PUA Community: Myth or reality?

[curly]

I get that but it doesn't have to be with the whole focus on women, These are important life skills in general. If you approach it like that, it doesn't seem so manipulative and just becomes natural.

Agree, these are useful life skills. But let's say that relating to the opposite sex is a strong motivation to hone these skills. A motivation that you may not have/need if you work in IT, accounting, library science, in a chemistry lab or something like that!

Conversely, apprentice-PUA also learn that can use life skills they currently possess. However, meeting women with a view to become an option for her is not the same as a business meeting. Beyond the "be sociable" and "be yourself" part, the interaction has to move forward, otherwise you just stay the "good friend".

The mistake we often make as men (and god knows I made it so often!) is to believe that if we want to become her lover, we must become friend with her first. That if we are friends, she will eventually consider us as an option, like in the romantic movies we see on screen. That is deeply wrong, and something you learn by making that mistake so often! Attractive and "good friend" are two different paths to a relationship, they are not sequential and we fall into that trap. It's also much less threatening to a guy lacking self-confidence to try to become friend with a woman he likes rather than trying to become her lover. And their "good female friend" goes having sex with another guy and tell them all about it on Monday morning! Because you're friends, right? Friends don't hide anything from each other, do they? And what hurts you in this, more than the sex, is that you feel so stupid and humiliated when that happens, so stupid of having invested that time and energy and having made the mistake yet again. But you don't know how to get out of that pattern... And that's where the PUA "bullshit" helps you.

It's not all about having sex with her, but sex (or it's possibility) must also be included. Otherwise you're friend-zoned every time and you'll live a monk's life!

I'm curious to hear from others who say they have been part of the PUA community. Have I got this right, or did I understand it all wrong?

 

[curly]

Actually I don't think women should be picked up with rehearsed lines. For one thing I don't think it works lol. For another things have to flow naturally; the rules of attraction and chemistry can't be faked.
I don't have a dog in this hunt and don't know about current PUA culture or whatever it is. I suspect some guys may be getting fed crap by grifting motivational speakers and authors looking to line their pockets...but what do I know.
I only mentioned the late 70s because I think that was the last time many guys wore gold chains with open shirts haha.

Let's say that if you can't fake chemistry, you can certainly do things that will kill it!!! lol!

So if you learn to avoid chemistry killers and actually allow chemistry to happen, at least you're ahead of where you were....

 

[Bbw hunter]

yes yes yes

I like your choice of words.

 

[curly]

I like your choice of words.

When a girl tell you "yes" buddy, you're on the right path!

 

[Fradi]

This is actually a little too much, apprentice PUA, WTF.
The things described are common sense and perhaps parents should teach their children proper manners and how to behave with people whether male or female.
Dress and grooming, fuck nobody has a mirror nowadays or eyes. You can’t spot hairs growing out of your nose and ears and know it is gross and not supposed to show.
How do these people behave or show up at work perhaps they should have a side apprenticeship for that lol.

 

[curly]

This is actually a little too much, apprentice PUA, WTF.
The things described are common sense and perhaps parents should teach their children proper manners and how to behave with people whether male or female.
Dress and grooming, fuck nobody has a mirror nowadays or eyes. You can’t spot hairs growing out of your nose and ears and know it is gross and not supposed to show.
How do these people behave or show up at work perhaps they should have a side apprenticeship for that lol.

The thing is Fradi, they don't show up at work! They all do zoom these days!

 

[TheQuestion]

Reading this thread it makes me think that the whole PUA is looked as something "transformative" for men or give it way too much credit. It seems that mainstream seems to view it this way as well as if men have this "power" that will put men at a great advantage with women and in life.

However, having done PUA for 7 years most of my experiences have been the EXACT opposite. I have been to nightclubs with a bunch of PUA's usually nerdy Asian, Indian and a a few white guys. Most of what they did was approach and get rejected. Maybe a one or two flaky numbers. However, I would say that a fratboy and his friends going out would have "out gamed" most PUA's. Then everyone would go eat at a late night diner and talk about "techniques." The whole PUA is way nerdier than people think and way less effective as well. I knew people who went out every night for a month didn't get laid and this was in Las Vegas!

 

[TheQuestion]

Agree, these are useful life skills. But let's say that relating to the opposite sex is a strong motivation to hone these skills. A motivation that you may not have/need if you work in IT, accounting, library science, in a chemistry lab or something like that!

Conversely, apprentice-PUA also learn that can use life skills they currently possess. However, meeting women with a view to become an option for her is not the same as a business meeting. Beyond the "be sociable" and "be yourself" part, the interaction has to move forward, otherwise you just stay the "good friend".

The mistake we often make as men (and god knows I made it so often!) is to believe that if we want to become her lover, we must become friend with her first. That if we are friends, she will eventually consider us as an option, like in the romantic movies we see on screen. That is deeply wrong, and something you learn by making that mistake so often! Attractive and "good friend" are two different paths to a relationship, they are not sequential and we fall into that trap. It's also much less threatening to a guy lacking self-confidence to try to become friend with a woman he likes rather than trying to become her lover. And their "good female friend" goes having sex with another guy and tell them all about it on Monday morning! Because you're friends, right? Friends don't hide anything from each other, do they? And what hurts you in this, more than the sex, is that you feel so stupid and humiliated when that happens, so stupid of having invested that time and energy and having made the mistake yet again. But you don't know how to get out of that pattern... And that's where the PUA "bullshit" helps you.

It's not all about having sex with her, but sex (or it's possibility) must also be included. Otherwise you're friend-zoned every time and you'll live a monk's life!

I'm curious to hear from others who say they have been part of the PUA community. Have I got this right, or did I understand it all wrong?

I agree with your list above, you seem to have a good understanding of PUA culture.

I think that PUA helps mostly the guys who come from "Hollywood" understanding of the world. Where they watched a lot of movies and assume many things like they are "Losers"
and the women are "Queens." PUA teaches guy they are "the prize."

Some of the PUAs who traveled the world understand how the different cultures work. For instance, the English Speaking countries it works betters to be direct with your intentions from the beginning if she's not interested she'll reject you but you won't waste time.

 

[Anna Bijou]

Apologies for the super long post lol


Super random annecdote. A few years ago, my best friend "I" (RIP) was in his early forties sort took a guy who was in his early twenties"A" under his wing so to speak, and brought him into his huge social network. A was brilliant intellectually and academically but had like zero social awareness and experience and was truly angry at women, the ones he'd known and the frustration of not being able to approach women made him really resentful. He was a stereotypical bitter PUA guy. SO annoying.


When I first started spending time around him, I found him so annoying and just totally boring to talk to. All he talked about was women, she did this to me shes a bitch, poor me, women only like assholes blaah blaah blaaah. To me, there was nothing real or interesting about him because frankly get over it, stop obsessing about it, I just don'r give a fuck - as a woman like 15 years older, whose friends are 95 percent male, I'm fine with guy talk but not that lol Anyway I dreaded having to have one on one conversations with him. He got a bit more mature as he spent time with my friends, started going to the gym and gaining a bit more confidence. He still annoyed the fuck out of me.


Our friend went on a long trip and i was going to housesit. It was supposed to be just me and my dog but somehow A just stayed and never went home so it was the two of us as roommates. Fack. After a period of wanting to throw him in front of a train (shitty social skills makes for a really shitty roommate: he ate all my food and used my bath towel who the fuck does that lol) I don't know what happened (well i do, i flat out told him i didn't want to hear about his PUA crap and complaining about all the women he approached and who rejected him)...and then he got real with me and we became very very good friends. Very good platonic friends, an interesting friendship without sexual tension. I've had several strong platonic friendships with men but this was a first for him. We slept in the same bed lots of times and could have hooked up but I think we both felt that it made more sense to just skip it. There was no sexual tension so it was really easy to keep it platonic.

A lot of men never bother to develop friendships with women that are not based on obtaining sexual or romantic reward. That is the only context in which they care to invest time or the only way they can relate to women. That is where the big drama (absurdly) referred to as being friendzoned is about. Please explain to me why it would be such an insult and injustice to be valued enough to want to develop a friendship? It's crazy.


Yes, we have all been in a situation where we wanted a romantic or sexual relationship with someone who did not reciprocate. It sucks, but it's life. You don't torture yourself and move on. But in general, most people you meet are not actually going to become romantic partners. If you feel like you are perpetually friendzoned then your problem is expectations and basically assuming that any woman you interact with is supposed to have feelings for you. If she doesn't, you've failed. Friendship is failure.


The problem with feeling repeatedly friendzoned is in your own head, your perspective. The overwhelming majority of people of the other gender you will meet are not going to result in a romantic match. That's a fact of life. Either you get more selective about who you expect to hit it off with or you learn that friendship is not a punishment or an insult to your ego.


But that is something many men will never realize. It's a shame but it's on you. Not personally but it's a result of your narrow perspective on the different types of dynamics possible in interactions with women. It is not an insult to be friend-zoned, it is an opportunity to experiment a different kind of friendship that you are used to with men. I dislike the whole concept of friendzoning. I have many long lasting platonic friendships with men and I'm so glad I do.


Anyway, I also realized that we are actually wired very differently.
He was juicing for his eventually too-muscly arms and chest and i guess he would cycle between different hormones. I can tell you that he didn't have to say when he was on testosterone, I knew it because i couldn't stand him. Obsessed and aggressively trying to pick up all day wherever he went and non stop talking about it. He was so different than when not taking extra testosterone. I was really shocked at how much it affected him. I really realized how much hormones could change and shape our behaviors and thoughts. Seeing the extremes was an eye opener.

I don't really have a point other than PUA is always going to be weird for me because I don't have that testosterone to be able to truly understand. My brain just doesn't work that way.


Does this even make sense?



btw he got a girlfriend, constantly complained that she was a bitch to him (she was) and cheated on her non stop.



yay pua lol

 

[curly]

Thanks a lot for sharing with us Anna. And thanks for your long post. I understand a little better your perspective.

Being friendzoned is not an insult, you are right. It's actually a compliment. I get that completely, and have many very good female friendships that have lasted decades and they are very dear to me.

However, wanting a sexual life, and physical affection, is human. Being attracted physically is also normal, we would not be here if all of our parents were only friends.... Sexual instinct is a something very strong and powerful inside each of us.

Like your friend A, some men are illiterate when it comes to flirting. In my case, I grew up in a male environment, no sisters, 3 brothers, all-males high school, boys summer camps. When I say illiterate I don't mean they are all socially awkward. I mean they don't know how to signal a woman that they desire her. It does not mean that these guys cannot be good company or that they want sex all the time. But they are illiterate, they don't know how it happens, they don't know what else to do other than becoming friends. They go on a date like they go out with the "boys"! And they keep making the same mistake, over and over again. They fear being rejected, and they are all the time. You know the old "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"? Well you feel Venus is a very strange place and you've never been there! lol!

You have no idea, Anna, the depth of the sadness that is lived by these men. They feel defective, faulty, belittled. You must meet some of them in your work. Some of them become "incel", angry at women. Other become vulnerable to female abusers (yes, they exist, believe me, been there done that!....). Some of them become obsessed. None of these reactions are healthy, useful or productive, but they don't know what else to do. This is where I believe PUA culture, the one I describe above, can be useful, whether or not you call this common sense or basic human skills. Not the stupid shit you see in movies, I'm talking about the self-improvement work. Because yes, it starts from yourself. And for those engaged seriously on that path, it's a long learning journey. Now, you wished your friend A did that work on himself, don't you?

Women generally believe this is natural, that you just be yourself and you seduce. It is not like that, I assure you. There is a process, and there is fierce competition amongst men. Women don't see this process because most of the time they don't lead it, the male does. They go with the flow and decide whether they are going to accept the advances or not. But the advances themselves are seldom initiated or lead by women. And there are advances that will get you rejected every time (like the "pick up line" thing) and those that will allow you to at least get to know her. That's nature, nothing wrong with this, we're hardwired like this. But if as a male you are not aware of how it works, you end up trying and failing all the time. It's like looking at a train full of people leaving for a happy place, and you stay alone at the station (or with a few other males! lol!).

Now, that being said, some guys are hopeless. Even if you give them proper tools, they insist in trying out a recipe, in thinking there must be a trick, a shortcut. They fail and they piss off girls. They call themselves PUA, but they are far from it.... So if this is the kind of Pick Up Artistry you've met, I can appreciate how you feel about them! Emotional intelligence is something that you can develop with time. But if you don't try hard, if you believe there is a trick, you won't develop nothing....

 

[curly]

And I just want to add Anna, we have different opinions, but we are having a discussion. We have different points of view, but we argue without insulting or calling each other names.

I appreciate that a lot from you, thank you.

 

[Fradi]

So most of these PUA are nerdy asians and Indians and it takes more than 7 years to finish your apprenticeship?
I have a suggestion for them go see a gorgeous SP instead perhaps gradually she will teach you to have the balls to approach a woman and not feel intimidated, in the mean time you are getting the best possible sex which most of these civilian women that you are drooling over will never come close to.

In my time the PUA usually looked like Italian wise guy wannabes that actually did attract a certain slutty kind of equivalent that I wouldn’t want to be around.
The thing most guys who have a hard time with women don’t understand is that women get lonely also and yes even horny and they are also looking for someone to spend time with and to appreciate them for who they are.
Just because a woman looks amazing it doesn’t mean you don’t have a chance with her, the only time you have zero chance is if you don’t try. Yeah sometimes or even often you get rejected, so what.
I always looked at it that I was starting off with a 50% accomplishment, I was already all for it, now I only needed to convince her.
I thought that PUA stuff died out a long time ago and I believe most women today would laugh at it.

 

[Anna Bijou]

And I just want to add Maya, we have different opinions, but we are having a discussion. We have different points of view, but we argue without insulting or calling each other names.

I appreciate that a lot from you, thank you.

I'm not sure if you have someone named maya on your mind but I'm Anna. lol

However I think you may have just renamed me. I was considering changing, lol

Also very much appreciate the discussion.



Have you ever read this book? It's not new but it was really interesting.. Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships

 

[curly]

Lol! Sorry Anna!

 

[Blackjackmac]

So most of these PUA are nerdy asians and Indians and it takes more than 7 years to finish your apprenticeship?
I have a suggestion for them go see a gorgeous SP instead perhaps gradually she will teach you to have the balls to approach a woman and not feel intimidated, in the mean time you are getting the best possible sex which most of these civilian women that you are drooling over will never come close to.

Just like any activity (lifting, yoga, home improvement) there are those of us who never seem to be able to get any better than a mere beginner and flock from guru to guru in the hopes of mastering their chosen activity. Also alot of these PUA gurus are legit scammers getting their 'apprentices' tp pay upwards of 3000$ for a weekend of instructions from which they get almost no benefit.

I will agree that hobbying allows you to get desensitized to the power of beautiful women, However I disagree with your statement that one gets better sex from an SP than a 'civilian' woman. When a woman is truly into you, there is nothing that an SP can do to live up to that experience, This is not meant as a offense to SPs in anyway but seeing an SP is essentially playing the game on ''Easy mode''

 

[curly]

Have you ever read this book? It's not new but it was really interesting.. Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships

Never. What are the main messages?

 

[Anna Bijou]

seeing an SP is essentially playing the game on ''Easy mode''

Actually I think seeing an sp is avoiding the game completely.

That is one of the things that attracted me the most about this line of work.

Hooking up is often really not worthwhile because it comes with the games. I was never and am still not really interested in hooking up. FWB can work but hooking up has always left me feeling like it wasn't worth it.

With paid sex, there terms are clear, there is no need to play games. It makes it so much more fun and uncomplicated. I feel like there is no power struggle.

Someone once asked me what I liked about escorting and one of the reasons I gave was that I felt in control. He laughed and said he also felt that way. I feel like it's a much better feeling without the power struggle and the games of hookups.

 

[Blackjackmac]

So what are you talking about when you talk about PUA community?

So, this link you shared is very interesting because while it does share legitimate concerns, I feel they stem from looking at things with a preconceived notion of what Pick up is and then understanding terms through that lens.

The Author goes over several concepts which he feels are Toxic and I hope to demonstrate here that they are not toxic at all when viewed correctly.

Make the HO say no

The author appears to read this as pestering a woman until she either agrees to have an interaction with you or forcefully says NO! But thats not reading the concept right at all.

This is meant to address the fact that most women when first approach will instinctively respond negatively. This is empirically true 90% plus of the time. Several theories are out there to explain this: the very real fear of meeting a psycho pervert is one for example, an instinctual way of testing the resolve of a potential mate is another. Whatever the reason the phenomenon is quite real.

So the idea behind this concept is not to leave the game until its truly game over. While it may seem to encourage pushy behavior a proper reading will see that what you want to apply here is a little bit of persistence.

Anecdote: I stopped a woman in a dowtown mall once and I could tell she was amused by my approach but she said she was married.

I responded with: ''I can be discreet''.

Well it turns out she was on a business trip away from her husband and that slight bit of persistence opened the door for a week bliss

As you can see, not pushy and rapey just persistent.

Gameification of women

The author believes (like a lot of people) that putting a rating to a woman is reprehensible.

First the concept wasn't invented by PUAs, hobbists have used ever since message boards were invented. There is no good way of comparing two women's looks but just because that scale is used, do you really think it means we are dehumanizing them? Reducing their value to a mere number? No Just like in Hobbying I can have a fantastic time with you but when i write the review I have to give hard numbers. Maybe it is a bit nerdy but dehumanizing?

Also, the difficulty rating associated with the number is a real thing. Of course it's possible to meet a 5 who has a huge social circle and thinks she's the bees knees and too good for you and it is also possible to meet a 9 that is lonely, new to the city or just a bit nerdy like us. However these are exceptions. The hotter the girl, the more her social life is busy. The more her phone is buzzing all day with messages from dozens of guys inviting her to partys, boat rides, etc etc.

Another aspect is the intimidation ability that a woman's looks gives her. A gorgeous woman has the ability to put a man in his place with a single withering glance. Chatting up a 6 and chatting up a 9 might seem the same but the inner struggle is very very different.

As I mentioned in another post, hobbying does allow one to get better at dealing with cute girls. Remember for us Nerds back in highschool even if you would have started up a conversation with us we would have answered in monosyllabic nonsense

ASD, LMR and BR

All of these three concepts are linked together (although the author doesn't address buyer's remorse at all) and he seems to think they are the most toxic of ideas actually encouraging rape. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Choosing the right mate is paramount for a woman. Much less so than for a man. Most women find the idea of hooking up with a man who doesnt deserve it repugnant. Actually that explains why women hate the idea of Pick up because they would of course prefer to meet and have sex with a guy who is naturally deserving of her affections. Women will often berate themselves for having had drunken hookup or for once again having sex with that guy that has commitement issues.

As a PUA you will encounter resistance at each of the steps of the game of seduction. At each resistance you must first determine if the resistance is real (in which case you stop all escalation and leave her alone) of if it is her having doubts and second thoughts. The worst thing a guy can do in this situation is say: ''Hey I thought we had a good time, whats wrong i'm not good enough for you?'' or some other nonsense. My go to is the freeze out (which the author also seems to take issue with) in which case I will stop my advances cold and propose a movie or a board game or just talking. The idea is to give her time to appreciate me and make her see I'm not a sex-starved desperate chode. If she really was into me this whole time it will be a momentary break until she jumps me. In all cases, I have zero interest in bedding a woman who doesn't want me. I find the idea of tricking a woman into bed without her full enthusiastic consent to be abhorent and its actually one of the reasons why I very rarely hobby anymore

 

[Blackjackmac]

Actually I think seeing an sp is avoiding the game completely.

That is one of the things that attracted me the most about this line of work.

Hooking up is often really not worthwhile because it comes with the games. I was never and am still not really interested in hooking up. FWB can work but hooking up has always left me feeling like it wasn't worth it.

With paid sex, there terms are clear, there is no need to play games. It makes it so much more fun and uncomplicated. I feel like there is no power struggle.

Someone once asked me what I liked about escorting and one of the reasons I gave was that I felt in control. He laughed and said he also felt that way. I feel like it's a much better feeling without the power struggle and the games of hookups.

I agree with you about hookups. It's never worth it because there is no way you can really get to know a sexual partner the first time. When you have played your cards right and had sex once in a way that she doesn't get Buyer's remorse, this is only the beginning and the sex just gets better from there. I aim for FWB always. Maybe thats why I am less worried about LMR and am willing to let her come to me in her own time

As for seeing SPs I am ambivalent these days. I have had great experiences but most were to me as empty as how you feel hooking up did. I tend to leave the encounters kinda regretting on the majority of them and even more so. I have a keen sense of when a woman is into me and doing it with someone who isn't always leaves me hollow no matter what DFK, BBBJTCIM she did.

But, to each his own!

 

[Anna Bijou]

The rating system is such a male thing, I can't even begin to relate to. Lol

I can't speak for all women but I'm pretty sure I can't be alone in just finding that perspective so perplexing. Rating system? It is a male thing. Lol and like, it's a real system. A guy says a 7 and the other guy knows exactly what that means lol

BTW I'm not laughing or putting anything down, I've just always loved being like a fly on the wall and hearing guy talk in action. I'm sure men feel the same about girl talk.