elderly hostages. They do not condemn Hamas action still both in Gaza and the West Bank not even a single person in interviews with the Western media.

This false narrative has to end: Germany is not Hitler (Hitler himself killed 6M Jews), Russia is not Putin (never mind thousands of Russian soldiers enthusiastically killing Ukrainians on their land), etc. It is the responsibility of every citizen to openly disagree, show civil disobedience, and fight the government that is against your basic convictions. If you align yourself with it, then “face the music”.
 
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Obvio-0bvio

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I agree. So, these are my comments to UN Secretary António Guterres today post who I believe is not a member of the MERB community (however who knows? ;) ):

"But there is a basic principle for me, and that is that Hamas is not the Palestinian people. And you need to be able to distinguish Hamas from the Palestinian people. And so you cannot use the horrific things that the Hamas did as a reason for collective punishment of the Palestinian people."

If UN Secretary does not have a shred of reasonable logic in his head what we can expect from the ordinary people?

- Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Ok, I get it. Hamas are Martians or at the very least North Koreans with clever plastic surgery. All birth certificates are forged.

- They do not represent Palestinian People. Pardon me? I believe Palestinian people think otherwise. They elected Hamas in the first place. They were happy to align themselves with Hamas goal which is the destruction of Israel and killing Jews. They were OK with diverting international support money for building the largest terror infrastructure in the world. They, and not only a few thousands of Hamas fighters, built tunnels, thousands of rockets etc., and were proud of it. They were cheering for Hamas massacre on October 7th and were elated parading naked women and elderly hostages. They do not condemn Hamas action still both in Gaza and the West Bank not even a single person in interviews with the Western media.

This narrative has to end: Hitler is not Germany (he himself killed 6M Jews), Putin is not Russia (never mind thousands of Russian soldiers enthusiastically killing Ukrainians on their land), etc. It is the responsibility of every citizen to openly disagree, show civil disobedience, and fight the government that is against your basic convictions. If you align yourself with it, then “face the music”.
I wholeheartedly agree with the moderator accurate assessment.I was actually planning to express the same sentiments as the moderator. In light of the ongoing war and its impact, I believe it is crucial for us to avoid being at odds with one another. Merb is not about fostering opposition, but rather promoting unity, unlike the divisive direction the world seems to be heading in. Instead of being against each other, let us prioritize mutual respect and avoid conflicts. Ultimately, we are all part of one big, caring family.
 
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CaptRenault

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"This conflict is not about land; it is about values. Jihad, violence and death versus freedom, equal rights and peace. Which side are you on?"

 

Obvio-0bvio

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Halloween Mike

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I am myself an atheist. I have no religious attachement. Im not a Jew.

I stand with Israel because what i saw on Oct 7 is barbaric and depraved. It have been done before from Islamist Jihad (9/11, Lodon Bombing, Bataclan and so on) but never to this level of atrocity, at least not on such a large scale. I mean more peoples died on 9/11 but the terrorists didn't go to the level of barbarism these guys did. They aimed to kill wich in itself is atrocious, but from my understanding everybody died rather quickly. Seeing the body of Shani Louk all bended in weird ways getting paraded and spit on while not only Hamas members but also "civlians" spit on her... Seeing Namaa Levy getting moved by her hair while her pants were full of blood (likely because she was raped by many peoples)... The testimonies from journalist saying small kids were thrown grenades at ... families burned. That video of this guy getting hit by a shovel while they tried to decapitate him. I could go on and on. All of this is so atrocious ... while these monsters cheered and were happy.

Hamas use civilians to hide, they use hospitals to hide and put their base on. Im sure some civilians do not support Hamas (there was a video of one women in particular wich was shocking, one guy covered her mouth), but the reality is half the population of Gaza is brainwashed in wishing death and harm to Israel, thinking death is some kind of reward, while the other half is either too young to do anything or too afraid (rightfully so).

There is no "good outcome". What Israel is doing now is the only way. Its sad to see children dies of course ! But the reality is Hamas could end this. They could surrender inconditionally and release the hostage. They don't. Just like Japan in 45, sometimes extreme measures is all you can do.... You think these civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima deserved it? Of course not !! Tons of innocent civilians died. Its horrible. But somewhat in history books USA is seen as the good guy...

So the IDF does what is must do... as ugly as it is.

What really trouble me is seeing all these "pro palestinians protests". Some just want a ceasefire ok, wich i can understand they THINK its the right thing even if its not. But a LOT are for Hamas, and agree to what they did, and want Israel erradicated. That is so scary. These peoples are not in Gaza or Iran. They are among us... in Montreal, in Toronto.

So personally, i say IDF need to fight til Hamas is erradicated to the last one (or all surrender) and all hostages are freed or their body recovered. Israel tried to let Gaza be ruled by others. Look where it took them. They need to assure security.

Edit : I look a bit at last page and some of you quoted Jackson Hinkle... this guy is a conspiracy theorist, a total nutjob... He spread lies like he breathe. He is basically Alex Jones on steroids. Using him won't get you any points.
 
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Obvio-0bvio

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Then choose
Hello my friend, I respect your choice , but perhaps we should refrain from following the prevalent trend of picking sides and fostering division.

I strongly believe that the media is playing a significant role in instigating this divisive environment, with motives that surpass our comprehension.

Interestingly enough, I recall a recent occurrence where the media also emphasized the distinction between those who received vaccinations and those who did not.

Personally, I find this to be a peculiar coincidence, first with the pandemic and now with the war conflicts. Let us set aside our political affiliations and focus on the purpose of this forum.

We have gathered here to discuss service providers, an area in which we are very passionate and unable to control our enthusiasm.

Therefore, let us remain true to our purpose and refrain from partaking in the world's divisive behavior. We are united for one reason only, and that is to service providers.
 

minutemenX

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Hello my friend, I respect your choice , but perhaps we should refrain from following the prevalent trend of picking sides and fostering division.
Therefore, let us remain true to our purpose and refrain from partaking in the world's divisive behavior. We are united for one reason only, and that is to service providers.
It is not a very comfortable and wise to sit on the fence in the middle of the war field. You will not get any brownie points from both sides, just bullets.
 
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neverbored

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Visit site

This looked sketchy as hell lol
Did a quick check, and it looks like there is something really fishy behind that domain. Its also not passing antivirus check....Pretty sure you don't want a cookie set for that domain either... just saying.
 
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Obvio-0bvio

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It is not a very comfortable and wise to sit on the fence in the middle of the war field. You will not get any brownie points from both sides, just bullets.
I understand your point, my friend, but I am exhausted from following the same path as everyone else.

Instead, I suggest we adopt a neutral stance and hope for a positive outcome in this war. I am unwilling to blindly take sides as the media is pressuring everyone to do.

It is evident that both countries are responsible for their actions. Let's observe how events unfold and witness the world's reaction.

However, I am resolute in my refusal to engage in the divisive behavior that the world is currently promoting.
 

neverbored

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There is no "good outcome". What Israel is doing now is the only way. Its sad to see children dies of course ! But the reality is Hamas could end this. They could surrender inconditionally and release the hostage. They don't. Just like Japan in 45, sometimes extreme measures is all you can do.... You think these civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima deserved it? Of course not !! Tons of innocent civilians died. Its horrible. But somewhat in history books USA is seen as the good guy...

Who wins the war writes the history books. You would be surprised to know what other "history" books might say about the need to use the nukes in WW2. What if I told you that the war was practically over and US was running out of time for a real live test ? Ever wonder why 2 bombs in such a short time? What if it wasn't in fear of an already defeated Japan, but the fear of empowering Russia? Just saying...

As for Hamas... well, Zionists, Hamas, Isis, Hezbollah, all the same shit to me... same methods different bosses. Remember Hamas members may be Palestinian, but not all Palestinians are Hamas. At least the USA appeared to try to hit actual military targets and sadly affected collateral damage.... these other idiots are hitting collateral victims in hopes of hitting some military targets. But hey, spaze lasers , am I right?

But to say "Hamas could end this... they could surrender" lol dude... WTF ... you need to go educate yourself my brother. Not trying to be rude but man... To quote the annoying Elon Musk, "For every Hamas member you kill, how many do you create". He's absolutely right and this applies to Jews as well. I want you to put yourself in the shoes of anyone living a conflict (Jew or Palestinians. etc.) and think about how you would react if you came home one day to find your home blown up, your sister raped, mother, wife, son, daughter just a puddle of goo on the ground or burnt to a crisp. Now, tell me you can remain sane and not want to burn every single person that looks like the culprit and their offspring.... The same can be said during the US occupation. Do you realize that kids that grew up in Afganistan or Irak during the war, grew up hating playing on beautiful sunny days because that's when drones would fly over and drop bombs? Even US veterans... how do you unbrainwash a soldier and make him not see an Arab person as a potential risk ?

Ever wonder why Quebec still speaks French? It sure isn't because they surrendered inconditionally. My entire family is francophone, except for me. I can still hear my grandmother crying because some saleswoman at TheBay refused to serve her in French and insisted she speak "canadian"... I can't even imagine if someone had harmed her in front of me... this whole thing is an absolute cluster fuck. And I don't blame victims on either side. But I do blame all heads of state for causing this for their own profits. They should all be forced into an arena with their first born to fight it out like gladiators. Fucking cowards.

And yes... I do think its important that we talk about it. This community can share intimate experiences about how they enjoy getting their dicks sucked... but can't talk about these horrific acts and how people are supporting either side?

PS. Sorry for the rant. I needed to say it, don't have time to edit. Also, not atheist but definitly agnostic and fuck all man-made religions... its 2023 for fucks sake. May all those that hurt others be butt fucked in their respective hell and get a negative review for not doing DFK.
 
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Fradi

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There is no winner on either side in this.
How do you get over or resolve your family members and loved ones being murdered and slaughtered on either side.
Is there anyway to ever forgive that. Is there anyway to justify that.
It is not the people on either side that want this but the politicians or terrorists to me there is not much difference that create this hatred.
People want the same the world over, they want a peaceful life a decent living, and a better life for their children than they had.
 

poupsy

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I agree with all of you . War is shit. Why do we have to kill each other instead of just fucking each others?
Having said that and not being jewish myself I just wonder why this conflict is so polarized.
Why the antisemitism rose up to record numbers since this happened? Why this issue on such a small land and relative small number of people is drawing so much division in our society? and please don't give me the occupation BS. Palestinain could have had a state many times. Pakistan and India were partitioned in 1947 (Google: Crudely, this was a division based upon religious affiliation, with the creation of a Muslim majority in West and East Pakistan and a Hindu majority in India. Between 500,000 and 2 million souls perished as a result of the ensuing upheaval and violence.) and it's fine with everyone.
No one is questioning this neither rioting for 300000 syrians killed by Assad couple of years ago or Saudi destructive strikes in Yemen,
My concern is this hate against jewish people in our streets and schools. It is not the society we want. and we certainly don't want charia to shut down agencies and MPs
peace and love
 

CaptRenault

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I don't agree with the idea that both sides in this conflict are equally guilty and that the conflict could be solved if both sides would just "try to get along." :rolleyes:

Hamas is solely responsible for starting this war and there is no way for Israel to compromise with them. Furthermore, many, perhaps most people in Gaza, fully support Hamas and its murderous, intolerant, uncivilized ideology. Though now that Gazans realize that rule by Hamas has led to the destruction of half their land, Gazans may be willing to modify their beliefs (similar to the Germans and Japanese in WWII).

Andrew Roberts is an eminent British historian who has written some great books on WWII, Napoleon, Churchill, etc.

In this opinion piece from this week, he argues convincingly that Hamas is worse (qualitatively though not quantitatively) than the Nazis. I agree with his assessment of Hamas.


...In October 1943 Heinrich Himmler, the head of the SS, delivered a notorious speech to 50 of his senior lieutenants in Posen. "I want to speak frankly to you about an extremely grave matter," he said. "We can talk about it among ourselves, yet we will never speak of it in public. … I am referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. … It is a page of glory in our history that has never been written and is never to be written."

By total contrast, the Hamas killers 80 years later attached GoPro cameras to their helmets so they could livestream their atrocities over social media. Although the Nazis burnt Jews alive in barns on their retreat in 1945, they did not film themselves doing it. There are plenty of photographs of Nazis standing around death-pits full of Jewish corpses, but these were taken for private delectation rather than public consumption.

When on January 27, 1945, the Red Army reached Auschwitz, they only found 7,000 living skeletons there out of a normal camp population of 140,000, because the Nazis had marched the rest westwards, partly in order kill the death-marchers but also because they did not want evidence of their crimes to be uncovered. Gassing operations there had ended in November 1944, and attempts were made to destroy the gas chambers. "Killing installations had been dismantled," writes Sir Ian Kershaw in his book The End, "and attempts made to rase the traces of the camp’s murderous activities."

The sheer glee with which Hamas, by contrast, killed parents in front of their children and of children in front of their parents, was broadcast to the world. Nazi sadism was routine and widespread, but it wasn’t built into their actual operational plans in the way that Hamas’s sadism has been...

After invading countries, the Nazis often took hostages to ensure the compliance of the local population with their proclamations. The mayor, businessmen, the popular village priest, and other worthies would be taken hostage and threatened with execution if resistance were offered to their rule. It was brutal and in contravention of all the rules of war, but even the Nazis, foul as they were, did not deliberately take nine-month-old babies and young children, women, and octogenarians hostage, as Hamas has done. Nor did the Nazis use babies in incubators and children in hospital ICU units as human shields..

Rape has been seen in every conflict since the dawn of time. The officer corps of civilized countries denounce it, and in the Second World War even the barbaric Nazis had strict rules against their Aryan master-race having sex with people they considered Untermenschen. "One of the differences between the atrocities committed by the Nazis who were carrying out the Final Solution and many other war crimes of the twentieth century," writes Laurence Rees in his book Auschwitz, "is the overt insistence by the Nazis that their troops refrain from sexual violence, not out of humanity but out of ideology. … The Jews and Slavic population of the East represented, to the Nazis, racially dangerous peoples. … Slav and Jewish women (especially the latter) were absolutely out of bounds. Killing Jewish women was a duty, but having sex with them was a crime."

Of course this was regularly ignored in practice. Maris Rowe-McCulloch’s "Sexual Violence Under Occupation During World War II" shows how the Nazis regularly forced women into military brothels; indeed there was a brothel in Auschwitz itself. SS officers who raped Jewish women there tended to be transferred out, but not punished. One officer, Gerhard Palitzsch, was arrested, but only transferred to a sub-camp of Birkenau. German officers were instructed not to punish rape when it occurred, as a 1940 memorandum from Field Marshal Walther von Brauchitsch in Regina Mühlhäuser’s "Reframing Sexual Violence as a Weapon and Strategy of War" shows. But that is different from the Hamas leadership giving their men orders to rape as many Jewish women as they could find and film themselves doing it, and in all too many cases taking them hostage afterwards or killing them.

In Hitler’s Willing Executioners, Daniel Goldhagen notes how "Hitler opted for genocide at the first moment that the policy became practical. The moment that the opportunity existed for the only Final Solution that was final, Hitler seized the opportunity to bring about his ideal of a world forever freed of Jewry and made the leap to genocide." This came in 1941 when both Poland and the western USSR were under his control. (Over half of all Europe’s Jews lived in the Soviet Union then.) "Demonological racial antisemitism was the motive force of the eliminationist program," Goldhagen adds, "pushing it to its logical genocidal conclusion once German military prowess succeeded in creating appropriate conditions."

Yet Hamas embarked on its genocidal attack when it only had southern Israel under its control for a few hours, and thus when it knew that the Israeli response would be instantaneous and devastating. Unlike the Nazis, who hoped that their murders could be hidden by the fog of war and complete territorial domination, Hamas grasped at their window of opportunity in the full knowledge that they would be punished for it, and soon. Whereas the Nazis assumed they would win the war and thus would never have to face retribution for their crimes, Hamas knew it was only a matter of hours away, yet still they launched their attack, caring nothing for the effect on ordinary Gazans. Their lust for torturing and murdering Jews was therefore even more powerful than the Nazis’, who waited until the front line had pushed forward before sending in the Einsatzkommando to wipe out Polish and Russian Jewish communities.

Toward the end of the war, senior Nazis like Heinrich Himmler and Ernst Kaltenbrunner tried to exchange Jews for cash, exposing how fundamentally cynical and corrupt they were, but also how they were willing to put greed over the killing impulse. Hamas, by contrast, was doing well out of the relative hiatus in military activity before October 7, with thousands of Gazans being issued work permits to earn more in Israel than they ever could in Gaza. Unlike even the heinous anti-Semites Himmler and Kaltenbrunner, therefore, Hamas has not put its greed for cash over its one true love: killing Jews.

"Very many, probably most, Germans were opposed to the Jews during the Third Reich," writes Ian Kershaw in his book Hitler, The Germans and the Final Solution, "welcomed their exclusion from the economy and society, and saw them as natural outsiders to the German ‘National Community,’ a dangerous minority against whom it was legitimate to discriminate. Most would have drawn the line at physical maltreatment. The very secrecy of the Final Solution demonstrates more clearly than anything else the fact that the Nazi leadership felt it could not rely on popular backing for its exterminationist policy."

Here, too, the contrast with Hamas is obvious. The elimination of Jews is openly promised in the Hamas constitution, as it tacitly is in the "From the river to the sea" chant so beloved of today’s demonstrators in the West. Gazans voted for Hamas in 2005 in far greater proportions than Germans voted for the Nazis in 1932, and a good proportion of them celebrated wildly when Hamas paraded its hostages through the streets of Gaza on the afternoon of October 7.

Kershaw writes of how "The Final Solution would not have been possible without the … depersonalization and debasement of the figure of the Jew." In both Gaza and the West Bank, printed educational textbooks present Jews as despicable, worthless, and sinister figures, utterly depersonalized and debased. This is a recipe for further generational conflict. Kershaw argues that in Nazi Germany, ordinary Germans’ "‘mild’ anti-Semitism was clearly quite incapable of containing the progressive radical dynamism of the racial fanatics and the deadly bureaucratization of the doctrine of race-hatred." This is still more true of Gaza today.
 

minutemenX

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As for Hamas... well, Zionists, Hamas, Isis, Hezbollah, all the same shit to me... same methods different bosses.

But to say "Hamas could end this... they could surrender" lol dude... WTF ...
I spent to much time on this board on this topic but thus we go again...
People do not think logically, this is the problem. Even some seem to be intelligent people on this board. Most are repeating mantras and cliches from the popular media. One of such cliches is that Palestinians are fighting for their freedom and statehood for over 75 years. Anybody with more than 2 brain cells can see that this is not the case. All this years Palestinians were fighting for only one goal: the elimination of Israel. If they really wanted state, they would behave in the very opposite way. Israel is the only country or at very least the key player that can give them their statehood. Israel however repeated thousand times that giving statehood to people who openly declare their goal to eliminate it and kill Jews is suicidal, which is confirmed by the recent events. The state can have an army, import arms, harbor terrorists etc., so the problem Israel faces now will be multiplied by thousand times with Palestinian state. The conditions Israel put forward are that the future Palestinian state should not pose any threat to Israel, especially terrorist, and is committed to a peaceful and secure mutually beneficial co-existence. Israel has also declared multiple times that it is ready for big concessions if these conditions are met and has already made several steps toward it in the past. Palestinians however did not do a single smallest step in this direction and seems to be unwilling in the future. They did not change their charters that declare Israel to be an illegal entity, the curriculum in schools teaches to hate Israel and Jews, they pay pensions to terrorists and glorify them openly at regular state-organized public events etc. Go to the East Jerusalem and you will see official posters glorifying martyrs with suicide vests everywhere. They always ready for the next “glorious” attack on Israeli civilians at the first opportunity as Hamas did. Yes, they often engage in a double-talk saying in English all “right” words on western media but never repeat the same words in Arabic to their population inside. Israel is no fool, it knows them better that they do themselves and is ready only for a real and honest deal. The solution? It is in the hands of Palestinians as it has always been for over 75 years. They should start making real plans for peace and their state.
 
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Obvio-0bvio

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While I am filled with immense relief and joy to witness the safe return of the hostages, a sense of skepticism lingers within me regarding the unusually large number of hostages released by Hamas. This raises suspicions, especially considering the significant value each hostage holds for Hamas. Rumors circulating from China further fuel these doubts, suggesting that Hamas may be setting up deceptive traps or plotting something horrendous against the IDF.

Though I sincerely hope that Hamas is engaging in this hostage exchange out of genuine compassion and a desire for political diplomacy, my knowledge of their history and tactics leads me to harbor strong doubts about their true intentions.
 
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