Money change before or after the service

[urquell]

How is paying upfront undercutting your security? I mean, upon arrival, not before. She’s already there in person in front of you and so your odds of not getting service are very slim (unless you behave like a douche canoe) whereas she has absolutely no idea If you even have the money or not. so her odds of being scammed are exponentially higher than yours. Malice aside, let’s consider forgotten envelopes, rate misunderstanding and the likes all could be non malicious reasons to the girl not being paid which is eliminated by paying upon arrival.

can you imagine how any dude with any sort of tiny complaint would try and negotiate after the fact, withhold part or all of the payment etc if we allowed this?

you actually might be surprised at how many people do not deliver the promised service and/or time promised. Add in emergency "I have to go" phone calls, and the various "oops" excuses and the possibilities for under-delivering services are virtually endless. Of course, most girls are reasonably honest. Of course, most guys are reasonably honest too. I've never heard the expression "douche canoe" before (made me laugh. thanks) but personality issues are not a one way street relegated strictly to men either. To be perfectly clear, I'm not minimizing the issues that SPs face with problem clients, but I'm likewise not forgetting the issues with problem SPs either.

Having said all of this, I also make some distinction between what is expected culturally here and what it the case elsewhere. I understand that paying up front is desirable for SPs here and is the norm, particularly if you're dealing with non-indy SPs. I totally get this. I'm also aware that the prevailing attitude outside of North America is to laugh at guys who pay up front and to comment loudly "rookie mistake" when they come complaining about how they got screwed (not in the fun sense) somehow. I'm trying to reconcile the one with the other and to see what crossover there is. I have no issues whatsoever with whatever rules the ladies here want to make. Everyone is entitled to their own rules and preferences with respect to how they conduct themselves. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow them, but I never try to sway people away from their own personal ideologies.

 

[Anong]

I always pay first. Why again this question is raised, no other subject?

 

[Gazoo64]

I always pay at the beginning, I don’t know why we’re still discussing this.
For me, the main reason is to put the girl at ease and to get it out of the way.
Similar to reasons given by @Fradi above.

I tend to repeat, so I know the girls and the service I’ll get, so there is a very slim chance of having a sub-par encounter.
And in some cases when I TOFTT and don’t have a good encounter, I simply won’t repeat. Doesn’t change anything if I pay at the beginning or end, so might as well pay at the beginning.

This is my opinion, but to each his own!

 

[Rebaynia]

In the old days the way was paying at the end but these days were very different.

I was taught in 2001 to charge up front and not give services unless payment was recieved first. At the time was working with an agency outcall, and protocol was driver dropped us off and once we were paid, we called the driver to give them the all clear and that we were paid. If someone refused to pay were were told to leave. The warning was expect someone to screw you over if they didn't pay upfront. And we were warned if we weren't paid it was still coming out of our evenings earnings. So not only would you not get paid, you still had to pay the agency and the drivers their cut even though...
And a more personal situation have avoided someone since returning who was pretty nasty in his point for wanting to do that very thing. Threatening not to pay, rob me, and kick me out naked, after breaking every limit I had set, in essence rape. All because I wouldn't let him have his way in the hallways of the apartment building, needing to keep him in order, and got really bad vibes from him, when we got to his apartment door found out he lied about the apartment number I left refusing to even enter his apartment. And have since had to block 4 different numbers from the guy. It was a bullet dodged but has made me very weary in how I handle my business. And added to why I refuse to work at night now.

 

[Flyingby]

Read in another thread, written by an sp
if you pay upfront. You give her extra security
she might give you extra miles because of that security
to me, that possiblity is worth the extra risk to me

 

[Rebaynia]

Read in another thread, written by an sp
if you pay upfront. You give her extra security
she might give you extra miles because of that security
to me, that possiblity is worth the extra risk to me

It helps to put her at ease. The sooner she feels comfortable, the less reserved she gets, especially when fear of being scammed is an issue.

 

[Rebaynia]

Does it irritate you when the lady suddenly does it have change and you are required to leave a 50-60$ tip? It almost appears that they do it on purpose to avoid change. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big tipper, but I like to do it on my own terms, not hers, because she's put you in a position where you're obligated for her not to give you any change. It always happens to me, which I don't mind, but not in this way. Does this ever happen to you?

We purposely don't carry cash on us because we don't know if your looking to rob us, like your worried might happen to you.
If you expect to pay in big bills, then let her know your carrying bigger bills and ask her to bring change along. But even then she may likely not have the change on hand your asking for either. There is no way I'm carrying extra money just in case. But how is she to know your on the up and up.
It's tacky to request change. You may not like carrying the lower bills. But you have time to prepare yourself for the visit and get the appropriate bills in place beforehand. Stop off at the store and buy something and break one of your hundreds. A girl truly is put on the spot when she doesn't have change, and isn't expecting that she was 'sapposed to have it either.

 

[CLOUD 500]

I always have change, I will carry all denominations except $100s. Even when I got to stripclubs I always have change for the same exact reason OP stated. My bank fortunately all ATMs give out $5, $20, $50.

 

[Rebaynia]

The last provider I saw was counting out change in front of me. She must have had a couple thousand dollars on her.

There are exceptions to every rule. But it is dangerous to carry that much around.

 

[The Mac]

Out of curiosity , guys who tip how much do you give ? I never tipped and always bring the exact amount so i never was in this situation.

 

[urquell]

I have to admit it really depends how things flow...

Paying up front is the ethical and right thing to do and it should be ready

However, i do have a however, sometimes a meeting has a certain flow that somehow paying upfront doesn't seem natural, and i end up paying at the end, but it also depends of the comfort level i have with the lady, if we have a long time relationship, she trusts me well enough she will get paid.

However, i have to admit, when i met an agency lady last summer, i didn't pay her up front because i ended up making out at the beginning of the meeting because I was so distracted with the make out session, but she ended up getting paid, and i enjoyed my meeting. That was an exception. But ethically, we should pay up front.

But yes, usually, paying up front is the way to go.

I'm not at all surprised that people here seem to accept payment up front as the normal thing to do in this cultural environment, but I admit I am surprised to see someone say that it's the ethical thing to do. I'm curious to see what the underlying ethical argument is. Can you elaborate?

 

[NatashaSnow]

Out of curiosity , guys who tip how much do you give ? I never tipped and always bring the exact amount so i never was in this situation.

Follow up question and genuinely from a place of curiosity, why don’t you tip? (Others welcome to answer as well of course)

I know I’m not a guy and I don’t tip but I’ll chime in anyway. I would say 75%ish don’t tip and I never ever judge that. If the booking process was particularly tedious or long I have a little premade text to hint at tipping that I’ll send not too long after the conversation which has gotten me quite a few ~20$ tips on the spot.

Otherwise, I’ve been tipped anywhere from 40$ to 500$.
For shits and giggles, here are a few examples:
• One guy consistently always pays me double my rate for his hour to the tune of 1000/h instead of 500.
• One guy suggested OF to leave his deposit, which in theory is pretty clever, however she tu the possibility of chargeback extending passed the appointment date, I suggested that should I not show up he go ahead with the chargeback, and if all goes well then it’s a tip (60USD)
• Another paid double my sexting rate (300 instead of 150)

i would say for those who do tip, it’s about 100$ per hour average.

What does happen way more often than you’d think is 2-3 hour bookings ending in under 30mins per client request. Usually it’s the ones who book in fuckfest hero mode thinking they’re going to last the entire time and then they don’t and are either too tired to hang out or embarrassed afterwards (or just don’t care to). And no, it’s not cause they thought I was lame, they all rebooked afterwards without exception.

 

[NatashaSnow]

The last provider I saw was counting out change in front of me. She must have had a couple thousand dollars on her.

That’s just insanity and precisely what I avoid at all costs. Not only is it just asking to be robbed, but I also find it advertises like: “hey, you’re #… today”

 

[lucerne]

I'm not at all surprised that people here seem to accept payment up front as the normal thing to do in this cultural environment, but I admit I am surprised to see someone say that it's the ethical thing to do. I'm curious to see what the underlying ethical argument is. Can you elaborate?

If you have to ask after the explanations coming from the ladies in your thread and other threads on the same subject; I don't think it's worth his time to elaborate.

Just be honest and say it...." I have my way and I don't want to change"

 

[NatashaSnow]

why hold the money til the end anyway if not to not pay or deduct something if you’re subjectively dissatisfied with something or another?

 

[Halloween Mike]

I was taught in 2001 to charge up front and not give services unless payment was recieved first.

I started in 2009, so almost a decade after you. Its very possible thing were different. I don't know exactly how old is Merb. We used to be able to see sign up dates right under the names before and i think the oldest sign up dates i saw were 2003. In any case its possible Merb changed things, as it served as a "rassembling" nexus for clients. Even by 2013 things had already changed a lot since i joined in 2009. And they changed again ever since. Its pretty much like society.

I can also reply to @NatashaSnow on this. You mentioned why possibly wanting to pay at the end. In what I PERSONALLY read over the years, there was a lot of ads where GFE/BBBJ and other services were listed but once paid the SP would TOTALLY change her personna and services. Because obviously clients can't take back the money by force once its handled, so if the SP is deceiving on purpose, client was screwed up. And also to an extreme cases of "i forgot something in the car" or "i need to give the money to my driver" and all other excuses like these. Clients recommanded to others to pay at the end when services were indeed received.

Now like i said to Rebaynia, things are constantly evolving and indies in general have a lot more social presence online than even 10 years ago. Leolist pretty much replaced the dreadfull Backpage but they at least instaured a few minimal guardrails. You can see new accounts, you can see who got verified pictures. Its not scam proof of course, and i myself often see scammers use pictures of instagram models, sometimes even going a step futher to match their nationalities lol. The other day someone were using Alicia Parr pictures and put "Australian". Exept when you look at her profile she is obviously not in Montreal

Personally would i be nervous paying an agency girl from Euphoria, Xo or Luxury up front? No. Would i be nervous paying an indy thats been around for 5+ years and has stellar reviews? No. But if for ANY reasons i would be the aventurous type and try a Leolist booking, no way in wazoo would i pay upfront.

 

[Rebaynia]

I started in 2009, so almost a decade after you. Its very possible thing were different. I don't know exactly how old is Merb. We used to be able to see sign up dates right under the names before and i think the oldest sign up dates i saw were 2003. In any case its possible Merb changed things, as it served as a "rassembling" nexus for clients. Even by 2013 things had already changed a lot since i joined in 2009. And they changed again ever since. Its pretty much like society.

Lol.. I don't even know if merb was a thing back then.

I opened up the local district newspaper back then and called an agency who was advertising and offered I would like to start working, and started that night. I don't even know if the business was even located online yet at that point. And only stuck with it for like 6-9 months.

I can also reply to @NatashaSnow on this. You mentioned why possibly wanting to pay at the end. In what I PERSONALLY read over the years, there was a lot of ads where GFE/BBBJ and other services were listed but once paid the SP would TOTALLY change her personna and services. Because obviously clients can't take back the money by force once its handled, so if the SP is deceiving on purpose, client was screwed up. And also to an extreme cases of "i forgot something in the car" or "i need to give the money to my driver" and all other excuses like these. Clients recommanded to others to pay at the end when services were indeed received.

So the start of online advertising started the scammers finding new prey.

Now like i said to Rebaynia, things are constantly evolving and indies in general have a lot more social presence online than even 10 years ago. Leolist pretty much replaced the dreadfull Backpage but they at least instaured a few minimal guardrails. You can see new accounts, you can see who got verified pictures. Its not scam proof of course, and i myself often see scammers use pictures of instagram models, sometimes even going a step futher to match their nationalities lol. The other day someone were using Alicia Parr pictures and put "Australian". Exept when you look at her profile she is obviously not in Montreal

Personally would i be nervous paying an agency girl from Euphoria, Xo or Luxury up front? No. Would i be nervous paying an indy thats been around for 5+ years and has stellar reviews? No. But if for ANY reasons i would be the aventurous type and try a Leolist booking, no way in wazoo would i pay upfront.

It all becomes a case of how comfortable you are with who your meeting. And getting a sense of who your dealing with before.

 

[NatashaSnow]

I very rarely tip. Basically I only do if I didn't get the exact amount beforehand. I don't tip my doctor or accountant, why would I tip sps? On a per hour basis, sps out earn pretty much everybody.

Usually pleasure or appearance based services are tipped as opposed to necessities like doctors or accountants. One of which can’t even legally accept tips anyway and I wouldn’t be surprised if accountants couldn’t either.

it not a matter of how much we make or who out earns who, it’s about showing appreciation for outstanding service.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Follow up question and genuinely from a place of curiosity, why don’t you tip? (Others welcome to answer as well of course)

• One guy consistently always pays me double my rate for his hour to the tune of 1000/h instead of 500.

It is common sense for various reasons to give the exact ammount and not expect change. May be the only line of work that work this way but i understand the reasons and its not really hard to have said ammount. I think only one time i was caugh off guard but only by a 10$. Not that long ago 40$ was the usual CIM extra ammount and on that day the SP asked 50 and i had only 20s on me. So well ... i wanted it so whatever lol. I now try to think about bringing at least 1x10 and 2x5 on me just in case. So on the point of no cash back i agree with the general consensus.

When it comes to tipping, well here is how i saw it. Early 2010s it was not rare to see agency SPs offer cim included. If it was the case i was gonna give a tip. Then some agencies started to consider it an extra automatically and charge 40 for it, wich in my mind "was the tip". A tip for me was seen as going an extra step above GFE. When it comes to indies charging 400, 500 etc, well i am sorry but no matter how nice or else they may be, i won't tip. I will usually ask if she provide the kind of service i enjoy and i will pay the ammount she ask me. I mean if the rate is 400 but she want 500 to include cim for instance, i may agree depending on who it is, how much money im willing to spend etc etc, but thats still the ammount she asked. I would not give a tip to a premium fee DECIDED by an SP.

Sorry mini-rant incoming but the tipping mentality is something i do not like. I tip at a restaurant when im being served because i know they are paid under minimal wage and its kinda mandatory but lately the whole "tip on payment machine" for when you go grab a take out or something like that really bother me. I also do not understand why you should tip someone who decide their own rates.

About that guy who pays double the rate, i know its not something unusual. The ammount of "simping" i see online in recent years (especially with OF) is mind blowing to me. I think there is 2 factors. The first is likely they have a lot of cash so it does not feel like a loss to them, their need for the week or whatever are satisfied anyway and secondly some guys may think it make them extra special to the SP eyes...

Its nothing new really, i mean the very concept of "sugur daddy" is based on that. But from the eyes of a "middle average guy" like me it really feel as it hurt the client side because the SPs are becoming more and more demanding.

 

[NatashaSnow]

I'm happy to pay the agreed upon price. It's not like I get to pay less if the service wasn't up to my expectations. I don't see why I should pay more for "good" service.

Like I said, «show appreciation for outstanding service», not just « good » but outstanding. It’s on a voluntary basis and like the other thing I already said, I don’t judge if you don’t.
So basically you think everyone just shouldn’t at all which also says you think that we never, in any way, deserve a tip.
I’ll never judge anyone based on the act of tipping. I will based on their opinion regarding tipping in general though since it’s very telling about ones personality and character.