PUA Community: Myth or reality?

[Anna Bijou]

So, this link you shared is very interesting because while it does share legitimate concerns, I feel they stem from looking at things with a preconceived notion of what Pick up is and then understanding terms through that lens.

The Author goes over several concepts which he feels are Toxic and I hope to demonstrate here that they are not toxic at all when viewed correctly.

Make the HO say no

The author appears to read this as pestering a woman until she either agrees to have an interaction with you or forcefully says NO! But thats not reading the concept right at all.

This is meant to address the fact that most women when first approach will instinctively respond negatively. This is empirically true 90% plus of the time. Several theories are out there to explain this: the very real fear of meeting a psycho pervert is one for example, an instinctual way of testing the resolve of a potential mate is another. Whatever the reason the phenomenon is quite real.

So the idea behind this concept is not to leave the game until its truly game over. While it may seem to encourage pushy behavior a proper reading will see that what you want to apply here is a little bit of persistence.

Anecdote: I stopped a woman in a dowtown mall once and I could tell she was amused by my approach but she said she was married.

I responded with: ''I can be discreet''.

Well it turns out she was on a business trip away from her husband and that slight bit of persistence opened the door for a week bliss

As you can see, not pushy and rapey just persistent.

Gameification of women

The author believes (like a lot of people) that putting a rating to a woman is reprehensible.

First the concept wasn't invented by PUAs, hobbists have used ever since message boards were invented. There is no good way of comparing two women's looks but just because that scale is used, do you really think it means we are dehumanizing them? Reducing their value to a mere number? No Just like in Hobbying I can have a fantastic time with you but when i write the review I have to give hard numbers. Maybe it is a bit nerdy but dehumanizing?

Also, the difficulty rating associated with the number is a real thing. Of course it's possible to meet a 5 who has a huge social circle and thinks she's the bees knees and too good for you and it is also possible to meet a 9 that is lonely, new to the city or just a bit nerdy like us. However these are exceptions. The hotter the girl, the more her social life is busy. The more her phone is buzzing all day with messages from dozens of guys inviting her to partys, boat rides, etc etc.

Another aspect is the intimidation ability that a woman's looks gives her. A gorgeous woman has the ability to put a man in his place with a single withering glance. Chatting up a 6 and chatting up a 9 might seem the same but the inner struggle is very very different.

As I mentioned in another post, hobbying does allow one to get better at dealing with cute girls. Remember for us Nerds back in highschool even if you would have started up a conversation with us we would have answered in monosyllabic nonsense

ASD, LMR and BR

All of these three concepts are linked together (although the author doesn't address buyer's remorse at all) and he seems to think they are the most toxic of ideas actually encouraging rape. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Choosing the right mate is paramount for a woman. Much less so than for a man. Most women find the idea of hooking up with a man who doesnt deserve it repugnant. Actually that explains why women hate the idea of Pick up because they would of course prefer to meet and have sex with a guy who is naturally deserving of her affections. Women will often berate themselves for having had drunken hookup or for once again having sex with that guy that has commitement issues.

As a PUA you will encounter resistance at each of the steps of the game of seduction. At each resistance you must first determine if the resistance is real (in which case you stop all escalation and leave her alone) of if it is her having doubts and second thoughts. The worst thing a guy can do in this situation is say: ''Hey I thought we had a good time, whats wrong i'm not good enough for you?'' or some other nonsense. My go to is the freeze out (which the author also seems to take issue with) in which case I will stop my advances cold and propose a movie or a board game or just talking. The idea is to give her time to appreciate me and make her see I'm not a sex-starved desperate chode. If she really was into me this whole time it will be a momentary break until she jumps me. In all cases, I have zero interest in bedding a woman who doesn't want me. I find the idea of tricking a woman into bed without her full enthusiastic consent to be abhorent and its actually one of the reasons why I very rarely hobby anymore

I love this quote : "A gay bathhouse is a whorehouse staffed by volunteers."

Young straight guys ask me a lot how they can get women to be more like gay men, why there isn't a Grindr with girls on it who want to just come over and do whatever.

And they look at gay bathhouses and wonder why there isn't a straight equivalent to gay Bath houses...

And there is. It's a whorehouse.
A gay bathhouse is a whorehouse staffed by volunteers.

Lol


Start 20:48 is pretty interesting and entertaining. I love Dan savage.

 

[TheQuestion]

Here's some extra observations/insight/Experience in the Game:

Easy Mode:
Stripclubs (Almost no PUA's)
-More women than men.
-Lots of sexually liberated women.
-Most guys are not a competition(married or already have many women)
-Strippers approach you.
-The objection many guys will say is, "We'll, but the dancer only wants you for money!" But the same can be said about women going to the nightclub, "But the guys only want you for sex!" What matters is that you know how to navigate with this knowledge and work it in your favor.

Medium Mode:
VIP Tables (Very few PUA since most can't afford to get in)
-More women than men.
-More "party girls" type who is out looking for experiences.
Most Promoters are not in the competition since they are usually paired already or have too much abundance of caring about.
-The few guys who get there tend to have money and focus on one or two women.
-PUA techniques work better since women are naturally more receptive.
-

Hard Mode
(I would say 80-90% of the PUA's are doing Hard mode since the students are broke
and the coaches don't want to pay more money to get into more exclusive venues):

Bars or popular nightclubs with a low barrier of entry
-Free entry where most guys can get in.
-More men than women.
Since there is no filter, many guys will do random and weird stuff, which will scare the women.
-Many women will be less receptive since they have to reject tons of guys even if they like you.
-You will have to do all these "AMOG tactics" to battle the other guys.
Some women might like you, but then she might have a BF, and she'll introduce you(It happened to me once!)

 

[Fradi]

Sorry but I read through all this and I always equated PUA as guys who were reasonably good looking and had an easy time with picking up girls.
What I am reading here is the exact opposite, a bunch of nerdy guys drooling over women they don’t have a chance with and paying scam artists a lot of money and in the end still coming up empty handed most of the time.

I personally don’t believe in any of this PUA but do agree that for some guys it comes naturally.
I used to have a friend about ten years older than me he was a professional athlete who played on the same team with me.
He was 6’3, blond, blue eyes and the kind of looks that women did a double take when he walked by. He also had the gift of a unique sense of humour and story telling ability. He basically had the full arsenal to impress and seduce women.
Unfortunately while he was an extremely good athlete and friend as far as a drinking buddy goes, in real life with women he was a total sleaze ball.
He had a wife who was ten years younger than him who could easily have been a centrefold model and two of the most beautiful blonde little girls I have ever seen. The children did magazine modelling. He was hardly ever home.
He hated work and avoided it at all costs, even after his playing career was over, he did work as a bouncer at a strip club for a while.
He basically fucked any female that came into contact with him, he has 6 children from three different wives who live in three different countries, of course he doesn’t keep in contact with any of them. He is now a broke old man who spends his time drinking and playing cards in a downtown club, he no longer has his youthful good looks and is a pitiful shell of his former self.

 

[Blackjackmac]

Sorry but I read through all this and I always equated PUA as guys who were reasonably good looking and had an easy time with picking up girls.
What I am reading here is the exact opposite, a bunch of nerdy guys drooling over women they don’t have a chance with and paying scam artists a lot of money and in the end still coming up empty handed most of the time.

Wow.... even after all you've read here that's what you end up concluding?

 

[curly]

Wow.... even after all you've read here that's what you end up concluding?

Maybe he didn't read it....

 

[joeca]

The rating system is such a male thing, I can't even begin to relate to. Lol

I can't speak for all women but I'm pretty sure I can't be alone in just finding that perspective so perplexing. Rating system? It is a male thing. Lol and like, it's a real system. A guy says a 7 and the other guy knows exactly what that means lol

BTW I'm not laughing or putting anything down, I've just always loved being like a fly on the wall and hearing guy talk in action. I'm sure men feel the same about girl talk.

I give this comment a 6.5

 

[Fradi]

Wow.... even after all you've read here that's what you end up concluding?

Why what would you describe it as.
I don’t get this whole PUA academy concept of internship/ apprenticeship paying scam artists to teach you what exactly,
common sense and a bit of self confidence, for me you will probably learn much more from a kind and gorgeous SP and if nothing else she will give you some much needed sex without all the BS.

 

[Blackjackmac]

Why what would you describe it as.
I don’t get this whole PUA academy concept of internship/ apprenticeship paying scam artists to teach you what exactly,
common sense and a bit of self confidence, for me you will probably learn much more from a kind and gorgeous SP and if nothing else she will give you some much needed sex without all the BS.

I’m not going into any large post anymore you obviously don’t read them.

I said some PUAs were scammers not all of them.

A gorgeous woman cannot teach you anything about pick up. She just cannot relate to your situation at all because ever since she entered puberty every man she has met has been trying to fuck her.

 

[Fradi]

Okay here is my take on it.
You seem to think there is some kind of gold medal out there to be earned and a title as PUA.
I basically think it is all BS and laugh at it.
I have never looked at any woman as a game or contest and that I need some kind of special skills that I need to study.
I am just an ordinary guy who was some what decent looking in his youth. When I approached anybody it was because I was attracted to them and I wanted to get to know them and possibly have a relationship, not just to fuck them and put another notch or be able to tell my buddies that I scored again and discuss the techniques I used. I think most women worth anything can spot the ones who are genuine and perhaps that is the real reason these nerd so called PUA score a blank most often.
I managed to spend a life time with the woman of my dreams, still have a fabulous family and grandchildren that I see every week so no I have no idea what you are trying to achieve by this post what so ever. You want people to congratulate you that you have achieved the status of PUA great I am happy for you.

 

[Markishere]

Why all this rules and steps? Just be. Approach her with conviction. Believe in yourself, and just try. Try to make her smile, try to make her laugh. You are halfway accomplished this way. Don't demand or expect a woman affection/attention back. That's her choice. Go with the flow. If it works out, be clear with your intentions and if it changes. One night stand? If it's for fwb, no strings attached or more. Don't lead her on with lies, and false promises, just to have her readily available for you when you're in need or to stroke your ego. I personally would never give compliments I believe not to be true myself, nor tell someone I love them if I don't feel that way. It's the least I could do.

 

[Blackjackmac]

Okay here is my take on it.
You seem to think there is some kind of gold medal out there to be earned and a title as PUA.
I basically think it is all BS and laugh at it.
I have never looked at any woman as a game or contest and that I need some kind of special skills that I need to study.
I am just an ordinary guy who was some what decent looking in his youth. When I approached anybody it was because I was attracted to them and I wanted to get to know them and possibly have a relationship, not just to fuck them and put another notch or be able to tell my buddies that I scored again and discuss the techniques I used. I think most women worth anything can spot the ones who are genuine and perhaps that is the real reason these nerd so called PUA score a blank most often.
I managed to spend a life time with the woman of my dreams, still have a fabulous family and grandchildren that I see every week so no I have no idea what you are trying to achieve by this post what so ever. You want people to congratulate you that you have achieved the status of PUA great I am happy for you.

I really resent the fact that you keep pinning bad intentions on me as though you are somehow morally superior. So I actively look for women to have sexual relationships with? What’s wrong with that? Instead of paying them I have switched to seducing them and making our time together about both of us pleasing each other and showing her a great time.

I have no idea why you bring up your family here. Is it because you believe we don’t or somehow are incapable of making human connections because we are « soulless seducers »?

I’m not trying to « achieve » anything by this post. I have been practicing seduction for the better part of a decade. I saw a thread on it and thought I would chime in. My basic point is and remains this: The sex you will get from a woman who has chosen you as her lover is orders of magnitude better than the one you get by paying for it. That is not an insult to SPs who do a wonderful job, it’s just a fact.

 

[Blackjackmac]

Don't demand or expect a woman affection/attention back.. Don't lead her on with lies, and false promises, just to have her readily available for you when you're in need or to stroke your ego.

Who says that’s what we do?

 

[Fradi]

I really resent the fact that you keep pinning bad intentions on me as though you are somehow morally superior. So I actively look for women to have sexual relationships with? What’s wrong with that? Instead of paying them I have switched to seducing them and making our time together about both of us pleasing each other and showing her a great time.

I have no idea why you bring up your family here. Is it because you believe we don’t or somehow are incapable of making human connections because we are « soulless seducers »?

I’m not trying to « achieve » anything by this post. I have been practicing seduction for the better part of a decade. I saw a thread on it and thought I would chime in. My basic point is and remains this: The sex you will get from a woman who has chosen you as her lover is orders of magnitude better than the one you get by paying for it. That is not an insult to SPs who do a wonderful job, it’s just a fact.

Nope,
You are the one coming on here proclaiming your superior abilities and implying that a woman you seduce provides better sex than the one you pay for.
Perhaps for you yes because it plays up to your ego of being a PUA, why do you assume it is for others.
I have had many mediocre sex sessions with civi women that didn’t even come close to the ones provided by some of the SP I have seen. Sex is not just about being into you, SP have honed their skills and know exactly how to please a man, perhaps they could have an apprenticeship for civi women to learn some of their talents.

I will totally agree that there is nothing like being with a woman you are in love with but that is definitely not what you are on about. That feeling cannot be taught, there is no apprenticeship for it, but that is not just about sex.

 

[TheQuestion]

PUA is real and hobbying is fun too. These activities are not in a competition. They are completely different. Its like saying what's better surfing or skateboarding.

You can do both. I was in Las Vegas on strip clubs getting lap dances then headed to hostels to do some PUA.

 

[Fradi]

You can do both. I was in Las Vegas on strip clubs getting lap dances then headed to hostels to do some PUA.

Sorry but what have strip clubs got to do with either topic.
The only thing happening in a Vegas strip club is you are getting fleeced, but that is another topic altogether.

 

[Fradi]

Patron,

You didn’t know that the most attractive girls intentionally hang out at hostels because that is where all the most eligible and affluent men congregate, which girl is not on the look out for someone who frequents hostels. The rest are in strip joints lol.
Need I say more about PUA.

btw one of the most difficult people on the planet to pick up is a Stripper, they are there simply to hustle you for money and 99% of the time you leave with blue balls, if they wanted to fuck you they would also be working as SP.

 

[Blackjackmac]

Nope,
You are the one coming on here proclaiming your superior abilities ....

Dude, you have to tell me who your pusher is because that is some awesome stuff you are smoking.
I didn't once say I had 'superior abilities'. In fact it's entirely possible that my development in pick up has only brought to your level of awesomeness

Seeing an SP cannot compare with seeing a woman for which you are her lover. Simple things like showing up at her place and she is cooking in a maid'S outfit because she knows it will drive you crazy. Or coming over at your place and dropping her overcoat to reveal a sexy number. Taking a woman shopping and having sex in the changing rooms. The situations and experiences you will have cannot possibly be covered by an SP since they stem from her genuine fantasies and desires. Of course its entirely possible that you meet a woman who is a starfish in bed but there are ways of figuring this out way before you ever have sex (its called qualification in PUA terms but of course that doesn't interest you.)

Of course, you will want to keep believing that PUA is about nerdy asian guys hanging out in hostels trying harass women. Go ahead, keep believing that, less competition for the rest of us

 

[Fradi]

Of course, you will want to keep believing that PUA is about nerdy asian guys hanging out in hostels trying harass women. Go ahead, keep believing that, less competition for the rest of us

Dude, I am old fashioned as you may have guessed by now, I don’t touch drugs of any kind, a good bottle of wine or two yes.

I was never in competition with anybody and never looked at it as such.
As far as what you are talking about I had all of that and more without thinking of myself as PUA or anything special.
I just happened to always genuinely like women and I guess this came across, didn’t need to practice anything or try to be anything other than who I was.
Just to clue you in I only started hobbying 3 years ago, ( I did have escorts payed as gifts in my younger years by sports fans team sponsors, but that is another story ) not because I can’t attract women in my own age bracket but simply because I am not interested in dating as it would always be an unfair comparison to the one I lost and the fact that someone you love will always be the most attractive but dating a stranger well the ones in my age bracket just don’t do it for me anymore.
I also happen to be a realist something that will catch up with you eventually also, when you acquire a taste for gorgeous young women half your age you can practise and hone your PUA skills all you want $$$ will always prevail, so you treat these SP with kindness and respect and a whole new and enjoyable world opens to you, yeah it will never come close to the one you loved but it helps.

btw I never thought it was nerdy Asian guys it was one of your members that enlightened everybody on that fact.
I always knew them to be Italian wise guy wannabes at least they were in my time, ( Patron gave you an example the Fonze was mildly modelled on that) I don’t think much has changed though most women probably still laugh their ass off when the subject comes up or cringe.

 

[curly]

Patron makes a valid point: is the time invested in furthering your skills to get free sex worth the investment, as compared to investing in your education and experience.

Well, Patron, you can walk and chew at the same time. And as some people say, the social skills you learn from learning PUA stuff or seduction or whatever you want to call this, are fully transferable in your professional life. They are actually very useful. But if you spend all your nights out instead of studying, well.... But like in most things in life, it takes balance.

Now let's talk about the human aspect of this. Yes indeed there are some scammers, guys who pretend to know how, that will teach you a foolproof recipe to get laid. And THAT is bullshit. Because humans are humans, and you can plan your interactions with others as much as you want, there is one thing you can be absolutely sure of: it will not go as planned.

There are also other that talk about the "inner journey". Working on yourself, on your social skills, learning to read others and their reactions for the purpose of adapting, all of this takes time and dedication. And takes the humility to accept that you are not perfect and that there is room for improvement. But this is where you actually see improvements and results, however you define results for you.

And there are guys who are not ready for this. They are looking for a method, a shortcut, a recipe that you can repeat, a piece of clothing that will make them irresistible. Like the asian guys someone in the thread talked about.

Usually the latter guys get along with the PUA scammers. One sells shortcuts, the other is a buyer. And they ruin the game for all others. Or not, because they are not at all in the game!

But I can assure you that if you are diligent, if you work your skills, and if you are patient and supported by others who actually know what they are doing (one buddy I was going out with was regularly achieving kissing a girl he had just met 2 hours before! I wanted to learn from him). I made friends who turned from total zit to decent guys. And it's not about your look, I remember one of them a sporty type of guy, tall, very good looking and all the girls came to chat with him. But he was so clumsy that they all left after a few minutes... He didn't know what to say, was silent, or talked about wheather. So it did make a huge difference in his life, made a huge difference in mine and I saw the difference it made for a few buddies.

Whether you call this personal improvement, or PUA skills, learning to be yourself or whatever, I don't care. What I mean is that the skill you need to develop to meet women and get their interest is something you learn. Now some people want casual sex (girls too, by the way!), while some others want relationships. I will leave it up to them to decide this, if they can talk together first and get along!

Finally someone said Strip Clubs is good territory for gaming! I remember a dancer that I gamed so much that she was french kissing me for an hour in the booth! For free! That was fun, and she was having fun too! I know you think I'm bragging here, but I swear it happened. I also had for 3 years a girlfriend, less than half my age, who was a model, ended up in the industry also. And the guy I was at 20 would have never been able to even think of the remote possiblity of doing something like this.

 

[Blackjackmac]

Dude, I am old fashioned as you may have guessed by now, I don’t touch drugs of any kind, a good bottle of wine or two yes.

I was never in competition with anybody and never looked at it as such.
As far as what you are talking about I had all of that and more without thinking of myself as PUA or anything special.
I just happened to always genuinely like women and I guess this came across, didn’t need to practice anything or try to be anything other than who I was.
Just to clue you in I only started hobbying 3 years ago, ( I did have escorts payed as gifts in my younger years by sports fans team sponsors, but that is another story ) not because I can’t attract women in my own age bracket but simply because I am not interested in dating as it would always be an unfair comparison to the one I lost and the fact that someone you love will always be the most attractive but dating a stranger well the ones in my age bracket just don’t do it for me anymore.
I also happen to be a realist something that will catch up with you eventually also, when you acquire a taste for gorgeous young women half your age you can practise and hone your PUA skills all you want $$$ will always prevail, so you treat these SP with kindness and respect and a whole new and enjoyable world opens to you, yeah it will never come close to the one you loved but it helps.

btw I never thought it was nerdy Asian guys it was one of your members that enlightened everybody on that fact.
I always knew them to be Italian wise guy wannabes at least they were in my time, ( Patron gave you an example the Fonze was mildly modelled on that) I don’t think much has changed though most women probably still laugh their ass off when the subject comes up or cringe.

I am truly happy you had awesome experiences with women without trying anything special. My own experiences as a youth were lukewarm at best (I was that shy nerdy glasses wearing guy hanging around in the library too much) until I decided to apply my full attention to this problem. We all have our different paths through life and if in this respect yours was easier then more power to you.

I am glad you found your true love and I am sorry for you loss. I understand your desire to keep her memory special by not rejoining the dating pool. We only have one life to live and we must sail that ship how we see fit.

Actually you would be suprised the number of women half your age who would date you. I once approached a gorgeous 6 feet tall 19 year old lebanese girl on front of her mother! However during the date I realised we didn't click all that much so I let her go. But then that's me, I have trouble seeing SPs that are that age without feeling like a creepy old man but to each his own

To your last point: Women cannot tell the difference between a pick up artist and a guy who is popular with ladies. Externally, we appear the same. They can laugh at the concept of a guy needing to be taught to approach but once he has learned the skills, she will be seduced just the same