...and continue analogy with WWII, anyone who is troubled by civilian casualties has to pray for a swift Israeli victory as there is no other way to minimize them
Hamas & Israel
- Thread starter Don Julio
- Start date
MMX, great point. Hamas and its many supporters in Gaza made a huge miscalculation in plotting their barbarous terror attack on Israel. I don't think they anticipated getting into a full scale war with the IDF as a result of the attack.
But anyone with a good understanding of the history of war should have known that Israel had to respond with the full force of its formidable military. Neither side wanted this war, but now that it's here, an Israeli victory is the best way to end it.
Once again, I refer to my favorite philosopher of war, Union General William Tecumseh Sherman, who made these statements about the best way to end the cruelty of war:
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Magill Resigns:
www.bbc.com
Meanwhile, we will now see whether this other dingbat is removed, who got "caught up" in "an extended, combative exchange about policies and procedures":
www.bbc.com
GIVE ME A BREAK! She was "caught up" in "an extended, combative exchange about policies and procedures"? In other words, she is saying she does not know how to think on her feet. I have made a living thinking on my feet for the past 30 years, and those who are unable to do that in my profession do not last. So I really do not have too much sympathy. This is Darwin Theory at work, nothing more, nothing less. It is kind of shocking to me that we have such morons running Ivy League Schools.
Elizabeth Magill: UPenn president quits in antisemitism row
She has faced mounting calls to resign since giving controversial Congressional testimony.
www.bbc.com
Claudine Gay: Harvard president sorry for remarks on antisemitism
Claudine Gay was under fire over her testimony in Congress which was described as "painfully inadequate".
www.bbc.com
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To this conflict there is only one solution: stop the occupation. You guys are gas-lighting, pushing fallacies and propagandas yet are totally failing at acknowledging the deep core of this issue; the zionist entity is illegitimately occupying a territory who does not belong to it since 1948. Needless to talk about Hamas and other strawman rhetoric. If you stand with Israël, fine. Then give them a bit of the respective territories you live in so they can leave the Palestinians alone and in peace. Otherwise, Palestine is 100 % right in its self-defense against a brutal colonizer who is infact nothing without the support of the major Western countries.
Totally false. You are the only person gaslighting here and revising history.
Completely false. Were you on the battlefields in the 1948 and 1967 conflicts? I have spoken to people who were. It is a huge fiction that Israel won those wars because of the "support of the major Western countries." Israel defeated a number of different Arab countries armed to the teeth by the USSR in those conflicts, not just Palestine which has no army. Here is why they lost if you actually lived the history or paid a whiff of attention to what actually happened:
1. The assembled Arab armies of many countries were in both conflicts outmaneuvered and out-strategized by Israel despite the Arab nations' overwhelming superiority of troops and weapons- Israel destroyed most of the Soviet supplied weapons and planes at the outset of the 1967 conflict and they could not be used.
2. Completely incompetent military leadership of the Arab countries which expected swift and massive victory and destruction of Israel, and did not count on stiff resistance and suffering massive casualties. When they did, they in many cases ran and scattered.
3. The 1967 War was the armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq on one side with vastly superior numbers and tanks supplied by the USSR, yet they suffered over 10 times the casualties and lost 10 times the weapons. Look at the documented superiority of weapons and numbers by the Arabs. Why did they lose in SIX DAYS? All of the above: lack of preparedness for the swift attack on the air fields, false belief that their military was superior and it would be over quickly for them (pride), shock and incompetent battlefield protocol when it wasn't, and incompetent military and political leadership. In other words, some of the usual reasons why wars are lost historically.
Six-Day War - Wikipedia
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From your posts it is clear that “stop the occupation” means elimination of Israel as the Jewish state. It would never happen. Most Arab states have already realized that existence of Israel is the permanent political reality. With the same logic you can ask for the elimination of USA and Canada and many other countries. So good luck in wasting your life.
You could apply the same logic to most countries in the world. Most nations didn't spontaneously come into existence or become nations in any way that was fair. We are being asked to rewrite history and start from scratch and it's not going to happen. I personally believe in a 2 state solution along the lines of the UN Resolution in 1947, but it's not going to happen so long as the Palestinian leadership's Mantra is death to Israel.
Here is a good response (below) to the frequently heard claim that Jews illegitimately "occupy" a place called "Palestine".
Israel has NOT occupied Gaza since 2005. After leaving Gaza, there was hope that the Gazans might choose to live normal lives and use the hundreds of millions of dollars they receive in foreign aid from many countries and organizations to build a normal, peaceful society that would show that Palestinians could co-exist with Jews.
Instead, the Gazans, with help from Iran, built a Mafia mini-state based on Jihad, terror, corruption, weapons-smuggling, rocket-building and launching, theft, murder and a medieval, death-cult mindset.
If the fantasy of Israel surrendering to its enemies and Jews leaving Israel ever came true, then all that would happen would be another series of nightmarish wars between different factions of Arab Muslims, like we have seen recently and in the past in Iraq, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon and other Arab countries.
quillette.com
Israel has NOT occupied Gaza since 2005. After leaving Gaza, there was hope that the Gazans might choose to live normal lives and use the hundreds of millions of dollars they receive in foreign aid from many countries and organizations to build a normal, peaceful society that would show that Palestinians could co-exist with Jews.
Instead, the Gazans, with help from Iran, built a Mafia mini-state based on Jihad, terror, corruption, weapons-smuggling, rocket-building and launching, theft, murder and a medieval, death-cult mindset.
If the fantasy of Israel surrendering to its enemies and Jews leaving Israel ever came true, then all that would happen would be another series of nightmarish wars between different factions of Arab Muslims, like we have seen recently and in the past in Iraq, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon and other Arab countries.
It’s Not the Occupation
It is rarely the case that all of the blame for a conflict belongs on one side. But that does not mean blame should be equally divided.
quillette.com
First of all dear Sic92 and whether you like it or not Israel legitimacy and Indigenous recognition of jewish people to this land is not even up for debate. The only people who believe otherwise are people calling for eradication of a legitimate state and killing of the jewish people. Exactly what hamas wants and openly say they want. So I'm not sure what you mean by ending an occupation? maybe you can explain us your vision of that.
Second: Israelis jews and israelis muslims enjoy a very happy life equality and freedom of religion (unseen in no other muslim country) and are going no were. So peace and compromise is the only option for palestinians to have a state that MUST include Israel . As a matter of fact they had more than one chance to make it happen and they backed up many times. last time Arafat literally pulled out at the last minute after everything was negotiated under Clinton administration
Third: Israel is more thant happy to make peace with arabs countries. Israel made peace with Egypt, Jordan. Recently the Abraham accords were signed with UEA and Morroco and was close to sign with Saudi Arabia and many more. Iran and hamas couldn't accept that.
Forth: where the hell is coward hamas? had they had an once of humanity they wouldn't let their people being the front of this war. they would do something to stop it. It is really sad for the civilians abandoned by those terrorists. They hide like rats in the tunnels and leave poor civilians in the fore front of the battle.
Last : anyone who thinks that legitimate resistance justifies the oct 7th horror massacres rapes and babies killing (and it sickens me to write it so I'm sparing you the details that you probably ignore to admit ) is one crooked sick mind. after those atrocities you don't get to chose the response.
In any case as I said I'm not jewish ( so you don't call me sionist) but I stand with Israel. can't wait for them to free gazans from hamas. I beg you gazans civilians will chant in the street when it's done.
Peace love and more
Yes, the same way nazi Germany, apartheid and colonialism also used to be a political reality once upon a time. It's only a matter of time before Justice and rightousness will triumph regardless of the cowardness and the treason of the Arab leaders on this question.
so if I understand your thoughts Israel is backed by western countries and arabs leaders are committing a treason against Palestinian people. I wonder why .....oh... maybe maybe .....Israel is not the vilain after all. LOL
lol, so much fallacioussness in this entire paragraph. It's never been about Killing jews and what not. You seem to ignore the reality and the history of the region prior to 1948 where all the confessions used to live together in peace. Also, you are conflicting the notion of jews and zionists as well as totally disregarding the fact that a lot of jews altrought the world disapprove and reject this ideology called Zionism.
Again, so much falsehood. You won't make me buy the idea that Zionists are looking after peace when they've been encouraging settlers to steal earths, demolish houses and others belongings from the Palestinians since DECADES in all impunity. Moreover, the Zionists are not only persecuting Muslims but they also do it to Christian arabs and Armenians living in the West Bank.
These countries have all sold out the Palestinian cause and it's such a joke when you talk about peace knowing that Israel still has territorial visions upon a large part of the Middle-East, a project called "Great Israel" who cannot be achieved for the moment. Talking off the leaders of those countries, all of them are puppies who bow down and cater to the US and their decision of acknolwedging the Zionist entity is far from being accepted by the vast majority of their populations. Especially Egyptians and Jordanians whom have the Palestinian cause in their hearts.
I would rather ask you why the hell Israel is bombing innocents civilians knowing that Hamas is supposedly hiding under tunnels ? Why does Israel is using bombs who are conventionally forbidden by the international laws ? As for the tunnels, what are you exactly expecting. Those are an excellent way to lead an assymetrical war against an opponent who owns the force superiority in term of arms, number and technology. If the IDF was not a coward army only good to kill babies, it would have tried to dismantle those tunnels who are the key element for the Palestinians. Do you believe that Hamas fighters are idiotic to the point of openly fighting IDF ? They can't manage to do it and they have to fight IDF with their own ways (same way the Vietcongs crushed the US army).
You, zionists apologists are using a gobbelian method in which you keep repeating a lie one thousand times until it becomes the truth. But the world nowadays isn't guillible like it used to be. The gross lies of rapes and babies being killed have been debunked since a while and even the Israelis press recognized that there were no proofs to be found. In fact, Israel have killed almost 8000 babies and the proofs can be found EVERYWHERE but you guys are incredibly intellectually dishonnest and bad-faithed to see it.
Talking about the 07 october, do you know that Apaches helicopters shot and bomb their own fellow israelis ? I invite you to educate yourself furthermore.
Again, you are getting twisted two different notion. Being Zionist doesn't equate being Jewish. Stand with Israel as much as you can, just know that you are standing with the wrong-track of history and the future will let you know that.
Interesting post. In democratic countries you are entitled to your opinion as soon as you do not act on it and are paying taxes, so US and Canadian governments can send some additional help to Israel. Israel surely needs help with some large water pumps to flood these tunnels. I heard some can deliver an Olympic size pool in one hour. Few of them can put a knee deep of sea water in all tunnels within 2-3 weeks. Hamas may soon enjoy underground beach parties with promised 70 virgins.
This editorial from Friday's Wall Street Journal exposes the true face of the anti-Israel movement...as one can see in the last several, hysterical posts above.
Opinion | The True Face of the Anti-Israel Movement
The leader of the Council on American-Islamic Relations celebrated Oct. 7, in his own words.www.wsj.com
The response in anti-Israel circles to Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre has been clarifying. Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), the tip of the spear on U.S. campuses, early on called the slaughter “a historic win for Palestinian resistance.”
The tune hasn’t changed, even from the leaders pressuring President Biden. Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), celebrated Oct. 7 at an American Muslims for Palestine convention on Nov. 24. A damning excerpt was publicized Thursday by the Middle East Media Research Institute.
American Muslims for Palestine then took down the full video, and Mr. Awad now claims a “hate website selected remarks from my speech out of context and spliced them together to create a completely false meaning.” But we got the video before Mr. Awad’s ally hid it, and here’s what CAIR’s leader had to say:
“The people of Gaza only decided to break the siege, the walls of the concentration camp, on Oct. 7. And yes, I was happy to see people breaking the siege and throwing down the shackles of their own land, and walk free into their land, that they were not allowed to walk in. And yes, the people of Gaza have the right to self-defense, have the right to defend themselves. And yes, Israel, as an occupying power, does not have that right to self-defense.”
The crowd applauded, and not a word in Mr. Awad’s speech qualified his pleasure with Oct. 7, justified as “self-defense.”
Democrats and media have long treated CAIR as a primary political spokesman for Muslim Americans. In late October the White House invited Mr. Awad to convey Muslim concerns about the war to the President. In May the Biden Administration included CAIR as a partner in its Strategy to Counter Antisemitism. The White House has now removed CAIR from that document and condemned Mr. Awad’s remarks.
On stage Mr. Awad accused Israel of buying “corrupt members of Congress,” concluding, “We have to free so many people from the shackles of AIPAC [the American Israel Public Affairs Committee] and its affiliates who have sold the soul of America.” Complaining of Mr. Biden’s betrayal, Mr. Awad asked, “For how much? It is for how much AIPAC and its affiliates have been controlling the U.S. government and the U.S. Congress. . . . Unless we free Congress, we will not be able to free Palestine.”
There it is, the hoary conspiracy that justice—however defined—could be achieved if only the Jews weren’t secretly shackling and manipulating the powers that be. Maybe that’s easier for Mr. Awad to accept than the truth: The American people support Israel and oppose Palestinian terrorism.
But CAIR and its allies have influence, and Mr. Awad said the White House had begun to listen. “When we say ‘if there is no cease-fire, there will be no votes for you in 2024 elections,’” he said, “we started to see the tone changing—and the position changing.”
Mr. Awad’s co-panelist was Osama Abuirshaid, director of American Muslims for Palestine, the leading sponsor of SJP on campus and an organizer of anti-Israel protests across the country. Mr. Abuirshaid told a rally Dec. 1: “What they alleged that happened on Oct. 7 turned out to be a lie. Most of the [Israeli] civilians were killed by their own army.” Will Democrats bend on Israel to people like this?
Near the end of Mr. Awad’s speech, he said, “I ask young people: Be wise. You are not in Palestine. You are not in Gaza. The language there doesn’t work here.” You know, less on the Jews and violence, and more on human rights. He should have taken his own advice.
CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad At American Muslims For Palestine (AMP) Convention: I Was Happy To See The People Of Gaza Break The Siege On October 7; They Were Victorious; The People Of Gaza Have The Right To Self-Defense – Israel Does Not
Nihad Awad, the executive director of CAIR spoke at the American Muslims for Palestine (AMP) convention in Chicago on No...www.memri.org
Eeek. You're so very bad at this.
I'm sorry, there's more but I was kind of done, I stopped reading.
Your video is literally posted by the IDF propaganda PR account (same one that has been posting the most cringe attempts at producing "evidence" - did get some good parody videos out of each attempt) lol Thanks for the propaganda material, I guess? I didn't watch the video because I'm not trying to defend attacks on civilians, you are.
But ok, if you want to use that to make an argument that it justifies Israel’s barbarity. Weird argument but ok. I find it interesting that you condemn Hamas but you are basically holding up Israel to the same standards, so what does it mean? Isn't the claim that Israel is civilized? Because I can't think of anyone who would convincingly argue that what Israel is doing can be described as civilized.
But you know what, if you want to put hamas and Israel on the same level and judge them based on the same criteria, that's totally fine with me, I'm very cool with that. Since you're defending these crimes, that would make you no different than someone defending Hamas in that case? Hm. Interesting.
I mean, Israel far outdoes Hamas on the atrocities and babarity scale (IOF has a lot of practice, abusing and killing daily for decades) So that's an interesting position to take. I believe you've just put Israel in the same class/category as Hamas. I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm also not defending either, but you are. I guess you're not as civilized as you thought you were, eh. Defending baby killing should have been your clue.
PS: No, Israel doesn't actually have a legal right to self defense as an occupier and yes occupied population have a right to armed resistance (which does not mean killing civilians, that's obviously a crime). Israel does not have a right to start a war with a population that is not a different nation. Since Israel continues to occupy and refuses to end it, it has responsibilities and obligations. It can arrest and prosecute
It cannot wage war and assassinate, or any of the long list of war crimes it's committing again.
It's not exactly like what's going on can be called self defense anyway. I'd love to write more but you not able to respond directly, and I'm sure you don't read it so I'll save it for another day.
Do you ever read anything other than propaganda and Fox "news"? Might not be such a bad idea to try something else one of these days.
Thank you. Come again.
Attachments
Yes, because they really care about the hostages, right? Did you hear the audio of a released hostage ripping into Netanyahu? She's livid. They know the government doesn't care. They were shot at from above by the idf when they were being brought into Gaza. They were terrified, she says. Because of the bombs! The government would totally flood them if no one would know. They're seasoned war criminals, of course they'd do that too.
The 70 Virgins bit shows your bigotry and your age at the same time! The late nineties are calling. What a ridiculous bigoted thing to say.
Question. So what would you call the mass murders (not only currently in Gaza but in the West Bank, and before the attack from October? You think that's a democratic country? Do you have a comment about Israel and the US refusing an offer to stop armed resistance and have democratic elections in 2021? Could it be that Israel benefits too much from keeping millions of people under occupation while it steals land (just approved new settlements, surprise!) and has a conveniently captive population to test its weapons on (literally, they sell them as "battle tested" or some other similar obscene term). I'm not even joking.
If you want to defend Israel's crimes, don't pretend it's not far more cruel and murderous than hamas can ever be. And the Islamophobia is so lame. You do know there are Christians in Gaza and the West Bank? They get bombed too. Israel doesn't treat them any differently because its not religion, its colonialism, it's about land. They bombs churches, they don't care. Destroyed one of the oldest churches and killed people - Christians and Muslims who were sheltering a few weeks ago. So spare me the Islamophobia.
I'm getting sick of this ignorance. Would you find it acceptable if I made comments similar but about Jewish people? No, so don't feel comfortable enough to do it here. I do have close family members who are Muslim. And from what I can remember, it was a mosque that was attacked by a racist in Quebec city. I have a friend who made a documentary about it and he met the survivors, it's a horrific story. Spewing your hate contributes to that kind of violence. You don't even know shit about Islam. So have some respect and if you don't want it done to you, then don't do it to anyone else.
There isn't a single Israeli who would want to trade places with someone in Gaza. So why should they be made to live that way forever because Israel likes it too much? It's really not complicated. There's nothing defensible about any of it. No one is going to accept to be treated that way forever. Enough. Israel experienced a terrible attack. Not defensible. But every other day before and since, Israel is the occupier, it is the aggressor. And Palestinians have a right not to be abused that way. And Israel won't do anything to change the situation because they're just buying time stealing more and more land. It's basic humanity.
Enough. Civilians are being made to pay, and people have the audacity to keep dehumanizing while sitting comfortably nowhere near the horrors Israel is committing. They're starving them ffs. You can't live in Canada and defend that. Wth is wrong with ppl. How do you even rationalize close to 8000 children dead, thousands more under rubble, over a 1000 who've lost one or more limbs, Israel has destroyed the healthcare system, they killed 56 journalists and many of their families. They killed doctors, bombed ambulances, schools, hospitals. Doctors were forced to perform amputations on kids without anesthesia. Sit with that.
The idf left babies to die when they forced everyone tovevacuate a hospital. When the parents tried to go back, they were shot at. Days later they were able to get there. The babies were still hooked up to medical equipment but obviously all dead and their body was decomposing. Like, what kind of monster does That? And there's so much more, I could keep going and going.
Do people just not know because they don't want to or they don't care? This has shook me to my core. What is wrong with this world? Are people completely mad? This is just insane. My mind can't understand how people can watch and literally justify this. That's not normal, ok? People, THAT IS NOT NORMAL.
There are 50 000 pregnant women. No more hospitals. I was very sick in October. If I hadn't had access to medical care, I would be dead now. I thought about palestine women, mothers the whole time i was in the hospital. And every day I think of women who are dying just because they were born in Gaza. Kids. Babies, men, entire families. It's barbaric. You have to stop defending this. It's indefensible. Period, end of sentence.
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You’re entitled to those false beliefs fueled by the desire to see Israel disappear from the map.
Blaming settelments, BS occupation and using those big words like genocide and Apartheid and most of all justifying what those monsters did makes you loose any legitimacy and humanity. You guys pretend you care for the palestinians but in reality you care more about the hamas agenda.
Why all of a sudden everyone is obsessed with Israel? 9 Millions souls in the middle of 1 Billions muslims.
Where is the outrage for 200000 syrians killed in civil war ? 100000 in yemen?
I wish for peace, for palestinian to have someone who represents them fairly without stealing international aid and help them accept a negotiated 2 state solution
Peace
When I first understood the magnitude of the savagery of the Hamas terror attacks on Israel, I knew that Israel had to respond with the full force of its military.
There would be no limited war or concern for "international opinion" or the delicate sensibilities of the western media. It would be all-out war against Hamas and that is exactly what we have seen and thankfully so. I fully support Israel and I totally condemn Hamas for starting the war and getting so many of its own people killed. It's terrible but it could be no other way after October 7.
Hamas seems to have made a huge miscalculation in its planning. Hamas leaders thought Israel would respond with a few days of limited bombing and shelling and maybe a small commando raid. Then Hamas would trade their hostages for their fellow terrorists in Israeli prisons and life would go back to "normal". But of course that's not what happened and I was not the least bit surprised.
I'm reminded again of something General Sherman said about the South before the start of the Civil War. He tried to warn the South not to start the war that it was about to instigate. It took a few years, but Sherman's prediction was right and Sherman himself played a big role in destroying the Confederate Army and the society that supported it.
.
Sherman also wrote this in a letter to a Southern friend:
“... You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it...Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors.”
City Journal published this article in November about Hamas' fateful errors. It's hard to know what will happen as this war further unfolds, but there is no question that Hamas and its supporters in Gaza have paid an enormous price for their miscalculation..
www.city-journal.org
There would be no limited war or concern for "international opinion" or the delicate sensibilities of the western media. It would be all-out war against Hamas and that is exactly what we have seen and thankfully so. I fully support Israel and I totally condemn Hamas for starting the war and getting so many of its own people killed. It's terrible but it could be no other way after October 7.
Hamas seems to have made a huge miscalculation in its planning. Hamas leaders thought Israel would respond with a few days of limited bombing and shelling and maybe a small commando raid. Then Hamas would trade their hostages for their fellow terrorists in Israeli prisons and life would go back to "normal". But of course that's not what happened and I was not the least bit surprised.
I'm reminded again of something General Sherman said about the South before the start of the Civil War. He tried to warn the South not to start the war that it was about to instigate. It took a few years, but Sherman's prediction was right and Sherman himself played a big role in destroying the Confederate Army and the society that supported it.
.
Sherman also wrote this in a letter to a Southern friend:
“... You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it...Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors.”
City Journal published this article in November about Hamas' fateful errors. It's hard to know what will happen as this war further unfolds, but there is no question that Hamas and its supporters in Gaza have paid an enormous price for their miscalculation..
Fateful Errors
The terrorist group made several strategic miscalculations in its unconscionable attacks on Israel.
www.city-journal.org
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Regarding the use of human shields and placing command centers in civilian areas, I don't understand why pro Palestinian protesters do not seem to understand that high civilian casualties are the inevitable result from attempting to stage a war in this fashion. Historically, no nation has ever conducted a war in this fashion in which the entire military strategy is to inflict high casualties on its own population by embedding all military personal and weaponry in the places of highest civilian and baby concentration. The protesters who fall for these shenanigans and believe the responsibility for civilian and baby deaths are other than on Hamas and its strategy are ignoramuses, who would set the course of civilization on eternal fire by creating a precedent that will be followed by every radical group and cause in every country going forward. It's simply not OK to do this, it's rank cowardice and the Israelis cannot, should not and will not be bowed by it. The civilian casualty count is the responsibility of Hamas.
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Sad but so true.
also no one is questioning the real number of casualties. Since numbers seems important
It is beleived that at least 7000 freedom fighters aka terrorists are among casualties and hamas reported numbers grossly overestimated.although it is certain that civilians are caught in line of fire I find it hard to beleive how precise and swift hamas is able to report hundred deaths everybday
