I am not talking about the hickey story here
They're not talking about the hickey story either. They're also not talking about the hygiene issue. That's what you're talking about, and what you say may very well be true, but it's not what they were talking about and it's not what the thread is originally discussing either, and that's what they're trying to say to you and the point they're trying to go back to. You guys are arguing across points and at cross purposes to each other so of course you're not going to come to an agreement or a meeting of the minds. The fact is that neither viewpoint need necessarily be either correct or incorrect because the issues aren't aligned, but rather that the issues should be taken into account separately and discussed that way, rather than the apples and oranges happening here. Somebody, it may have been
@Fradi but I can't be arsed to go back and look, suggested that a separate thread be opened if you want to get into specific underlying causes of the other issues so that they can be handled properly, otherwise you might as well be in a politics thread, where everybody yells at everybody else, nobody hears anything, nothing substantial is discussed in any meaningful way and no agreements are reached.
I probably shouldn't have said anything, but these kinds of discussions frustrate the shit out of me.