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Waynegrow2

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General Gonad said:
Those of you who love great debates, then I invite you to listen to professor Chomsky debate the Harvard Law professor, Alan Dershowitz (author of the case for Israel) at Harvard's Institute of Politics website. The video archives can be found here:

http://www.iop.harvard.edu/events_forum_archive.html

And the debate was on November 29th, 2005. Finally, let me state that I want peace in the Middle East. I want the state of Israel to coexist along with a free and democratic state of Palestine. However, I feel that Israeli foreign policy has done the exact opposite of what it has always claimed: to ensure a secure Israel for the long run.

GG


Excellent reference. I've seen Chomsky speak, and there is virtually no debating him when it comes to the Israeli/Palestine conflict, and the CIA involvement in Central America in the '80s. His resources and stats are staggering. Israel has a long history w/ the USA, lined w/ deep pockets and extensive contracts. There is much more at play here along with the 'Hamas victory'.

Now I wonder if Mod6 will delete this....
 

EagerBeaver

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Guys,

I am really surprised to read some of your comments. First of all, with regard to Dershowitz, he wrote a great book called "Why Terrorism Works" which all of you should read because that book speaks the truth that is so elusive to many of you. Dershowitz was #1 in his class at Harvard Law School and that did not happen because he was a moron. The man told it like it is in that book.

It is ridiculous to compare the Palestinian situation with the USA at its inception on any level!

First of all, the Revolutionary War was not fought over land but rather taxation without representation. The American colonists were not looking for land and they were not poor, but they were fed up with the tyranny of King George III and his whimsical imposition of onerous taxes. George wanted a piece of the action because he saw America as a new tax revenue stream, and the Americans were not about to have any of it.

Second, The Arabs and Palestinians have attacked the Israelis in three different wars (1948, 1967 and 1973) and were ultimately dealt HUMILIATING military defeats in all 3, despite having vast superiority in numbers, due to the utterly incompetent leadership of the Arabs. These military disasters, including the 1967 Six Day War which was arguably the most humiliating military defeat in world history, caused the Arabs to finally cease attacking Israel in the traditional military manner with armies fighting armies (wars they could not win), and instead shifted to terrorists killing innocent civilians. And don't give me any of this USA supporting Israel bullshit because the USSR was testing out all of its weaponry with those Arab armies. Ask people who were out in those battlefields.

George Washington, on the other hand, secured a military victory for the Americans at Yorktown and in a number of other battles. These were traditional military victories, which led to the withdrawal of the British imperialism in our country at least until a brief resurgence in the War of 1812 which also ended in victory for the USA.

Third, and most significantly, the guys who signed the Declaration of Independence were not guys who were starving and poor and uneducated and trained from an early age to blow up civilians. They were almost all highly educated and immensely wealthy men, who risked their lives for an ideal - a democratic ideal - that was more important than the personal wealth that they had amassed. You think Benjamin Franklin and John Hancock could not afford to pay higher taxes? Hancock almost singlehandedly bankrolled the Revolutionary War effort, and Franklin could have done so had he chosen to. Both of these men had death sentences handed down on them immediately after signing the Declaration of Independence (King George ordered all of the signers hung on the spot if caught by the British military). Franklin and Hancock and the others did not risk their lives and their immense wealth for land, or for basic necessities with which to live. They risked it for an ideal, that ideal being truly democratic government. To call them terrorists and put them in the same category as the leaders of Hamas is to ignore what has happened in western civilization for the last 200 plus years. Franklin and Hancock et al put their necks on the line so that we can all live with a government of our choice by the people and for the people. We owe a lot to those men.
 
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General Gonad

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EB,

I will let professor Finkelstein's critique of Dershowitz's book, "Why Terrorism Works" speak for itself: (for more, visit www.normanfinkelstein.com)

Finkelstein comments:

I would want briefly to supplement some of Professor Desch's comments.

Point (1) in Dershowitz's letter. Although it might seem that the quote Dershowitz cites in his letter comes from Why Terrorism Works, it does not. Dershowitz keeps two sets of books. Whenever he gets called on one of his more outrageous statements, Dershowitz rushes into print with a contrary opinion, and then cites the revisionist account as the unique and authoritative one. So, after receiving harsh criticism for what he said in Why Terrorism Works and attendant interviews, Dershowitz wrote an essay for a book edited by University of Texas Law School professor Sanford Levinson, from which the cited quote in his letter comes (Alan Dershowitz, "Tortured Reasoning," in Sanford Levinson, ed., Torture: A Collection (New York: Oxford University Press, 2004), p. 266). Apart from what Desch rightly quotes from Why Terrorism Works, compare what Dershowitz was saying at the time Why Terrorism Works came out:
Any reason why you use needles under the fingernails as your torture method of choice?

A reviewer criticized me for that. I purposely wanted to do that. I don't want to be vague. I wanted to come up with a tactic that can't possibly cause permanent physical harm but is excruciatingly painful. I agree with the reviewer; he's right when he said, "different strokes for different folks." For different people, different kinds of nonlethal torture might be more effective. Obviously, to the experts, having seen the movie "Marathon Man," drilling the tooth might be better than some. But the point I wanted to make is that torture is not being used as a way of producing death. It's been used as a way of simply causing excruciating pain.

Aren't there other forms of torture that would be less painful than that, that you might have considered?

But I want more painful. I want maximal pain, minimum lethality. You don't want it to be permanent, you don't want someone to be walking with a limp, but you want to cause the most excruciating, intense, immediate pain. Now, I didn't want to write about testicles, but that's what a lot of people use. I also wanted to be explicit because I didn't want to be squeamish about it. People have asked me whether I would do the torturing and my answer is, yes, I would if I thought it could save a city from being blown up.

Source: salon.com/books/int/2002/09/12/dershowitz/index3.html
Point (2) in Dershowitz's letter. To figure out who's telling the truth, it is a simple exercise to compare Dershowitz's rendering of Morris with what Morris actually wrote. Dershowitz never points to a single instance where I have misrepresented this juxtaposition in my appendices. Rather, he gestures to an alleged email correspondence between a FAU professor and Morris. Several weeks ago I requested from this FAU professor a copy of his alleged email correspondence to verify that Dershowitz accurately rendered it. The professor never responded. You will notice that, in Dershowitz's rendering, two questions were allegedly put to Morris: on the use of citations and on representation of Morris's current opinions. The alleged reply from Morris (as rendered by Dershowitz), however, seems only to bear on the representation of his views, not on the matter of citation. It is also peculiar that Dershowitz didn't himself write Morris soliciting a letter of support. (Or did he but didn't get one?) Before assuming that Morris has confirmed Dershowitz's scholarship, I would want to see the actual email correspondence. This is an elementary precaution when dealing with Dershowitz. Finally, it is noteworthy that nowhere on his website did Dershowitz post this vindication from Morris, although he had plenty to say about me. Is this because he worried that someone might check up on it?

Point (3) in Dershowitz's letter. Everyone who has actually examined the evidence that I assemble in Appendix I of Beyond Chutzpah concurs that I make a compelling case. (See, e.g., Jon Wiener in The Nation, Amy Wilentz in the Los Angeles Times, and Neve Gordon in The National Catholic Reporter.) I am not aware of anyone who still supports Dershowitz in his denials since publication of my book. It is unclear what evidence Bok actually examined, since he never requested from me a copy of the advance proofs, while it is also worth bearing in mind that, scandalously, Bok acquitted Laurence Tribe of plagiarism charges, although the evidence was (again) overwhelming. The testimony of James Freedman is rather underwhelming, given that he and Dershowitz are – by their own mutual reckoning – best friends.

Point (4) in Dershowitz's letter. The adage, "Where there's smoke, there's fire," would seem to apply in Dershowitz's case. Consider what an avowed admirer of Dershowitz (in particular, his views on Israel) recently wrote in the Claremont Review of Booksregarding another opus to which Dershowitz's name is affixed as author:
The Rights and Wrongs of Alan Dershowitz
By Hadley Arkes

The Claremont Institute | November 4, 2005

A review of Rights From Wrongs: A Secular Theory of the Origin of Rights, by Alan M. Dershowitz

There he goes again: Alan Dershowitz has turned out another book. I know, I know, but look: over the years he has occasionally said sensible and even compelling things on the matter of Israel; and he has been a model of sobriety on dealing with terrorism and detention when compared with other, rather untethered, people on the Left. In fact, back in 1970, he wrote a piece for Commentary on preventive detention in Israel. Without quite intending it, he virtually replicated and amplified Abraham Lincoln's case for the suspension of habeas corpus, and did it in terms that resonated with our own time.

...

How could Dershowitz have been so wrong on every aspect of these matters? The charitable answer is that this is not his usual field. He was operating out of the area of his main strength. Of course, with the recent experience of Professor Dershowitz's colleagues at the Harvard Law School, other explanations suddenly arise: Professors Tribe and Ogletree explained some egregious lapses into plagiarism by reporting that certain books of theirs were written in part by their student aides, with only a cursory review. A mischievous hypothetical: could it be that parts of Dershowitz's book are in conflict with one another because they were written by different hands? In a curious, telling passage, he refers to the author of the Dred Scott opinion as "Justice Roger Tawney," and to the author of the Brown v. Board of Education decision as "Justice Earl Warren." No one familiar with these cases, or the law, would have misspelled the name of Roger Taney; and he would have quickly corrected the text to read, in either instance, Chief Justice Taney and Chief Justice Warren. All of us need proofreaders, but there is a strong temptation to think that these pages were never read by anyone who had more than a passing acquaintance with the subject. The publisher, Basic Books, surely owed their author, and their audience, a better performance than this.

...

Hadley Arkes is the Ney Professor of Jurisprudence and American Institutions at Amherst College, and a fellow of the Claremont Institute.
 
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EagerBeaver

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Finkelstein's piece sounds more like a personal attack on Dershowitz than an intelligent discussion of the issues.

I read Dershowitz's book and drew my own conclusions. He is right. The European countries have consistently coddled terrorists. Go see "Munich"; that is one of the historical details that Spielberg got right. The USA and Israel are the only two countries in the world that have consistently rejected the use of terrorism as a method of political negotiation.
 

General Gonad

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EB,

If you get a chance, read Finkelstein's latest book, Beyond Chutzpah. As for Munich, it is on my must see list.

Thanks,

GG
 

General Gonad

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EagerBeaver said:
Finkelstein's piece sounds more like a personal attack on Dershowitz than an intelligent discussion of the issues.

The USA and Israel are the only two countries in the world that have consistently rejected the use of terrorism as a method of political negotiation.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that point made me chuckle since you obviously do not include state sanctioned terrorism in your definition of terrorism. See Chomsky's comment by clicking on the link at the end of this review of his works:


It seems to me that everyone in the West is either worried or apathetic about stopping global terrorism, whilst the majority are quite happy to support those, albeit passively, who perpetuate the greatest terrorist activities on the planet, i.e. the US and her 'coalition of the willing' led by multinational corporations. It's more than ironic that the US, who are biggest supporters on state-sanctioned, and otherwise, terrorism in history, can lead a 'war against terrorism'. As those who have sworn to be people of the truth, let's keep declaring the truth about these things. Unfortunately, our media, the main source of our news, is either not free or afraid to tell us the truth about these things. Fortunately, God gave the web (and brains!)


so that we can more easily access the many other smaller voices out there who dare to speak the truth in love! I have long been an avid reader of, and listener to, Noam Chomsky, a professor in the Department of Linguistics and Philosophy at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I believe that he is a voice of reason in a mad world. May I commend his writings to you, most of which are interviews. I picked up his latest offering at Dymocks for about $30 - a book called Power and Terror which came with a (poorly produced) DVD of some of the interviews and speeches he gave. You might not agree with everything, or even anything , he has to say, but we are foolish if we ignore his voice. Some of his stuff can also be accessed via the web. If you would like to follow him up, check out:

http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/chomsky.htm
 
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Galactica

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Unlike EB, I will give a slight hint on my past.

I go by many names: I have a generic Western name, I have a Canadian name and I now have an American name...but my real name is Arabic. For my own protection, I had to shed my past and live under a new persona.

I lived in both Gaza and in the West Bank until my early 20's. I migrated to Canada, then the US in the late 1990's. My family had to flee that part of the world and hide our identities because we couldn't take the corruption of Yasser Araphat, the brutality of Hamas thugs, and the "cult of death" that surrounds my people.

In the mid-1990's, my father almost made a fatal mistake...he spoke his mind. He actually believed in peace. He believed that in our lifetime, if Yasser would just kick the bucket, if we embraced the rule-of-law, if we focused more on our own problems, if just started to act like civilized people we would have a homeland (or something close to it). We would prosper, build an economy, regain our identity and reclaim our souls. But it appears that a good portion of my people just want the quick and easy way out. We've been used by outside entities, we've been pawns in other people's chess games, we've been brainwashed into a hate where even our children have become suicide weapons.

My father spoke his mind and it nearly cost us our lives. If it wasn't for a last-minute phone call by an old-time friend, me and my family would had been killed. We literally ran for our lives in the middle of the night...my last image of my home was that of armed men jumping out of pickups and kicking down the front door.

So, you see, I believe I have a better perspective on this. Even more than the dear Mr. Finkelstein, Dr. Chomsky or General Gonad.

General Gonad, let me do something I can't say or do in my old homeland. I will tolerate your beliefs, your point of view, and your perspective, but I must respectfully disagree. When my people can do what I just did, then, we'll have hope.
 

General Gonad

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Galactica,

Thank you for sharing your personal experience on the brutality of Hamas. First, let me emphatically state that I am not a supporter of Hamas but I understand why they were elected given the rampant corruption in the Fatah party. Second, I am no expert on the subject and I never pretended to be. I am more sympathetic to Finkelstein and Chomsky than Dershowitz and I have read a lot on this issue. Finally, your views are not shared by all Palestinians in your homeland. You can dismiss them as brainwashed tyrants but they believe in a cause and they have been oppressed for many years by the Israeli army.

That is all I have to add on this thread.

GG
 

JustBob

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Calling Noam Chomsky a "voice of reason" is a tad disturbing. The man might be a brilliant linguist but when it comes to politics, he's a left wing extremist who has often shown very poor knowledge and understanding of history. His views are often overly simplistic if not seriously deluded, blinded by his "true socialist revolution agenda". Chomsky called Mao Tse-tung's China "a relatively livable and just society" only a few years after the worst famine in human history, blissfully unaware that the "collectivism" he was so staunchly supporting was the cause of the famine. He tried to rationalize the violence commited by the National Liberation Front which was trying to gain control of South Vietnam. He also praised Pol Pot and the coming to power of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia again trying to rationalize the violence because it was a small price to pay in order to achieve the greater good of the "social revolution". And when a couple of books came out accusing the Pol Pot regime of mass killings which amounted to genocide, Chomsky, who had reviewed both books, acccused the authors of publishing little more than anti-communist propaganda. Such a man can hardly be called "a voice of reason".

And this coming from (me) a leftist who is often extremely critical of the right and especially of the foreign policy of the US.
 
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EagerBeaver

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Galactica,

I am sorry to hear about what happened to your family. Unfortunately there are too many people who have tales to tell that are similar to yours. The talented Palestinian people who want peace are "Israeli collaborators" and "traitors" and if they do not leave, they are executed. How many innocent Palestinians have been executed under the guise of being Israeli spies? I am glad you were able to get out when you did.
 

General Gonad

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For some reason, my response to JustBob keeps getting deleted even though I respected all the posting rules on courtesy:

i) All posters are expected to show the utmost respect and courtesy in all communications. Refrain from name calling, unjustified accusations etc.
ii) Having a difference of opinions is natural, healthy and can lead to positive conclusions. Exchanges of this nature are permitted and encouraged just as long as they are done so intelligently. Please conduct yourself accordingly.



GG
 
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Mod 6

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General Gonad said:
i) All posters are expected to show the utmost respect and courtesy in all communications. Refrain from name calling, unjustified accusations etc.
GG
Thank you GG,

This is what we are afraid of. We understand that people have views and opinions but MERB is not a political board. We ask all members to be respecful in this thread.

We don't volunteer to monitor between the thin line personal opinions on politics and disrespect. It is easy to disgrace in this political debate.

So far we thank all members for being respectful.
 

CaptRenault

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Hamas and the importance of education

you're right that Hamas places a lot of importance on the value and importance of education. In fact, Hamas describes in some detail how it views education in its own 1988 charter, a copy of which can be found on the Yale University Law School Web site (as part of the law school's Avalon Project for Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy).

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

Here's what it says about the importance of education:

...The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam...

...Article Fifteen:

The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). ..

...The Education of the Generations:

Article Sixteen:

It is necessary to follow Islamic orientation in educating the Islamic generations in our region by teaching the religious duties, comprehensive study of the Koran, the study of the Prophet's Sunna (his sayings and doings), and learning about Islamic history and heritage from their authentic sources. This should be done by specialised and learned people, using a curriculum that would healthily form the thoughts and faith of the Moslem student. Side by side with this, a comprehensive study of the enemy, his human and financial capabilities, learning about his points of weakness and strength, and getting to know the forces supporting and helping him, should also be included. Also, it is important to be acquainted with the current events, to follow what is new and to study the analysis and commentaries made of these events. Planning for the present and future, studying every trend appearing, is a must so that the fighting Moslem would live knowing his aim, objective and his way in the midst of what is going on around him...


...E. Nationalist and Religious Groupings, Institutions, Intellectuals, The Arab and Islamic World:

The Islamic Resistance Movement hopes that all these groupings will side with it in all spheres, would support it, adopt its stand and solidify its activities and moves, work towards rallying support for it so that the Islamic people will be a base and a stay for it, supplying it with strategic depth an all human material and informative spheres, in time and in place. This should be done through the convening of solidarity conferences, the issuing of explanatory bulletins, favourable articles and booklets, enlightening the masses regarding the Palestinian issue, clarifying what confronts it and the conspiracies woven around it. They should mobilize the Islamic nations, ideologically, educationally and culturally, so that these peoples would be equipped to perform their role in the decisive battle of liberation, just as they did when they vanquished the Crusaders and the Tatars and saved human civilization. Indeed, that is not difficult for Allah...

...Article Thirty:

Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.
 

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The North Korean regime places a lot of importance on the value and importance of education as well. The question is how do you define "education".
 

CaptRenault

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Gee, I didn't know that there are followers of Hamas in Montreal. I wonder what the gentleman described below meant when he said "Next time, we'll strike harder." Doesn't he know that Hamas is a peace-loving organization that is mainly interested in improving education. Anyway, I'm sure that he learned his lesson from his brutally tough 2 year prison sentence. Maybe he'd like to become a teacher now. That would be good.

United Talmud Torahs arsonist to be released
Will be prohibited from associating with activists once he's paroled in May
The Gazette
Published: Friday, February 03, 2006

A man convicted of what was considered a rare act of terrorism on Canadian soil is scheduled to be released in May, two years after he set fire to a children's library at a Jewish school.

After being denied parole twice last year, Sleiman El-Merhebi is to be released after he serves two-thirds of his sentence for arson. The 20-year-old was convicted of torching the United Talmud Torahs school library in St. Laurent on the eve of Passover in April 2004.

When El-Merhebi was sentenced on Jan. 18, 2005, Quebec Court Justice Jean Sirois described the crime as steeped in racism, hate and intolerance.

When El-Merhebi firebombed the school, he left behind a manifesto that made reference to Ahmed Yassin, a Hamas spiritual leader who had been killed by an Israeli missile only weeks earlier. The note vowed: "Next time, we'll strike harder..."
 

Board Stiff

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CaptRenault said:
Doesn't he know that Hamas is a peace-loving organization that is mainly interested in improving education.

Ummmm...what?
This should not be on this board.
Hamas may be less corrupt than Fatah, but they are more incendiary.
The Iranian president is shockingly bringing up traces of Germany in 1933.
Meanwhile, all the bleeding hearts in Montreal are protesting on behalf of "Palestine". Even the word Palestine is meant to be offensive to Hebrews. The word was imposed by the Romans who knew that the "Phillistines" were the vile opponenents of bibilical Israelites. Most "Palestinians" are Hashemites from Jordan or Egyptian, as Arafat was (a pseudonym to invoke the spirituality of the Mountain). The "prophet mohammed" never travelled to Jerusalem, only in his dreams, on the winged horse, Al Baraq. Mohammed was a slave trader that set back women's rights in Islam back, ummm, 1200 years?

Are you the Captain of the Al Aksa Martyr's Brigade?
Islam is antiquated and as a result, is dying off, but not without a fight.
This will be an interesting century.
Bringing up the manifesto of Hamas in their defense is tantamount to quoting the US Constitution to defend Bush II.

The wrath of God looks awfully like an American-engineered Israeli nuclear bomb strapped to the underbelly of the American-given F-16 with those glorious blue stripes on it.
 
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Board Stiff

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Reg,
Islam is engaged in a dying fight against modernity.
1 million arabs won't die off, but Islam will, eventually.
It's not made for this epoque.
Besides, Mohammed coopted the traditions of the Torah/Bible and falsely called himself a prophet.
Yes, 1 billion people will not simply disappear, but the religion will be eradicated.
If the West Bank was in New Jersey, or California, the US Army would roll in and erase their existence. Fortunately for the Palestinians, Israeli Jews are actually quite moderate, modern, sympathetic, and rather secular. Jews are actually a bit too nice, as witnessed in the 1940's.
 

CaptRenault

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regnad said:
...I'm really not familiar with Islam, but the welcome of the Apocalypse by Christian fundamentalists doesn't sit very well with this particular creature of the flesh.

Not familiar with Islam? Do you live in a cave? Evidence of the peaceful, tolerant, loving, nonviolent, benevolent, humane and enlightened nature of Islam is everywhere around us these days. Do you not watch TV or read the news? I am most puzzled. How could anyone today be "not familiar" with Islam? I must confess that, although I am an infidel myself, I am very familiar with the wonderful religion of Islam. Very, very familiar.
 

Lawless

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Islam

Familiar with Islam?
How can one be familiar with Islam......?
How can one be familiar with Catholisism....?
How can one be familiar with Boudhism (sorry for spelling?)....
Familiar????
The wording may have to be revisited!!!!
 
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