MERBites and the Law

[Ripcord]

I do not know if this question arises from an ambiguous nature of the law in Montreal or from my own ignorance, but I am getting conflicting perceptions of the legality of outcalls. Any clarirification would be deeply appreciated. Can some experienced hobbyist provide an opinion as to which of the following statements, A or B, is closer to the truth:

A) outcalls are perfectly legal as long as you do not explicitly mention sexual activity, either in public or over the phone or via the Internet.

B) Outcall services are technically illegal regardless of what is said or not said (i.e., any exchange of money for sex) but it is rarely prosecuted in the outcall setting.

I personally have not had a problem, albeit in only one venture to Montreal, but I would just like to get a handle on this subject. Thanks in advance for all who care to proffer their understandings. It is just that even with researching the threads,I am still a bit confused.

 

[Legolas]

This is what a crown prosecutor told me: A girl working totally alone, and keeping every penny of the encounter, can legally meet you for paid sex at your premises.

There is a caveat. Its not legal if any third party helps in any way to set up the meeting. This includes even something so simple as her SP friend telling you about availability. To this prosecutor any such help forms a criminal enterprise and he had no problem with the idea of taking it to court. This distinction is important because many independants are associated together in some way.

Everything else is illegal. However the police have said that even agencies are not a priority for them unless some of the girls are underage.

I have no idea about advertising or methods of communication.

 

[daydreamer41]

Then why do newspapers take ads from Agencies advertising Escorts? They would be part of the third party, would they not? If the police don't do anything about the agencies, the newspapers have nothing to worry about, but under your explanation, the ad takers are third parties.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I am glad to see that you guys have finally figured out that there is a difference between conduct that is "illegal" and that which is "technically illegal", the latter encompassing the realm of activities which is statutorily proscribed, yet not enforced by LE for whatever reason.

 

[Legolas]

Originally posted by daydreamer41
Then why do newspapers take ads from Agencies advertising Escorts? They would be part of the third party, would they not?

A few months ago the police did in fact go around to the various papers to say they could be charged. Several newspapers' escort sections became very small indeed. (No idea why they didn't disappear completely.) Other papers argued they couldn't be expected to screen the legality of all their classified ads and, for some reason, the police backed off. Since then you see (almost?) all (English?) ads are now from registered companies, which are easy to form, and which give the papers a way out of their dilema.

 

[Big Daddy]

What is the risk to the customer?

What is the realistic risk for the customer? I usually travel to Montreal for a few days. I don't want to be caught in the mess.

So far, it seems that living of the avails of prostitution will make the agencies guilty. I can see that customer can be charged for using third party assistance, but are customers prosecuted?

 

[EagerBeaver]

Not unless you are extra stupid.

 

[Ripcord]

Glad you brought up the subject of under age girls, StripperLover. As you can tell from my communications by now, I am abit on the paranoid side. I just do not want any legal trouble.

But regarding the underagers, there a couple at Freedom who look super hot, but who worry me when it comes to age. Sabrina is listed at 18, and Sandy is listed at 19. I would love to do both of these girls, but am a bit worried. Does anybody out there have a clue as to their REAL ages? You could always ask, but I don't think any SP is going to show you their ID with their true name on it.

 

[anon_vlad]

The SP being underage is certainly another thing to worry about.

However, perhaps the following will lend some comfort: One I met confided that she and a few others on her website are, in fact, each 4 or 5 years older than their listed ages.

 

[Lawless]

Underaged SP
Those worried should search databases of local papers (or even local courts) to review the conviction of R. Gilet; underaged are underaged and the burden will rest (after usual evidence by AG (Crown) prosecutors) with the users to show they could not know that! If I remember, Gilet and some of his friends were convicted due to the facts they did not check or did not go far enough in the verification of the age of the sps. How far one has to go?
Conclusion: In doubt, stay away!!!!

 

[EagerBeaver]

The fundamental proposition that ignorance of the law is no excuse is what operates. If a girl is 15 years old, and looks 18 to you and you are caught fucking her, it is no defense to say "she looked 18 to me." In effect, the law holds you absolutely liable, or strictly liable, for the age of the girl you are caught fucking. There is no such thing as a negligence defense in Canada or in the USA. Gillett and his buddies were pedophiles and, from what I read, they were also very stupid. My experience is that those who get caught are usually guilty of heinous stupidity in addition to the crime with which they are charged.

 

[Big Daddy]

Outcalls are legal

This topic was discussed in Terb. The conclusion was that outcalls are legal. The rationale was following.

An escort company provides companionship, and whatever happens is between the client and SP. Thus, if client and a SP engages in sex then it was a mutual consent between client and SP and no third party was involved.

The above definition allows SPs to ask for "extras" in the session and there is nothing much the agencies can do, as technically the decision of having sex is between SP and client.

When a client contacts an agency and asks specifics about sex then the situation can get illegal because now the agency is acting as a third party.

If a client does not discuss sex with the agency phone operator, and discusses sex with a SP in his hotel room, I think it should be perfectly OK.

 

[Legolas]

BD, you are in a world of hurt as soon as you are arrested. It doesn't matter what clever arguments you try to use later, or even if they work. The damage has already been done.

"This thing we do" (no, not the mafia) is totally dependant on the discression of the police, crown prosecutors and politics.

 

[Big Daddy]

Now, you guys have scared me. I always believed that it was legal and did not fear an arrest.

 

[EagerBeaver]

BD,

I am sorry to say this but your buddies on TERB have spent too much time reading website disclaimers. Web site disclaimers do not establish what the law is. The local police chief establishes what the law is. And if you think those web site disclaimers will immunize you, you better think again. Cuz if the local police chief wants to fuck you in the ass, you'll need a jar of vaseline, not some mumbo jumbo from Miss Toronto's website. And that's the fact, Jack.

On the other hand if you behave discreetly and don't say or do anything stupid, your rectum will always be relaxed at the end of the evening. And this is the truth.

 

[Big Daddy]

Stripper Lover,

Thanks! I only use outcall and it is usually in my hotel. I don't know anyone in Montreal, so my encounters are very discreet.

 

[daydreamer41]

Hey Stripperlover, Would a hotel ever complain to you or police that there are too many girls going in and out of a person's room? I know they are liberal where you are, but there are families in these hotels. Has anyone ever run into this situation?

Once I had two blondes (remember Veronique from Jacques and another hot blonde from Jacques) and the maid opened the door. The girls shirked and the maid, an older black woman, gave us a dirty look and closed the door. From now on I make sure I use all locks and put the do not distrub sign on the front.

 

[EagerBeaver]

This is an example of a lack of discretion - different ladies going in and out of your room. Regarding the maid or staff opening the door, that has happened to me when I failed to put up the Do Not Disturb sign. Another example of a lack of discretion.

Other examples of a lack of discretion that could lead to a complaint and a visit by the police: SP being too vocal during sex; you being too vocal during sex; yelling or screaming and especially drunken yelling or screaming; letting the SP stand outside of your door while you get ready (an SP recently told me this happened to her - it is not only rude to SP but it arouses suspicion of other hotel guests); making overt or explicit sexual statements on the phone or in emails; etc. Guys who get arrested usually have it happen to them because of one of the aforementioned or some other indiscreet, stupid or rude behavior.

 

[Mandrake]

Ripcord,

I hope all of the replies to this thread haven't scared you away from Canada completely. But I'm a little puzzled by your apprehension, on this thread and your other one about SP friendly hotels, since you say you've already done this.

I had my first outcall experience in Montreal in July. I researched using MERB and the Montreal Spreadsheet. I stayed at a decent but not upscale Downtown hotel. I called a MERB certified (by reviews and comments) agency to make arrangements. At the appointed hour there was a knock at my door. The lady came in, stayed an hour or so and left. There were no problems of any kind; hotel, LE or otherwise.

After reading all of the other responses, my conclusions are: A) Strictly speaking, yes, it's illegal and you could be arrested. B) The odds of that happening are about the same as being struck by lightning on Rue Ste Catherine.

This sort of thing goes on every day in hotel rooms all over Montreal. If LE were kicking down doors and arresting clients, the news would spread like wildfire via forums like this. Just avoid the indiscretions mentioned by EB and others (no more than 3 girls at a time, OK? And don't make them scream too much... Oh, and remember to lock that door!)

As for your concerns about underage SPs: I've had my eye on Sandy myself for my next trip. The underage thing never really occurred to me. Freedom is another MERB certified agency. My assumption is that if they hired any underage girls, the agency owners would be first in line to be nailed by LE, so they have probably done everything humanly possible to verify their employees' ages. I'd have no reservations about seeing Sandy.

BTW: The answer to your original question is B. Is there a prize?

Disclaimer : The above is personal opinion and in no way constitutes legal advice.

 

[MotJuste]

Originally posted by EagerBeaver
The fundamental proposition that ignorance of the law is no excuse is what operates. If a girl is 15 years old, and looks 18 to you and you are caught fucking her, it is no defense to say "she looked 18 to me." In effect, the law holds you absolutely liable, or strictly liable, for the age of the girl you are caught fucking. There is no such thing as a negligence defense in Canada or in the USA.

This statement is technically incorrect, at least as it concerns Canadian law. The offence that Gillet et als. were charged with is not in the strict or absolute liability category, and it would surprise me if the analogous offence in any U.S. jurisdiction was so characterized. Gillet raised a defence of mistaken belief as to the girls' ages -- the jury just didn't believe him (ironically, with respect to the older of the two he was involved with).

I have been mulling over certain questions about underaged SPs flowing from the Quebec City teen prostitution cases ever since the sentencing of the clients commenced. Since Capt. Renault recently deleted his thread on the subject, I will likely start another thread on the implications for hobbyists, when I get a moment to gather my thoughts.