Malarek insults Stella, SPoC, etc.

[CaptRenault]

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/633275

In defence of women who want to sell sex
Columnist says book tells only half the story
May 13, 2009
ANTONIA ZERBISIAS
Living columist

Victor Malarek is practically shouting over the phone.

Maybe it's because he's talking on his mobile, on his way to satisfy a craving for strawberries and ice cream.

More likely because the investigative reporter, formerly with CBC's the fifth estate and now with CTV's W-FIVE, is frustrated with my objections to his new book, The Johns: Sex for Sale and the Men Who Buy It...

Thanks for pointing out this column, Lou. It's a very good critique of Malarek and his fellow anti-prostitution crusaders. Not many reporters are willing to stand up to Malarek because of the sensitive nature of the subject matter that is his obsession. Most writers are afraid of being labeled as "pro-trafficking" or "pro slavery" if they dare to contradict Malarek's wildly exagerated and unsubstantiated claims. Ms. Zerbisias chooses not to accept Malarek's ranting and I applaud her for that.

 

[naughtylady]

Whether there has ever been a conviction or not does not stop cops from threatening SPs in order to get a confession. They show the girl the statute and tell her how much worse it will be if... The girl gets scared and does what she thinks she has to in order to protect her family or loved ones.

Also the difference between pimp and boyfriend is not always black and white. When you live in shades of grey; the police and media might call him a pimp; she calls him her boyfriend.

Where do we draw the line? In any other business, a woman supporting her boyfriend/common-law/husband who is not working: no problem. A prostitute who supports a boyfriend/common-law/husband who is not otherwise working: well that all depends.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[Miss Maria]

Funny how in English you BECOME a prostitute, as if your whole identity completely disapeared and you are now uni-dimentional.

In french you do the act of prostituting. hmmm.

 

[Miss Maria]

Does this show that the French are more open about sexuality and sexual practices? To my eyes, the french version seems more accurate.

 

[sapman99]

Va raconter ça aux pompiers

merb, les autres forums de discussion, dont le mandat premier est de fournir une niche à des fins promotionellis, ne sont pas des tribunes crédibles pour y mener le combat des tds et les énergies qui, en ce sens, y sont déployées ne sont pas mieux que gaspillées pour peu qu’elles ne produisent pas d’effet contre-productif - parenthèse fermée.

Là je suis d`accord avec toi. Sauf que ça marche des deux bords: si ces genres de forums ne sont pas crédibles pour y mener une lutte ``pour`` la prostitution, ils ne sont donc pas plus crédibles pour y mener une lutte ``contre``. En tout cas c`est ma lecture . Demandons donc aux filles indépendantes si les forums les ont aidées à se regrouper, échanger de l`info sur les bons ou mauvais clients, aidé certaines autres filles à trouver l`agence qui répondait le mieux à leurs attentes, etc.

Il va de soi que Malarek manque de rigueur

Heureux de te voir l`écrire. Que ce soit d`un côté ou de l`autre, je perds rapidement intérêt dès qu`on commence à distortionner trop pour tenter d`imposer ``notre`` optique. Guess qui me reste plus beaucoup de lecture à faire ici .

Va raconter ça aux pompiers

 

[Marie Montreal]

Stella and getting out of the trade

Originally Posted by eastender

… a significant number of the community organizations in east central Montreal and virtually ALL of them are better equipped to help a sex worker who wants to leave the trade than Stella.

Let's be realistic. If an alcoholic wants to stop drinking then going to a bar…

If I follow your logic, the alcoholics are the sex workers and the bar is Stella? We dont go to Stella to work, Stella is not a brothel and sex workers are not addicted to sex work neither. Its an office where a team of about 10 women work full time next to a joint living room and kitchen where women with a variety of experiences related to sex work meet and exchange. Most of the women who frequent Stella go there to see a doctor, get legal advice, support after a bad experience. Once in a while, Stella organizes sex workers gathering, often with a thematic related to working conditions. Its not a sex workers lounge where women share cocktails while counting their money listening to electronic beats. The organisation, as you can see on their webiste subsists with government funding and donations from major charity organisations. Most employees are women who have been involved in the sex industry, some were street prostitutes on drugs and others were independent escort or strippers. For some it was easy, for others not. I dont perceive Stella's ladies as a group of blind radical lunatic happy hookers in Dior shoes. If it was the case, I dont believe that l'Agence de santé publique du Canada and others would still give them money after 14 years of activities. I also doubt the Fédération des femmes du Québec, le Ministère de la Santé and others would have honored Stella if the organization was that unrealistic and ineffective.

If you read Stella's Annual Report, visit their office or assist to any public presentations they do - and they do a lot - you would testify by yourself that Stella is offering services and support to all sex workers, including the ones who want to get out of the trade. You claim that ALL Centre-Sud community groups are more equipped than Stella to help these women out. Stella works in collaboration with most Centre-Sud groups. For years, all together, these organisations have been asking publicly for more beds in women shelters, fastest access to detox, more social housing, and the list goes on. For women who wish to get out of the trade, Stella offers all kind of tips - how to do a CV after 5 years without a legit job, how to budget, what aptitude you might have develop as a sex worker that you can use for other jobs, etc. Stella has also help women going back to school, finding a safe place to stay and help them deal with legal problems that could have force them back to the street when they didnt wanted to. If you read ConStellation, the magazine they publish (about 15 issues), you can see that no woman have been censured. The ones who hate sucking cocks for money and want their tricks in jail are saying it out loud with crude words and graphics free of any censorship by Stella.

That said, what I wonder now is how many women seek help when they stop providing services and help for what? From what I understand, the one's who look for help when in transition are mainly women with multiple problems such as drug addiction or domestic violence. The change they need is not primarily related to sex work. What should Stella or any other organisations do apart from what they already do? Do like the American's moralist missions in Thailand: raid the brothels to "save the "sex slave" and make sure the women stay poor by teaching them how to sew? What should be done for us here when we want to stop? Put us all together under the same roof to teach us how to cook? I honestly dont think there is a bigger need than what Stella and the Centre-Sud and Ville Marie community organizations already do.

Some are complaining that no other option than Stella and La Cles (the abolitionist organization), exists. I dont see what other option should be offered? One that promotes statu quo? Not for me! If any of you have a better idea, i would be please to hear it.

 

[eastender]

No................

If I follow your logic, the alcoholics are the sex workers and the bar is Stella? We dont go to Stella to work, Stella is not a brothel and sex workers are not addicted to sex work neither. Its an office where a team of about 10 women work full time next to a joint living room and kitchen where women with a variety of experiences related to sex work meet and exchange. Most of the women who frequent Stella go there to see a doctor, get legal advice, support after a bad experience. Once in a while, Stella organizes sex workers gathering, often with a thematic related to working conditions. Its not a sex workers lounge where women share cocktails while counting their money listening to electronic beats. The organisation, as you can see on their webiste subsists with government funding and donations from major charity organisations. Most employees are women who have been involved in the sex industry, some were street prostitutes on drugs and others were independent escort or strippers. For some it was easy, for others not. I dont perceive Stella's ladies as a group of blind radical lunatic happy hookers in Dior shoes. If it was the case, I dont believe that l'Agence de santé publique du Canada and others would still give them money after 14 years of activities. I also doubt the Fédération des femmes du Québec, le Ministère de la Santé and others would have honored Stella if the organization was that unrealistic and ineffective.

If you read Stella's Annual Report, visit their office or assist to any public presentations they do - and they do a lot - you would testify by yourself that Stella is offering services and support to all sex workers, including the ones who want to get out of the trade. You claim that ALL Centre-Sud community groups are more equipped than Stella to help these women out. Stella works in collaboration with most Centre-Sud groups. For years, all together, these organisations have been asking publicly for more beds in women shelters, fastest access to detox, more social housing, and the list goes on. For women who wish to get out of the trade, Stella offers all kind of tips - how to do a CV after 5 years without a legit job, how to budget, what aptitude you might have develop as a sex worker that you can use for other jobs, etc. Stella has also help women going back to school, finding a safe place to stay and help them deal with legal problems that could have force them back to the street when they didnt wanted to. If you read ConStellation, the magazine they publish (about 15 issues), you can see that no woman have been censured. The ones who hate sucking cocks for money and want their tricks in jail are saying it out loud with crude words and graphics free of any censorship by Stella.

That said, what I wonder now is how many women seek help when they stop providing services and help for what? From what I understand, the one's who look for help when in transition are mainly women with multiple problems such as drug addiction or domestic violence. The change they need is not primarily related to sex work. What should Stella or any other organisations do apart from what they already do? Do like the American's moralist missions in Thailand: raid the brothels to "save the "sex slave" and make sure the women stay poor by teaching them how to sew? What should be done for us here when we want to stop? Put us all together under the same roof to teach us how to cook? I honestly dont think there is a bigger need than what Stella and the Centre-Sud and Ville Marie community organizations already do.

Some are complaining that no other option than Stella and La Cles (the abolitionist organization), exists. I dont see what other option should be offered? One that promotes statu quo? Not for me! If any of you have a better idea, i would be please to hear it.

No you don't follow my logic.

The issue is rather straightforward - wanting to leave the sex trade. Simply this means getting back into the mainstream of society.

The various issues you raise are red herrings. CV after five years without a job. No different from drug addicts, ex-cons, etc who have not had jobs for similar periods. When drug addicts and ex-cons want to integrate back into scociety they do so by AVOIDING drug addicts and criminals. Ask the obvious question - who would a sex worker trying to leave the industry run into at Stella - rather obvious, active sex workers trying to get help for sex work related problems. Far from the ideal mix or environment if someone is trying to leave.

You are correct that there are multiple levels of help that may be required BUT at each level there are community organizations better equipped to offer the specific service required.

 

[naughtylady]

No you don't follow my logic.

The issue is rather straightforward - wanting to leave the sex trade. Simply this means getting back into the mainstream of society.

The various issues you raise are red herrings. CV after five years without a job. No different from drug addicts, ex-cons, etc who have not had jobs for similar periods. When drug addicts and ex-cons want to integrate back into society they do so by AVOIDING drug addicts and criminals. Ask the obvious question - who would a sex worker trying to leave the industry run into at Stella - rather obvious, active sex workers trying to get help for sex work related problems. Far from the ideal mix or environment if someone is trying to leave.

You are correct that there are multiple levels of help that may be required BUT at each level there are community organizations better equipped to offer the specific service required.

Who would a sex worker run into at Stella: More often than not: women who used to be sex workers, who have left the business working in an office. Who do you think? A bunch of active SW trying to convince her to see another John?

An addict trying to get back into mainstream society needs lots of help and support, the kind offered by groups who have experience working with addicts; often people who who work at these places are recovering addicts who have been there and done that.

As for Stella, when you go to their office you generally see a bunch of ex-sexworkers working in an office and if you did not already know that the were ex-sex workers there is no indication. Personally these are precisely the women who understand the difficulties involved in getting out. Better than anyone else. Most SW when they want out are very afraid of being judged. The stigma is powerful and frightening.

Why do you think that a girl who wants out would be influenced to stay in if she meets another SW who is there because she needs help with her problems? It is not like one SP is going to encourage another to do another trick! It is not like she is going to be offered a john! I just do not get the comparison to addiction!


Lou Simone>>>> YOu said it wonderfully! I had been avoiding jumping in here because EE has clearly never visited Stella's offices or been to any one of their public presentations or has a clear idea as to what they are all about.

They are women who have been there, done that, tossed the condom and moved on. They are women who have gotten out and can say this is how I did it, you can get out also. They are women who went back to school as adults after having dropped out before getting the skills and education to "get a real job". They are women who understand the frustrations, stigma, and pain. They are women who quit hard drugs and started a new life. They are women who have lived everything they have lived.

Why wouldn't the women at Stella not be ideally placed to help other women who want out get out? Because the supply condoms to those who are still active? Because the offer free anonymous STI testing and gynaecological services? Oh I know because they offer needle exchange to addicted SWs!

The vast majority of Stella's clientèle never come to the offices. They meet with outreach workers who are in the streets at night, talking to the girls on the corner, visiting the strippers in their place of work.

The ones who go to their GTs include EX-SWs who are there to support the ones who are still working.

I realize that most prostitutes do not have it as good as I do. I know I am lucky. I also admire those who got out.

You seem to think Stella is all about encouraging women to stay in the sex industry. What they are about is dignity for all. Human rights for all. and of course self-empowerment. Hmmm what did I forget? Of yes, assertiveness training. Respecting your limits and making sure everyone else does also (because if you do not respect your own limits: nobody else will!)

EE>>>> why do you have such a beef against Stella? NOTESarcastic comment ahead Because they encourage CBJs?

I am getting myself worked up here so I am signing off now.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[eastender]

Stella / L'itineraire etc

Who would a sex worker run into at Stella: More often than not: women who used to be sex workers, who have left the business working in an office. Who do you think? A bunch of active SW trying to convince her to see another John?

An addict trying to get back into mainstream society needs lots of help and support, the kind offered by groups who have experience working with addicts; often people who who work at these places are recovering addicts who have been there and done that.

As for Stella, when you go to their office you generally see a bunch of ex-sexworkers working in an office and if you did not already know that the were ex-sex workers there is no indication. Personally these are precisely the women who understand the difficulties involved in getting out. Better than anyone else. Most SW when they want out are very afraid of being judged. The stigma is powerful and frightening.

Why do you think that a girl who wants out would be influenced to stay in if she meets another SW who is there because she needs help with her problems? It is not like one SP is going to encourage another to do another trick! It is not like she is going to be offered a john! I just do not get the comparison to addiction!


Lou Simone>>>> YOu said it wonderfully! I had been avoiding jumping in here because EE has clearly never visited Stella's offices or been to any one of their public presentations or has a clear idea as to what they are all about.

They are women who have been there, done that, tossed the condom and moved on. They are women who have gotten out and can say this is how I did it, you can get out also. They are women who went back to school as adults after having dropped out before getting the skills and education to "get a real job". They are women who understand the frustrations, stigma, and pain. They are women who quit hard drugs and started a new life. They are women who have lived everything they have lived.

Why wouldn't the women at Stella not be ideally placed to help other women who want out get out? Because the supply condoms to those who are still active? Because the offer free anonymous STI testing and gynaecological services? Oh I know because they offer needle exchange to addicted SWs!

The vast majority of Stella's clientèle never come to the offices. They meet with outreach workers who are in the streets at night, talking to the girls on the corner, visiting the strippers in their place of work.

The ones who go to their GTs include EX-SWs who are there to support the ones who are still working.

I realize that most prostitutes do not have it as good as I do. I know I am lucky. I also admire those who got out.

You seem to think Stella is all about encouraging women to stay in the sex industry. What they are about is dignity for all. Human rights for all. and of course self-empowerment. Hmmm what did I forget? Of yes, assertiveness training. Respecting your limits and making sure everyone else does also (because if you do not respect your own limits: nobody else will!)

EE>>>> why do you have such a beef against Stella? NOTESarcastic comment ahead Because they encourage CBJs?

I am getting myself worked up here so I am signing off now.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

NL - making assumptions as usual. Of course you havevisited the various community organizations that are in H/M/VM that would allow you to compare.

Visited Stella, when they were relatively new and I was handling security for a number of community organizations in H/M/VM. Have tracked their efforts and other organizations like l'Itineraire that work in the area.

The basic problem from my perspective is that Stella does not have the depth in expertise to deal with the day to day issues of getting an education,
caring for kids,finding a job, resisting the cravings of a drug addiction, etc.

The various community organizations do have such resources and more. The community workers regularly hear that - "So and so from Stella or l'itineraire sent me." Conversely no SW, to my knowledge, would be told to go see Stella by one of these organizations.Might as well save some time and go directly to the one most qualified to help.

 

[Marie Montreal]

Stella: one last time

NL - making assumptions as usual. Of course you havevisited the various community organizations that are in H/M/VM that would allow you to compare.

Visited Stella, when they were relatively new and I was handling security for a number of community organizations in H/M/VM. Have tracked their efforts and other organizations like l'Itineraire that work in the area.

The basic problem from my perspective is that Stella does not have the depth in expertise to deal with the day to day issues of getting an education,
caring for kids,finding a job, resisting the cravings of a drug addiction, etc.

The various community organizations do have such resources and more. The community workers regularly hear that - "So and so from Stella or l'itineraire sent me." Conversely no SW, to my knowledge, would be told to go see Stella by one of these organizations.Might as well save some time and go directly to the one most qualified to help.

I really wonder how come a group of 10 women, half of them with bachelor in social work and sexology combine with the experience of sex work and for some strong drug addiction problems could not help sex workers and other women on how to take care of kids or deal with a drug craving? Maybe you assume that because they are ex-hookers they are too stupid and need 2 bachelors to be able to help... FYI, half of the women at Stella are mothers, I think they know quite well how to take care of kids. And again, regarding Centre-Sud's organisations, not only they do send women to Stella, but they do outreach with Stella team and work together on many projects.

I honestly think that just like Malarek, you dont know what your talking about. But at least, you dont make a career out of it...

 

[eastender]

Ten

I really wonder how come a group of 10 women, half of them with bachelor in social work and sexology combine with the experience of sex work and for some strong drug addiction problems could not help sex workers and other women on how to take care of kids or deal with a drug craving? Maybe you assume that because they are ex-hookers they are too stupid and need 2 bachelors to be able to help... FYI, half of the women at Stella are mothers, I think they know quite well how to take care of kids. And again, regarding Centre-Sud's organisations, not only they do send women to Stella, but they do outreach with Stella team and work together on many projects.

I honestly think that just like Malarek, you dont know what your talking about. But at least, you dont make a career out of it...

There are serious limits to what ten people regardless how well intended can do. You need diversity in an organization - degrees in education, psychology, economics, administration, recreation, etc.

The various and multiple community organizations in Centre Sud, Hochelaga / Maisonneuve, Mercier, ParK Ex, St. Michel, Rosemont, Petite Patrie, Le Plateau have access to 60 plus people in their youth division alone, with similar structures in place for adult and "troisieme age" if that is part of their mandate.Compare the human resources of JS/SY to Stella and you will get the point.

 

[naughtylady]

There are serious limits to what ten people regardless how well intended can do. You need diversity in an organization - degrees in education, psychology, economics, administration, recreation, etc.

The various and multiple community organizations in Centre Sud, Hochelaga / Maisonneuve, Mercier, ParK Ex, St. Michel, Rosemont, Petite Patrie, Le Plateau have access to 60 plus people in their youth division alone, with similar structures in place for adult and "troisieme age" if that is part of their mandate.Compare the human resources of JS/SY to Stella and you will get the point.

JS/SY?
I was thinking about your post that I responded to yesterday.

You seem to think that it would be disastrous for a SW to go to Stella for support to get out of the business.

No different from drug addicts, ex-cons, etc who have not had jobs for similar periods. When drug addicts and ex-cons want to integrate back into scociety they do so by AVOIDING drug addicts and criminals. Ask the obvious question - who would a sex worker trying to leave the industry run into at Stella - rather obvious, active sex workers trying to get help for sex work related problems. Far from the ideal mix or environment if someone is trying to leave.

What is your take on AA, NA, etc.? Apparently at least as effective as many therapies offered, if not more so; yet every meeting is full of clean addicts and sober alcoholics...

BTW, I discovered Stella after being referred to them by another organization.

Also not all effective community organizations have 60 plus people. Also what do you know about the education of the women who work at Stella?

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[metoo4]

EE, you are saying so yourself: Stella refers some peoples to more specialized groups when the case is too complex for them. They act as a "filter" and can help lots of girls doing so. Not every case requires specialized care. It would be a huge problem if Stella would empower itself as the sole solution provider but that's not the case.

Also, Stella have what any combination of diplomas will never offer, no matter how many you might have. It's the "been there, did that" factor. Some of the peoples going to Stella are disillusioned from society in general and don't trust the system anymore. Stella offers a common ground with it's "been there, did that" workers so the clientele can identify without feeling they are being judged or forced into anything until they are ready to do so. Why do you think these customers didn't go to the government groups right away? They first went to Stella and, if required and when ready, they followed Stella's recommendation to seek help at a higher level, knowing Stella would be there to back them up.

Being an SP isn't an addiction. Comparing it to alcoholism or drug abuse is ridiculous. Drugs and alcohol can lead to prostitution, the opposite is also true but, if you take the drugs and alcohol out of the equation, prostitution can still work perfectly well, without any adverse side-effects.

For your reasoning to be valid, groups like AA should be avoided since the alcoholic will meet with other alcoholics while there. Alcoholism and drug abuse are chronic, any recovering addict of that kind know very well he'll likely fall if he ever touch the stuff again. Being an SP doesn't involve this risk. It's like a mechanic: he can quit being a mechanic tomorrow and study to become a lawyer. Even if he still fix his car himself, even if he help some buddies once in a while, he's no longer a mechanic and these action won't make him go back to doing mechanic for a living, unless he consciously make the choice to return. He won't be forced by the trade, like an alcoholic would physically be forced by his booze.

 

[eastender]

Making Assumptions

JS/SY?
I was thinking about your post that I responded to yesterday.

You seem to think that it would be disastrous for a SW to go to Stella for support to get out of the business.



What is your take on AA, NA, etc.? Apparently at least as effective as many therapies offered, if not more so; yet every meeting is full of clean addicts and sober alcoholics...

BTW, I discovered Stella after being referred to them by another organization.

Also not all effective community organizations have 60 plus people. Also what do you know about the education of the women who work at Stella?

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

JS/SY = Jeunesse Soleil or Sun Youth. Trust you have heard of them.

SW going to Stella to get out of the business? Have to ask the other question. If someone wanted to become an SW would they go to Stella for a balanced presentation about risks, career opportunities, etc? Probably not.

So what makes Stella the best choice if an SW wants to get out of the business? Do they have a track record of success? Can they network jobs for a former SW? Can they facilitate grants or scholarships for SWs wishing to return to school? Until such questions are answered with valid verifiable data then I am skeptical.

AA or NA. They are effective BUT they do not meet in bars or shooting galleries nor do they have active drinkers or users present. The separation is required.

Effective. Depends how you define effective? The biggest obstacle is building trust. An organization that can respond to the various existing needs and potential future needs avoids the situation where a fragile person is bounced
around the borough and frustrated. The more that can be accomplished under one roof the better the chances for success. Granted there are niche organizations that are very effective with very small staffs but this is not the issue at hand.

If you were referred to Stella because of a "Bad Trick" or SW related experience then the person in the organization simply did the job properly. Like referring someone with an obviously broken arm to a hospital. There is now implied association, affiliation, or relationship of any kind.

Education. Take what people tell me at face value but with a grain of salt.Comes down to what gets done - the results.

 

[gugu]

Comes down to what gets done - the results.

I agree with you. Looking at the results is certainly the best way to compare the organisations. We can argue a lot about what are the best organisations, the ones offering the best services. But results talk like nothing else.

So, why don't you tell us a bit about those results? Would you name a few community organisations downtown Montréal that succeed in both reaching SW and help them out of the business. I insist first of all on reaching, because it is the first step and because it is certainly a basic indicator of the performance of the organisations. Globally, how do you compare the results of those organisations with the ones of Stella?

 

[eastender]

Rather Disingenious

I agree with you. Looking at the results is certainly the best way to compare the organisations. We can argue a lot about what are the best organisations, the ones offering the best services. But results talk like nothing else.

So, why don't you tell us a bit about those results? Would you name a few community organisations downtown Montréal that succeed in both reaching SW and help them out of the business. I insist first of all on reaching, because it is the first step and because it is certainly a basic indicator of the performance of the organisations. Globally, how do you compare the results of those organisations with the ones of Stella?

You are being rather cute given the well known lack of valid statistical data for the sex trade in the Montreal area. JAG had stated this on various occassions and others are well aware of this as well. SWs do not come with special papers or identification so no one knows the exact numbers to begin with. Also I would not classify the SW activity as a business. I would call it a lifestyle.

Reaching. This covers various organizations. Youth organizations reach SWs via their kids by waving the registration fees for activities - sports, the arts, field trips, etc. This reduces the financial need factor and draws the SW to the community spawning integration, building networks, job opportunities and support groups. Also it is a very positive experience. I still remember the shocked look of an SW when she was asked to accompany her daughter's figure skating group to an out of town event.

The measure of these organizations is that they grow. The various levels of government see the success, identify a need and give them more responsibility and funding. A good idea poorly managed gets transferred to an organization with sound management. Likewise private benefactors and foundations see that positive results and increase their involvement.

Various tenants rights, food banks, clothing depots and adult groups also reach out to SWs by offering shelter,appropriate legal, social, educational advice and opportunities. The simple act of caring - be it food, clothing, toys for the kids, advice or an attentive ear and a smile at the local neighbourhood level make a big difference and start the reaching process.

As for naming the organizations - if they wish to go public on this venue they are perfectly capable of doing so on their own. Just as Chez Stella is perfectly capable of presenting its results on this venue should they choose to.

Global comparisons. Somehow you have this misguided impression that it is a competition - a league with standings, play-offs, trophies, etc. It's not - just daily life.

 

[gugu]

You are being rather cute given the well known lack of valid statistical data for the sex trade in the Montreal area.

We are not talking about sex trade statistics. We are talking about commununity organisation statistics. That, we have. You say they do a better job by looking at the results. What counts is the results as you say.

Reaching. This covers various organizations. Youth organizations reach SWs via their kids by waving the registration fees for activities - sports, the arts, field trips, etc. This reduces the financial need factor and draws the SW to the community spawning integration, building networks, job opportunities and support groups. Also it is a very positive experience. I still remember the shocked look of an SW when she was asked to accompany her daughter's figure skating group to an out of town event.

You say they reach SW. How many? Where?

The measure of these organizations is that they grow.

Not sufficient! Give us some data to back that statement. Show us how they reach more SW today than 10 years ago. If they are serious organisations, they compile statistics on that. People who finance them ask for those statistics.

Various tenants rights, food banks, clothing depots and adult groups also reach out to SWs by offering shelter,appropriate legal, social, educational advice and opportunities. The simple act of caring - be it food, clothing, toys for the kids, advice or an attentive ear and a smile at the local neighbourhood level make a big difference and start the reaching process.

I'm not asking what they do. I know that GM sell cars. We are interested in knowing if they succeed to provide them to a specific clientele.

As for naming the organizations - if they wish to go public on this venue they are perfectly capable of doing so on their own. Just as Chez Stella is perfectly capable of presenting its results on this venue should they choose to.

You must be kidding. As if this was information to be kept secret. These organisations are publicly financed and they have annual reports, usually made public.

Global comparisons. Somehow you have this misguided impression that it is a competition - a league with standings, play-offs, trophies, etc. It's not - just daily life.

I think you are the one who introduced the idea of competition by stating, obviously without the slightest idea of what you are talking about, the idea that community organisations do better than Stella in supporting SW who want to leave this business.

I am not criticizing the work done by the community organisation in H-M. I am criticizing a guy that pretends they are better than Stella to deal with SW. They do not pretend themself that they do a better job, they do not want to do the job that Stella does (except for la cles who miserably fails to deliver) and they respect Stella as much as Stella respect them. So please, stop your bullshit about putting them into a false competition.

 

[eastender]

Statistics

We are not talking about sex trade statistics. We are talking about commununity organisation statistics. That, we have. You say they do a better job by looking at the results. What counts is the results as you say.




You say they reach SW. How many? Where?



Not sufficient! Give us some data to back that statement. Show us how they reach more SW today than 10 years ago. If they are serious organisations, they compile statistics on that. People who finance them ask for those statistics.



I'm not asking what they do. I know that GM sell cars. We are interested in knowing if they succeed to provide them to a specific clientele.



You must be kidding. As if this was information to be kept secret. These organisations are publicly financed and they have annual reports, usually made public.



I think you are the one who introduced the idea of competition by stating, obviously without the slightest idea of what you are talking about, the idea that community organisations do better than Stella in supporting SW who want to leave this business.

I am not criticizing the work done by the community organisation in H-M. I am criticizing a guy that pretends they are better than Stella to deal with SW. They do not pretend themself that they do a better job, they do not want to do the job that Stella does (except for la cles who miserably fails to deliver) and they respect Stella as much as Stella respect them. So please, stop your bullshit about putting them into a false competition.

Community organization statistics while public are not divided the way you want them to be divided. Example a youth organization and others will have a standard balance sheet, statement of income and expenses and a listing that shows the yearly numbers in each activity so you can trace the growth or decline in participation by sport, activity, age group , gender, etc. This data does not show the parental occupation or the youngsters family situation. Revenue streams are also indicated which is where you can find the various freebies for kids in need.

SVDP run various used clothing banks in H/M/VM. The clothes they give or sell are not identified as going to SWs or non-SWs.Nor is this reflected in their financials or other statistical data. All that matters is that clothes find their way into the hands of those that need them. Neither the organization onor benefactors distinguish between SW and non SW.

We' ll go a bit further with SVDP and some of the older paroisse related organizations. Chez Stella is app one generation old. SVDP is over 100 years old. They are an established institution in H/M/VM. SWs in H/M/VM can be traced back to the docks about 150 years ago. Most of the paroisse community organizations and their present day derivatives have been dealing with SWs and their families for generations before Stella came on the scene.So you statement about not wanting to do the job is false. If for some unfortunate reason Stella would cease these organizations would continue and absorb the responsibilities without missing a beat.

Again their financials and support data does not categorize their efforts as SW and non- SW related, they simply view their mandate as helping people.

As for doing better than Stella at helping SW leave the lifestyle. You are not setting the bar to high. First Stella is at a distinct disadvantage because of their mandate. A recommendation on a Chez Stella letterhead carries negative connotations whereas a recommendation on a paroisse organization or Centre Pour Adultes....etc carries weight. Just the way it is. A verbal recommendation or a signed coded note from an established community worker cuts thru red tape or gets you in the door for entry level jobs. Just the way it is.

Stella is an excellent niche organization BUT you have to recognize their limitations. Leaving the SW lifestyle is a major step and the SW should make sure that she can access the best resources that she needs and Stella simply is nowhere near vertical when it comes to providing the required support.

 

[metoo4]

EastEnder, obviously you don't want to ear anything but what you preach. Again, you're insisting to make a correlation between SP and alcoholics/junkies.

Are you saying the AA don't have alcoholics meeting with alcoholics? AA don't meet in bars and Stella's peoples don't maintain offices in strip clubs or in hotel rooms. If we keep going with your thinking, we deduct johns are to SP the same as boose is to alcoholics. Guess what? AA doesn't have boose handy at their meetings, no more than Stella have a line-up of customers waiting for the next SP wanting to turn a trick.

When's the last time you saw an alcoholic-to-be going to a AA meeting to get a career plan? When did you ear AA were assisting alcoholics with connections to get a job? Where did you heard AA were assisting in getting grants to go back to school and stuff? They don't! According to your reasoning, they are therefore useless, just like Stella! But anybody can tell AA are extremely helpful. They might not do any of the stuff above directly but they can refer to peoples who can, same way Stella does.

The biggest difference between Stella and the AA relates to the situation it handle: Alcoholism is a problem that can't exist without consequences, while sex work can be done without compromising the SP's ability to be part of society. Being an alcoholic is an addiction, some sort of disease. Being an SP is simply doing a job. Yes, there's often problems associated with sex work but in these cases, most often than not, sex work isn't the problem, it only becomes a way to cope ($$$) with other problems. For a drug addict, it's a small step to resort to prostitution in order to get the next fix but, the step is waaay bigger the other way around, for an SP to become a junkie.

 

[eastender]

Abstract

EastEnder, obviously you don't want to ear anything but what you preach. Again, you're insisting to make a correlation between SP and alcoholics/junkies.

Are you saying the AA don't have alcoholics meeting with alcoholics? AA don't meet in bars and Stella's peoples don't maintain offices in strip clubs or in hotel rooms.

If we keep going with your thinking, we deduct johns are to SP the same as boose is to alcoholics. Guess what? AA doesn't have boose handy at their meetings, no more than Stella have a line-up of customers waiting for the next SP wanting to turn a trick.

Sorry but you are simply too abstract and your posts have no grasp of the realities of the streets of H/M/VM.

Alcoholics usually have jobs, family, a support network, better finances and a single substance problem. SWs usually are alone, or a single parent, no family, no support network, day to day finances and a shopping list of physical, psychological and / or substance problems.. Surprised that you did not figure this part out.

There is a major difference between getting over alcoholism and being functional at optimal levels and changing your lifestyle with no guarantees or support. The key is changing the lifestyle = making a clean break.