MASS SHOOTING/USA

[Womaniser]

Its funny (not laughing about it though) how the most permissive country in the modern world on the purchase and ownership/carrying of firearms has the highest (by a huge margin) death count in proportion to population…. Just carrying a firearm to prevent or stop a mass shooting is useless without significantand continuous training. Ask any police an
gent or SWAT agent…. Using a gun in a high stress situation is unlikely to get anything useful done…. There were a number of real life tests conducted on this and even in controlled situations the average Joe was useless with a gun, or worse hurting themselves in the process…

Perhaps some people watch too much movies !
Two years ago in Longueuil, a police officer (young woman) tried to stop a mentally ill man that was walking toward her with a weapon.
She fired 4 or 5 shots with her Glock pistol at around 25 yards without touching him.
After, she chose to flee the scene. More agents controllef the situation without having to shoot.
The majority of Police officers don't practice shooting more than once a year in Quebec Province.
I don't know what is the situation in USA.
Once in a few years, we see a good guy killing a mass shooter in USA.
What did the heavily armed police officers do during more than one hour in the Uvalde school shooting in Texas ?

 

[EagerBeaver]

Its funny (not laughing about it though) how the most permissive country in the modern world on the purchase and ownership/carrying of firearms has the highest (by a huge margin) death count in proportion to population…. Just carrying a firearm to prevent or stop a mass shooting is useless without significantand continuous training. Ask any police an
gent or SWAT agent…. Using a gun in a high stress situation is unlikely to get anything useful done…. There were a number of real life tests conducted on this and even in controlled situations the average Joe was useless with a gun, or worse hurting themselves in the process…

Not sure I understand this post- if you are in an area where a mass shooting breaks out and you are close to the shooter, you are saying that you wouldn't want to have a gun because you wouldn't know what to do with it? So if your choice is going meekly to meet your maker in a hail of gunfire or conceal carry and try and put the shooter down, you choose the former and accept death without a fight?

I understand we all might be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but do you not want to at least have the chance to put the shooter down before you get shot? And a chance for survival?

 

[CLOUD 500]

Its funny (not laughing about it though) how the most permissive country in the modern world on the purchase and ownership/carrying of firearms has the highest (by a huge margin) death count in proportion to population…. Just carrying a firearm to prevent or stop a mass shooting is useless without significantand continuous training. Ask any police an
gent or SWAT agent…. Using a gun in a high stress situation is unlikely to get anything useful done…. There were a number of real life tests conducted on this and even in controlled situations the average Joe was useless with a gun, or worse hurting themselves in the process…

Training or not, it is better to be armed to at least have a chance to defend yourself then sitting like a sitting duck. Consider all those mass shooters, most had no training whatsoever, most were mental cases that flipped and made considerable damage. What is to say that an armed citizen with minimal training will not be able to defend themselves? They might not be as effective as a navy seal but something is better then nothing. A every human has a right to be able to defend themselves. Waiting for police is kind of silly because by the time they get there the damage will be done. If someone breaks into your home would you not want to have a weapon to be able to defend yourself and your family? Are you ready to put your life in the hands of police in the hopes they will get there because they got training? Criminals got no formal training yet are able to cause significant damage.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Using a gun in a high stress situation is unlikely to get anything useful done…. There were a number of real life tests conducted on this and even in controlled situations the average Joe was useless with a gun, or worse hurting themselves in the process…

Training or not, it is better to be armed to at least have a chance to defend yourself then sitting like a sitting duck.

I do not understand this notion that it is better to meekly and passively accept certain death rather than shoot and fight back because you might get hurt in the process. This intuitively makes no sense to me. This is not a situation where there are "safe" outcomes.

 

[Womaniser]

Training or not, it is better to be armed to at least have a chance to defend yourself then sitting like a sitting duck. Consider all those mass shooters, most had no training whatsoever, most were mental cases that flipped and made considerable damage. What is to say that an armed citizen with minimal training will not be able to defend themselves? They might not be as effective as a navy seal but something is better then nothing. A every human has a right to be able to defend themselves. Waiting for police is kind of silly because by the time they get there the damage will be done. If someone breaks into your home would you not want to have a weapon to be able to defend yourself and your family? Are you ready to put your life in the hands of police in the hopes they will get there because they got training? Criminals got no formal training yet are able to cause significant damage.

I agree with you, I would like to be able to carry a firearm anytime and anywhere as long as I am the only one that can.
Then I would feel safe, not where and when a crazy man can also carry one like It happens to often in USA.
Statistics clearly show that the more handguns and assault rifles are easily accessibles the more murders, mass shooting and accidents happen.
More kids die in USA by firearms wounds than by car accidents.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I agree with you, I would like to be able to carry a firearm anytime and anywhere as long as I am the only one that can.

But this is not reality so why are we talking about it? We are not living in Alice In Wonderland.

 

[Womaniser]

I do not understand this notion that it is better to meekly and passively accept certain death rather than back because you might get hurt in the process. This intuitively makes no sense to me. This is not a situation where there are "safe" outcomes.

If I lived or have kids attending school in USA I would lean in your opinion but fortunately it is not the case in Canada.
Mass shootings happen at about 5 years intervals, not at weeks intervals

 

[EagerBeaver]

If I lived or have kids attending school in USA I would lean in your opinion but fortunately it is not the case in Canada.
Mass shootings happen at about 5 years intervals, not at weeks intervals

Yeah but the thread is about Mass shootings in the USA, not Canada, and Confucius say, "when in Rome do as the Romans do", which is why the indicated opinion applies. Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest applies here as well.

I find some of the posts by Canadian posters in this thread to be very odd and shockingly naive about US history, as if any of this is a new development. Also naive is the belief that we are somehow a more civiized society than we were 100 or 150 years ago, when the truth is we really are not. You guys very obviously did not study American history when you were in grade school and since you did not, I will give you a few historical events to study so that you can reflect on your posts in this thread- especially the first one listed below, which bears very directly on the discussion in the last few posts.

The gunfight below was the result of the very first known attempt at Gun Control by local law enforcement in US History. Here is how it turned out:

Gunfight at the O.K. Corral - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Saint Valentine's Day Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bonnie and Clyde - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you look at the photos of the Bonnie and Clyde car in which they were shot, i would be willing to bet that it was the most bullets ever pumped into one vehicle in United States history- the photos speak for themselves:

Bonnie clyde car hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy

Find the perfect bonnie clyde car stock photo, image, vector, illustration or 360 image. Available for both RF and RM licensing.

www.alamy.com

 

[Womaniser]

Yeah but the thread is about Mass shootings in the USA, not Canada, and Confucius say, "when in Rome do as the Romans do", which is why the indicated opinion applies. Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest applies here as well.

I find some of the posts by Canadian posters in this thread to be very odd and shockingly naive about US history, as if any of this is a new development. Also naive is the belief that we are somehow a more civiized society than we were 100 or 150 years ago, when the truth is we really are not. You guys very obviously did not study American history when you were in grade school and since you did not, I will give you a few historical events to study so that you can reflect on your posts in this thread- especially the first one listed below, which bears very directly on the discussion in the last few posts.

The gunfight below was the result of the very first known attempt at Gun Control by local law enforcement in US History. Here is how it turned out:

Gunfight at the O.K. Corral - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Saint Valentine's Day Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bonnie and Clyde - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you look at the photos of the Bonnie and Clyde car in which they were shot, i would be willing to bet that it was the most bullets ever pumped into one vehicle in United States history- the photos speak for themselves:

Bonnie clyde car hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy

Find the perfect bonnie clyde car stock photo, image, vector, illustration or 360 image. Available for both RF and RM licensing.

www.alamy.com

I was just comparing the differences in gun controls in the two countries and its effects on the number of mass shootings.
I am quite aware of the events you cited. Not the hole stories though.
From what I know, many Canadians have a better knoledge of USA than the other way. Many Canadians watch USA news and they travel to USA a lot.

 

[Fradi]

How about if no ordinary citizen was allowed to own or have a gun.
Wouldn't be much need to defend themselves with a deadly weapon would there.
For sure this is not easy to achieve but when will it end if they don’t even try.

What Is naive is that after decades of mass shootings and gun violence nothing has been done to curb the sale of military type automatic weapons to the public.
It is this ingrained love of guns by the American population that is the cause, for politicians it is still political suicide to try and implement strict controls.
Americans need to stop blaming the other party constantly and force their politicians to make changes, no other country in the world has anywhere near this type of gun violence nor this many guns in the hands of private citizens yet all that is constantly being offered and it seems accepted by the public is hope and prayers. This idea of having even more guns to protect yourself is totally insane and part of the problem.

i don’t see posting a history of gun battles like Bonnie and Clyde and Mafia wars does anything other than prove the ridiculous love of guns the American public still clings to and glorifying these criminals makes no sense it almost seems as they are proud of this type of history.

 

[EagerBeaver]

How about if no ordinary citizen was allowed to own or have a gun.
Wouldn't be much need to defend themselves with a deadly weapon would there.
For sure this is not easy to achieve but when will it end if they don’t even try.

What Is naive is that after decades of mass shootings and gun violence nothing has been done to curb the sale of military type automatic weapons to the public.
It is this ingrained love of guns by the American population that is the cause, for politicians it is still political suicide to try and implement strict controls.
Americans need to stop blaming the other party constantly and force their politicians to make changes, no other country in the world has anywhere near this type of gun violence nor this many guns in the hands of private citizens yet all that is constantly being offered and it seems accepted by the public is hope and prayers. This idea of having even more guns to protect yourself is totally insane and part of the problem.

i don’t see posting a history of gun battles like Bonnie and Clyde and Mafia wars does anything other than prove the ridiculous love of guns the American public still clings to and glorifying these criminals makes no sense it almost seems as they are proud of this type of history.

Fradi your post is true as to the causes for the behaviors of the politicians, but naive as to the proposed solution. It's not going to happen. And so long as it's not going to happen, you have the choice of being armed and ready, or unarmed and defenseless, when the next shooting breaks out. Would you really want to be in the latter category if you and your beloved children are visiting the USA? I didn't think so. You would Rambo up as needed to defend them. That's the only choice. However, everything else you say in your post is 100% true.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I am quite aware of the events you cited. Not the hole stories though.

Not many Americans would even realize that the Gunfight at OK Corral actually started after an attempt to enforce a local gun control ordinance in an area of complete lawlessness. This event made legendary real life heroes out of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday (and even gave birth to our own Doc Holliday on MERB, who is a great a guy as the man he is named for) and caused multiple movies to be made about the event, including the very good Tombstone. This event and its celebration also somewhat gives credence to everything that Fradi says in his post.

The love affair in the USA with guns has many entrenched roots. There is the legal (2nd Amendment), the political (Revolutionary War and War of 1812 in which the White House was burned), and the historical, which I have chosen to explore in some detail. I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. But how this country developed and the gun culture that exists didn't happen overnight. It's been 250 years in the making. And you guys would snap your fingers and think that can easily be changed. That's not happening.

Here is the Tombstone trailer. I would suggest watching the film:

 

[Womaniser]

Not many Americans would even realize that the Gunfight at OK Corral actually started after an attempt to enforce a local gun control ordinance in an area of complete lawlessness. This event made legendary real life heroes out of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday (and even gave birth to our own Doc Holliday on MERB, who is a great a guy as the man he is named for) and caused multiple movies to be made about the event, including the very good Tombstone. This event and its celebration also somewhat gives credence to everything that Fradi says in his post.

The love affair in the USA with guns has many entrenched roots. There is the legal (2nd Amendment), the political (Revolutionary War and War of 1812 in which the White House was burned), and the historical, which I have chosen to explore in some detail. I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. But how this country developed and the gun culture that exists didn't happen overnight. It's been 250 years in the making. And you guys would snap your fingers and think that can easily be changed. That's not happening.

Here is the Tombstone trailer. I would suggest watching the film:

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to compensate the lack of a true army to defend the country against enemys.
Correct me if I am wrong.
In 2024, USA have a strong army and State safety organisations and don't rely on local Milicia.
Milicia wouldn't be very effective against inter-ballastic missiles.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to compensate the lack of a true army to defend the country against enemys.
Correct me if I am wrong.
In 2024, USA have a strong army and State safety organisations and don't rely on local Milicia.
Milicia wouldn't be very effective against inter-ballastic missiles.

This is all true, but a little bit of an oversimplification of the issue, legally speaking.

 

[Fradi]

Fradi your post is true as to the causes for the behaviors of the politicians, but naive as to the proposed solution. It's not going to happen. And so long as it's not going to happen, you have the choice of being armed and ready, or unarmed and defenseless, when the next shooting breaks out. Would you really want to be in the latter category if you and your beloved children are visiting the USA? I didn't think so. You would Rambo up as needed to defend them. That's the only choice. However, everything else you say in your post is 100% true.

I am not naive at all I know it is next to impossible to achieve without a couple of generation changes and completely different mind sets .
Having said that what you are saying is the heart of the problem the current generation will not budge on any significant gun reform laws and politicians will not do a thing knowing they will not get elected if they push gun control.
Ramboing up is total bullshit and just reinforces this ridiculous mindset that the answer is more guns in the hands of citizens, more tools to kill.
The category I want to be in is a safe place where citizens are not armed at all and especially not with military fully automatic weapons that are designed to kill over a hundred people in a matter of minutes.
What are you advocating that all visitors /tourists at the border have a rental station where they can obtain automatic weapons in order to safeguard themselves and their children while visiting Disney World.
I am sure your gun lobbyists would be more than willing to accommodate right beside Hertz and Alamo.

 

[EagerBeaver]

What are you advocating that all visitors /tourists at the border have a rental station where they can obtain automatic weapons in order to safeguard themselves and their children while visiting Disney World.
I am sure your gun lobbyists would be more than willing to accommodate right beside Hertz and Alamo.

I am not advocating anything, I am suggesting that when visiting Rome it is wise to do as the Romans do. Confucius, a very wise man, once said this, and I agree with Confucian theory. Talking about changes that may happen many generations from now, when all of us and our immediate next generations are dead, doesn't really help our current predicament, does it?

 

[Fradi]

I am not advocating anything, I am suggesting that when visiting Rome it is wise to do as the Romans do. Confucius, a very wise man, once said this, and I agree with Confucian theory. Talking about changes that may happen many generations from now, when all of us and our immediate next generations are dead, doesn't really help our current predicament, does it?

You’re the one living it, arming yourself to the teeth and making like Rambo is ridiculous. No I will not make like the Romans I will simply look for safer places to take a vacation unfortunately for my US relatives they don’t have much choice.
This is exactly the mindset of Americans until that changes you will forever be living on hopes and prayers from your politicians or trying to play Rambo,
neither of which will ever bring an end to this senseless slaughter of innocent people.

 

[Womaniser]

You’re the one living it, arming yourself to the teeth and making like Rambo is ridiculous. No I will not make like the Romans I will simply look for safer places to take a vacation unfortunately for my US relatives they don’t have much choice.
This is exactly the mindset of Americans until that changes you will forever be living on hopes and prayers from your politicians or trying to play Rambo,
neither of which will ever bring an end to this senseless slaughter of innocent people.

Of all the mass shootings I saw reported on TV for many years, only one or two were stopped by an armed good guy.
So the dreamed theory of the good guy with a gun would stop all mass murders is just a dream encouraged by the NRA.

 

[Womaniser]

Of all the mass shootings I saw reported on TV for many years, only one or two were stopped by an armed good guy.
So the dreamed theory of the good guy with a gun would stop all mass murders is just a dream encouraged by the NRA.

A few months after his wife, the father of a 15 years old that killed 4 of his classmates and injured 6 and his teacher with a semi-auto bought for him by his parents, has been found guilty of involontary man slaughter.
Both parents face possible 15 years in prison.

 

[Jazzman1218]

A few months after his wife, the father of a 15 years old that killed 4 of his classmates and injured 6 and his teacher with a semi-auto bought for him by his parents, has been found guilty of involontary man slaughter.
Both parents face possible 15 years in prison.

And they will deserve every minute of their sentences.