Hamas & Israel

[Halloween Mike]

While I am filled with immense relief and joy to witness the safe return of the hostages, a sense of skepticism lingers within me regarding the unusually large number of hostages released by Hamas. This raises suspicions, especially considering the significant value each hostage holds for Hamas. Rumors circulating from China further fuel these doubts, suggesting that Hamas may be setting up deceptive traps or plotting something horrendous against the IDF.

There is no doubt that they are using this ceasefire (or pause, call it as you want) to regroup and prepare traps, plans etc to fight back. Israel itself admited it when they agreed to it. For Israel this was a chance to at least get SOME hostages back, especially with pressure from the famillies. But they knew right away that sadly this would make the fight harder after and likely result in the death of more soldiers. But its a price they were willing to pay.

 

[Sic92]

Lire ce thread est vraiment amusant, que dire si je suis pas mal déçu de la capacité d'analyse et de l'objectivité de pas mal de gens que j'estimais pourtant être en retrait de toutes formes de propagande médiatique. Hélas, il semblerait qu'il ne soit pas donner à tous de ne pas être biaisé dans ce qu'on affirme. Personne, je dis bien personne n'arrivera à me faire croire que l'entité sioniste est victime de quoique ce soit. Si demain la Terre court un risque de connaître une 3ième guerre mondiale, soyez certain que l'état raciste, criminel et d'apartheid israélien ne sera pas du tout étranger à un tel désastre.

 

[CaptRenault]

This video provides an excellent summary of the Israeli perspective on the war against Hamas. Obviously, I agree with it, because I embrace the same civilized values of freedom, democracy, tolerance, progress, and peace that the Palestinians have continually rejected since the formation of Israel in 1948. As the narrator says: "The people of Gaza are not choosing terror because they are poor; they are poor because they choose terror."

BTW, I see that YouTube is trying to censor this video by making it "age restricted." This is leftist censorship bullshit. There is nothing at all objectionable about the content-no nudity, war or terrorist video. It's just an Israeli guy talking about the war. Click on the link and you can watch it on YouTube.

 

[Sic92]

This video provides an excellent summary of the Israeli perspective on the war against Hamas. Obviously, I agree with it, because I embrace the same civilized values of freedom, democracy, tolerance, progress, and peace that the Palestinians have continually rejected since the formation of Israel in 1948. As the narrator says: "The people of Gaza are not choosing terror because they are poor; they are poor because they choose terror."

BTW, I see that YouTube is trying to censor this video by making it "age restricted." This is leftist censorship bullshit. There is nothing at all objectionable about the content-no nudity, war or terrorist video. It's just an Israeli guy talking about the war. Click on the link and you can watch it on YouTube.

I swear to god that you are trolling at this point dude

 

[CaptRenault]

I swear to god that you are trolling at this point dude

Hmm, typical ad hominen response when you have no good arguments to make.

I assure that I am not trolling. I sincerely, unequivocally, unambiguously believe everything that I have posted in this thread. I fully support Israel's war against Hamas and I hope that it comes to a successful conclusion as soon as possible.

How about you? Do you sincerely believe that Israel is a "racist, criminal, apartheid state" ["...soyez certain que l'état raciste, criminel et d'apartheid israélien..."] or are you just trolling? I don't think so-I believe you are sincere. Do you also embrace the Hamas Covenant of 1988 and support the Hamas terrorist attack that killed 1200 people and took 250 hostage on October 7?

 

[EagerBeaver]

I swear to god that you are trolling at this point dude

There was nothing even remotely trolling about CR's post. He posted a video from an Israeli who gave the Israeli point of view which, from what I know, is very likely the point of view of a majority or perhaps vast majority of Israelis. Indeed I have relatives there and they feel exactly the same way and have made similar statements to me.

 

[Sic92]

Hmm, typical ad hominen response when you have no good arguments to make.

I assure that I am not trolling. I sincerely, unequivocally, unambiguously believe everything that I have posted in this thread. I fully support Israel's war against Hamas and I hope that it comes to a successful conclusion as soon as possible.

How about you? Do you sincerely believe that Israel is a "racist, criminal, apartheid state" ["...soyez certain que l'état raciste, criminel et d'apartheid israélien..."] or are you just trolling? I don't think so-I believe you are sincere. Do you also embrace the Hamas Covenant of 1988 and support the Hamas terrorist attack that killed 1200 people and took 250 hostage on October 7?

You support a genocidal and a criminal entity and it might be motivated by a certain racism or hatred, period.

 

[CaptRenault]

In recent days, we have been learning the extent to which Hamas used rape as a weapon to terrorize Israeli women and their loved ones. A columnist for the Wall Street Journal describes the extent of the horror and why the story has taken time to emerge:

Opinion | The Rape of the Israeli Women

Hamas’s crimes on Oct. 7 were deliberate and systematic. Why has the left been disbelieving, silent or equivocal?

www.wsj.com

At first I didn’t understand. Among Hamas’s crimes of 10/7: little children and babies murdered, some burned to death; children forced to watch parents chased, beaten and shot. Old couples murdered in their homes; families who’d taken refuge in safe rooms burned out and killed. Hamas attempted to behead a kibbutz worker, and killed old women standing at a bus stop. Women were abused—raped, it seemed certain. But I didn’t understand why, from day one, the last received such emphasis. Defenders of Hamas kept demanding proof and claiming there was no evidence. It was as if they were saying: Sure we behead people and kill infants but raping someone, that’s crossing a line!

But now I understand what was done. It was grim and dreadful, but it was also systematic and deliberate. And since there’s going to be a lot of 10/7 trutherism—there already is—we have to be clear about what happened.

In the days after the attack, chaos reigned in the attack areas. At least 1,200 people had been murdered, their bodies scattered through kibbutzim and on the site of the Nova music festival. The crime scene was huge; the priority was identifying the dead and informing their families. Documentation of crimes was incomplete, forensic evidence not always recorded, evidence perishable. The testimony of witnesses, body collectors and morgue workers came in unevenly. It has built and is becoming comprehensive.
A stunning report appeared last weekend in London’s Sunday Times, by reporter Christina Lamb. Bar Yuval-Shani, a 58-year-old psychotherapist treating the families of victims, told Ms. Lamb she has been told by several witnesses of rape at the music festival. A police commander told Ms. Lamb, “It’s clear now that sexual crimes were part of the planning, and the purpose was to terrify and humiliate people.” Ms. Lamb quotes Yoni Saadon, 39, a father of four and shift manager in a foundry who was at the music festival. He said he hid as a young woman was raped, and saw Hamas fighters capture another young woman near a car. “She was fighting back, not allowing them to strip her. They threw her to the ground and one of the terrorists took a shovel and beheaded her.”
“We didn’t understand at first,” Ms. Lamb quoted Cochav Elkayam-Levy, a Hebrew University expert on international law, who heads a commission into the Hamas crimes. She said survivors arriving at hospitals weren’t asked about sexual abuse or given rape kits, but those who volunteered to collect bodies started reporting that many of the women were naked and bleeding from the genitals. The commander of a unit of a volunteer religious organization that collected the remains of the dead told Ms. Lamb they collected 1,000 bodies in 10 days from the festival site and the kibbutzim. “No one saw more than us. . . . It seemed their mission was to rape as many as possible.”

Israel Defense Forces sources told the paper that Hamas fighters caught in Gaza reported in police interrogations that they had been instructed by superiors to “dirty” and “whore” the women.
A few days after the Sunday Times report came one on the mounting evidence of violent sexual abuse from BBC correspondent Lucy Williamson. Several of those involved in collecting and identifying the bodies of the dead told the BBC that they had seen “multiple signs of sexual assault, including broken pelvises, bruises, cuts and tears, and that the victims ranged from children and teenagers to pensioners.” Video testimony of an eyewitness to the music festival, shown to journalists by Israeli police, “detailed the gang rape, mutilation and execution of one victim.” The BBC saw “videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack.”
The gallant gents of Hamas were filming their own war crimes.

Israeli police have privately shown journalists filmed testimony of a woman at the music festival. She describes Hamas fighters gang-raping a woman and then mutilating her. The last of her attackers shot her in the head. She said the men cut off parts of the woman’s body during the rape. In other videos, Ms. Williamson writes, women carried away by the terrorists “appear to be naked or semi-clothed.”

Reuters on Dec. 5 quoted an Israeli reservist who worked at a makeshift morgue. “Often women came in in just their underwear,” she said. “I saw very bloody genitals on women.” Reuters spoke to seven people, first responders and those dealing with the dead, who attested to the sexual violence. Reuters quotes written testimony from one volunteer, who said he saw dozens of dead women in shelters: “Their clothing was torn on the upper part, but their bottoms were completely naked.”

This Monday a meeting at the United Nations laid out proof of the violent abuse. In the New York Times, reporters Katherine Rosman and Lisa Lerer quoted the testimony of Simcha Greinman, a volunteer collector of remains at the kibbutzim. He said the body of one woman had “nails and different objects in her female organs.” A person’s genitals were so mutilated “we couldn’t identify if it was a man or a woman.” Other women had mutilated faces. The head of the International Crime Investigations Unit of the Israeli police was asked how many women were abused. He said, “I am talking about dozens.”

If half of this testimony is true, then what was done to the women at the music festival and in the kibbutzim wasn’t a series of isolated crimes. It happened at scale, as part of a pattern, and with a deliberateness that strongly suggests it was systematic. The rape, torture and mutilation of women looks as if it was part of the battle plan. Hamas used sexual violence as a weapon.

Why has the progressive left in the West, for two months now, been disbelieving, silent or equivocal about what Hamas did to women? One answer is that the progressive left hates Israel and feels whatever is done to Israelis is justified. Another is that the sick brutality of Hamas’s actions undercuts its position in the world, undercutting too the cause they falsely claim to represent, that of the Palestinian people. Why have women’s groups of the progressive left been silent? Because at bottom they aren’t for women; they are for the team.

All of this makes more remarkable the exchange between Dana Bash of CNN and Democratic Rep. Pramila Jayapal of Seattle. Ms. Bash pressed Ms. Jayapal on why she wasn’t condemning what had been done to women on 10/7. Ms. Jayapal was evasive, tried to redirect, said rape is “horrific” but “happens in war situations.”

“However,” she said, “I think we have to be balanced about bringing in the outrages against Palestinians.”

Balanced? How do you balance a story like the horrors of Oct. 7? You don’t, you just find and tell the truth. Some stories don’t have two sides. This is one of them.

Why is it important? Because it happened. Because it reveals something about the essential nature of Hamas and reflects its ultimate political goals. Progressives admiringly quote Maya Angelou’s advice that when people show you who they are, believe them. Oct. 7 was Hamas showing you who they are. Believe them.

 

[minutemenX]

Balanced? How do you balance a story like the horrors of Oct. 7? You don’t, you just find and tell the truth. Some stories don’t have two sides. This is one of them.

What person can be instructed to gang rape a woman, then cut her breasts off before beheading with a shovel? Not one or two, hundreds of women were gang-raped, mutilated and killed. I almost vomited when I just read about it. This kind of behaviour has been installed, conditioned, and cultivated from the childhood by the school and family in everyday life interactions. Hamas are not Martians or some special tribe from Afghanistan that is brought to Gaza. They are large part of the Gaza’s population where even now 70% support it. They are not even soldiers that lives in special barracks where they can be brainwashed. It is a militia that lives with family and interacting with family members every day. After October 7, they were praised and celebrated telling their stories and showing their videos to family members: their brothers, sisters, wives and even kids. They were expected approval from their parents, and they got it. This is just showing the enormous level of hatred towards Jews in the general population where the most horrible crimes against Jews as people and a Jew as individual are not only approved but celebrated. How do you make peace and negotiate with these people after the war? Hamas as an organization will be destroyed and its leaders will be killed in a month or two. What to do with Hamas in the heads of 2 million?

 

[EagerBeaver]

I do not understand why all of this is being reported now internationally because it was widely reported within Israel in the days after the Hamas invasion:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-violence-hamas-israel-what-we-know-intl

 

[EagerBeaver]

The University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League School which has condoned and permitted protests by pro-Palestinians calling for the genocide of Jews, has been crushed financially since then and has just lost a $100 million donation, which is on top of many other losses of donations:

Elizabeth Magill: UPenn loses $100m donation after House antisemitism testimony

A major University of Pennsylvania donor withdraws grant after Congress hearing about antisemitism on campus.

www.bbc.com

It is one thing to post stupidities on the Internet anonymously where there are no repercussions. It is quite another to allow this type of thing to play out in the public forum, and deeply insult many Jewish donors to many Ivy League schools. These Universities have now been crushed in their wallets, where it counts. Take their money away and you WILL change their behavior.

There is no doubt that Liz Magill, President of the University of Pennsylvania, will be fired or forced to resign over this:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/08/business/upenn-president-liz-magill-resign/index.html

In truth, I think University Presidents have a very, very difficult job with handling the protests and counterprotests. There was a very bad situation at Cooper Union in New York City where Jewish students were locked in to the school's library during a "Free Palestine" rally:

Jewish students locked in NYC’s Cooper Union as protesters chanted ‘Free Palestine’

NY Governor Kathy Hochul and Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine express alarm over incident; 'It was tense, people were nervous,' student says

www.timesofisrael.com

The problem was allowing and condoning the situation in the first place. The solution to this issue is to have more precise Codes of Conduct that the students sign off on, permitting peaceful protest consistent with the US Constitution, but forbidding violent rhetoric and hate which constitute "fighting words" that are NOT protected by the US Constitution's 1st Amendment and never have been. Liz Magill's successor should make it his or her first order of business to revise the Code of Conduct in question.

As an attorney, I have been asked to draft a Code of Conduct, due to a bullying incident at a private dance school as between several young girls. There are plenty of Codes of Conduct at plenty of schools, disallowing such conduct and making it a ground for expulsion from school. I think we will be seeing students held increasingly accountable with revised Codes of Conduct and they will be aggressively and forcefully expelled when they behave like some of these protesters have behaved. The universities mentioned in the above article are now dealing with a SEVERE loss of funding, not to mention a Congressional investigation. Several grant programs at Harvard have had to be shut down as a result. The consequences will be termination of the leadership of the universities that lost the funding by the Board of Trustees, new leadership blood, and new rules that hold students accountable for hateful and wrongful speech and protests.

Ironically, that's exactly what the Israelis are seeking to accomplish with this war- change the leadership equation.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The Wharton Board has called on Magill to resign:

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/08/penn-antisemitism-wharton-magill-resign

Donald Trump went to Wharton, although I do not believe he is on the board.

 

[Anna Bijou]

View attachment 60977

Sounds amazing, man! Well, I guess....?

Maybe as quick google search before posting would help avoid posting something verifiably false.

But thank you for bringing up a great point. It's a perfect example to highlight the core issue:
Palestinians have no rights, certainly not equal rights!

Which leads to another question.

As a citizen of Israel, she doesn't have to worry about getting kidnapped in the middle of the night, refused a lawyer, abused physically, verbally, and sometimes sexually. She'd never be denied medical care, or food, kept in solitary confinement for extended periods, experience sleep deprivation (both considered torture) interrogated for hours and days, to eventually be made to sign a "statement" written in Hebrew, a language they don't understand. She'll never be kept hostage by Israel for an unknown amount of time (weeks, months, years - whatever they decide).

As an Israeli, she would be going through the civil system, while Palestinians are the only children to be arrested and kept hostage under the military court system, which allows Israel to keep hostages under administrative detention, meaning they can be held without charges for as long as their captors decide.

If their captors eventually decide to charge them, they'll be unable to defend themselves because the documents, evidence, or anything relating to the charges will be kept secret for "security" reasons. The conviction rate is 99.4%, which means they almost always negotiate a plea, which also means a huge number of convicted "terrorists", like the ones that were released in the exchange of hostages, never actually committed any crime, or their "crime" was to throw rocks at tanks, participating in a protest..

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Though I sincerely hope that Hamas is engaging in this hostage exchange out of genuine compassion and a desire for political diplomacy..

The true intentions for the hostages are really simple. I've checked our media and it honestly couldn't suck more than it does, if it managed to leave this out: the hostages are meant to get Palestinian hostages out of Israeli detention. It's also meant for people to ask themselves, eh why are there so many? Many people did start asking what was going on.

Jailed without charge: How Israel holds thousands of Palestinian prisoners​ Israel has called Palestinians released under a truce with Hamas violent ‘terrorists.’ But most haven’t been charged.​ As Palestinian prisoners were being released last week, Israel imposed a ban on celebrations by their family members. “Expressions of joy”, National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said, “are equivalent to backing terrorism”. Israel has presented imprisoned Palestinians as “terrorists” and has subjected many of the detainees to abuse. But of the 300 Palestinian women and children whom Israel has identified for potential release as part of the humanitarian pause between Israel and Hamas, nearly 80 percent were not even formally charged. An overwhelming majority of Palestinian prisoners were arrested under a quasi-judicial process known as administrative detention, under which Palestinians are initially jailed for six months. Their detentions can then be repeatedly extended for an indefinite period without charge or trial. Most Palestinians, including children, are tried in military courts and handed lengthy sentences in what critics call sham military trials because in many cases Palestinians are deprived of defence lawyers and due process. In comparison, Israeli citizens are tried in civil courts, highlighting the two-tier justice system that discriminates against Palestinians. ​ Who is on the list?​ The vast majority of the Palestinians – 233 prisoners out of the 300 – on Israel’s release list have not been formally charged and were held as administrative detainees. An overwhelming majority of them are children. The youngest is 14. Almost three-quarters of them are from the occupied West Bank, which has seen a surge of arrests since the start of Israel’s war on Gaza on October 7. The West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem had already seen a spike in Israeli raids this year even before the war. The longest serving prisoner among the 300 has been held for 102 months, or eight-and-a-half years. The most recent prisoner was arrested two months ago. Nearly half of the prisoners have no affiliation with any Palestinian political or armed group. Others are believed to be affiliated with Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. ... Prisoners may be held under administrative detention indefinitely. During that time, which could span years, the prisoners, their families and their lawyers may remain in the dark as to what the prisoner has been charged with and what evidence there is against them. Israel has arrested an estimated one million Palestinians since occupying East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in 1967, according to a United Nations report released last year. A considerable number of them are believed to be administrative detainees. ... When charges are filed, they regularly include “terrorist” activities, which could include acts against Israeli soldiers or settlers, and “incitement”, which includes influencing public opinion. Traffic violations or being in Israel illegally for work also bring Palestinians into the military judicial system, which has a conviction rate of 99 percent. In contrast to Palestinians, Israeli settlers arrested in the West Bank are tried in civilian courts inside Israel. This practice has in effect created two legal systems, which human rights groups have called discriminatory and a form of “apartheid”. How are Palestinians treated in prison?​ Some of the Palestinian prisoners who have been released as part of the truce have said they were beaten and humiliated by Israeli soldiers before being freed. Beatings grew more intense and frequent after the start of the war, but testimonies of prisoners over the decades have pointed to a longstanding pattern of beatings, torture and abuse of prisoners. Since the start of the war, rights groups have reported that the Israeli Prison Service has also considerably restricted water, food, medical care and communal items for prisoners and has restricted or altogether halted family and lawyer visits. This means that Palestinian prisoners have effectively lost some of the limited privileges that they had earned through years of campaigning and hunger strikes in prisons that are now severely overcrowded as well. How does Israel treat its child inmates?​ Hundreds of children, some as young as nine years old, have been detained by Israeli forces in what many have said represents a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Children fare no better than adults in Israeli prisons, and an array of abuses against them has been documented. The rights group Save the Children said in a report in July that 86 percent of children are beaten in Israeli detention, 69 percent are strip-searched and 42 percent are injured during their arrests. They have suffered gunshot wounds and broken bones among other injuries. Some children have reported violence of a sexual nature, and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the London-based child rights organisation said. Palestinian children are “the only children in the world who are systematically prosecuted in military courts” and an estimated 10,000 have been held in the Israeli military detention system over the past 20 years, according to the group.​

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Some additonal links, including to Adameer:

 

[Anna Bijou]

The University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League School which has condoned and permitted protests by pro-Palestinians calling for the genocide of Jews, has been crushed financially since then and has just lost a $100 million donation, which is on top of many other losses of donations:

Elizabeth Magill: UPenn loses $100m donation after House antisemitism testimony

A major University of Pennsylvania donor withdraws grant after Congress hearing about antisemitism on campus.

www.bbc.com

It is one thing to post stupidities on the Internet anonymously where there are no repercussions. It is quite another to allow this type of thing to play out in the public forum, and deeply insult many Jewish donors to many Ivy League schools. These Universities have now been crushed in their wallets, where it counts. Take their money away and you WILL change their behavior.

What's really stupid is changing the definition of words to claim anyone is claiming the genocide of Jews.

Imagine being so weak in justifications for your beliefs, you make people who don't agree criminals!


It's depraved to do this to distract from the fact that Israel IS committing one in Gaza, with the US help.

How Israel robbed five infants of a chance at life or a dignified death​

Fucking HORRIFYING,

‎Mohamed Al Masri || محمّد المصري‎ on Instagram‎: "Lifeless bodies scattered on the ground.. This is the heinous crime of the vicious and monstrous occupation. From the massacre of the Abu Salah family today in the shelters for displaced people in t

74K likes, 4,956 comments - mohamed.h.masri on December 7, 2023‎: "Lifeless bodies scattered on the ground.. This is the heinous crime of the vicious and monstrous occupation. From the massacre of the Abu Salah family today in the shelters for displaced people in the northern Gaza Strip.. The...

www.instagram.com

1000 children have lost limbs

Bisan Owda on Instagram: "1000 Children, 1000 story, 1000 Questions and 1000 fears."

282K likes, 3,722 comments - wizard_bisan1 on December 8, 2023: "1000 Children, 1000 story, 1000 Questions and 1000 fears.".

www.instagram.com

Will probably be deleted, but original one on instagram:

Warning:L graphic video of real life courtesy of Israel and the US:

I'm so disgusted by the bs of people trying to deflect from what's going on.

 

[Anna Bijou]

This video provides an excellent summary of the Israeli perspective on the war against Hamas. Obviously, I agree with it, because I embrace the same civilized values of freedom, democracy, tolerance, progress, and peace that the Palestinians have continually rejected since the formation of Israel in 1948. As the narrator says: "The people of Gaza are not choosing terror because they are poor; they are poor because they choose terror."

Gross. Seriously, wtf is this.

Especially while people are watching, in horror, Israel committing genocide. Like, have some decency. Your stupid, long debunked crap is of no use to anyone. It's literally so stupid it's not worth anyone watching.

You have to be some kind of sociopath to blame civilians for their own genocide.

Everyone is looking at the US and Israel - the vast majority of the world is disgusted with your warmongering genocidal madness.

Palestinians are losing their lives but y'all have lost your humanity, your goddamn minds and any credibility. ICC is the only place Genocide Joe’ and the Israeli war criminals belong.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining the fucking propaganda that you're using because even if the Palestinians refused 100 offers and that all of these offers were amazing, it would still not justify this fucking bloob bath. It is unbelievable people would be trying to imply that's a justification and have the audacity to call themselves civilized. (And if you're going to argue that civilians supported Hamas, or voted for them, even if we ignore the legitimacy of those claims and take them as valid, then please note that you would be arguing the same as applicable to Israeli civilians, and providing a defense for hamas attacking civilians on Oct 7th. Please make sure that's an argument you want to make. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, is the expression, no?)


Israel, as usual refuses to allow the UN to do independent investigation on the allegations and everything that happened since Oct 7th. That, of course, is telling in itself. But investigations are still done without Israel cooperation.

Just released the findings for one such investigation regarding journalists that were killed early on in Lebanon. The results are unsurprising. The idf targeted journalists in Lebanon and murdered them.



56 Palestinians journalists in Gaza have been murdered by the IDF. Many of them have had their families murdered as well. (Sherif Mansour, committee to protect journalists
Over 110 people working for UNWRA have been killed
Israel has attacked, rendered unusable almost all hospitals.
Medical personnel has been killed, arrested.
IDF left 5 newborns to DIE and decompose -You think about that one!
Countless ambulances have been destroyed and attacked, killing first responders and injured civilians
IDF has attacked schools sheltering civilians
IDF has targeted mosques and also a Christian church that was the 3rd oldest in the world and was packed with people taking shelter. Church was destroyed and 100+ murdered.

This is literally just off the top of my head. Would you like me to continue?

Civilized, my ass. Only if I play the game and change the definition of the word like genocide apologists love to do.



This is some mentally unwell shit :

‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza​

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an artificial intelligence system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza, a +972 and Local Call investigation reveals.​

Nothing will ever make the attack on civilians from Oct 7th ok. But one thing that's obvious, is that even hamas probably had no idea, Israel completly failed badly on so many levels, to protect its civilians. We now know the army and government had TONS of intelligence and ignored warnings. Failed

For the record, let's be clear that Hamas, as an organization, has a legitimate, legal right to exist, as people under occupation have a legal right to self defense and to RESIST. However, we should all agree that attacking civilians is a crime. But as an organization, they are allowed to exist. Israel and the US have a far longer list of war crimes committed, so if you want to go according to this criteria, you should designate both their armies and governments as terrorist organizations like hamas. Or provide a logical explanation why they shouldn't be.


BTW - from yesterday, as reported in Haaretz, Iraeli newspaper: Israel FAILED To Warn Music Festival Organizers Of Suspected Oct. 7 Attack

We also know some (we don't know how many but its not an insignificant number) of Israeli casualties were caused by the IDF themselves.Tthese details continue to trickle into Israeli news and the full extent will only be figured out later but the Hannibal doctrine was used in some cases and that is confirmed by multiple idf statements, as well as civilians who survived and who were taken hostage and say they were almost killed by the idf, in Gaza and while they were being transported into Gaza! The idf injured, probably also killed some hostages in Gaza (links coming).

Freed Israeli Hostages TEAR INTO Netanyahu For Incompetence In Leaked Audio​

 

[Anna Bijou]

Part 1: Israeli forces shot their own civilians, kibbutz survivor says​

Part 2: Israeli teen ”burned completely” by Israeli tank fire at kibbutz​

"Mass Hannibal" — We killed Israelis on 7 October, says Israeli air force colonel​

We also know many of the claims are lies, and have been confirmed as lies by Israel although they continue to be used and repeated by Israel, the US and the awful media. Because I know the media is still repeating some of these lies or never went back and retracted them, let me list some of those lies (by no means comprehensive)

Beheaded babies
Babies in ovens
Burned babies
Dozens of kids bound together and burned
Babies hung on clotheslines
Pregnant woman killed, stomach cut open and foetus removed and killed

ALL NOT TRUE.

Hamas headquarters is under/a bunch of different hospitals?

Nope

All these Hamas is ISIS spin (hamas hates Isis btw, geniuses) that were pushed with these claims to support are actually Israeli imagination. You sit with that. You tell me what kind of disturbed people think of these lies? Cause I think that's messed up.

Why do they need an ad campaign?

This is what Israelis are into right now:

Making a montage of atrocities, but refusing to release original footage for investigations?
With hours of footage from dozens of go pros, tell me how all that's useable is a 46min montage? Don't get me wrong, 15 seconds is too long but no one can validate, people have been ending up with contradictory memories of what they saw, so it's pure manipulation and propaganda. But with hours and hours of footage, they only got 46min out of curated atrocities shown without any context and not providing the originals for journalists to investigate?

Using statements of fighters who were arrested when Israel tortures prisoners as part of interrogations?
None of what is obtained through torture can be considered useful.

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[Anna Bijou]

.​

.​

.But if we go to the argument I'm assuming you think you're making.​

And you want to keep saying the Palestinians didn't try non violent protest?
Met with guns.

Political resolution?
Sabotaged by Israel and the US.

And definitely not the first time. Just as recently as 2021:

Israeli arrogance thwarted a Palestinian political path. October 7 revealed the cost​

** If you'd like to read the 2017 Hamas document, it's here. **

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Now do you want to tell me there was no opportunity for political solutions? Why would Israel and the US completely refuse to even speak to them? And you want me to believe they both don't carry a huge share of responsibility for the attack?


Israel and the US were given a political solution to Hamas violence. In spite of all the times these two have screwed Palestinians, lied and been shit buckets, one can only assume Hamas had somewhat given up after several tactics had failed (their own armed struggle and the popular movement of non violent protests "The March of return", which was met with violence from the Israelis, who killed and severely injured). Palestinians are not allowed to resist their dispossession, their abuse, their occupation. In ANY way.

They offered to end the armed resistance.
They offered to step aside and not attempt leadership roles.

What tf more do Israel and the US want?

It's so dishonest, it's just disgusting. What's even more disgusting is the failure of any of our media to report honestly and fairly. So don't give me that superiority bs.


Former Israeli peace negotiator Daniel Levy:

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Where are you people when the settlers and army are terrorizing, killing, attacking Palestinians? Where's your pontificating about "civilized" when the settlers STEAL homes and lands? If you're not going to say anything about that, why do you think you have any right to say anything? What makes you believe your intentionally ignorant take is worth anything?

‘It’s like 1948’: Israel cleanses vast West Bank region of nearly all Palestinians​

Settler Violence Escalates in the West Bank Despite US Pressure​

Israelis don't give a shit.

‘Wait for the Great Nakba’: Inside the West Bank’s surging settler violence​

Civilized, you say?

Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir arms Israeli settlers in occupied West Bank​

​

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Why don't you pay attention to people from your 'civilized' country talk about just how "civilized" Israel is in the treatment of Palestinians. :

Those Who Blame Palestinians For Their Plight Have Never Been to Gaza or the West Bank

 

[CaptRenault]

This editorial from Friday's Wall Street Journal exposes the true face of the anti-Israel movement...as one can see in the last several, hysterical posts above.

Opinion | The True Face of the Anti-Israel Movement

The leader of the Council on American-Islamic Relations celebrated Oct. 7, in his own words.

www.wsj.com

The response in anti-Israel circles to Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre has been clarifying. Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), the tip of the spear on U.S. campuses, early on called the slaughter “a historic win for Palestinian resistance.”

The tune hasn’t changed, even from the leaders pressuring President Biden. Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), celebrated Oct. 7 at an American Muslims for Palestine convention on Nov. 24. A damning excerpt was publicized Thursday by the Middle East Media Research Institute.

American Muslims for Palestine then took down the full video, and Mr. Awad now claims a “hate website selected remarks from my speech out of context and spliced them together to create a completely false meaning.” But we got the video before Mr. Awad’s ally hid it, and here’s what CAIR’s leader had to say:

“The people of Gaza only decided to break the siege, the walls of the concentration camp, on Oct. 7. And yes, I was happy to see people breaking the siege and throwing down the shackles of their own land, and walk free into their land, that they were not allowed to walk in. And yes, the people of Gaza have the right to self-defense, have the right to defend themselves. And yes, Israel, as an occupying power, does not have that right to self-defense.”
The crowd applauded, and not a word in Mr. Awad’s speech qualified his pleasure with Oct. 7, justified as “self-defense.”

Democrats and media have long treated CAIR as a primary political spokesman for Muslim Americans. In late October the White House invited Mr. Awad to convey Muslim concerns about the war to the President. In May the Biden Administration included CAIR as a partner in its Strategy to Counter Antisemitism. The White House has now removed CAIR from that document and condemned Mr. Awad’s remarks.

On stage Mr. Awad accused Israel of buying “corrupt members of Congress,” concluding, “We have to free so many people from the shackles of AIPAC [the American Israel Public Affairs Committee] and its affiliates who have sold the soul of America.” Complaining of Mr. Biden’s betrayal, Mr. Awad asked, “For how much? It is for how much AIPAC and its affiliates have been controlling the U.S. government and the U.S. Congress. . . . Unless we free Congress, we will not be able to free Palestine.”

There it is, the hoary conspiracy that justice—however defined—could be achieved if only the Jews weren’t secretly shackling and manipulating the powers that be. Maybe that’s easier for Mr. Awad to accept than the truth: The American people support Israel and oppose Palestinian terrorism.

But CAIR and its allies have influence, and Mr. Awad said the White House had begun to listen. “When we say ‘if there is no cease-fire, there will be no votes for you in 2024 elections,’” he said, “we started to see the tone changing—and the position changing.”

Mr. Awad’s co-panelist was Osama Abuirshaid, director of American Muslims for Palestine, the leading sponsor of SJP on campus and an organizer of anti-Israel protests across the country. Mr. Abuirshaid told a rally Dec. 1: “What they alleged that happened on Oct. 7 turned out to be a lie. Most of the [Israeli] civilians were killed by their own army.” Will Democrats bend on Israel to people like this?

Near the end of Mr. Awad’s speech, he said, “I ask young people: Be wise. You are not in Palestine. You are not in Gaza. The language there doesn’t work here.” You know, less on the Jews and violence, and more on human rights. He should have taken his own advice.

CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad At American Muslims For Palestine (AMP) Convention: I Was Happy To See The People Of Gaza Break The Siege On October 7; They Were Victorious; The People Of Gaza Have The Right To Self-Defense – Israel Does Not

Nihad Awad, the executive director of CAIR spoke at the American Muslims for Palestine (AMP) convention in Chicago on No...

www.memri.org

 

[CaptRenault]

Why is Israel responding to the massive terrorist attack of October 7 with the full force of its highly capable military?

There is no mystery or doubt. This is why:

As General Sherman said:

 

[EagerBeaver]

It's kind of fundamental that when a sovereign nation is attacked and invaded and its citizens killed, it has not only a right but a duty to consider it an act of War and respond with acts of war in order to defend itself and prevent such occurrences from happening again. It's no different than when the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor. Although Pearl Harbor was ostensibly a military target (unlike the unarmed civilians raped and killed by Hamas), many civilians and non-combatants were killed as well. The United States was just as negligent if not more so than Israel was on October 7 for allowing Pearl Harbor to happen in 1941, but it had no choice but to go to war with Japan and defeat it in a war that would take almost 4 years.