Rejection of the proposed amendments to the Charter of the French language (Bill 14)

[Techman]

The best time to teach a child a second, or third, or fourth language is to start before they even begin school. Children learn languages much easier when they start as young as possible. If you wait until a person has reached high school age to begin learning, things will be much more difficult for the student. There's not one valid reason not to start teaching a second language as soon as possible. This applies to any language. Why make things more difficult than they should be? Shouldn't Francophone Quebecois children be given every possible advantage to be successful in the business world? Why should they be held back and punished because of the prejudices of their parents and political leaders?

http://www.ivillage.com/what-best-age-introduce-new-language/6-n-138322
http://www.parents.com/toddlers-preschoolers/development/language/teaching-second-language/
http://esl.fis.edu/teachers/support/faq2.htm

And unless you intend to spend your entire life living and working in Quebec, the best language to learn is the international language of business - English. Francophones who refuse to teach English to their children, or fight against it being taught too early in school, when they are most able to learn a second language, are doing nothing but limiting their children's future ability to be mobile in the business world. Only in Quebec is learning another language considered to be a bad thing, especially if it happens to be English. It's time to move into the 21st Century and leave old prejudices where they belong, in the distant past.

I rather for exemple would love to see more language classes in high schools, but for different languages, instead of just focussing on English.

Great idea! You complain about being surrounded by English so let's teach our children how to speak any language but English. Why should we give them the chance to expand their horizons and the ability to work anywhere in North America? Your prejudice is showing.

 

[Max15411]

Just to back Techman's point. I can easily count hundreds of people, including myself, my sisters, my kids, my wife, friends, cousins, and other schoolmates who learned to speak 3 different languages by the time we were 6. Add reading and writing by 8-9 years old.

All the arguments that we heard yesterday or any other time that said learning languages later in life is as easy as learning them early is MAROIS SHIT! No offense intended to any bulls.

 

[Edouard]

C'est sérieux là; c'est ici qu'on doit pleurer sur le sort des Anglos, qui forment seulement 98% de la population en Amérique du nord? D'accord, je vais voir par quel oeil je vais commencer à verser une larme. Pile, le droit; face, le gauche

 

[james t kirk]

Quebec separatist governments are GREAT for Ontario and Toronto in particular.

The PQ bigotry, racism, discrimination and all round bullshit only serves to drive more and more people down the 401 to Toronto. Montreal has never even recovered to it's pre 1976 population. Before 76 Montreal was THEE City in Canada. But thanks to the BS, hundreds of thousands of mainly Montrealers picked up and moved to Toronto. They brought with them their money, their skills, their drive, their education. In Toronto they found one the most welcoming cities in the world. Speak French? No Problem. Want to put a sign up in whatever language you want? No problem. Want to educate your kid in French? We encourage it. Bilingualism is a great thing. Toronto doesn't care what language you want to work in, or what language you want to post a sign in. All we care about is that you work and pay your taxes and get along with everyone.

Toronto has now screamed past Montreal like it (Montreal) was standing still. Toronto just recently passed Chicago in fact in total population and should even over take Los Angeles in the next century. There are more skyscrapers now in Toronto than any other city in North America other than NYC (at 3 times the population). Montreal? Montreal has become a backwater. (Sorry guys, it's true.) Montreal is set to become Canada's third city as even Vancouver passes it. All thanks to discrimination, racism, and petty bigotry from the PQ'ists.


There are currently 132 highrise buildings under construction in Toronto, according to the figures. Mexico City ranks a distant second with 88 and New York City is in third with 86. The field drops off dramatically after that: fourth-ranking Chicago is building 17 highrises, while Miami rounds out the top five with 16.

http://www.thestar.com/life/homes/2011/10/05/highrises_were_tops_on_the_continent.html

Montreal didn't even get mentioned.

Why?

Because descrimination is driving away investment.

 

[Merlot]

You talk about "over-the-top nonsense views" but happily ignore the over the top nonsense LAWS that exist against the English language.

Pffffssssst,

The above is a bold-faced lie. Once again you know very well that in previous threads I've been adamant that any regulation or law should not abuse the rights of any segment of society. Either you're doing this purposely, or you are so emotional you've forgotten all my past posts on the issue. I've also said in previous threads Marois is an extremist and a bit nuts. I've rejected her and her extreme policies. If that were not enough, there's this from post #9 regarding the issue of this thread:

It looks like a poorly written bill, kept vague in just how and what powers would be used and what the limits would be. That alone is enough to reject it if I was a legal voter. If it's read with one meaning it seems fine, with another meaning it seems it could be used in a very dictatorial way. I'd reject it regardless of favoring the goal to protect and enhance the French language.



Merlot

I've rejected the bill in absolute terms EXACTLY because it creates opportunities for enormous abuse, making your claim above total nonsense ...ENCORE MONSIEUR!!!. Did you miss post #9, or did you see it and just decide to ignore it so you could indulge your emotional reaction to "vive les Francais" in post #25??? Your problem is you've got an attitude like an NRA member where anything being proposed is considered an intrusion or an abuse of rights, no matter if it's very simple and logical or extremely abusive. You're so over-wrought on this subject you seem to act like anyone posting the slightest sympathy for the French in Quebec is an enemy.

It's not rational to have such a visceral reaction to anything you just don't like, especially when it's just a simple generic three-word slogan, and it shows you aren't even trying to understand or pay attention to what's being written instead of spewing on impulse.

vraiment,

Merlot

BTW - I hope the few mots de Francais I threw in don't trouble you too much.

 

[james t kirk]

I rather for exemple would love to see more language classes in high schools, but for different languages, instead of just focussing on english.

Here's a novel thought......

Why don't you give people freedom to choose what THEY want to do.

 

[james t kirk]

One last thought.......

If say Dalton McGuinty, or Kathleen Wyne had campaigned on an anti French platform or English only platform (like Marois and her ilk campaign on an anti-English platform), they would have lasted about 2 seconds before their own party got out the cane and dragged them off stage by the neck for being a piece of shit racist.

But in Quebec you elect them.

Sad but true.

 

[Nath89]

J'aborde dans le meme sens que le commentaire laisse avant moi c'est-a-dire que je ne pense pas que la langue soit une priorite pour la majorite des quebecois qu'ils soient de souche ou d'adoption.Faut-il proteger la langue francaise au quebec ? Oui bien sur mais je pense qu'il faudrait tout d'abord deja mieux l'enseigner au lieu de faire la police dans les entreprises ou d'exiger que des compagnies changent leurs noms.

 

[rewindedforward]

You can legislate against bilingualism programs, English store signs, bilingual bylaws; you can make French the only language of communication between the National Assembly and its people; you can remove all traces of the 'enemy' language all you want, it will never change this glaring fact: you can't even teach your language to your own children - and what goes on in Westmount has nothing to do with that.

After eleven years of French education, you think it's normal that almost a quarter of Cegep students fail their final French exam? You know, the one they need to go to university to have access to all those jobs that require them - because we've legislated it that way, and rightly so - to master French? Guess how many students failed when the test was the one that gave them access to their teaching licence? Yes, that's right, 71% of this province's future teachers didn't get the passing grade when it was first instated in 2009.

And here we are debating words on restaurant menus, that STM-ticket-seller-who-told-me-to-shove-my-English, "les anglos nous assimilent!", the impeding Apocalypse that I keep reading about from anglo folks in the CTV comment section of whatever-was-controversial-about-the-anglo-franco-thing-today...

It's like geez people, can we calm down and take a look at the situation? First of all, the history of Supreme Court rulings tells us that Quebec ultimately respects the Charter. Whatever law becomes Bill 14, I'm sure (unless our policy-makers like the idea of litigating this for the next 15 years), it will respect the Charter too. Second of all, what are we defending again? Oh, that's right: the preservation of the French language. Can we do that *while* preserving what is also traditional to Quebec culture: an integrated anglophone community? I think so. Start by looking at your education system.

RF

 

[Halloween Mike]

Tech : Most people WILL spend they life working in quebec. I know some of you guys are rich business man that either come from the US or elsewhere and make trip to quebec for various reasons including escorts, but the MAJORITY of people born in quebec will remain in quebec and pretty much just do travel trips elsewhere for fun... Is it important to have a base in other language if you travel? Yeah of course... dosen't mean we need to master the language tough. And again... touristic places usually are very acomodating when it comes to serving clients in there language. I think teaching kids too young cause identity crysis. For exemple one of my friend, he is french speaking and all, yet when i hear his little bothers talking in the back (in the xbox mic) they always talk in english, yet he answer them in french and they understand. So now because they learn it young they are using it more than the french... They are in Gatineau so close to ontario but still... Would i be my friend i would say "parle moi en francais, on est au quebec icitte".

James : LOL what does building and such have to do in this.. if there something i am NOT for fulling a city til its overcharge. There is enough people already in montreal, enough traffic, enough crazy stuff going on... I couldn't care less toronto get bigger, or welcome everybody... Quantity dosen't equal Quality, and thats why i will always prefer small towns to the big city for living.... For all i care, if the english speakers dosen't like the current quebec, the laws such, your free to live, and as you say in english, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

And let people choose what they want? Lol ok then i would had never do math, english and even french in high school... All my classes would had been art, physical education and other small fun classes. In high school you can't let them choose. When there adult then they can choose what they want. But in high school i think teaching spanish would be a good thing. Would i have more money i would take class myself now.

And on your last taugh, too bad for you if you see the french protection politics as racism or whatever. But just to say i didn't vote for Marois, as she was pro red square and i despise the movement, i voted for Option National, even if i knew the chance to win where 0. But in any case on what she does NOW for this particular bill, i aprove yes. And i don't think its racist or whatever. Its just protecting our heritage.

Rewinded : To speak french you don't have to write it perfectly. And i never said i was for the big complicated french some people who likes to "peter plus haut que le trou" do sometimes. I speak quebec french, thats includes tabarnak, criss, osti and all the other traditional words. Even anglicism are ok for me, as english also use french words anyway(rendez-vous for exemple) , as long as its french in substance, its fine with me. English is so easy overall and so simple, people that where born and raise in it HAVE to pass it without problem... French sometimes is overly complicated for nothing especially on the writing, and i am also in favor to simple it and all. So yes i want to protect french, but the french we speak, us the normal people, not the overly complicated for nothing french they want to teach in school that NOBODY exept maybe so President of a compagny use, not even people from france.If there something, there french is even more "butchered" as some would say, than ours. I was watching a french movie yesterday and in part i had to rewind to understand...

Can we do that *while* preserving what is also traditional to Quebec culture: an integrated anglophone community?

Considering it was mainly forced on us, and they oppressed us for so many years before some great people rised to fight against it(name like Maurice Richard for exemple) , i couldn't care less to preserve it...

Lets just say that... The day the world will loose its frontier and be ONE big country, i will be more willing to welcome anything. Until then... i rather see the arabs remain in there country with there "horrible" laws and barbaric ways, the mexican can keep there drug cartel and violence there too, and the states can keep there street gangs, there rights to wield a firearm and its over populated country.

Here in quebec i think its simply the best place to live, very few crimes, quiet, not too much people, normal laws, almost no risk of natural disaster(tornado, eartquake) our only bad points is the climat that change too much and scrap our roads... lol I don't hate winter, actually i like it, but the unfreezing cause major damage to roads sadly. But exept that... we are blessed on all points.

 

[rewindedforward]

Rewinded : To speak french you don't have to write it perfectly. And i never said i was for the big complicated french some people who likes to "peter plus haut que le trou" do sometimes. I speak quebec french, thats includes tabarnak, criss, osti and all the other traditional words.

I speak "Quebec french" too, but if the ultimate goal is making French the only language of communication in all institutions and communities across Quebec, I hope you also have a plan for how the next generation's going to find employment. Statistics show our kids don't have the one essential thing they need to have access to higher-paying jobs... Where does that put us? Right back where we were before we passed Bill 101.

Even anglicism are ok for me, as english also use french words anyway(rendez-vous for exemple) , as long as its french in substance, its fine with me. English is so easy overall and so simple, people that where born and raise in it HAVE to pass it without problem...

Actually, American kids are failing en masse too. There must be something in the air Thing is, failing your French exam here effectively means barring yourself from aspiring to higher. You fail, you just don't get your diploma - your world of opportunity just gets reduced to whatever job doesn't require one.

French sometimes is overly complicated for nothing especially on the writing,

I agree. I disagree that that's a reason to require so little of our kids. To not be outraged that even our teachers fail the test. To not see those numbers and ask ourselves what we're doing wrong before blaming outside forces. I mean, seriously. How do you expect to pass your language on - isn't that what's at stake here? - if you can't teach it?

and i am also in favor to simple it and all. So yes i want to protect french, but the french we speak, us the normal people, not the overly complicated for nothing french they want to teach in school that NOBODY exept maybe so President of a compagny use, not even people from france.

C'est tellement faux ce que tu dis. La maîtrise du français est essentielle pour trouver un job qui paye le moindrement plus de 40 000$ au Québec.

Considering it was mainly forced on us, and they oppressed us for so many years before some great people rised to fight against it(name like Maurice Richard for exemple) , i couldn't care less to preserve it... [

Considering : let's get over it.

Lets just say that... The day the world will loose its frontier and be ONE big country, i will be more willing to welcome anything. Until then... i rather see the arabs remain in there country with there "horrible" laws and barbaric ways, the mexican can keep there drug cartel and violence there too, and the states can keep there street gangs, there rights to wield a firearm and its over populated country.

La paille vs. la poutre.

Here in quebec i think its simply the best place to live, very few crimes, quiet, not too much people, normal laws, almost no risk of natural disaster(tornado, eartquake) our only bad points is the climat that change too much and scrap our roads... lol I don't hate winter, actually i like it, but the unfreezing cause major damage to roads sadly. But exept that... we are blessed on all points.

Blessed the falling viaducts :amen:

RF

 

[Sol Tee Nutz]

This is coming from an Albertan. First Quebec is a great province. As for the language it is too strict and with people like Marios running Quebec she wants only Quebeckers but she will tolerate french speaking non-Quebeckers living here. Instead of trying to pass this bill I would like to see her do something to help the economy, never going to happen with her because she does not know what to do. Plan Nord would help. I tried to learn french but do not have the accent and many times I get the pronunciation so close but all I hear back is " Que " what if I am spelling it right, I know some people understand what I am saying but will not respond except for Que.... As for the bill there should be no law requiring someone to speak a certain language or for a sign to be predominant in a certain language, if you do not want to shop there do not go in, very simple.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

As an American living in Montreal, I see the effects of the language laws on a daily basis, though, as I’m retired, I’m personally not much affected by them. To me the policies in effect under the Charter of the French Language fall into three categories: 1) those statutes which effectively preserve and protect the French culture and heritage in Quebec, 2) those statutes which are frivolous and serve no purpose other than to alienate and inflame Quebec’s minorities, both anglphone and allophone and 3) those statutes which are self-defeating and further promote the provincialism of the French majority.

What I find disturbing is that here on merb, a place where people from near and far come to exalt the wonderful women of French heritage whose affection and pleasure we travel long distances and pay substantial sums to enjoy, there is no acknowledgement whatsoever of our duty to preserve the heritage of this province.

I want to offer here a modest proposal. An addendum to merb’s rules, if I may. Once this rule is set in place all posts written in English must be posted in a Size 1 or 2 font. Posts written in French shall be posted in fonts 3 or larger. Furthermore, no one shall shall attempt to circumvent the new language rule by posting in English in a bold font.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The problem is that in quebec its so poor and the economy is such a huge pile of shit that many young girls become escorts. i.e, you put quebec's shit economy anywhere else, and you will have good looking young girls working as escorts for minimum wage rates also

There are many, many places in the USA, my Quebec-hating friend, with worse economies and higher unemployment than Quebec. I don't see a whole lot of sex workers in these places. Any other misinformation you'd care to share with us?

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

My Quebec always included the English culture/language. So, no I don't like to see Quebec loosing its true heritage and history.

I understand what you're saying, nutz. In South Africa, there are some people who miss apartheid.

 

[Techman]

And here in Quebec they're trying to create their own apartheid based on language instead of skin colour.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

And here in Quebec they're trying to create their own apartheid based on language instead of skin colour.

Actually, Techman, you have it quite backward. Apartheid was the majority living under the oppressive yoke of the minority, much like, for example, in Quebec, prior to 1970.

 

[Techman]

Rumples, people may try what they wish in their attempt to distort history, but there were never any laws against the French language here in Quebec. French was never banned from signs or forced to be half the size of English. There were no language police enforcing English over French. If anyone was oppressing the people of Quebec, it was the Catholic Church. If anyone is oppressing the French population of Quebec today, it is their own political leaders by taking away their freedom of education in the language of their choice. It is the politicians by continuing this bullshit claim of the French language being in danger to prevent them from opening their eyes to the world.

In the past, the church wanted the women to be kept in the home and pregnant, now it's the politicians wanting to keep everyone unilingual and ignorant.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Techman, please don't hold your breath waiting for me to defend the Catholic church.

While I don't have the personal history in Quebec that you do and, of course, I'm not nearly as old as you, but I do have on good authority, from long time locals mostly of the Hebrew persuasion, that it was more than just the church. I've been told that in the not too distant past a French person couldn't get service in a downtown department store if they didn't speak English and even then, if spoken with a French accent, they were treated as second class.

You'll note in my post above "3) those statutes which are self-defeating and further promote the provincialism of the French majority." I have Anglo friends who send their kids to French schools so they'll grow up bilingual; the French don't have the same option, which seems to me to be discrimination aimed at the French majority by the French powers-that-be.

All of that said, much of the current situation falls under the heading of "what goes around, comes around." The English have made their bed and they don't seem to be enjoying lying in it.

 

[Techman]

If by 'not too distant past' you mean 5 or 6 decades ago, well even then the so called fat lady at Eaton's who wouldn't serve French people is more of a fable than anything based in truth. We aren't in the 50s or the 60s anymore, this is the second decade of the 21st century. Women have the vote and blacks don't have to ride in the back of the bus. You would think that people would be intelligent enough by now to learn from the past instead of using it as an excuse to oppress others. It's well past time that everyone stood up for themselves and said enough is enough. Enough of catering to a small group of xenophobes who insist of living in the past, enough of discrimination. Enough of living in a place where bilingualism is seen as a bad thing instead of as the great advantage it truly is.

Anyone who wants to ensure the survival of their culture and language should find ways to promote it that do not step on the rights of anyone else. They should teach it to their children at home. They should take responsibility for it and not depend on laws that discriminate against others. But that takes strength of character and actual belief in your culture. Both of which are sorely lacking in a society that expects the government to do everything for them.

If a culture requires discriminatory laws to survive, if it cannot survive on it's own merits, then it does deserve to survive.