Montreal just banned pit bulls.

[Passionné]

It's always been entertaining when someone says more people get killed by something they can't prevent (lightning) then suggest people shouldn't do anything about those deadly risks they can prevent (pit bulls) because only a few get killed. Yeah, it's harder to empathize with the few who died when there's no ties to them or no emotional stake in the loss. No one but the family need care, right. Don't have foresight to help prevent the next attack, right.

More entertaining is this somehow became a libby versus conservative thing. Huh??? Is there a biased agenda to everything?

How about looking at it as a person got killed by a deadly animal. No relative death comparisons, no cynically making everything political.

Animal kills person. Animal put down. If an owner was negligent the owner pays legally. What in some peoples minds has that to do with lightning or libbys. Do we need to exploit death for political agendas.

Also, as I think this thread shows, those who have either been attacked or had friends attacked (as I have) may have a different perspective. Like jalimon, I stick to the friendly, goofy, sweet breed of dogs.

It shows where some empathize and some want some agenda mileage out of it.

The pit bull was designed to be an attack animal for hundreds of years. That's not political. It's fact. Because it was bred into a weapon it should be mandatory for owners to be trained to raise and handle them as it should be for similar breeds. The German Shepard next door is an excellent guard dog as it was designed. When I park my car next door to the dog it often comes to the property line to let me and anyone know where they cannot trespass. There's no fence, just a line of trees that does not prevent the dog from coming toward anyone but the TRAINED animal stays put. That's how the situation should be handled with effective training for owner and dog. Human and animal training, and whatever deterrents (containment if needed) depending on the breed.

Cheers

 

[EagerBeaver]

Just in case anyone wants to help, the attached report summarizes the various efforts of Canadian and American rescue groups to rescue out of Montreal the pit bulls who need a new home. However, according to this article, Montreal pit bulls are being euthanized at a high rate:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...how-to-help-2023336538.amp.html?client=safari

It also seems as though local media is very skeptical about the SPCA's efforts to get an injunction to stop the implementation of the law.

 

[olliesparks]

I try to keep my nose out of things here and not engage in debates like this, but this is where I am going to have to put my foot down.
I haven't been able to read through the entire thread here because the first page actually brought me to tears. Keep in mind that my knowledge of this discussion is limited to that and I apologize in advance if anyone in favor of getting the ban lifted feels targeted by my response.

The amount of hate and ignorance that I am seeing here is absolutely heartbreaking. I have spent years working with dogs. I am a certified dog trainer. I have been mauled, charged, cornered in a room, attacked at the end of a leash.. You name it. NEVER have I been attacked by a pitbull. A majority of the attacks I've suffered have been from smaller dogs. One of the worst bites I had was from a Lab, and it was not out of aggression it was out of fear. No dog is born predisposed to aggression. WE CREATE THEM. A dog will adapt itself to the environment it is raised in. Their temperament and control over their prey drive, which every single dog has, is 80% dependent on their environment and 20% on their genetics. If a person takes on a breed that they are not prepared to handle and work with, then naturally the dog will become a bit of a liability, regardless of their breed.

Pitbulls were NOT bred to be fighters. They are NOT inherently vicious. They are one of the most intelligent, trainable, docile breeds. Are they scary when you piss them off? Of course they are. So are most humans. The only difference is that people, most of them, have the ability to voice their displeasure on a situation and accurately(one would hope) get their point across. A dog does not have that privileged. They rely on their body language and the trust that we understand how to read it. We are currently punishing an entire breed based on the fact that a few handful of bad owners have made them their poster dogs and given them bad habits. The more we outlaw the breed, the more unsavory pet owners are going to pick them up as a "fuck you" to the man.

My experience with this breed is not limited to working with them as a trainer. I myself own a pitbull. I did not get to raise him from a baby. I did not get to form him into an ambassador for the breed. I adopted a pitbull the day before his euthanasia date. He was 5 years old and in picture perfect health. Why was he being put down? He had been used as a bait dog for fighting rings and developed a severe defense reaction to men and to other dogs. No one wanted him. He had bounced around foster homes for 2 years before I got him. It has been 5 years that I have him and He LOVES children, he is calm and friendly when strangers approach him, and he lives with 2 other dogs. Will he ever be perfect? No. Does he understand the rules and what is acceptable behavior around other dogs and people? Yes. Because I took the time to be fair with him. To show him that he doesn't need to be afraid and he doesn't need to be aggressively defensive.

Would you blame a child who was abused in it's formative years? Whether it be physical, emotional, or mental abuse it is all the same. It leaves scars. Our animals are a mirror of ourselves. They learn from us, rely on us, and love us unconditionally.

Montreal is returning that love by killing hundreds, maybe even thousands, of perfectly healthy and adoptable dogs. This ban is only going to make things worse. It is absolutely disgusting. I admit that being a trainer gave me a small advantage in taking on a dog that had the issues mine did, but even doing the SMALLEST amount of research before adopting any breed of dog will give you what you need in order to ensure the dog develops half decent manners. Our problem isn't the breed. Our problem is the lack of basic "dog" knowledge that plagues about 75% of Montreal dog owners.

I urge everyone to properly do their research on the matter. Statistics aside it is NOT okay to allow the destruction of these animals. They don't understand what they've done wrong. They don't understand why they are hated. All they have to give is love. It is easier for Coderre to close his eyes to the murder of these poor babies than it is to enforce mandatory basic education for people who wish to own dogs. I think that speaks mountains about him as a person.

 

[Doggyluver]

I have spent years working with dogs. I am a certified dog trainer. I have been mauled, charged, cornered in a room, attacked at the end of a leash.. You name it. NEVER have I been attacked by a pitbull. A majority of the attacks I've suffered have been from smaller dogs. One of the worst bites I had was from a Lab, and it was not out of aggression it was out of fear. No dog is born predisposed to aggression. WE CREATE THEM. A dog will adapt itself to the environment it is raised in. Their temperament and control over their prey drive, which every single dog has, is 80% dependent on their environment and 20% on their genetics.

Would you blame a child who was abused in it's formative years? It leaves scars. Our animals are a mirror of ourselves. They learn from us, rely on us, and love us unconditionally.

Montreal is returning that love by killing hundreds, maybe even thousands, of perfectly healthy and adoptable dogs. This ban is only going to make things worse. It is absolutely disgusting. I admit that being a trainer gave me a small advantage in taking on a dog that had the issues mine did, but even doing the SMALLEST amount of research before adopting any breed of dog will give you what you need in order to ensure the dog develops half decent manners. Our problem isn't the breed. Our problem is the lack of basic "dog" knowledge that plagues about 75% of Montreal dog owners.

I urge everyone to properly do their research on the matter. Statistics aside it is NOT okay to allow the destruction of these animals.

Hear, Hear ! Lets be sure the blame is put where it belongs on the owners not the animals

 

[Passionné]

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo2.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

http://pitbulls.org/article/brief-history-american-pit-bull-terrier

The amount of hate and ignorance that I am seeing here is absolutely heartbreaking.

Pitbulls were NOT bred to be fighters. They are NOT inherently vicious.

Montreal is returning that love by killing hundreds, maybe even thousands, of perfectly healthy and adoptable dogs.

None of us were around when the dogs were developed. So we rely on researching information. I for one read the history, a few of them from different sources, I do not go by the unfounded often reactionary views of others. Most accounts relate to developing the breed for it's fearlessness and aggression. Some say the origin started less for purposeful aggression, but still because the dog was the most suited for that purpose having strength, aggression, and fearlessness,...not exactly a real difference. Whether best suited for or made for is hardly a distinction.

As for hate, a few days ago, which I mentioned briefly in another post, I ran into a guy with a "pit bull", a medium sized one. My instant reaction was to lean over and pet the dog, though I paused to ask the owner permission a second later. No hate, I love animals. I've had far more aggression from Chihuahuas and they can hurt...but kill...extremely unlikely. They aren't built like pit bulls or able inflict the kind of damage of large dogs naturally or purposely designed for power.

I had not read or heard the dogs were being killed systematically in Montreal or anywhere. Where is a link to a credible source that is going on? There is one link claiming systematic euthanization would be authorized, NOT that it would happen. http://pitbulls.org/article/brief-history-american-pit-bull-terrier Please provide your link showing what you say. Are you sure you are not making a blanket reference to dogs which over time who cannot find a home? That has been a standard procedure for a long time with any unwanted animals after a certain period of time.

And yes, blame does belong more on the irresponsible owners.

Cheers

 

[Doc Holliday]

Rednecks? I think every inner city black thug has one or two in the USA. Many Michael Vick wanna-bes.

I know. I pulled a Donald Trump there.

 

[Doc Holliday]

There are other breeds responsible for many bites (including chihuahua and I have a chihuahua case right now), but as noted previously, pit bulls have a very powerful jaw and inflict a heavy bite that can take huge chunks of meat right out of your thigh.

I will say of all the dogbite cases I have seen the worst one was a Doberman which bit the nose off a person. But Doberman has not been banned so far.

I think the SPCA has some very good arguments and I will be curious to see how the Court rules.

Very well said and i totally agree. :thumb:

 

[Doc Holliday]

With a quick search on google, Pit Bulls are the most aggressive dogs breed based on the number of injuries and fatalities they cause. The second dangerous breed is Rottweiler, but it's way behind Pit Bulls.

Amen. And i'll repeat my previous words: If it were up to me, i'd throw all pitbulls down a meat grinder. Why? For the good of the human population.

 

[Doc Holliday]

What about human killed by dogs count? What about Child disfiguration Count? Is it still the same after Pits Ban in Ontario?

Quite true and that's what these people do not seem to understand: there's a huge difference between a pitbull's bite as compared to most of the other breeds. Not only have they bitten, mangled and disfigured people of all ages, but pitbulls can and have killed.

The time has come to permanently exterminate them from the planet. They're simply no good.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Not always the case. My friend and I were attacked by a German Sheppard bitch that was protecting her pups. I ran faster than my friend and he got a large chunk of meat ripped off his leg. He and I still love German Sheppards .
Also I was once attacked by a pack of wild dogs in the Dominican Republic. I picked up a large rock and threw it at the Alpha male and the pack scattered. Still love dogs.

Leo Dicaprio was once attacked by a bear. If you don't believe me, someone just happened to be filming him when it happened and the video is out there. But he's never called for the extermination of bears.

p.s. I gotta respect that German Sheppard for protecting her pups. It's her natural instinct and can't be faulted for that.

 

[jalimon]

It is easier for Coderre to close his eyes to the murder of these poor babies than it is to enforce mandatory basic education for people who wish to own dogs. I think that speaks mountains about him as a person.

I once met you Ollie. Beside being absolutely amazing, this well written and intelligent text proves just how much a great human being your are

These 2 sentences sums it all I think. Yes it's easier to ban then to educate. I am not saying I agree. This is what making decision for a gouvermnent, and often in a day to day job is all about. You have to take decision knowing they will not please everyone. You calculate the odds and take the risk. Coderre is ready to face the battle knowing he has more people on his side. Unless the court, under the action that the CPCA will launch, decides otherwise.

Cheers,

 

[cloudsurf]

Ollie
That was one of the most logical and well written post that I have ever read on Merb.
I agree completely with your sincere statements.
I know how busy your life is but you should find the time to contribute more often. Its appreciated. Thanks

Ollie for City Council !!

 

[lgna69xxx]

So have human beings, should all humans be linked into the same category and be eliminated?

Not only have they bitten, mangled and disfigured people of all ages, but pitbulls can and have killed.

 

[lgna69xxx]

I totally agree, very thought out and great post Ollie.

(Doc, i suggest if you ever book Ollie that you do not tell her your screen name)

Ollie
That was one of the most logical and well written post that I have ever read on Merb.
I agree completely with your sincere statements.
I know how busy your life is but you should find the time to contribute more often. Its appreciated. Thanks

Ollie for City Council !!

 

[clark_larson]

I personally don't like pitbulls, they're dull and ugly compared to more elegant dogs like dobermans. That being said, the cause of bad behavior in dogs is improper training. Not everyone has what it takes to properly train a dog. This makes me think of a situation where a few kids in a class disturb with their gameboys, so after a while the gameboy becomes forbidden and now the group of kids who followed the rules are complaining about the new policy. I agree to say that this is also be a political issue, but why give any reason to Coderre to take anything away? (A reason becomes a "reason" when it has political leverage) Anyways, you can always vote for a rival to revert this policy.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Since this law has passed has anyone run opinion polls of Montreal voters as to whether pit bulls should be banned, or whether the ban should be rescinded?

 

[Doc Holliday]

So have human beings, should all humans be linked into the same category and be eliminated?

I'm not against eliminating certain types of human beings for the sake of living in a better & safer world. Isn't what the death penalty is all about? I'm totally for the death penalty for certain crimes. Why waste $80 000+ a year just to keep some sick scumbags alive when they have zero chance of reforming or getting out of prison?

 

[Doc Holliday]

(Doc, i suggest if you ever book Ollie that you do not tell her your screen name)

The only thing it'll happen is if she books me. I only accept bookings now, not the other way around. I'm a provider, not a buyer.

p.s. All along i thought 'Olliesparks' was in fact Oliver Kloseoff.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Since this law has passed has anyone run opinion polls of Montreal voters as to whether pit bulls should be banned, or whether the ban should be rescinded?

It seems that poll show that Quebec overwhelmingly favors the ban:

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/pit-bull-ban-has-support-of-most-quebecers-poll-shows

 

[Passionné]

That being said, the cause of bad behavior in dogs is improper training.

Some things to recognize:

We talk about how this situation where pitbulls are a more lethal risk could be avoided by proper training misses the fact that very very few people ever train their dog properly at all no matter what breed it is. People play, cuddle, run with, have fun with their dogs and rarely train them.

Why do they need any training? Because the design of the breed and the type of reaction the breed can have makes the risk more lethal. Labradors are big, with extremely muscular necks and jaws with the same kind of potential risk but their temperament is markedly different overall despite individual differences in each breed. It's just not a simple matter that the person is the problem.

Is the dog or the owner responsible for an incident? Both. Whether designed entirely by nature or humans the dog is a more serious risk than the vast majority of breeds. The typical owner probably often has one for the particular traits that make them a risk and chances are they prefer the dog because of it's deterrent character and the only training it's likely to get is to recognize it's owner as a friend. The rest is most likely left up to the individual temperament of each dog.

To avoid the more dangerous types of incidents training would have to be legally mandatory for these kinds of dogs and the owners need to be trained how to handle them also. That's going to be a resisted political headache for many reasons, especially with enforcement.

Breeds do have a particular nature in their character. Don't expect training to be a cure all for any breed. Animals can react within their natural character for many reasons and some cues that create incidents cannot be completely controlled.

About polls on this issue, most people will have an emotional reaction that's not entirely based on good information or facts.

Cheers