PUA Community: Myth or reality?

[curly]

This thread is inspired by a heated discussion in another thread not related to Pick-up Artists PUA itself.

There seemed to be a large gap in point of view between the self-proclaimed PUA community, and the hobbyist community. I will start by quoting Patron who said:

Pick-up artists fall into three categories.

1. Full of shit guys who are either lying or living in the past.

2. Genuinely rich guys who enjoy amusing themselves with the intricacies of human interaction. They are essentially buying sex with a combination of personality and allure. There is often an element of promising something in the future that will not likely be delivered.

3. Poor guys who have a lot of time on their hands and are faking being #2, above. It is often difficult for a woman in a poorer, foreign country to distinguish between #2 and #3.

From my point of view, it's all about social skills, much less than about money. Of course, you can compensate for your lack of skills if you have a lot of money. But I remember when I was a student, poor as hell, I had a best friend who was having sex with several different very pretty girls every week for years! Very average looking guy. But he knew how to get a girl in his bed. We were all so jealous, but he felt sad, surprisingly! One evening after one too many drinks, he started almost crying telling me "Curly, you're lucky, girls fall in love with you. They just want to fuck me and leave".... But it was obviously not his look or his money that brought those girls in his bed.

And I believe what the PUA "culture" does is trying to hone their skills in order to get free satisfying sex. Hobbyist, as someone said, tend to be more efficient: put cash on the table and get the sex. But it's also empty after a while.

So, what do you think? Bullshit or truth?

I must admit that, in those times of covid, PUA must be idle... so this is a theoritical argument, while we are longing for a "new normal"....

 

[Bbw hunter]

As usual Patron is right but I would add more. The PUA thing should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
Neil Strauss wrote the best-selling biography of Motley Crue called THE DIRT, which I read about 20 years ago. After that Neil claimed he went from High School nerd to a master seducer and wrote a book about it. I remember him promoting it on Howard Stern.
I also remember being very amused that a best-selling author and quasi-celebrity was now bragging about his skill at picking up women, as if this was some major feat for a guy with money and fame. Of course he became a PUA. Duh! If Pauley Shore was able to bang porn stars in the 90s certainly Neil could get some action as well.
I am a bit too old to pick up girls now so am out of loop. Must be a weird scene out there now with MeToo, Covid, etc.
I can tell you back in the day in the bar scene there was really no such thing as an actual PUA. Sure some guys got luckier than others based on looks, charm, etc. However unless you were a pro athlete or celebrity you didn't have women swooning over you every night...even attractive guys would strike out some nights. Plus there was no such thing as a guaranteed pick up line or strategy. If a girl found you cute she would shoot you a quick glance which signalled that she was open to a conversation, and you took it from there.
So in conclusion I would say this concept was always kind of a myth.

 

[curly]

I think the feminist movement is trying, and somehow succeeding, to emasculate men in North America. When you look at the culture they're trying to instill (women are strong, men are lazy drinkers, women fighting is sexy, men are disposable and women choose, they make us a wreck after divorce, we are sexy only if we pay for them, flirting is harassment, etc) I am not surprised that there is a backlash in the form of an aggressive seduction game to break those rules.

However, if you read carefully what really is a PUA literature, it's not about scamming the girls. It's about giving the guys skills and much needed self confidence to face today's women. Don't just read what they say about PUA, read the PUA material itself. So I am not throwing the rock at anyone. There are braggers, there are people doing marketing around this, there is exaggeration and seduction is certainly not an exact science that will get you laid every night with the girl you want. But there are also men suffering, disheartened and helpless that this approach help.

Let's agree that if you have cash or looks, you'll do well (most of the time, let's say). But if you have neither, what do you do? Call escorts all your life? You have to make up for it in self-confidence and social skills. Where do you learn these social skills? Where do you learn to flirt? Not in School, where they teach you the #metoo bullshit and where you learn that anything you ever say to a girl will be held against you 30 years later! Even without proof, even after you die, even for things you haven't said or done, she just has to say you've done them! Girls are all good, naive and pure, guys are assholes.They emasculate men I tell you!

Men learning about how to game girls don't all become irresistible PUA or assholes. But hopefully they will develop the skills to bridge the gap between what girls expect of a guy when dating, and the self confidence that men must demonstrate to seduce a girl they like. If you "game" a girl correctly, she will actually enjoy the interaction, have fun and want to know you more, instead of feeling harassed.

I'm saying this because I played on both fronts, gaming and hobbying. I was bullied in high school and my self confidence was beyond desperate after my teenage. I used the hobby a lot and am so thankful for these women who were were kind, tender and patient with me. In my thirties, after divorce, I discovered the PUA literature and it made an immense difference in my life. I'm not saying that I morphed into a deadly seducer, but it allowed me to approach girls I liked and develop relationships or sometimes casual sex with them. I found myself successful with much younger girls sometimes, and certainly much prettier girls than I ever thought I could ever approach. Not 100% of the time, but often enough for me to feel fulfilled.

One of the interesting thing that I discovered in life is that there are as many girls who are desperate about meeting a good guy as there are guys thinking this will never happen. Seduction between a man and a woman is a codified game. Too many people approach dating as a checklist: You have dog? You smoke? You like to go camping? You want kids? You really believe in God, are you kidding me!!! You're in or you're out! Proper game skills help you understand a little bit more how to make conversations and keep things fun, light and entertaining for the girl you're with. And I assure you that if you do this correctly, women appreciate this as you do, because they don't feel awkward and preyed on and you're both having a good time.

Now, that being said, I also enjoy hobbying, when I want to cut the bullshit and enjoy a simple good time with a classy lady. Sometimes I just want good sex with no drama.So both have their place, for different purposes!

Go for it Patron now! Flame me! lol!

 

[Anna Bijou]

Is that still a thing?

sorry, couldn't help myself.

Carry on...

 

[Numerati]

I read Neil Strauss book when it was first published. That was how I was introduced to the PUA community. The only thing that caught my attention and got me really intrigued was he mentioned the two words: stacking orgasms. He didn't explore and explain stacking orgasms but I went to work and find things out myself. After finishing the book I was not at all interested to learn further about their techniques/lifestyle as it is all revolve around women and getting into their panties. I was interested in pushing my DNA and testing my limits at any chance I can get and I viewed constantly trying to get with women got in the way as there are only 24 hours in a day. LOL. Plus also how to put more zeroes into my bank account was my other main focus.

But I did go and learn and reading up about stacking female orgasms. Holy shit. Ha ha.

 

[Anna Bijou]

Since you don’t seem to be an inanimate object, is there a way for a guy to pick you, or your friends, up?

yeah being himself and not following a script or manipulating is usually a great start

 

[curly]

yeah being himself and not following a script or manipulating is usually a great start

Anna, you're reacting exactly like the girls i described previoulsy: independent, despising a poor guy who would not know how to go up and talk to you. I don't blame you, you may choose whom you want. And you don't want to be with a looser (unless he pays...) But try to imagine what it looks like from a guy's point of view to go up and talk to a girl who is waiting for him like this, trying to decrypt if he is hitting on her or if he's using a script. And these girls press the eject button as soon as they have any doubt.

If you think having good game is about following a script, then you don't understand.

It's about being sociable, making you feel comfortable with him, making you have a good time and developing a connection. Instead of making you feel akward, hit on or bored.

It's about having social skills. If he's following a script then he doesn't have skills. It's about meeting people, widening your social circle instead of staying lonely in your corner. More importantly for you girls, it's also about moving on and not insisting if a girl is not interested in you (i.e not falling desperately and hopelessly in love with only one girl thinking you will never be happy with anyone else). I'm sure girls don't have objections to guys moving on instead on keeping insisting or being harassing.

Don't believe what journalists write about PUA or what you see in the movies. They too are there to sell a paper or a movie. They will create a character for you to be appalled or interested. Instead read the real litterature and forums to get an appreciation of what it is in reality.

In other terms, if a guy have good social skills, girls also benefit. What's wrong with that picture?

 

[jmioffe]

Something interesting about this thread -- all the cited examples are Jewish men. Henry Winkler, Neil Strauss, obviously so but Pauly Shore too. Even Tucker Max and Adam Carolla have Jewish grandparents. Patron, are you Jewish?

 

[curly]

ironically few asked him if he is Jewish when he worked as a carpenter (which was his occupation prior to entertainment).

Ishhhh!! I understand why he didn't say anything and changed career! It's dangerous to be a Jewish carpenter... I know of at least one who finished on a cross...

 

[Fradi]

Never believed in this whole PUA bull.
If you look half decent and can carry a conversation, you just need to be polite and not be an egotistical asshole.
You don't need pick up lines just be yourself and if you have a sense of humour it helps a lot.

 

[bobbyc]

Never believed in this whole PUA bull.
If you look half decent and can carry a conversation, you just need to be polite and not be an egotistical asshole.
You don't need pick up lines just be yourself and if you have a sense of humour it helps a lot.

also dont believe in this pua bull
why is everyone looking for a trick there is no trick be yourself be nice have fun have a sense of humor and girls will be attracted to you now that being said does not mean youll pick up the girl you want at that specific moment but thats the way life is you will please some ladies and some will be indifferent.
there is no magic trick you have to put a little work into it thats all, most woman like to be treated or feel that they are special if you can achieve that you ll be on your way .
now if your 50 or 60 and you want to pick up a 25 or 30 year old lady well im sorry to tell you this guys your going to need to put in the time and the work and your going to need money thats just the way it is never saw a 50 year old man without money walking around with a young babe but i have seen the opposite many times.
so if you stick within i guess 15 years of your age just be yourself dont try and prove anything most woman dont like men who try to be something there not.

 

[Numerati]

Here is a predicament of being a PUA in a foreign country.

Think about this. If you are/were a "successful" PUA in a foreign country feel free to chime in.

Great. You hit some sort of jackpot. You moved to *insert foreign country* and you are able to build some sort of location independent business and you are raking $10,000 USD per month. Given you are taking advantage of the geographical arbitrage you are living it up from the favorable exchange rate. You are hooking up with the local women left and right and you feel you are on the top of the world. Awesome. Congrats. Honestly it is a tough feat to accomplish to become self made and self paid and no one to answer to with "unlimited" women at your disposal. Say one day you met that girl of your dreams in your new home country where you want to settle down with. Somewhere along the line you will want to come back to the states because you miss America and its conveniences and you got tired of your host country, because you miss your family in the U.S., there was an opportunity in the U.S. that will take your business to new heights, etc. So now you have a dilemma. Do you choose to stay in your new home country and be with your local girlfriend as it has become serious or do you take her with you to the U.S. where she will surely be corrupted by Western feminism and highly likely screw you over?

I am asking this is because I was a guy that lightly dated but banged one of these foreign girls that came over with her PUA bf because he returned to the U.S. with her. Long story short I met her at my gym as we both took the same HIIT class. I noticed her right away the first day I joined and stepped into that gym but I minded my own business. Didn't really interacted with her until some nine months later as I became a regular attendee at the HIIT class. It was kind of messed up to put it simply. She did went back to him but a few months later they broke up and she returned back to her home country.

 

[curly]

Just "be yourself" is such a cliché!!! What if you are yourself and no chica care? Are you doomed for life? If you try to do something to improve yoirself then it's gimmicks or BS?

I'm sorry but if you don't know how and what to do and you're just "nice" you will NEVER to "pick up the girl you want." You'll just end up being the "good friend" of the girl, who is going to just go fuck the other guy instead. Girls really love having admirers and male friends, it's good for their image and self esteem.

And I'm sorry, if you are playful and good company, and you are not trying to get them to marry you, you can certainly pick up a much younger woman without putting money on the table. They need company too and often are discouraged by the attitude of guys their age. Don't try to have the teenage attitude at 54, you'll just offer her the same she gets, just in an older body! If you play your strengths right, it can very well be done. I was amazed myself to discover the number of younger woman looking for maturity! That can actually be an advantage.

 

[Anna Bijou]

PUA is just a game. If you are looking to just try to be a 'player'..by all means. But someone posted a great comment in the Tinder thread about just meeting girls without it being forced, by signing up for yoga or dancing classes.. That's what the 'cliche' to be yourself partly means. PUA crap is forced and disingenuous.

 

[Numerati]

PUA is just a game. If you are looking to just try to be a 'player'..by all means. But someone posted a great comment in the Tinder thread about just meeting girls without it being forced, by signing up for yoga or dancing classes.. That's what the 'cliche' to be yourself partly means. PUA crap is forced and disingenuous.

LOL.

Actually other than salsa/tango classes my intention was to go improve myself, evolve and experience new environments. Not to meet women. Especially improv and workout classes. Then it is to socialize and meet people and hopefully high quality people. Just want to go make friends/see familiar faces as making/developing friendships when you are an adult is kind of tough unlike when you are in school. Taking HIIT and yoga classes you are going to run into people who are "better" than you so that is a plus. If given a social environment where the female population outnumbers the male the chances of you finding someone who is high quality and a match will be high. You are committed and show up long enough you are going to see familiar faces and after a while you start saying Hi and acknowledging each other then there some conversation and etc. If you both hit it off then one thing will lead to another on its own. That was how I met a few clients for my work/business and my wife. Ha. No immediate instant gratification. It took some time.

 

[Skym]

On topic of PUA...What's everyone's take on Tinder?

 

[Numerati]

On topic of PUA...What's everyone's take on Tinder?

Tinder and other dating apps | Montreal Escorts Review Board Forum | Merb

 

[TheQuestion]

Here is a predicament of being a PUA in a foreign country.

Think about this. If you are/were a "successful" PUA in a foreign country feel free to chime in.

Great. You hit some sort of jackpot. You moved to *insert foreign country* and you are able to build some sort of location independent business and you are raking $10,000 USD per month. Given you are taking advantage of the geographical arbitrage you are living it up from the favorable exchange rate. You are hooking up with the local women left and right and you feel you are on the top of the world. Awesome. Congrats. Honestly it is a tough feat to accomplish to become self made and self paid and no one to answer to with "unlimited" women at your disposal. Say one day you met that girl of your dreams in your new home country where you want to settle down with. Somewhere along the line you will want to come back to the states because you miss America and its conveniences and you got tired of your host country, because you miss your family in the U.S., there was an opportunity in the U.S. that will take your business to new heights, etc. So now you have a dilemma. Do you choose to stay in your new home country and be with your local girlfriend as it has become serious or do you take her with you to the U.S. where she will surely be corrupted by Western feminism and highly likely screw you over?

I am asking this is because I was a guy that lightly dated but banged one of these foreign girls that came over with her PUA bf because he returned to the U.S. with her. Long story short I met her at my gym as we both took the same HIIT class. I noticed her right away the first day I joined and stepped into that gym but I minded my own business. Didn't really interacted with her until some nine months later as I became a regular attendee at the HIIT class. It was kind of messed up to put it simply. She did went back to him but a few months later they broke up and she returned back to her home country.

It seems most of the foreign PUA's would choose to stay in their foreign country and not come back to the Western Country.

 

[TheQuestion]

Here's my take, having been part of both communities:

Hobby/Mongering/Using escorts: Get laid everytime for reasonable price(in countries where its legal)
PUA/Social Circle Game/Online Game: Invest big amounts of money, effort and time and get laid inconsistently

Ironically, most feminists and independent woman are against PUA when people who have been doing PUA for awhile think it caters to "female desires." So if a woman isn't feeling in the mood no amount of Game skill can help you to even go on a date with you. Its the opposite dynamics of a stripclub when the strippers try to cater to the client's need's and wants.

 

[curly]

PUA is just a game.

Seduction is a game Anna.... But if you don't know how to play, you lose every time!

As a highly sought after woman, you probably don't need to know much about how to approach a man you want. More often then not, they will likely at least listen to you or return your smile. Men will not give you an attitude if they believe you try to hit on them. I'm not saying they will all fall for you, but at least you get a decent chance.

But if you are an average guy, student in accounting wearing glasses and brown socks, timid and with very few women in your environment, you probably need to learn some of the basics. Otherwise, you can be yourself all you want, nobody will care. And if you're in this situation, whom do you learn this from?

Early on in my life, I followed diligently all the advices I received from girls about how to behave with them and be a good man. And I did end up with a whole phone book worth of very pretty girls' phone numbers to call and go out with. I remember an evening when I went out with one of these girls, so pretty! I was strongly attracted to her, and she knew it. In the middle of the evening, she leaves me 2 min to go to the washroom. Then I see her talking to a guy for 30 sec before return to our table. And she tells me "you don't have to drive me home, I'm going to his place, we're going to have sex after this". You have no idea how this made me feel, and the wink this guy made to me from across the bar... I felt so humiliated, ashamed and hurt. I was young and so stupid back then. If this happened to me today, I would just stand up and leave. But back then I was a nice man, so I continued to chat with her, make her laugh and have a good time and warmed her up for the next guy! And things like this happened all the time. When this happens once in a while, you get upset that one night, and move on. But when this happens to you all the time, when you have never success and only humiliation, then you are deeply sad, lonely and helpless. But you don't know how to do things differently. And as I'm writing this, I am absolutely certain there are multiple other men in here who went through something like this.

I'm sure you know some men like I was back then, Anna. Very good guys, they do all the right things, look good, are pleasant, make you laugh, respect you. But you feel nothing. And therefore wouldn't consider them.

So, there is one very important thing I learned painfully in life: Do not follow any advice from any woman about how you must conduct yourself to be considered as an option by her or her peers, she likely does not know herself!!!

I recognize that there are assholes amongst the PUA community. Self-proclaimed PUA looking for a commercial success and/or men who are disingenuous with women, and jerks taking advantage of men in a position of weakness. But if you go beyond the cliches you see on screen and if you read a bit around, there is another mentality as well in this group. It's about having the confidence to approach someone you don't know and who will likely reject you, having the courage and perseverance to face that rejection and try again, about making this fun for both the man and the woman and avoiding the trap of becoming "just a friend". And, of course, for starters, it's about grooming to be at your best... lose the brown socks, get some contact lenses! You know, the basics. Having a group of men ready to teach the basics to another group of men is actually something good. Yes there are sharks in this group of men. But I assure you there are some very decent guys who will teach others that they don't deserve being stepped on just because they're "nice" and will teach them how to handle themselves to be an option for this woman, instead of letting her step on them to go have sex with the next guy. And also avoid falling hopelessly in love with every single girl you court: if she's not interested, move on, there are 3 billions of them on earth! It is not about being disrespectful or manipulative to a woman, it's about being your best self to become an option instead of becoming the "good friend". And I feel this is fair.

For every arrogant PUA jerk, there are at least 10 clumsy guys trying courageously to improve themselves and to learn some basic skills to approach women in an attempt to have a fulfilling relationship with at least one of them. That is not worth laughing at.