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Hamas & Israel

EagerBeaver

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The University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League School which has condoned and permitted protests by pro-Palestinians calling for the genocide of Jews, has been crushed financially since then and has just lost a $100 million donation, which is on top of many other losses of donations:
It is one thing to post stupidities on the Internet anonymously where there are no repercussions. It is quite another to allow this type of thing to play out in the public forum, and deeply insult many Jewish donors to many Ivy League schools. These Universities have now been crushed in their wallets, where it counts. Take their money away and you WILL change their behavior.

There is no doubt that Liz Magill, President of the University of Pennsylvania, will be fired or forced to resign over this:
In truth, I think University Presidents have a very, very difficult job with handling the protests and counterprotests. There was a very bad situation at Cooper Union in New York City where Jewish students were locked in to the school's library during a "Free Palestine" rally:

The problem was allowing and condoning the situation in the first place. The solution to this issue is to have more precise Codes of Conduct that the students sign off on, permitting peaceful protest consistent with the US Constitution, but forbidding violent rhetoric and hate which constitute "fighting words" that are NOT protected by the US Constitution's 1st Amendment and never have been. Liz Magill's successor should make it his or her first order of business to revise the Code of Conduct in question.

As an attorney, I have been asked to draft a Code of Conduct, due to a bullying incident at a private dance school as between several young girls. There are plenty of Codes of Conduct at plenty of schools, disallowing such conduct and making it a ground for expulsion from school. I think we will be seeing students held increasingly accountable with revised Codes of Conduct and they will be aggressively and forcefully expelled when they behave like some of these protesters have behaved. The universities mentioned in the above article are now dealing with a SEVERE loss of funding, not to mention a Congressional investigation. Several grant programs at Harvard have had to be shut down as a result. The consequences will be termination of the leadership of the universities that lost the funding by the Board of Trustees, new leadership blood, and new rules that hold students accountable for hateful and wrongful speech and protests.

Ironically, that's exactly what the Israelis are seeking to accomplish with this war- change the leadership equation.
 
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Anna Bijou

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Sounds amazing, man! Well, I guess....?



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Maybe as quick google search before posting would help avoid posting something verifiably false.

But thank you for bringing up a great point. It's a perfect example to highlight the core issue:
Palestinians have no rights, certainly not equal rights!

Which leads to another question.

As a citizen of Israel, she doesn't have to worry about getting kidnapped in the middle of the night, refused a lawyer, abused physically, verbally, and sometimes sexually. She'd never be denied medical care, or food, kept in solitary confinement for extended periods, experience sleep deprivation (both considered torture) interrogated for hours and days, to eventually be made to sign a "statement" written in Hebrew, a language they don't understand. She'll never be kept hostage by Israel for an unknown amount of time (weeks, months, years - whatever they decide).

As an Israeli, she would be going through the civil system, while Palestinians are the only children to be arrested and kept hostage under the military court system, which allows Israel to keep hostages under administrative detention, meaning they can be held without charges for as long as their captors decide.

If their captors eventually decide to charge them, they'll be unable to defend themselves because the documents, evidence, or anything relating to the charges will be kept secret for "security" reasons. The conviction rate is 99.4%, which means they almost always negotiate a plea, which also means a huge number of convicted "terrorists", like the ones that were released in the exchange of hostages, never actually committed any crime, or their "crime" was to throw rocks at tanks, participating in a protest..





Obvio-0bvio said:
Though I sincerely hope that Hamas is engaging in this hostage exchange out of genuine compassion and a desire for political diplomacy..

The true intentions for the hostages are really simple. I've checked our media and it honestly couldn't suck more than it does, if it managed to leave this out: the hostages are meant to get Palestinian hostages out of Israeli detention. It's also meant for people to ask themselves, eh why are there so many? Many people did start asking what was going on.




Jailed without charge: How Israel holds thousands of Palestinian prisoners

Israel has called Palestinians released under a truce with Hamas violent ‘terrorists.’ But most haven’t been charged.



As Palestinian prisoners were being released last week, Israel imposed a ban on celebrations by their family members. “Expressions of joy”, National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said, “are equivalent to backing terrorism”.

Israel has presented imprisoned Palestinians as “terrorists” and has subjected many of the detainees to abuse.

But of the 300 Palestinian women and children whom Israel has identified for potential release as part of the humanitarian pause between Israel and Hamas, nearly 80 percent were not even formally charged.

An overwhelming majority of Palestinian prisoners were arrested under a quasi-judicial process known as administrative detention, under which Palestinians are initially jailed for six months. Their detentions can then be repeatedly extended for an indefinite period without charge or trial.

Most Palestinians, including children, are tried in military courts and handed lengthy sentences in what critics call sham military trials because in many cases Palestinians are deprived of defence lawyers and due process. In comparison, Israeli citizens are tried in civil courts, highlighting the two-tier justice system that discriminates against Palestinians.





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Who is on the list?


The vast majority of the Palestinians – 233 prisoners out of the 300 – on Israel’s release list have not been formally charged and were held as administrative detainees. An overwhelming majority of them are children. The youngest is 14.

Almost three-quarters of them are from the occupied West Bank, which has seen a surge of arrests since the start of Israel’s war on Gaza on October 7. The West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem had already seen a spike in Israeli raids this year even before the war.

The longest serving prisoner among the 300 has been held for 102 months, or eight-and-a-half years. The most recent prisoner was arrested two months ago.

Nearly half of the prisoners have no affiliation with any Palestinian political or armed group. Others are believed to be affiliated with Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

...

Prisoners may be held under administrative detention indefinitely. During that time, which could span years, the prisoners, their families and their lawyers may remain in the dark as to what the prisoner has been charged with and what evidence there is against them.

Israel has arrested an estimated one million Palestinians since occupying East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in 1967, according to a United Nations report released last year. A considerable number of them are believed to be administrative detainees.

...

When charges are filed, they regularly include “terrorist” activities, which could include acts against Israeli soldiers or settlers, and “incitement”, which includes influencing public opinion. Traffic violations or being in Israel illegally for work also bring Palestinians into the military judicial system, which has a conviction rate of 99 percent.

In contrast to Palestinians, Israeli settlers arrested in the West Bank are tried in civilian courts inside Israel. This practice has in effect created two legal systems, which human rights groups have called discriminatory and a form of “apartheid”.





How are Palestinians treated in prison?


Some of the Palestinian prisoners who have been released as part of the truce have said they were beaten and humiliated by Israeli soldiers before being freed.

Beatings grew more intense and frequent after the start of the war, but testimonies of prisoners over the decades have pointed to a longstanding pattern of beatings, torture and abuse of prisoners.

Since the start of the war, rights groups have reported that the Israeli Prison Service has also considerably restricted water, food, medical care and communal items for prisoners and has restricted or altogether halted family and lawyer visits.

This means that Palestinian prisoners have effectively lost some of the limited privileges that they had earned through years of campaigning and hunger strikes in prisons that are now severely overcrowded as well.







How does Israel treat its child inmates?


Hundreds of children, some as young as nine years old, have been detained by Israeli forces in what many have said represents a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Children fare no better than adults in Israeli prisons, and an array of abuses against them has been documented.

The rights group Save the Children said in a report in July that 86 percent of children are beaten in Israeli detention, 69 percent are strip-searched and 42 percent are injured during their arrests. They have suffered gunshot wounds and broken bones among other injuries.

Some children have reported violence of a sexual nature, and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the London-based child rights organisation said.


Palestinian children are “the only children in the world who are systematically prosecuted in military courts” and an estimated 10,000 have been held in the Israeli military detention system over the past 20 years, according to the group.









Some additonal links, including to Adameer:


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Anna Bijou

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The University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League School which has condoned and permitted protests by pro-Palestinians calling for the genocide of Jews, has been crushed financially since then and has just lost a $100 million donation, which is on top of many other losses of donations:
It is one thing to post stupidities on the Internet anonymously where there are no repercussions. It is quite another to allow this type of thing to play out in the public forum, and deeply insult many Jewish donors to many Ivy League schools. These Universities have now been crushed in their wallets, where it counts. Take their money away and you WILL change their behavior.


What's really stupid is changing the definition of words to claim anyone is claiming the genocide of Jews.





Imagine being so weak in justifications for your beliefs, you make people who don't agree criminals!


It's depraved to do this to distract from the fact that Israel IS committing one in Gaza, with the US help.




How Israel robbed five infants of a chance at life or a dignified death​


Fucking HORRIFYING,







1000 children have lost limbs




Will probably be deleted, but original one on instagram:

Warning:L graphic video of real life courtesy of Israel and the US:




I'm so disgusted by the bs of people trying to deflect from what's going on.



 
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Anna Bijou

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This video provides an excellent summary of the Israeli perspective on the war against Hamas. Obviously, I agree with it, because I embrace the same civilized values of freedom, democracy, tolerance, progress, and peace that the Palestinians have continually rejected since the formation of Israel in 1948. As the narrator says: "The people of Gaza are not choosing terror because they are poor; they are poor because they choose terror."




Gross. Seriously, wtf is this.

Especially while people are watching, in horror, Israel committing genocide. Like, have some decency. Your stupid, long debunked crap is of no use to anyone. It's literally so stupid it's not worth anyone watching.

You have to be some kind of sociopath to blame civilians for their own genocide.





Everyone is looking at the US and Israel - the vast majority of the world is disgusted with your warmongering genocidal madness.

Palestinians are losing their lives but y'all have lost your humanity, your goddamn minds and any credibility. ICC is the only place Genocide Joe’ and the Israeli war criminals belong.




I'm not going to waste my time explaining the fucking propaganda that you're using because even if the Palestinians refused 100 offers and that all of these offers were amazing, it would still not justify this fucking bloob bath. It is unbelievable people would be trying to imply that's a justification and have the audacity to call themselves civilized. (And if you're going to argue that civilians supported Hamas, or voted for them, even if we ignore the legitimacy of those claims and take them as valid, then please note that you would be arguing the same as applicable to Israeli civilians, and providing a defense for hamas attacking civilians on Oct 7th. Please make sure that's an argument you want to make. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, is the expression, no?)


Israel, as usual refuses to allow the UN to do independent investigation on the allegations and everything that happened since Oct 7th. That, of course, is telling in itself. But investigations are still done without Israel cooperation.

Just released the findings for one such investigation regarding journalists that were killed early on in Lebanon. The results are unsurprising. The idf targeted journalists in Lebanon and murdered them.



56 Palestinians journalists in Gaza have been murdered by the IDF. Many of them have had their families murdered as well. (Sherif Mansour, committee to protect journalists:)
Over 110 people working for UNWRA have been killed
Israel has attacked, rendered unusable almost all hospitals.
Medical personnel has been killed, arrested.
IDF left 5 newborns to DIE and decompose -You think about that one!
Countless ambulances have been destroyed and attacked, killing first responders and injured civilians
IDF has attacked schools sheltering civilians
IDF has targeted mosques and also a Christian church that was the 3rd oldest in the world and was packed with people taking shelter. Church was destroyed and 100+ murdered.

This is literally just off the top of my head. Would you like me to continue?

Civilized, my ass. Only if I play the game and change the definition of the word like genocide apologists love to do.



This is some mentally unwell shit :

‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an artificial intelligence system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza, a +972 and Local Call investigation reveals.​



Nothing will ever make the attack on civilians from Oct 7th ok. But one thing that's obvious, is that even hamas probably had no idea, Israel completly failed badly on so many levels, to protect its civilians. We now know the army and government had TONS of intelligence and ignored warnings. Failed

For the record, let's be clear that Hamas, as an organization, has a legitimate, legal right to exist, as people under occupation have a legal right to self defense and to RESIST. However, we should all agree that attacking civilians is a crime. But as an organization, they are allowed to exist. Israel and the US have a far longer list of war crimes committed, so if you want to go according to this criteria, you should designate both their armies and governments as terrorist organizations like hamas. Or provide a logical explanation why they shouldn't be.


BTW - from yesterday, as reported in Haaretz, Iraeli newspaper: Israel FAILED To Warn Music Festival Organizers Of Suspected Oct. 7 Attack






We also know some (we don't know how many but its not an insignificant number) of Israeli casualties were caused by the IDF themselves.Tthese details continue to trickle into Israeli news and the full extent will only be figured out later but the Hannibal doctrine was used in some cases and that is confirmed by multiple idf statements, as well as civilians who survived and who were taken hostage and say they were almost killed by the idf, in Gaza and while they were being transported into Gaza! The idf injured, probably also killed some hostages in Gaza (links coming).

Freed Israeli Hostages TEAR INTO Netanyahu For Incompetence In Leaked Audio​

 

Anna Bijou

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Part 1: Israeli forces shot their own civilians, kibbutz survivor says​



Part 2: Israeli teen ”burned completely” by Israeli tank fire at kibbutz​



"Mass Hannibal" — We killed Israelis on 7 October, says Israeli air force colonel​





We also know many of the claims are lies, and have been confirmed as lies by Israel although they continue to be used and repeated by Israel, the US and the awful media. Because I know the media is still repeating some of these lies or never went back and retracted them, let me list some of those lies (by no means comprehensive)

Beheaded babies
Babies in ovens
Burned babies
Dozens of kids bound together and burned
Babies hung on clotheslines
Pregnant woman killed, stomach cut open and foetus removed and killed

ALL NOT TRUE.

Hamas headquarters is under/a bunch of different hospitals?

Nope

All these Hamas is ISIS spin (hamas hates Isis btw, geniuses) that were pushed with these claims to support are actually Israeli imagination. You sit with that. You tell me what kind of disturbed people think of these lies? Cause I think that's messed up.

Why do they need an ad campaign?

This is what Israelis are into right now:

Making a montage of atrocities, but refusing to release original footage for investigations?
With hours of footage from dozens of go pros, tell me how all that's useable is a 46min montage? Don't get me wrong, 15 seconds is too long but no one can validate, people have been ending up with contradictory memories of what they saw, so it's pure manipulation and propaganda. But with hours and hours of footage, they only got 46min out of curated atrocities shown without any context and not providing the originals for journalists to investigate?

Using statements of fighters who were arrested when Israel tortures prisoners as part of interrogations?
None of what is obtained through torture can be considered useful.





















 
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Anna Bijou

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.​

.​

.But if we go to the argument I'm assuming you think you're making.​



And you want to keep saying the Palestinians didn't try non violent protest?
Met with guns.

Political resolution?
Sabotaged by Israel and the US.

And definitely not the first time. Just as recently as 2021:


Israeli arrogance thwarted a Palestinian political path. October 7 revealed the cost


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** If you'd like to read the 2017 Hamas document, it's here. **





Now do you want to tell me there was no opportunity for political solutions? Why would Israel and the US completely refuse to even speak to them? And you want me to believe they both don't carry a huge share of responsibility for the attack?


Israel and the US were given a political solution to Hamas violence. In spite of all the times these two have screwed Palestinians, lied and been shit buckets, one can only assume Hamas had somewhat given up after several tactics had failed (their own armed struggle and the popular movement of non violent protests "The March of return", which was met with violence from the Israelis, who killed and severely injured). Palestinians are not allowed to resist their dispossession, their abuse, their occupation. In ANY way.

They offered to end the armed resistance.
They offered to step aside and not attempt leadership roles.

What tf more do Israel and the US want?

It's so dishonest, it's just disgusting. What's even more disgusting is the failure of any of our media to report honestly and fairly. So don't give me that superiority bs.


Former Israeli peace negotiator Daniel Levy:







Where are you people when the settlers and army are terrorizing, killing, attacking Palestinians? Where's your pontificating about "civilized" when the settlers STEAL homes and lands? If you're not going to say anything about that, why do you think you have any right to say anything? What makes you believe your intentionally ignorant take is worth anything?

‘It’s like 1948’: Israel cleanses vast West Bank region of nearly all Palestinians


Settler Violence Escalates in the West Bank Despite US Pressure​






Israelis don't give a shit.

‘Wait for the Great Nakba’: Inside the West Bank’s surging settler violence​





Civilized, you say?

Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir arms Israeli settlers in occupied West Bank







Why don't you pay attention to people from your 'civilized' country talk about just how "civilized" Israel is in the treatment of Palestinians. :





Those Who Blame Palestinians For Their Plight Have Never Been to Gaza or the West Bank

 
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CaptRenault

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This editorial from Friday's Wall Street Journal exposes the true face of the anti-Israel movement...as one can see in the last several, hysterical posts above. :rolleyes:


The response in anti-Israel circles to Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre has been clarifying. Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), the tip of the spear on U.S. campuses, early on called the slaughter “a historic win for Palestinian resistance.”

The tune hasn’t changed, even from the leaders pressuring President Biden. Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), celebrated Oct. 7 at an American Muslims for Palestine convention on Nov. 24. A damning excerpt was publicized Thursday by the Middle East Media Research Institute.

American Muslims for Palestine then took down the full video, and Mr. Awad now claims a “hate website selected remarks from my speech out of context and spliced them together to create a completely false meaning.” But we got the video before Mr. Awad’s ally hid it, and here’s what CAIR’s leader had to say:

“The people of Gaza only decided to break the siege, the walls of the concentration camp, on Oct. 7. And yes, I was happy to see people breaking the siege and throwing down the shackles of their own land, and walk free into their land, that they were not allowed to walk in. And yes, the people of Gaza have the right to self-defense, have the right to defend themselves. And yes, Israel, as an occupying power, does not have that right to self-defense.”
The crowd applauded, and not a word in Mr. Awad’s speech qualified his pleasure with Oct. 7, justified as “self-defense.”


Democrats and media have long treated CAIR as a primary political spokesman for Muslim Americans. In late October the White House invited Mr. Awad to convey Muslim concerns about the war to the President. In May the Biden Administration included CAIR as a partner in its Strategy to Counter Antisemitism. The White House has now removed CAIR from that document and condemned Mr. Awad’s remarks.

On stage Mr. Awad accused Israel of buying “corrupt members of Congress,” concluding, “We have to free so many people from the shackles of AIPAC [the American Israel Public Affairs Committee] and its affiliates who have sold the soul of America.” Complaining of Mr. Biden’s betrayal, Mr. Awad asked, “For how much? It is for how much AIPAC and its affiliates have been controlling the U.S. government and the U.S. Congress. . . . Unless we free Congress, we will not be able to free Palestine.”

There it is, the hoary conspiracy that justice—however defined—could be achieved if only the Jews weren’t secretly shackling and manipulating the powers that be. Maybe that’s easier for Mr. Awad to accept than the truth: The American people support Israel and oppose Palestinian terrorism.

But CAIR and its allies have influence, and Mr. Awad said the White House had begun to listen. “When we say ‘if there is no cease-fire, there will be no votes for you in 2024 elections,’” he said, “we started to see the tone changing—and the position changing.”

Mr. Awad’s co-panelist was Osama Abuirshaid, director of American Muslims for Palestine, the leading sponsor of SJP on campus and an organizer of anti-Israel protests across the country. Mr. Abuirshaid told a rally Dec. 1: “What they alleged that happened on Oct. 7 turned out to be a lie. Most of the [Israeli] civilians were killed by their own army.” Will Democrats bend on Israel to people like this?

Near the end of Mr. Awad’s speech, he said, “I ask young people: Be wise. You are not in Palestine. You are not in Gaza. The language there doesn’t work here.” You know, less on the Jews and violence, and more on human rights. He should have taken his own advice.


 

CaptRenault

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Why is Israel responding to the massive terrorist attack of October 7 with the full force of its highly capable military?

There is no mystery or doubt. This is why:



As General Sherman said:

quote-war-is-the-remedy-that-our-enemies-have-chosen-and-i-say-let-us-give-them-all-they-want-...jpg
 

EagerBeaver

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It's kind of fundamental that when a sovereign nation is attacked and invaded and its citizens killed, it has not only a right but a duty to consider it an act of War and respond with acts of war in order to defend itself and prevent such occurrences from happening again. It's no different than when the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor. Although Pearl Harbor was ostensibly a military target (unlike the unarmed civilians raped and killed by Hamas), many civilians and non-combatants were killed as well. The United States was just as negligent if not more so than Israel was on October 7 for allowing Pearl Harbor to happen in 1941, but it had no choice but to go to war with Japan and defeat it in a war that would take almost 4 years.
 

CaptRenault

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...and continue analogy with WWII, anyone who is troubled by civilian casualties has to pray for a swift Israeli victory as there is no other way to minimize them
MMX, great point. Hamas and its many supporters in Gaza made a huge miscalculation in plotting their barbarous terror attack on Israel. I don't think they anticipated getting into a full scale war with the IDF as a result of the attack.

But anyone with a good understanding of the history of war should have known that Israel had to respond with the full force of its formidable military. Neither side wanted this war, but now that it's here, an Israeli victory is the best way to end it.

Once again, I refer to my favorite philosopher of war, Union General William Tecumseh Sherman, who made these statements about the best way to end the cruelty of war:

Quotation-William-Tecumseh-Sherman-War-is-cruelty-There-is-no-use-trying-to-reform-27-1-0116.jpg


quote-you-might-as-well-appeal-against-the-thunder-storm-as-against-these-terrible-hardships-w...jpg
 
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EagerBeaver

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Magill Resigns:
Meanwhile, we will now see whether this other dingbat is removed, who got "caught up" in "an extended, combative exchange about policies and procedures":
GIVE ME A BREAK! She was "caught up" in "an extended, combative exchange about policies and procedures"? In other words, she is saying she does not know how to think on her feet. I have made a living thinking on my feet for the past 30 years, and those who are unable to do that in my profession do not last. So I really do not have too much sympathy. This is Darwin Theory at work, nothing more, nothing less. It is kind of shocking to me that we have such morons running Ivy League Schools.
 
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Sic92

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To this conflict there is only one solution: stop the occupation. You guys are gas-lighting, pushing fallacies and propagandas yet are totally failing at acknowledging the deep core of this issue; the zionist entity is illegitimately occupying a territory who does not belong to it since 1948. Needless to talk about Hamas and other strawman rhetoric. If you stand with Israël, fine. Then give them a bit of the respective territories you live in so they can leave the Palestinians alone and in peace. Otherwise, Palestine is 100 % right in its self-defense against a brutal colonizer who is infact nothing without the support of the major Western countries.
 

EagerBeaver

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who is in fact nothing without the support of the major Western countries.
Completely false. Were you on the battlefields in the 1948 and 1967 conflicts? I have spoken to people who were. It is a huge fiction that Israel won those wars because of the "support of the major Western countries." Israel defeated a number of different Arab countries armed to the teeth by the USSR in those conflicts, not just Palestine which has no army. Here is why they lost if you actually lived the history or paid a whiff of attention to what actually happened:

1. The assembled Arab armies of many countries were in both conflicts outmaneuvered and out-strategized by Israel despite the Arab nations' overwhelming superiority of troops and weapons- Israel destroyed most of the Soviet supplied weapons and planes at the outset of the 1967 conflict and they could not be used.
2. Completely incompetent military leadership of the Arab countries which expected swift and massive victory and destruction of Israel, and did not count on stiff resistance and suffering massive casualties. When they did, they in many cases ran and scattered.
3. The 1967 War was the armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq on one side with vastly superior numbers and tanks supplied by the USSR, yet they suffered over 10 times the casualties and lost 10 times the weapons. Look at the documented superiority of weapons and numbers by the Arabs. Why did they lose in SIX DAYS? All of the above: lack of preparedness for the swift attack on the air fields, false belief that their military was superior and it would be over quickly for them (pride), shock and incompetent battlefield protocol when it wasn't, and incompetent military and political leadership. In other words, some of the usual reasons why wars are lost historically.
Please stop with your revisionist history nonsense.
 
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minutemenX

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the zionist entity is illegitimately occupying a territory who does not belong to it since 1948.
From your posts it is clear that “stop the occupation” means elimination of Israel as the Jewish state. It would never happen. Most Arab states have already realized that existence of Israel is the permanent political reality. With the same logic you can ask for the elimination of USA and Canada and many other countries. So good luck in wasting your life.
 

EagerBeaver

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With the same logic you can ask for the elimination of USA and Canada and many other countries. So good luck in wasting your life.
You could apply the same logic to most countries in the world. Most nations didn't spontaneously come into existence or become nations in any way that was fair. We are being asked to rewrite history and start from scratch and it's not going to happen. I personally believe in a 2 state solution along the lines of the UN Resolution in 1947, but it's not going to happen so long as the Palestinian leadership's Mantra is death to Israel.
 

CaptRenault

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Here is a good response (below) to the frequently heard claim that Jews illegitimately "occupy" a place called "Palestine".

Israel has NOT occupied Gaza since 2005. After leaving Gaza, there was hope that the Gazans might choose to live normal lives and use the hundreds of millions of dollars they receive in foreign aid from many countries and organizations to build a normal, peaceful society that would show that Palestinians could co-exist with Jews.

Instead, the Gazans, with help from Iran, built a Mafia mini-state based on Jihad, terror, corruption, weapons-smuggling, rocket-building and launching, theft, murder and a medieval, death-cult mindset.

If the fantasy of Israel surrendering to its enemies and Jews leaving Israel ever came true, then all that would happen would be another series of nightmarish wars between different factions of Arab Muslims, like we have seen recently and in the past in Iraq, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon and other Arab countries.


...The problem in 1929 [the year of riots against Jews in Palestine] was not “the occupation,” but a refusal to accept any Jewish state in Palestine. This refusal stands in contrast to repeated (if not always full-hearted) Jewish acceptance of a two-state solution, including the Jews’ acceptance of the Peel Commission in 1937 and the UN Partition Plan in 1947. The Arab rejection of partition then and the Hamas rejection of a Jewish state now are both rooted in the same claim that the Jewish state is a settler-colonial enterprise. But this characterization is simply false.

First, Israel is not a colony of any country, nor was it established as one. It is not like the British colonies in America and Australia, nor the Belgian or German colonies in what were the Congo and South West Africa. Jews were not sent by anyone, nor did they migrate from a single country or even a single region. In other words, they had no metropole. Moreover, they have ancestral ties to the land. It is the place from which they came, and from which they were exiled. This is not to deny that Palestinians have ties to the same land, but it is not colonization when those who are driven out of their land return to it. Those Palestinian exiles who deny this, might ask themselves whether their own claims to some part of Palestine will evaporate in time, and if so, when?

Second, a very large proportion of the Jewish Israeli population is descended from refugees. These include not only refugees from pogroms and the Shoah in Europe, but also around 650,000 Jews who fled persecution in Arab countries and Iran. Other Jewish Israelis are migrants who have moved to Israel because, for any number of reasons, that is where they prefer to be. Refugees and migrants are not colonialists. Those who reject this distinction will be forced to acknowledge that there is now a substantial Muslim colonization of Europe, America, and other Western countries. That is not a reasonable characterization, nor is it one that Palestinians’ Western supporters will be eager to defend.

So what about “the occupation” in 2023? The Gaza Strip is not occupied, and hasn’t been since Israel unilaterally withdrew from the territory in 2005. It is true that Israel—along with Egypt—controls Gaza’s borders, but that is not the same as occupation. It is also true that the partial blockade (converted to a full siege following the October 7th massacre) has brought hardship to Gazans, but it is not a gratuitous infliction. The blockade was imposed in an attempt to control the flow of arms into Gaza, which Israelis knew Hamas would then use to attack Israel.

Israel does continue to occupy the West Bank, but responsibility for that conundrum cannot be laid solely at Israel’s door either. It takes two sides to make peace. Anybody who suggests that Israel could resolve the conflict by simply withdrawing from the West Bank should try to understand that the results of the Gaza disengagement demonstrate this to be impossible. That experience has provided a painful lesson in the dangers of vacating disputed land in the absence of (and possibly even with) a peace agreement. Since the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, that area has regularly been used as a launching ground for thousands of rockets into Israel (despite the blockade), and now for the worst massacre of Jews since the Nazis....

...But those who lay all (or almost all) of the blame for the ongoing conflict and the consequent statelessness of the Palestinians on Israel display either bad faith or naiveté. Lifting the blockade on Gaza and unilaterally withdrawing from the West Bank would amount to suicide for Israel’s Jews. The same is true of the suggestion that there could be a unified state of Jewish and Arab citizens from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. Those who propose such a state need to explain which country in the region this state would most resemble. Not a single state in the Middle East rates even remotely as well as Israel still does in terms of liberal and democratic freedoms. What reason do we have for thinking that a unified Palestine would be any different, especially with antisemitic rejectionists like Hamas in the polity.

When we ask what each side of the Hamas-Israel conflict could do differently, it is much easier to say what Hamas could do. It could stop attacking Israel. If it stopped behaving like the fundamentalist, repressive, terroristic regime that it is, and used its resources for building a nascent Palestinian state, it would bring greater prosperity to its citizens, gradually ease restrictions on its borders, and demonstrate that Palestine could exist peacefully alongside Israel. But that, of course, is not what Hamas wants.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts