Possible New Developments in the Bus Beheading Incident!

[Regular Guy]

Just before we leave this topic there have been some new developments. People who knew Li have reported that he was exhibiting all the signs of developing paranoid schzophrenia. When they urged him to seek medical help he would refuse. Now apparently there was a female coworker/friend of McLean's at the front of the bus (Stacey). Apparently Li had been sitting and chatting with this lady for some time as well as chatting with her on a cigarette break. McLean's girlfriend is disturbed by text messages he sent to her shortly before he was attacked suggesting that ecstasy was being used by some people on the bus. This part is not quite clear. It is possible he was not sitting with his coworker because she was the user. This may come out eventually. A close friend described him as one who kept to himself possibly as a result of his small stature. He was only about 5'4" and not a heavy guy(130). Apparently he often would distance himself in social situations which made him feel uncomfortable. The family has reported that after her interview with police she quickly returned to British Columbia.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4208280p-4800747c.html

What does all of this mean? First, if all of this is true, it would seem logical for police to carry out some intense questioning of the female coworker/friend if they can find her. I would be interested in the following:

What did she and Li talk about? Was she in possession of ecstasy? Did she use it on the bus? Did she share it with Li? Did she discuss McLean with Li? If so what was the discussion about?

With this new information coming to light it is now highly suspect that McLean was deliberately targeted by Li. Was Li already borderline psychotic? Would ecstasy have put him over the edge. Could the female coworker/friend have provided the focus for Li to act out in his agitated state?

Now a final caveat is that the evidence for all of this would seem to be sketchy. One Winnipeg reporter I heard interviewed on the radio this morning says that none of this has been verified and therefore there is a strong possibility that all of this is mere speculation, the result of the family trying to come to grips with this horrific act.

 

[EagerBeaver]

RG,

I would think the RCMP would have tried to do a blood, urine or other toxicological test on Li based on his behavior and based on the manner of the homicide. I am not sure whether under Canadian law you can refuse such a test. I know in Connecticut when there is a motor vehicle accident resulting in injuries requiring hospitalization, such tests are mandatory. In other situations blood tests can be refused.

I read that McLean was 5'4", 130 pounds making him a very small man and perhaps an easier target. I have not read any reports on Li's size.

 

[Regular Guy]

RG,

I would think the RCMP would have tried to do a blood, urine or other toxicological test on Li based on his behavior and based on the manner of homicide. I am not sure whether under Canadian law you can refuse such a test. I know in Connecticut when there is a motor vehicle accident resulting in injuries requiring hospitalization, such tests are mandatory.

I read that that McLean was 5'4", 130 pounds making him a very small man and perhaps an easier target. I have not read any reports on Li's size.

Yes drug testing would seem to be a logical step if they suspected it to be a factor. They are very closed mouthed about any developments, however, creating a lot of speculation.
Looking at videos and photos of Li in the presence of police officers he would seem to be a fair size but again we don't have the facts.

 

[docprostate]

Drugs testing

A toxicology panel (drugs testing) is a routine procedure when a patient involve or not in a criminal act is seen by a psychiatrist. All drugs are tested: narcotics, psychotropic, benzodiazepines, anabolic steroids, barbituric, PCP, marijuana, alcohol ... you name it. A psychiatric assessment and diagnosis cannot be done without this.

 

[GTA refugee]

Questions.

- What did Stacey disguss with Li?

- Did Stacey have a grudge against McLean?

- Was it Staceys knife?

- Did Stacey provide Li with extacy?



When the story broke, the attacker was described as being 6 ft + tall which was not true. He is 5-10. The police radio transmissions also have him eating the victim, this also is untrue. The RCMP is unusualy quiet about this case, there is more to this case than we know at this time.

 

[Special K]

Why not just add this to the other two beheading threads?

 

[Regular Guy]

Why not just add this to the other two beheading threads?

I actually thought about that before starting this. It just seemed that the discussion on Nadya's thread had run its course. But no problem as long as we don't lose the train of thought here. Must admit I am having a bit of difficulty finding the new location. Hope this finds its way there.

 

[hormone]

RG,

I would think the RCMP would have tried to do a blood, urine or other toxicological test on Li based on his behavior and based on the manner of the homicide. I am not sure whether under Canadian law you can refuse such a test.

I read that McLean was 5'4", 130 pounds making him a very small man and perhaps an easier target. I have not read any reports on Li's size.

Police here will get such testing as routine procedure, when behavious is as described; if the suspect refuses, a simple court order will suffice, as for alcohol in DUI cases. Urine and blood testing, usually. More types of testing is available through medico-legal facilities than standard hospital tests.

Also of note, size does not matter much if Li was on drugs or psychotic. Many drugs (PCP for example) make you oblivious to physical pain while stoned, so you continue whatever you are doing even if you are hit, injured, etc. Similar situations can arise in severely psychotic people.

 

[Regular Guy]

Mr Li went to court today. Some rather ghoulish details came out. When he was apprehended he had an ear, nose and part of a mouth in his pocket. He had been eating the flesh of his victim. He walked back and forth in the bus brandishing the bloody head of his victim. Police had left him on the bus and he was heard to say that he wanted to stay on the bus forever. But at one point he broke a window, threw out the bloody knife and attempted to jump out. When he hit the ground he was apprehended. He has not been responsive to the process in court. He seemed right out of it. He is under a 24 hour suicide watch and doesn't seem to care whether he gets counsel or not. At one point in court he muttered, "Someone kill me now!" The judge has recommended psychiatric assessment.

 

[alice_wonderland]

When the story broke, the attacker was described as being 6 ft + tall which was not true. He is 5-10. The police radio transmissions also have him eating the victim, this also is untrue. The RCMP is unusualy quiet about this case, there is more to this case than we know at this time.

On news tonight it give more details of attack. It say police report in court reveal he stab 20 to 40 time and do 'actes de cannibalisme'. So I think the part 'have him eating the victim' is true, not untrue.

Alice

 

[Doc Holliday]

The judge has recommended psychiatric assessment.

Boy! That must have been a very tough decision by the judge!!

 

[Regular Guy]

Sanity

Boy! That must have been a very tough decision by the judge!!

Yeah Doc! Ya think? But I just have this mental scenario of 5 or 6 years down the road with the incident all but out of the public imagination and the shrink saying his farewell to a perplexed Mr. Li at the Institute door, "Now Mr. Li we've come a long way in the last 5 years. You be sure to take your meds - Promise? You know what happens when you don't. And the best of luck to you!" Seeing that, that is what actually happened with Jeffrey Arenburg it may not be all that far fetched. One can only hope there is some sanity left in the mental health system. Did I say that?

 

[EagerBeaver]

Greyhound Forced To Scrap Ad Campaign

Greyhound has now been forced to scrap its very expensive "there's a reason you have never heard of bus rage" ad campaign, because of Mr. Li:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/05/greyhound-rage-ad.html?ref=rss
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/06/greyhound-scraps-ads-after-canada-bus-beheading-1/

I guess they never thought someone would engage in bus rage on one of their buses.

 

[hungry101]

Yeah Doc! Ya think? But I just have this mental scenario of 5 or 6 years down the road with the incident all but out of the public imagination and the shrink saying his farewell to a perplexed Mr. Li at the Institute door, "Now Mr. Li we've come a long way in the last 5 years. You be sure to take your meds - Promise? You know what happens when you don't. And the best of luck to you!" Seeing that, that is what actually happened with Jeffrey Arenburg it may not be all that far fetched. One can only hope there is some sanity left in the mental health system. Did I say that?

I love it. The judge is going to have Li submit to a psychiatric observation/evaluation. Gee whiz - the homicide tipped me off. We are of a like mind here Regular Guy. I think the guy should be put to sleep. If he's crazy, thats all the more reason.

BTW - thanks for all the time and effort that you put into the other thread. Very well said.

 

[korbel]

I love it. The judge is going to have Li submit to a psychiatric observation/evaluation. Gee whiz - the homicide tipped me off. We are of a like mind here Regular Guy. I think the guy should be put to sleep. If he's crazy, thats all the more reason.

BTW - thanks for all the time and effort that you put into the other thread. Very well said.

Hello Gentlefolk,

Let's be real about this. Yeah, maybe I share the same concerns about this guy getting off to lightly, in my view, for this heinous act. But, this procedure would be standard in any similar case. The nature of the case itself made this procedure inevitable. No matter what our concerns are about him possibly escaping what in our minds would be appropriate justice, this would have been part of it no matter what. So let's not jump to conclusions so early. At least give the Canadian justice system some chance to work.

Really,

Korbel

 

[Regular Guy]

An appropriate balance?

Hello Gentlefolk,

Let's be real about this. Yeah, maybe I share the same concerns about this guy getting off to lightly, in my view, for this heinous act. But, this procedure would be standard in any similar case. The nature of the case itself made this procedure inevitable. No matter what our concerns are about him possibly escaping what in our minds would be appropriate justice, this would have been part of it no matter what. So let's not jump to conclusions so early. At least give the Canadian justice system some chance to work.

Really,

Korbel

In engaging in this argument my own thinking has changed somewhat, however, though I thank you Hungry101 for your kind sentiments. Though I may not subscribe to the death penalty per se or in all instances I do have some concerns about what our system of justice should be saying to all of us. More and more I feel that pressures on the system to stress forgiveness and rehabilitation may be desensitizing us. It is fine to stress a christian approach but all in its time. In a society rife with violence in act and in the entertainment media we should be ever vigilant in questioning the value we put on human life. Are my fears well founded? I suppose that is the point we could debate here. The theory that all civilizations tend to progress toward a state of chaos (as evidenced by the fall of the Roman Empire, for example) should be always at the back of our minds. I abhor cruelty as I think all good people do and if Mr. Li is truly very ill and not responsible, then okay. But I do believe there will be increasing pressures on the system towards a lenient or rehabilitative approach. And this concerns me. The very nature of Mr. Li's act (and I don't care what level of remorse he is at present exhibiting) should warrant that he is simply too dangerous to be ever allowed among us again. Will we see at some future point, mental health officials, either because of hubris, overcrowding or a misguided belief in their own discipline as an exact science pressure the judicial system to allow the release of Mr. Li back into society? By allowing ourselves to be put back in jeopardy what statement are we making about our own regard for the value of human life?

Finally, are all elements of our own society simply savvy enough to keep these issues in perspective no matter what arguments are put forth? Today on the news we are hearing (what is in my mind a very disturbing initiative by PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals). The have put forth an ad comparing the horrific events which took place on that bus with the experience of animals being harvested in a slaughterhouse. They are further putting this young man's family through a nightmare which never seems to end.

And it doesn't end there. A quasi religious group in the US is proclaiming long and loud that the Lord has visited this tragedy on Canada because of our sins. And they are planning to travel to Canada to the funeral to protest during the funeral. I suppose democracy is unfolding as it should (To paraphrase a famous saying).
Now I appreciate the rights we have won in our collective democracies and I am all for building a better world but at what point can we say that the process is tending to become dysfunctional? Someone has to present the the other side of the argument if only to keep an element of perspective to it all.

 

[Regular Guy]

Just want to add that there are serious concerns by some of the great thinkers of our day that we are sliding into an state of mind where morality and ethics are becoming irrelevant elements of our world. As far back as 1991 a book titled "The Malaise of Modernity" was published. It is based on a collection of lectures given by professor Charles Taylor of McGill University. Incidentally the list of credentials for professor Taylor is most impressive, certainly enough to qualify him as one of the great thinkers of our day. This little book should be required reading for every high school student and strongly suggested for every citizen of our western democracies. He is not alone. You will find similar writings by other authors, Jimmy Carter, for one (just to throw one in for our American cousins ) and many more. I am sure there are many of you out there who would be head and shoulders above me when it would come to adding to this list. In any event it kinda gives one pause when we see a paranoid schizophrenic who has killed being released back onto the street and to watch him reoffend. Oh you say that will never happen. Well it already has - in the case of Jeffrey Arenburg who it would seem suffers from the exact same illness as Mr. Li. Time will tell eh?

 

[Regular Guy]

Tonight Tribute to Tim

If any of you have been moved by Tim McLean having his life taken away from him at such a young age there is quite a large tribute to his memory being organized by friends on Facebook.
A few moments ago I listened to one of his friends interviewed. Apparently the major quality which marked the life of this young man was his penchant for peacemaking. His friend first met Tim when Tim intervened and kept him from a potentially violent conflict by steering him aside. He was well known for his dislike of conflict. The good works we do live on after us. He must have been quite a guy to generate such a tribute.
If you wish to be a part of the tribute or see what it is about and you have a Facebook login then login and type "Tim McLean" into the search string. Apparently at ten o'clock each will light a candle in his memory.