Hamas

[CryWolf]

Let's indulge ourselves in some world politics. With the landslide victory of Hamas in the Palestine elections, what will happen in the Middle East and the world?

With his mortal enemies (Hamas and Iran by proxy) at its doorsteps, how will Israel and ultimately USA react?

My good friends, enjoy your lives. The shit gonna hit the fan.

Oil price will go UP UP UP. On top of that, with Iran wanting to create a bourse where oil will be traded in Euros, Iran will have to be put out of business by the US because the greenback will have no value.

You know what that means? A bankrupt US and ultimately a meltdown of world economics. All major world banks will have to dump the US $ for the Euros.

I can hear the drumbeat of war rolling, guys.

Let's pray and enjoy sex as much as possible.

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

Well for those that feel sorry for the Palistanians and claim they are victums of Isreali agrression, please keep in mind that it was the Palistanins who voted for a terrorist party. They had their chance for peice and chosse a party bent on war. So durring their next terrorist attack, Isreal will respond in kind. Isreal does have the right to defend itself. Off course all the bleeding harts, antisemetic people will cry foul play, but too bad. As for the USA. The USA should not interfear at all and give Isreal a free hand to do as it please.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The problem with the Palestinians is the problem with the entire Middle East. They blame their problems on Israel and the USA. In reality, the problems are the corruption of all of the Arab governments, the failure to separate Church and State and allowing Islamic extremists to dictate policy (which policy includes official sexism and the exclusion of women from the work force), and the persecution of the educated to the point where the talented professionals in all of the Arab countries have left to go to greener pastures in the west. Basically all of the Arab countries are socially, economically and culturally 300 years behind the rest of the world. Forcing democracy on them as in Iraq is not going to work.

Sadly, I do think a major conflict and war between the western countries and the Arab countries is inevitable. The Hamas victory, if nothing else, illustrates the ability of the Islamic extremists to brainwash the uneducated masses. This will continue. My own feeling is that we should have developed alternative energy sources to not be so reliant on oil and if we had done that we could simply ignore the Middle East. Because we didn't, we will always be the scapegoat for Arab failures although the reasons for those failures should be obvious to everyone outside the Arab countries. Ultimately, that scapegoating will lead to war. It's only going to take one charismatic terrorist type, an Arab Hitler, to unite the Arab countries in a joint attack on Israel which will then precipitate a world war. It is going to happen.

 

[spin]

The problem with the Palestinians is the problem with the entire Middle East. They blame their problems on Israel and the USA. In reality, the problems are the corruption of all of the Arab governments, the failure to separate Church and State and allowing Islamic extremists to dictate policy (which policy includes official sexism and the exclusion of women from the work force), and the persecution of the educated to the point where the talented professionals in all of the Arab countries have left to go to greener pastures in the west. Basically all of the Arab countries are socially and culturally 300 years behind the rest of the world. Forcing democracy on them as in Iraq is not going to work.

Well said EagerBeaver you make a very good point.

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

EagerBeaver:

You hit the bows eye and you're right. Another problem in the Middle east is that they don't want to understand is that their time in the sun is over. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians and yes the Arab Musloms had their time as great civlizations. But their time is over and now America and the west are todays great civalizations. History has shown that the balance of power is constintly shifting, even if we don't see in our life time. The problem is that the Arab and Moslum world still want to be the center of the world and fail to realize that their time is over. They can continue to be bitter and hold on to past glory or they can acept the worls as it is and strive to be the best they can be. Who knows, they may yet find new glory.

 

[HobKnobber]

Lol

EB, That is hilarious analysis. I don't pretend to know all the problems or even half the solutions but blaming the other guy and not looking at our own civilizations responsibilty in this is WOW!!!!!! I mean expletives and sarcasm just wouldn't do it justice. C'mon. It's religious sure and they have extremists. But hey so do jews and believe it or not there are even a small minority of Christians ( see whose in the white house, oh by the way that's sarcasm!!)
I don't know man, arm chair quaterbacking is not the answer, it's back to those old values we don't see these days , dialogue, leadership, struggle and sacrifice. Oh ya but an arab hitler will do it. that will redeem us. PLEASE!!!!
No offense personally but let's all take the high road on this.Persoanlly I'm laughing I tell you laughing that it was democratic and the amercians and by virtue of this the jewish state now has to look at what democracy is. brainwashing.... c'mon let me treat you like that, and I'm not talking about the guys who blow themselves up I'm talking about the ones who don't. let me shove a gun in face all the time, let me call your wife a whore, let me strip search your 6 year old son. let me see you live your whole life like that. and tell me you feel good about it , that your not going to want to stick to me , not by blowing yourself up and anybody else around me, but by voting. anytime you want to be treated like that and tell me that your being brainwashed, hey more power to you

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

HobKnobber:

Not to take EagerBeaver's side, but you are forgeting one very important reason for the ways the Palisistanians are treated. They keep blowing themselves up and killing inocent people. You have young children as young as 5yrs learning to use guns on the infedels and throwing bottles at Isreali soulders. The terrorists has gone as far as to have trading cards of themselves being serculated amoung their youth. Here we trade hockey cards and compare how many points each player has scored. In Palistine, they have trading cards of terrorists who have killed others through agression or suicide bombings. This is no lie, but based on facts I've read in papers and seen on documentries. Is there any wonder why they are being striped surched.

 

[EagerBeaver]

HobKnobber,

The situation in the Middle East is what it is. You can ignore reality or recognize it. I choose to recognize it. Virtually every educated person I know in the USA has the same opinion about the Arab world. My point of view is hardly an isolated one. I would like to see the situation resolved through diplomacy, but realistically it will never happen. You are correct that the Israelis have some religious extremists and they do influence policy a bit, but the big difference is that Israel has a democratic government which officially separates Church and State, so these religious extremists can be controlled. The Arab countries are utterly incapable of controlling their own extremists which we have seen time and time again and it is because of the reasons previously stated. The governments in all of these countries are corrupt. The American Arabs I have met loathe the governments in their native countries. They come over here and see what western civilization is like and they realize the fallacies of the Arab world. The biggest problem that Arab countries are having is all the talented people who could help the countries build prosperity and a more stable economy have all left for the west!!! What's left is poor and helpless people who are exploited and manipulated by the corrupt officials in power. It's a vicious cycle because the talent is leaving these countries in droves.

Israel has done what it has done because it has had no choice. Innocent civilians are routinely attacked in Israel. Suicide bombings. These kinds of things lead to strip searches, occupation and martial law. I again trace this back to Islamic extremism.

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

EagerBeaver:

You hit on a good point. I would some it up like this: Democracy VS Theocracy.

We all know what democracy is, but a Theocratic state is a state where religious law and practice is dictated by the state. Midevil Europe during the time of Christiandom is a fine example. That's why Democracy came up with the division of church and state.

As for Isreal, I don't see the possiblity of a Zionist state and here's why. In Canada our electeral system is a "First Past the Post" system. This means in each riding the first to get the number needed wins the seat no matter how close the vote. In Isreal, it goes by percentage. So if a party gets for example 30% of the national vote, then they get 30% of the seats. Unfortunitly these means that usally no one party has any real power and there are many deadlocks in their system. So unless everyone becomes a Zionists, I would not worry. In the Arab countries on the other hand, they are runned by dictatorships that promote ignorance and extream religious ideas as a way of keeping the people under theur thumbs.

 

[Lawless]

Without taking side, please remember how Israel came to existence!
The future is ...
Alternative source of energy is primordial ....as a starter...it's a matter of....
All Arab States are going to....eventually!!!
IMHO

 

[Galactica]

Nice logic EB. How many dictators have tried to blame their social woes on somebody else. Seems to be a common theme.

If memory serves me right, the Palestines have been the designated "whipping boy", being used by every regional power to do their dirty work. Does anyone remember "Black September" when the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordainian government? In many Middle-East countries, the Palastinians have been thrown out for being troublemakers (Kuwait was a recent example).

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/september.html

There has never been a "Palestine", the region has been ruled by a plethora of nations from the Egyptians, Jews, Turks, Greeks, Romans, Asyrians, Cursaders, Brits and Malmuks (to name a few). In 1948, the UN proposed a compromise by offering the Palestines land of their own, but the Palestinians sided with the Arabs and took up arms (go for broke and get all of the land for themselves)...they lost big time.

There is such a dicotomy in the region now. You have constitutional republics/parliments (Isreal, Turkey), emerging democracies (Iraq, Afghanistan, UAE, Qatar, Egypt and Lebannon) and the good-old fashioned dictatorships (Syria, Iran).

Will the new Palestine government respect the rule or law? Will they offer freedom of the press, speech or Religion? I have serious doubts with any government who sides with Iran or whose goal is the destruction of another people. Heck, does anyone know about the "Holocost Myth" conferences they are having Iran right now? Does that send a shiver up the spine...things are starting to repeat themselves.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/


Their children are being brainwashed into the new Hitler Youth and Iran openly believes they can fight and win an armed conflict with the west. The Iranian president also hinted that he is the "Islamic mesia" and will soon crush the Western World. Such madness...as though they are conducting a suicide pact.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/11/184cb9fb-887c-4696-8f54-0799df747a4a.html

 

[HobKnobber]

Trying to water that walnut

Let me try to elucidate

Virtually every educated person I know in the USA has the same opinion about the Arab world. ( Is this brainwashing??)


My point of view is hardly an isolated one. ( Your right hardly isolated, but lacking in depth and perception)

I would like to see the situation resolved through diplomacy, but realistically it will never happen. ( I'm sure King George had the same thought about the colonies, or do only Amercians have the right to declare what is democratic, like say spying on their own people not just now but in the past)

You are correct that the Israelis have some religious extremists and they do influence policy a bit, but the big difference is that Israel has a democratic government which officially separates Church and State
Wrong!!!! , it is a religious state, created by jewish people for jewish people as decreed in the bible. If that's not religious then the pope's not catholic

The Arab countries are utterly incapable of controlling their own extremists which we have seen time and time again and it is because of the reasons previously stated. Why should they!! so that more bombs and bullets can be thrown their way, like say the 30,000 insurgents that have died in Iraq


The governments in all of these countries are corrupt.
Except for The US and Canada and all other western powers that are free from corruption , have you heard of the gomery commission?

The American Arabs I have met loathe the governments in their native countries. They come over here and see what western civilization is like and they realize the fallacies of the Arab world.
I'm curious how many of your arab friends you have met are doctors or lawyers or otherwise educated and yet struggle in meaningless jobs that we won't do and yet I believe you when they say are grateful, I was out with a friend who came to this country from Iran with $12 in his pocket and now makes 75,000 a year. It took him 15 years, he is grateful he is happy but he also knows he is lucky, very lucky

The biggest problem that Arab countries are having is all the talented people who could help the countries build prosperity and a more stable economy have all left for the west!!!
That's a generalization , people say the same thing about nurses in canada, are you telling me if they had more einsteins they'd be more receptive to being treated the way they are by the Israeli gov't. Like I said before if your IQ was 185 can I call your wife a whore and your going to feel good or know that I'm just trying to get your "goat"

What's left is poor and helpless people who are exploited and manipulated by the corrupt officials in power. It's a vicious cycle because the talent is leaving these countries in droves.

Do you work for FOX??

Israel has done what it has done because it has had no choice. Innocent civilians are routinely attacked in Israel. Suicide bombings. These kinds of things lead to strip searches, occupation and martial law. I again trace this back to Islamic extremism.

Maybe your tracing should lead you back to the middle ages. I have an excellent book for you to peruse, Holy War by Karen Amrstrong. It was written in the early 80's and may or may not be available but I hope your library would have a copy. I'm not trying to lecture you or anybody else but you still act as though YOU , not you personally, but you as in your gov't and society have no impact or responsibility that you bear no witness and therefore you are completely 100% guilt free of any of what can only be described as unimaginable human suffering. If you truly believe this then pass the Ajax I have to clean my mind tonight

 

[General Gonad]

The Fateful Triangle

This is a contentious issue but an important one. Admittedly, the two most influential thinkers that have shaped my mind on this subject are Jewish intellectuals: Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein. Both authors are labelled as anti-semitic frauds by most Jewish lobby groups. But Chomsky's treatise, The Fateful Triangle, and Finkelstein's Image and Reality in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, have profoundly shaped my thoughts. These two scholars are a rare and courageous breed of intellectuals.

Those of you who love great debates, then I invite you to listen to professor Chomsky debate the Harvard Law professor, Alan Dershowitz (author of the case for Israel) at Harvard's Institute of Politics website. The video archives can be found here:

http://www.iop.harvard.edu/events_forum_archive.html

And the debate was on November 29th, 2005. Finally, let me state that I want peace in the Middle East. I want the state of Israel to coexist along with a free and democratic state of Palestine. However, I feel that Israeli foreign policy has done the exact opposite of what it has always claimed: to ensure a secure Israel for the long run.

GG

 

[CryWolf]

Questions to EB

EB,

I like your analysis and concur with you.

Have a question : how do we (the west) take care of the Iranian problem?

We can't let these fuckheads have a nuke bomb. Israel won't be able to pull off the same thing they did to Irak when they bombed the Osirak reactor.

We can't count on Europe to take care of it diplomatically. These guys do not have any balls (besides G. Britain). I hate France and Germany.

So, what gives?

Footnote:

I am not an american but to all you that complain about the US hegemony. Remember that they are the only super power that can defend the FREE world, remember who got rid of Hitler and liberated France (these assholes would be talking German today if not for the US and GB), remember how they defeated Japan and saved the whole south east asia, remember how they prevented Somalia to be another Biafra and the list goes on and on...

Each time a US soldier is killed, my heart bleeds. The US troops should be supported, check these links:

www.defendamerica.mil
www.military.com
www.specialoperations.com

Burn in hell Cindy Sheehan, George Clooney, Sean Penn, Harry Belafonte and the likes.

More power to Bush and the Republicans....Fuck the whiners!!!

 

[JustBob]

Hamas = terrorists = bad is oversimplifying the issue. The Palestinians only had two choices, Fatah and Hamas. Both support terrorism. Fatah was corrupt to the bone and did little for the Palestinian people while Hamas at the local level, has provided Palestinians with infrastructures, built schools, hospitals, etc... If you are a Palestinian who are you going to vote for? The reality is that most Palestinians really don't give a hoot about Israel. When you live in some of the worst conditions on the planet, your #1 priority is to have your basic needs provided for. Moreover, Hamas isn't a monolithic block of extremists. There are many factions in Hamas, including moderate ones. We'll just have to wait and see which way the winds will blow. I hope that Hamas, if they really want to be recognized as a legitimate political force, will become more political and less militant (their current truce with Israel is now almost a year old). It has happened in the past with other "liberation movements" like SinFein/IRA and also in Erythrea. I'm not saying it will necessarily happen with Hamas, but it's a possibility. But first and foremost, they would have to recognize Israel's right to exist.

 

[The_Seeker]

according to the Bible Code (not daVinci code ... which is crap) world war 3 will begin with a nuclear strike on Israel

when you look at how terrorism has advanced over the past 10 years ... what is now going on in Iran ..... and hamas on Israel's doorstep and the general insanity of arab nations .... it appears that the end has arrived

oh by the way the Bible Code clearly states the year of the start of WW3 with the nuclear attack on Israel .... it is 2006

spend your time with those you care about .... little time remains for anybody

fyi .... if you want to learn about the Bible Code just google it

 

[CryWolf]

I've heard about that code. Even if I'm not a believer, I do believe that WW3 will start in the Middle East.

 

[CantSeeMrHappy]

No more oil soon

Did not find the link, showing a cool graphic of the underground oil through seismology.

Anyways, for a decade now the Arabs have been pumping sea water underground to force up the remaining oil underground.

There's like less than 15 years worth of actual daily production left, then no more, all gone.

Cheap extraction replaced with worldwide expensive extraction. This shift alone will remove some of the frictions.

About history & the Palestinians. The Israelis conquered through force that land, and removed nomadic tribes from the area, erecting walls. They Israel started expanding.

This is similar to what we did to the Amerindians, except that their large reserve borders US, Canada, Quebec, Ontario.

What if the population of Montreal & South Shore tripples? We cut their territories by half, so that Chateauguay can quintuple in size. We do that with the help of the military, so they don't get fair compensation.

Now add to that fact that Mt-Royal would be their holiest of holy temples, but to go there, their numbers are limited access, searched.

Then add sympathetic rich New Yorkers that supply them with lots of free armament - rockets, AK's, bombs, munitions.

Add still that Ontario, New York / Maine and New Brunswick "support" the plight of the Amerindians against the not-nice Quebec policies.

Of course this great fiction story will NEVER come to pass, because there are no religious ties between the Amerindians and the non-Amerindians.
The different gov't's bought them out, and still do.

Just don't interfere with their right to do trading of anything to anyone, like they have done for hundred's of years, though. Ouch.

I have friends from as far away as Morocco and Algeria that now live here. To sum it up, we Westerners can only comprehend 1% of the true conflict, complexities and subleties.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Spiderman05,

I have been to the Middle East and have personally talked to Israelis who fought in the various armed conflicts. I cannot say any more without getting into self identifying information on a public board.

 

[Juice_mtl]

There is a very important important issue being ignored here. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One could argue that, from England's point of view, one George Washington, and a goverment he went on to lead, were in fact terrorists. The truth is that Fatah has become quite complacent over the years, while Hamas is building schools and hospitals, helping the Palestinian people where help is most needed. The difference between a suicide bomber blowing up a coffeshop in Tel Aviv and an Israeli Military helicopter blowing up a civilian buiding in the Gaza strip in order to eliminate one alleged terrorist? Method of execution. Before you start judging Palestinians and the government they elected, walk a mile in their shoes...