Osama bin Laden is DEAD!!!
- Thread starter Techman
- Start date
SK,
I kind of have mixed feelings on it. I can certainly understand your viewpoint. The reasoning of Obama seems to be that few credible people are challenging the veracity of Bin Laden's death (indeed, BL's 12 year old daughter already told Pakistani intelligence that she saw Daddy get shot and killed by the Navy seals), and in any event, releasing photographs will not satisfy or quell the doubts of any conspiracy theorists out there, who will still challenge their veracity. I am not sure that there is any compelling need to release the photos, other than the media's thirst for them to splash them on the front pages and sell news.
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I understand that part of it too but whether or not photo's are released won't stop these lunatics from carrying out further attempts. I feel the public needs the proof displayed, hell, I'd like to see the helmet cams of the actual assassination!
Beav, who are the "credible people?"
I don't know, that is what I read in one of the reports on this decision, and it was not specified who they were talking about. Cryptic reporting but Obama did mention that "there will be some folks who will deny it", and I think the writer was paraphrasing what Obama said. It also may have been that they meant "none" when they said "few." It really does not matter as far as the decision to release the photos, whether it is really a "few" or "none".
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Thanks lgna69. I was in Midtown in my office when it happened. I went outside and could see the smoke from the towers, women were crying and collapsing in the streets. There were many thousands of people in the streets not knowing what to do or where to go. You could hear the deafening roar of the F-16's as they flew overhead to lower Manhattan. I found out later that a firm we did business with had a man on one of the planes with his 5 yr old son ....
I show no mercy for these animals ... thankfully neither do the U.S. Navy Seals.
Yeah Right,
I brought the post here to save the trouble of making two posts instead of one on the same subject. Such economy wouldn't occur to someone who has nearly 4000 posts, with not one review for the purpose of this board, to my 1645 posts though we both started at almost the exact same month. Also, someone who posts about exchanging backdoor inside information, "wink wink", on escorts and refusing to share reviews is a pure example of "sneaking around".
As for the rest, the goading of a boldface lie speaks or itself...as usual. No further comment necessary.
Unfortunately, professional training in any area does not guarantee professional performance or attitude. There are many examples at the highest echelons of business, politics, sports, anything you could name.
My deliberately over-the-top scenario was speculation of possibility, not an inference of fact by any standard. Maybe in this case professional training worked, and maybe the risk of political damage in doing anything else has a key effect too. But imagine these SEALS in possession of the body of the most infamous terrorist in the world, maybe in history, and who got him will not be known in their lifetime. I still say the story they gave about Bin Laden being given every respect may be more about very smart forethought of how to handle Muslim political reaction than accurate facts. Any video or photo of this episode would have extremely delicate implications of the most volatile magnitude in the Muslim world no matter how justified we see it, or the Muslims might be willing to concede down deep. A photo or video of Osama Bin Laden dead, in American hands, shot through the head, and being dropped into the sea, no matter how respectfully. Just imagine what Americans would say about a revered hero of ours in Al Qaeda hands, shot, and being disposed of in that way. It would be intolerable no how it was handled.
Torture doesn't work? You mean it's not true there were hundreds of thousands of witches who cast magical evil spells, turned themselves into birds, cats and unspeakable demons, sent out their spirits to torture the innocent. Oh nooooo...:faint:
Well, many countries, even so-called "civilized" ones, don't have any qualms about torture regardless of what we do. I agree it's immoral regardless, but obviously many will excuse it for righteousness and expediency.
I agree with Doc. It's no surprise at all that the photos and video won't be released. It's too politically explosive at a time when terrorism remains a significant threat and a large part of the key to fighting that terrorism depends on the good will of several Muslims countries and their perceptions in general. The inevitable explosion of photo-shopped and otherwise exploited imagery would be damaging and inflammatory, as well as providing the kind of memorial rallying point for sympathizers the burial at sea was meant to avoid in the first place.
Also, the morbid gratification through revenge by viewing photos or video of a dead Bin laden can never pay back or alleviate the tragedy of 3000 innocent American victims...or notably many more in other countries including Muslims.
That's one element.
John Dillinger was laid out for public viewing. Photos and film were released, and conspiracy theorists said he was still alive at the time.
President Obama was very bold, decisive, and RIGHT to carry out this operation to get Bin Laden despite Pakistani sensitivities to cutting them out of the loop on this episode in their country. That affront can be traded off against the duplicity of some obvious cooperation of some in that government to assist Bin Laden. But despite the two-faced game some officials in Pakistan are playing with us, we do need as much real cooperation with this country as possible, as with any other part of the Muslim world where such cooperation may serve our security interests.
Cheers,
Merlot
I brought the post here to save the trouble of making two posts instead of one on the same subject. Such economy wouldn't occur to someone who has nearly 4000 posts, with not one review for the purpose of this board, to my 1645 posts though we both started at almost the exact same month. Also, someone who posts about exchanging backdoor inside information, "wink wink", on escorts and refusing to share reviews is a pure example of "sneaking around".
As for the rest, the goading of a boldface lie speaks or itself...as usual. No further comment necessary.
Unfortunately, professional training in any area does not guarantee professional performance or attitude. There are many examples at the highest echelons of business, politics, sports, anything you could name.
My deliberately over-the-top scenario was speculation of possibility, not an inference of fact by any standard. Maybe in this case professional training worked, and maybe the risk of political damage in doing anything else has a key effect too. But imagine these SEALS in possession of the body of the most infamous terrorist in the world, maybe in history, and who got him will not be known in their lifetime. I still say the story they gave about Bin Laden being given every respect may be more about very smart forethought of how to handle Muslim political reaction than accurate facts. Any video or photo of this episode would have extremely delicate implications of the most volatile magnitude in the Muslim world no matter how justified we see it, or the Muslims might be willing to concede down deep. A photo or video of Osama Bin Laden dead, in American hands, shot through the head, and being dropped into the sea, no matter how respectfully. Just imagine what Americans would say about a revered hero of ours in Al Qaeda hands, shot, and being disposed of in that way. It would be intolerable no how it was handled.
Torture doesn't work? You mean it's not true there were hundreds of thousands of witches who cast magical evil spells, turned themselves into birds, cats and unspeakable demons, sent out their spirits to torture the innocent. Oh nooooo...:faint:
Well, many countries, even so-called "civilized" ones, don't have any qualms about torture regardless of what we do. I agree it's immoral regardless, but obviously many will excuse it for righteousness and expediency.
I agree with Doc. It's no surprise at all that the photos and video won't be released. It's too politically explosive at a time when terrorism remains a significant threat and a large part of the key to fighting that terrorism depends on the good will of several Muslims countries and their perceptions in general. The inevitable explosion of photo-shopped and otherwise exploited imagery would be damaging and inflammatory, as well as providing the kind of memorial rallying point for sympathizers the burial at sea was meant to avoid in the first place.
Also, the morbid gratification through revenge by viewing photos or video of a dead Bin laden can never pay back or alleviate the tragedy of 3000 innocent American victims...or notably many more in other countries including Muslims.
That's one element.
John Dillinger was laid out for public viewing. Photos and film were released, and conspiracy theorists said he was still alive at the time.
President Obama was very bold, decisive, and RIGHT to carry out this operation to get Bin Laden despite Pakistani sensitivities to cutting them out of the loop on this episode in their country. That affront can be traded off against the duplicity of some obvious cooperation of some in that government to assist Bin Laden. But despite the two-faced game some officials in Pakistan are playing with us, we do need as much real cooperation with this country as possible, as with any other part of the Muslim world where such cooperation may serve our security interests.
Cheers,
Merlot
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Doc,
Yes, it probably would infuriate them. But let them get a taste of their own medicine. Remember the internet video of the Italian having his head chopped off, or Daniel Pearl the Wall St Journal reporter being executed? And the video (Behind The Veil?) where they march the women into the soccer stadium, make them kneel, then shoot them in the back of the head for suspected infidelity.
We have to stop being afraid! We are in peril everyday anyway with these animals.
Correct SK, we showed photos of Hitler's body ... WTF is the difference. Just another asshole dead!
Hmmm,
The Nazis did not constitute a 1400-year-old theocratic religion of about 1/5 of the world's population in control of the resources the West and it's economy cannot do without.
BTW...I commend President Obama for using a very cautious perspective that considers the future security of the U.S. and the world instead of exploiting the political opportunism the publication of these photos or video would bring in this country for his political enrichment. That's guts.
:nod:,
Merlot
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Wow, so sorry man, it must be so hard for everyone to have to live the rest of their lives with memories of 911. (especially those who were in the NYC area that day) I went down to Manhattan 2 weeks after it happened and it was sooooo different, i didnt get too close to ground zero (couldnt if i wanted to anyways) but it was just a really strange feeling, very quiet, other motorists were actually letting others go first, swtich lanes, and the most noticable thing was nobody was honking their horns a split second after a light turned green. TY to the Navy Seals. :thumb:
Hard to believe anyone could compare the U.S. to Arab countries when it comes to human rights. In Saudia Arabia they routinely execute one hundered individuals by public beheadings every year. That's not to mention people having their tongues cut out or arms chopped off for minor offenses ... like speaking your mind. Shall we get into their total disrespect and hatred for women too?
Know tell me how we are no better!
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Hmmm,
The Nazis did not constitute a 1400-year-old theocratic religion of about 1/5 of the world's population in control of the resources the West and it's economy cannot do without.
Merlot
That's some religion that would support and be upset about a mass murderer like Bin Laden ... think about it!
So... if it's not true ? who f*king cares !
The message is clear, they just shoot the motherf*ckers who killed innocent people using terrorism. It doesn't justify killing thousands of people in Iraq but that's beside the real point !
Killing civilians in a terrorism act is against the geneva convention... so who cares about Geneva when it comes to kill those as*holes who don't play by rules ?
Letting them rot in a prison has nothing to do with justice and being civilized. It sends the message that no matter what these monsters do, we will show mercy ! Only an as*hole can think like this !
As for torturing these lowlife crap ? 'I didn't see or hear nothing' should be the policy !
And don't make a stupid dumb*ss report that will end-up on wikileaks !
So if it's true ? Sure I think it is ! and its about time US clean their act and it's none other than Obama at the helm. D'ya think superfries McCain and his bimbo would have done better ? Hell no !
So thumbs up for the US ! we can now stop laughing at the time they took to do it !
Cuze this operation shows what could have been done in IraQ or could be done in Lybia as well instead of going with the complete army to deal with this kind of situation. (Remember bringing more tanks in AFGH ?) That wasn't the way and it's still not !
That's why I think it is still the best way in Lybia ! Just take down their stupid armor and the jack*ss that are sun taning in the desert from the air while you target the clown in his bunker with laser guided bombs and missiles... get your best killers on the ground and let them do what they do best ! Slurrrp !
It cost a lot less and would have balanced the sheet instead of all the costs for the IraQ and AFGH wars !
Now I know I've said a lot against US for many things but on this I am 100% on your side !
You guys did f*king well taking him down !
Next time (and I don't mean with Obama) please don't do like us in Canada by electing the same stupid clown 3 times in a row
The message is clear, they just shoot the motherf*ckers who killed innocent people using terrorism. It doesn't justify killing thousands of people in Iraq but that's beside the real point !
Killing civilians in a terrorism act is against the geneva convention... so who cares about Geneva when it comes to kill those as*holes who don't play by rules ?
Letting them rot in a prison has nothing to do with justice and being civilized. It sends the message that no matter what these monsters do, we will show mercy ! Only an as*hole can think like this !
As for torturing these lowlife crap ? 'I didn't see or hear nothing' should be the policy !
And don't make a stupid dumb*ss report that will end-up on wikileaks !
So if it's true ? Sure I think it is ! and its about time US clean their act and it's none other than Obama at the helm. D'ya think superfries McCain and his bimbo would have done better ? Hell no !
So thumbs up for the US ! we can now stop laughing at the time they took to do it !
Cuze this operation shows what could have been done in IraQ or could be done in Lybia as well instead of going with the complete army to deal with this kind of situation. (Remember bringing more tanks in AFGH ?) That wasn't the way and it's still not !
That's why I think it is still the best way in Lybia ! Just take down their stupid armor and the jack*ss that are sun taning in the desert from the air while you target the clown in his bunker with laser guided bombs and missiles... get your best killers on the ground and let them do what they do best ! Slurrrp !
It cost a lot less and would have balanced the sheet instead of all the costs for the IraQ and AFGH wars !
Now I know I've said a lot against US for many things but on this I am 100% on your side !
You guys did f*king well taking him down !
Next time (and I don't mean with Obama) please don't do like us in Canada by electing the same stupid clown 3 times in a row
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For the lawyers it becomes a matter of winning the case and defending their client. Who really knows what Dershowitz thought of Van Bulow. I don't believe any of OJ's lawyers thought he was innocent. And that was the challenge for Cochran and his team. Being a successful lawyer is what will make you very rich ... not whether you really think your client is innocent.
I stand by what i said, you were being sneaky and seemed to have a agenda to pick a fight, or to keep one going, anyways, this isnt the sports threads, and at the risk of taking this thread off course, it will end here, this is not the place for it, if you have a problem or want answers your fishing for here, pm me (oh snap! now the pm's will never stop!) but say whatever you want, im done here out of respect for the other posters speaking about a REAL subject.
Now, about the pictures of bin laden being shown or not, it is a tough call, not sure how i feel yet, but for alot i am sure seeing the pics would put a closure or as much closure as possible to the losses they suffered from 9/11. Then again, they say there are tons of guys who look exactly like bin laden so??? Tough call for sure. What i would love to see however, is a interview with the Navy Seals who completed their mission.
but say whatever you want, im done here out of respect for the other posters speaking about a REAL subject.Now, about the pictures of bin laden being shown or not, it is a tough call, not sure how i feel yet, but for alot i am sure seeing the pics would put a closure or as much closure as possible to the losses they suffered from 9/11. Then again, they say there are tons of guys who look exactly like bin laden so??? Tough call for sure. What i would love to see however, is a interview with the Navy Seals who completed their mission.
Torture involving physical pain is a very inefficient method to get information. Like others have mentioned, often you will find a subject giving you the answers you want just to make the pain stop. Information gathered in that manner cannot be considered to be 100% reliable. Waterboarding is more reliable but not guaranteed to get results either as people can be trained to resist it. Psychological torture methods are much more efficient but take much longer and can leave you with a babbling idiot of a subject when you're finished and again, no guarantee of getting the information you're looking for. And no expert can tell what is the truth or a lie after a subject has reached a certain point because the subject himself can no longer tell the difference and may actually believe what he is saying is true.
Chemical interogation methods are also used but can also be fatal. There really are no fast and dirty methods to get information using torture from a subject trained to resist or from a zealot who really believes in his cause and will die before giving up the information. To obtain useful and truthful information can take months or years of conditioning. Unfortunately, by that time the information is rarely useful anymore as it is outdated. The best way to get information is not to torture the subject but to make him watch, or threaten to do so, the torture of his family members or loved ones. That is something that would never be condoned by any civilized country or society, and rightly so. The second best way is to pay for it, either outright with cash or by other means like granting immunity from certain charges or priviliges, relocation, witness protection programs etc...
By the way, to those who've brought up the Geneva Convention, that only applies to enemy combatants who are fighting for their country in war. It does not apply to terrorists who represent no country and act against innocent victims. Such people are outlaws and respect no law or convention themselves. If they act like rabid animals, killing indiscriminantly without honour, they should be treated as such and put down when the opportunity arises.
Chemical interogation methods are also used but can also be fatal. There really are no fast and dirty methods to get information using torture from a subject trained to resist or from a zealot who really believes in his cause and will die before giving up the information. To obtain useful and truthful information can take months or years of conditioning. Unfortunately, by that time the information is rarely useful anymore as it is outdated. The best way to get information is not to torture the subject but to make him watch, or threaten to do so, the torture of his family members or loved ones. That is something that would never be condoned by any civilized country or society, and rightly so. The second best way is to pay for it, either outright with cash or by other means like granting immunity from certain charges or priviliges, relocation, witness protection programs etc...
By the way, to those who've brought up the Geneva Convention, that only applies to enemy combatants who are fighting for their country in war. It does not apply to terrorists who represent no country and act against innocent victims. Such people are outlaws and respect no law or convention themselves. If they act like rabid animals, killing indiscriminantly without honour, they should be treated as such and put down when the opportunity arises.
Saudi Arabia has been one of the United States' staunchest allies for many decades, which is why the US has protected the current dictatorial regime ever since its existence & likely why so many Saudies hate the US. The US has sided & protected the current Saudi leaders which have oppressed its own citizens for what seems like a lifetime. For many, it makes the US as guilty as those same oppressive regimes.
When were photos of Hitler's body ever shown? From what i studied, he had been burned beyond recognition soon after his suicide because the Nazis holed up with Hitler in his bunker didn't want the Russians to wind up with his body & risk parading it in public.
OJ is & was innocent! He was framed by racist cops like Fuhrman, Philips, Vannater, Lang, etc. He was framed!
He's now serving time on a bogus armed robbery charge. Free the Juice! Free the Juice now!
I don't believe there were ever photos of Hitler's dead body, but there were of Mussolini's. I think the main reason for this is that Hitler's death was by suicide and very carefully and meticuously planned with the Russians closing in. Hitler knew his fate, and his body's fate, was going to be very bad once the Russians got their hands on him, and the planned suicide was a much better option for him.
Mussolini, on the other hand, was captured and executed by Italian partisans, then hung upside down in effigy as a means of humiliating his dead body, and this was photographed:
http://home.comcast.net/~lowe9101/mussolini/d7.htm
The second photo is of Mussolini's mistress, also killed and hung upside down in effigy.
Mussolini, on the other hand, was captured and executed by Italian partisans, then hung upside down in effigy as a means of humiliating his dead body, and this was photographed:
http://home.comcast.net/~lowe9101/mussolini/d7.htm
The second photo is of Mussolini's mistress, also killed and hung upside down in effigy.
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