I hate the Yankees

[EagerBeaver]

Rest of Baseball

You guys really think for one minute that nobody on the Red Sox roster last year was doped? Talk about naive.

The bottom line with the Yankees is that we are talking about rumors and innuendo. From what I have read, Sheffield's steroid use appears to be benign compared to Giambi's and appears to have been mostly to address injury concerns rather than enhance performance. Giambi, on the other hand, has stated that all he was concerned about was enhacing performance and was injecting himself in the ass and belly. From what is known so far, there appears to be a big difference in the Giambi and Sheffield cases. There is no hypocrisy in the differing treatment of the two.

I believe that the Commissioner will suspend Giambi, a deal will be struck with Giambi whereby he walks and the Yankees eat half of his contract (and he loses the rest as punishment for his fraud and misrepresentation), and then the Yankees will either sign Delgado or else they will use Bernie at first and sign Beltran to play center.

Shemaleluver, if you look at Bonds' strikeout totals for the last 3 years they are way down. He hit 73 homers in 2001 and struck out 91 times that year, which is an acceptable level of strikeouts for any power hitter, and certainly an acceptable tradeoff for 73 taters. Since then his strikeout totals have been in the 40s and 50s with similar numbers of at bats. You can forget about the walks when the at bats are the same. The improved contact is simply not the result of steroids. It may be partly the result of different pitching patterns as Bonds is not getting challenged with the kinds of pitches that he will either jack or strike out on.

 

[daydreamer41]

I'm not going to defend Bonds' attitude or actions, but the fact is that he didn't need steroids. He has been performing on a different plane from the rest of the planet since 1992.

Really? Another crock post from Regnad.

Bonds record from 1986 to 1991 for Home runs only:

1986 16
1987 25
1988 24
1989 19
1990 33
1991 25

Total: 142 Average: 6 seasons - 24 per season
Age 22 to 28


Here is Bonds record from 1992 to 1999 for Home runs only:

1992 34
1993 46
1994 37
1995 33
1996 42
1997 40
1998 37
1999 34

Total 303 - Average 8 seasons - 38 per season, not bad, NOT ON A DIFFERENT PLANE FROM THE REST OF THE PLANET.
Age 29 to 35

Here is Bonds record from 1999 to 2004 for Home runs only:

2000 49
2001 73 (definitely on the juice)
2002 46
2003 45
2004 45

Total 258 - Average 5 seasons - 52 per season
Age 36 to 40


Question:

How can a man average 35 percent more home runs from ages 36 to 40 than in his prime at ages 29 to 35?

Jeopardy Answer:

What is STERIODS?

 

[daydreamer41]

Don't fuck with me on this subject, pal. I've done the work. You probably don't know what the terms OPS or SamBat mean, but you'll get no help from me until you get a whole lot politer.

Yeah, what the hell is OPS? or SamBat?

I don't really care. You started the Ruth bashing. Big mouth Bonds is trashing Ruth every chance he gets and you follow suit. The record is for Home Runs, not OPS. Aaron and Ruth hit the home runs the fair and square way. Bonds didn't. So crawl back in your hole.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Schilling had to be doped up

You guys really think for one minute that nobody on the Red Sox roster last year was doped? Talk about naive.

You're absolutely correct! While listening to Curt Schilling being interviewed during the WS celebration party, i couldn't help noticing how doped up he must have been when he suddenly began campaigning for Dubya!

Seriously, Johnny Damon did admit on a national late-night talkshow that he and several of his teamates would do shots prior to several playoffs' games in order to keep warm. Of course, he retracted his comments the following day when things got heated up.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Hypocrisy!

There is some hypocrisy going on in this thread which I will now expose.

(1) I would bet SERIOUS cash that if we were able to somehow extract the collective quantity of steroids and other illegal substances that had been injected into the bodies of Red Sox players over the past 2 years, and then instantaneously inject that extracted mass of goo into the body of RegnaD, he would be dead on arrival to whatever the nearest Vermont hospital is that he lives near. However, if we extracted the amount of steroids Gary Sheffield has injected into his body in the last 2 years and performed the same experiment, RegnaD would live to tell about it.

(2) Nobody has bothered to talk about the pitchers taking steroids. There are several relief pitchers in the National League whose bodies have enlarged noticeably in the last few years. You gonna put asterisks next to the homers that Bonds hit off of these juiced gorillas? Why? I would say if Bonds is juiced and he hits a homer off of a juiced gorilla, that is a fair fight in my book.

STOP THE HYPOCRISY GUYS, ITS LAUGHABLE.

 

[daydreamer41]

eager, the entire problem is that NO player should take steriods. They are dangerous and can trigger cancer in the athlete. Lyle Alzado died with those words (warning) on his mouth. Bonds is going after the records of Ruth and Aaron. He would be no where near either if he didn't take steriods. Pitchers shouldn't take steriods, outfielders or infielders or catchers should not take steriods. I hope that Selig makes good on his observations and intentions of ridding baseball of steriods.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Giambi

Isn't the bottom line production in any business? Giambi hit .250 and .211 the last 2 seasons and could not even make the postseason roster this year despite being given every chance, apparently due to steroids related health issues (dizzy spells, etc.).

Sheffield played with injuries and pain all season this past year, and put up numbers that landed him second to Guerrero in the MVP voting. Sheffield had numerous game winning hits. He contributed to the Yankees and Giambi did not. Sheffield earned his pay. Giambi did not.

It's really quite simple. The Yankees need to improve their team, and Giambi, a contract breaker, does not figure into those plans. He will be cut loose and the Yankees will have a better team next year. And there is nothing wrong with or hypocritical about that. It is just a professional sports team trying to get better. Which is better than a professional sports team that never tries to get better because the owner is more concerned with profits than wins, as is the case with some baseball franchises, but has never been the case with the Yankees. Which is why they have 26 World Championships and nobody else does.

 

[daydreamer41]

No, I don't know who Murray Chass is or do I care who he is. I don't read leftist rags like the NY Times. From what I read in the NY Daily news and the NY Post, both have better sports pages, the Yankees would like to get out of the contract with Giambi. The players would like him to stay.

I have read reports that it is going to be next to impossible for the Yankees to claim breach of contract with Giambi, because Giambi's testimony was confidential by law. Someone leaked it, illegally. His testimony was about activities more than a year ago. In his contract, there is a limitations of a year, meaning the Yankees must make their claims from activities done within a year of the activity.

I doubt that Giambi will go back to steriods giving the consequences. Baseball has to clean up its act starting with the players.

 

[EagerBeaver]

From ESPN.com by Buster Olney

You are Jason Giambi.

You took steroids and, under the specter of a possible perjury charge, you answered honestly. Explicitly. With more detail than anyone has ever heard before. It has been assumed that you and other stars have taken steroids, but the baseball world has never heard anyone say out loud that he pinched a roll of skin on his torso and injected himself, as you did. You shocked everybody.

So now you are the poster boy for steroids. You have graduated from the sports pages to the front pages. The New York Post plucked a picture from your past -- a seething shot, taken when you were a hero and loved for your long-haired moxie -- and superimposed the words "Ban The Bum" over you. Editorial writers are saying you should be kicked out of baseball.

The Yankees are trying to find ways to void your contract and escape the $82 million they owe you, though they would never do so if you still hit like Gary Sheffield. The commissioner is considering disciplining you, suspending you.

You probably have strong legal standing all the way around -- with your contract, with federal prosecutors. But guess what happens if you win: You'll have the most miserable existence of any player in the history of the game.

You'll arrive in spring training, perhaps pulling up in an SUV with tinted windows, and hundreds of reporters will be waiting for you, with cameras and tape recorders and pens poised. You're not a perp but you might as well be doing a perp walk. Except you can't cover your face with a jacket or towel. This is your new life as Mr. Steroids, and you have to deal with it -- if you want to play baseball, if you want your $82 million.

You'll walk into the clubhouse and teammates will be friendly, because you are a good guy, a nice person. But it'll all be very awkward because none of them will know what to say, and nothing that they say will really help you, anyway. You'll get dressed, facing your locker, buttoning a pinstriped jersey that you know the Yankees want to take away from you. Remember how you said that coming to the Yankees was a dream come true? Well, you'll be living a daily nightmare now.

You've still got a job, a spot on the roster, because the Yankees owe you all that money. But you're not the first baseman any more, and you're not the designated hitter. You are Mr. Steroids, so Joe Torre is no longer obligated to guarantee you anything. You will have to earn your playing time, against Tino Martinez or John Olerud or some other first baseman who is not Mr. Steroids.

You'll walk down the runway leading to the dugout, and in your heart, you won't even know if you're a good player any more. You batted .342 in 2001, sure, but that's when you were taking steroids. You led the Yankees in RBI in 2002, batted .314, were the star of new YES Network. But that's when you were taking steroids. Then you hit .250 in 2003, your left knee buckling as you swung the bat. Patellar tendinitis, a prime steroid symptom; it's the runny nose of steroids. Your knee bothered you so much that you failed to start in Game 5 of the World Series -- a moment when you lost the respect of many of your teammates.

Weeks later, you testified before the grand jury, emerged wide-eyed, appearing almost frightened. And when spring training began, you didn't look like a slugger any more; you looked more like a high school kid, with a gaunt face, and slender face and chest. Friends did a double take when you walked in. You looked directly into the camera and said you had stopped eating In-And-Out Burgers. Yeah, that's it. Stopped eating fast foods. Yeah, that's it. And no, I didn't take any steroids, you said.

But you felt awful. You looked awful. You got sick. You played in only half of the games, batted .208, struck out every fourth at-bat, taking a ton of called third strikes. You are not a great athlete, anyway -- now Barry Bonds, he's a great athlete -- and if you had an edge from the steroids you took in previous years, well, that was gone.

And so you retreated. You left the Yankees in the middle of the 2004 season for medical treatment and teammates didn't see you for weeks. You wouldn't talk to reporters because they wanted to ask questions about your health, and you didn't want to answer because you knew where all of that would lead: The "S" word.

You tried to come back in September, and it went badly. You looked brutal at the plate. You couldn't hit. The Yankees are paying you $17 million a year, but you were so bad that they didn't even put you on the postseason roster. You were supposed to be the guy who led the Bombers over the Red Sox and instead you spent all of October quietly clapping in the dugout.

But it'll be worse in spring 2005. You'll be walking to the dugout for your first workout and doubts will be thick in your mind about whether you can hit. And that's when the fans will see you for the first time. And they'll fill your ears with boos.

These are Yankees fans, and they are booing.

Every time you pass by, they yell things at you. Nasty stuff. They are yelling that you are a fraud, a disgrace. Some of them are profane. And then it gets worse. This is what your work environment will be for the rest of your career. You try to concentrate on batting practice, on getting back your swing, and every time you step into the cage or step out, somebody is yelling at you.

You struggle in spring training; Torre picks somebody else to play first base, and somebody else is the DH. You are Jason Giambi, you were the AL MVP in 2000, and you are a bench player.

Your days are filled with lawyers, because your standing is being negotiated, and at night, you go to work and there is no escape. Fans wait outside parks to yell at you, and when you play on the road, they chant "STEEEERRRRRR-OOOOOIIDS" at you, on those rare days when you actually get into the lineup. And at Yankee Stadium, the fans boo you constantly.

You are a sensitive person, anyway, and you are treated like a criminal -- a criminal who gets marched out past the masses every day. You are Jason Giambi, and this could be your life for the next four years. You are making millions of dollars and paying an emotional toll for every nickel.

You won't last as a ballplayer under this sort of duress. No one could. Except for Barry Bonds, perhaps.




Buster Olney is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine. His book, "The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty," is a New York Times best seller and can be ordered through HarperCollins.com.

 

[daydreamer41]

If it isn't in Regnads little world it doesn't exist. NY Daily News article. I'm sure Regnad will have something to say about it.

Players worry most about
his well-being

BY ANTHONY McCARRON
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

On the day that Jason Giambi was quoted publicly for the first time as admitting to steroid use, some of his fellow major leaguers expressed sadness over his choices and concern for his long-term health. They also believed, as one player put it, that "if he was deciding now, he'd take a different road and take his chances on his talent."
Other players refused to discuss Giambi's steroid mess. When asked for his reaction, one Yankee said, "I gotta stay away from this." Other players agreed to talk about it, but only if they could remain anonymous.

However, judging from a limited poll of current and former teammates, Giambi would be welcomed back into the Yankee clubhouse next season, despite his use of banned substances. Tony Clark, who shared time with Giambi at first at times last season, said he was most concerned with Giambi's health - Giambi suffered from an intestinal parasite, a benign tumor on his pituitary gland and various other maladies last season.

"Baseball tends to be secondary when you make the realization that your physical and mental health is not sound," Clark wrote in an E-mail message. "My thoughts and prayers will continue to be with Jason as he and his family deal with what has developed into a very difficult situation."

Another player said he didn't believe any fellow player would look at Giambi differently next season. "Obviously, there's an issue around baseball about steroids," the player said. "He made those decisions, as a man, to take the illegal substance to better his career. Now I believe he's going to have to take full responsibility and the consequences that are to come, both and inside and outside the game and with fans.

"Everyone wants to be on a level playing field. How you perform in this game determines how much you are paid, so everyone wants to be as even as possible so they can make as much money as they can. Maybe some players will be disappointed or mad at Jason, but that's for each person to decide. Everybody has their own issues with performance-enhancing drugs."

But one issue could be Giambi's alone, the player said. "There's the wonder - am I the same player with them or without them?" the player said. "Everyone will scrutinize Jason's numbers. Would he have put up those numbers, had the MVP year, if he wasn't on the steroids? That's going to be tough to disprove. Maybe some of those home runs would not have gone out of the ballpark."

A former teammate of Giambi's said his initial reaction to the news "wasn't that I was furious, but worried about him. He's a great teammate, the kind of guy who makes everybody comfortable.

"But you've got to be naïve to think he's the only one in baseball who's used them."

The ex-teammate added that he never saw Giambi take steroids while with the Yankees. "It's not like anyone says, 'Look at me, I'm using,'" the player said. "I was never offered it there and I never saw it."

Still, according to grand jury testimony quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle, Giambi said he injected himself with human growth hormone in 2003 and was using steroids two years earlier.

"If he had to go back and was deciding now, he might take a different road," a fellow player said.

Originally published on December 3, 2004

 

[EagerBeaver]

Gammons has finally weighed in with a strong piece on espn.com. He corrects a mistaken comment I made yesterday a bit higher in this thread. It is thought, according to Gammons, that more pitchers than hitters are using the juice. Gammons adds Kevin Brown to the mix.

Regna D,

You are basically saying the same thing over and over again. "The Yankees are a bunch of drug addicts." The biggest drug scandal in baseball in the 1980s involved players with the Pittsburgh Pirates. It is a league wide problem and the Red Sox do not have a bunch of clean guys on their team. I previously said there are pitchers juiced and there are a bunch in the National League off of whom Bonds has hit homers. If Bonds is juiced, that is a fair fight, and perhaps even self defense from the Bonds perspective.

And it is patently silly to wonder why nobody on the Yankees team has said anything about Giambi. First of all he let them down. Second, none of them know right now whether he will be a teammate next year who needs to be supported. As I have previously stated I doubt Giambi will wear a Yankees uniform again. I think the Yankees will work out a deal where they eat part of his contract and if you read the Olney article and digested it you realize that this is in Giambi's best interest as well. It is questionable right now whether Giambi will even play again. I watched him during that September tryout and he was not the same player he was in the past, and his bat looked slow to me.

I have made clear my position in earlier posts and at this point we are just going in circles on some of these issues. If someone wants to inject some new issues into the thread they are welcome.

 

[Mod 2]

Hey guys... Calm down.

 

[EagerBeaver]

New Issues

I'll be the first to steer this discussion to new ground. The issue that now arises is whether Jason Giambi should be stripped of his 2000 AL MVP award. The Olympics chief has already said that Marion Jones will be stripped of her gold medals from Sydney if she doped herself. Victor Conte said she did on 20/20. So if you strip her of the gold medals, don't you have to strip Giambi of the 2000 AL MVP award, and give it to the second place finisher that year, Frank Thomas?

 

[daydreamer41]

If it isn't in Regnads little world it doesn't exist. NY Daily News article. I'm sure Regnad will have something to say about it.

You're a fool, dd. What you just put up here is pretty much the same thing I just put up here, quoting Curt Schilling.

Learn to read. And, please, learn to spell sterOIDs. Your spelling reveals your intelligence, or, in your case, lack therof.

Hey regnand you wrote:

Where are Giambi's teammates?

WHY DON'T YOU READ. THE ARTICLE QUOTES GIAMBI'S TEAMMATES, FOOL.

And I steroids incorrectly once and the loser is calling me a fool.

 

[daydreamer41]

Regnad, I know what you think about this subject and I just disagree. They all stink, because for baseball fans who remember Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Willie May, Carl Yazstremski, Rocky C., Harmon Killabrew, Frank Howard, and the older fans who remember Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Gil Hodges, Hank Greenberg, etc., Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire (if he did and he probably did), Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, etc. cheated. They took substances rather than working hard to improve their athletic abilities.

 

[Special K]

Regnad, I know what you think about this subject and I just disagree. They all stink, because for baseball fans who remember Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Willie May, Carl Yazstremski, Rocky C., Harmon Killabrew, Frank Howard, and the older fans who remember Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Gil Hodges, Hank Greenberg, etc., Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire (if he did and he probably did), Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, etc. cheated. They took substances rather than working hard to improve their athletic abilities.

I'm glad we can all agree to something around here..except EB that is. LOL

 

[EagerBeaver]

Regna D,

Excuse me but is there something wrong with wanting to be rid of a player that stinks? Should any team be obligated to keep a player who batted .208 especially when he is being paid a lot of money to hit much higher?

 

[daydreamer41]

I agree it is very very very unlikely that Jason Giambi's contract can be voided. The best thing the Yankees can hope for is that he heals and returns playing at a decent level without any steroids. WIth determination, I think it is possible that Giambi can produce some decent stats.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Giambi

Giambi did not show his typical patience at the plate last year. Unless you count taking called third strikes as being indicative of patience.

 

[Doc Holliday]

The Sports Guy (ESPN.com)

Check out the recent installment of 'The Sports Guy' on ESPN.com's site. He gives his views of the recent Bonds/Giambi/Balco fiasco. I found it hillarious!!

www.espn.com