Self-esteem, and The Game

[Regular Guy]

All the girls at xxxtase were either very friendly (same at devilish when I "moonlighted" )or they listen to their ipod's. You guys are not just fucksticks, believe it or not we remember the experiences, good or bad, we use the money to live. Your our bread and butter in some cases and a night of good experiences can affect our emotions as can a night of bad experiences.

Your experiences seem to be quite a bit different than what I have heard elsewhere. Where I took exception was the comment at the beginning of this thread where an escort painted a rather negative picture of the clients at a GT within earshot of the initiator of this thread. Then to top it all off, to be told that in the van and amongst themselves the younger sp's consider many of their clients to be "pathetic old farts". I suppose like Ziggy I should consider it a non issue and simply maintain a prudent distance. I suppose that would be the pragmatic way to approach it all. Still I feel that such attitudes seeping into the collective psyche of the sp's can't possibly serve anyone well. And you have to admit that it is somewhat insulting, condescending and demeaning. I have met a number of the guys at GT's and they are a pretty good bunch. If what Karma is saying is true and I am not going to call her a liar then some of those younger sp's may need a major attitude adjustment. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[La Femme]

May I remind you guys of the book "Putain" by Nelly Arcan?

What she writes about is sometimes pretty close to the version Helene gave us...

I think it's safe to assume that what Helene described really do exist. In what proportion? That, we don't know.

 

[Regular Guy]

Thanks for adding a ray of sunshine

All the girls at xxxtase were either very friendly (same at devilish when I "moonlighted" )or they listen to their ipod's. You guys are not just fucksticks, believe it or not we remember the experiences, good or bad, we use the money to live. Your our bread and butter in some cases and a night of good experiences can affect our emotions as can a night of bad experiences.

By the way. Just to add my comment to Ziggys, you just made a whole bunch of friends here Do you think you could give workshops to some of the other sp's?

 

[z/m(Ret)]

May I remind you guys of the book "Putain" by Nelly Arcan?

What she writes about is sometimes pretty close to the version Helene gave us...

I think it's safe to assume that what Helene described really do exist. In what proportion? That, we don't know.

No doubt it exists and one doesn't need to be in the car with them to figure this one out. Take a bunch of 18-20 y/o - boys, girls, regardless - in any social context, not specifically escorting, and that's what you get.

Goes to show once more that a small segment of a society tends to reflect the society itself.

 

[Catalina Rose]

I say Helene was brave to post her experiences because we have all experienced negative factors in our life, but we can either focus on the negative or the positive. I choose to focus on the positive. As for the men that are considered"old farts" those are the ones I cherish the most, they appreciate their time with me, they have life experience and lots to share.... I have learned so much through my clients, my bread and butter. I respect them because they have helped me pay for my apartment, school, food, wireless internet and the ones that have treated me badly I choose to forget, they don't deserve a place in my memory. We have been given the gift to live... so why not live life to the fullest?

 

[z/m(Ret)]

$200 in minutes...

I don't see where I specifically referred to myself. In any case, some civil law attorney in Montreal charge up to $300.00 per hour. Say they clear $200, that's $200 in 60 minutes. 60 minutes are - well - "minutes"
Do the maths! Whoever books 25 to 30 escorts per year x $500-$1000 on average per booking (I know quite a few and I've done it myself) is not exactly earning minimum wage.

o.k what does he do for a living

I'm an indy escort charging $550 for 2 hours.

Still seems a bit harsh to me.

It sure seems that way given than you quoted me incompletely.


Back to the topic.

 

[Catalina Rose]

lol... yeah but you have to take into consideration that not all indys work all the time and although it pays well it isn't a career that will last forever. If I was better at math, I would have tried to get into med school... now thats a good job. Back to self esteem and the game, Does seeing escorts raise your self esteem? I do not see how it could lower a mans self esteem.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

lol... yeah but you have to take into consideration that not all indys work all the time and although it pays well it isn't a career that will last forever. If I was better at math, I would have tried to get into med school... now thats a good job. Back to self esteem and the game, Does seeing escorts raise your self esteem? I do not see how it could lower a mans self esteem.

I've already passed the age of dealing with self-esteem. Seriously, I don't think that resorting to SP's had an impact, negative or positive, on my self-esteem but that's just me.

 

[Regular Guy]

The slippery slope

Back to self esteem and the game, Does seeing escorts raise your self esteem? I do not see how it could lower a mans self esteem.

Seems this is a slippery slope. Let's get back to basics here before we are into it again. Seeing escorts may raise one's self esteem and it may even serve a good and constructive purpose as SCR has pointed out. But in the end the raised self esteem is the same as the sex, both bought and paid for. True self esteem is earned and comes with a genuine liaison with another who has accepted you for who you are. A sense of self esteem gained from meeting with an escort has no legs. It has all the depth of the fast seduction master who wows the pretty and naive young nurse out with her friends at a bar. You have to get out of bed sometime.
I did not take exception to the pleasurable experience with its illusion of conquest and resulting pseudo sense of self esteem, all rooted in fantasy. That was never my point anyway. My point has always been to accept it for what it is and appreciate it for just that reason. It doesn't mean that the two people involved can't share an appreciation for each other commensurate with what each brings to the encounter. If the chemistry is difficult then look for the inner person. If either is a jerk then nothing breeds nothing. It's not a perfect world. What I took and still take exception to is the mean spirited sentiments I read expressed about a certain class of client in general. As for comments repeated second hand by a client: well we could have done without those. But coming from an sp I found them disappointing and the source of my dismay. The true sp, in my mind knows and appreciates her role and has developed an outlook on what she does that will allow her to accept it. She has a positive but realistic attitude towards her clients. She realizes that such an approach is the key to her own mental health. I don't see how anyone could last doing this without it. And it is also the reason that I feel that every client better be damn nice to them in the interests of all of us, sp's and clients alike.
And why my slippery slope comment? Sentiments like the little goddess complex and making demeaning comments, in the light of what I said above, is just plain destructive. And human nature being what it is and the nature of this business being what it is, it is all to easy to slip into that mindset. So this isn't a pissing contest as to which has more value, the cash or the product. When we get caught up in that then we all lose. And that's my two cents worth

 

[La Femme]

No doubt it exists and one doesn't need to be in the car with them to figure this one out. Take a bunch of 18-20 y/o - boys, girls, regardless - in any social context, not specifically escorting, and that's what you get.

Goes to show once more that a small segment of a society tends to reflect the society itself.

I wasn't necessarily refering to the need of young people to make fun of others. I was talking about Nelly's demonstration that even escorts who seem to love their job can in fact despise their clients.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

I wasn't necessarily refering to the need of young people to make fun of others. I was talking about Nelly's demonstration that even escorts who seem to love their job can in fact despise their clients.

Actually, I was replying to this:

I think it's safe to assume that what Helene described really do exist.

 

[naughtylady]

Self esteem and paying for SPs

A lot of men have a real mental barrier about having to "pay for it." This is an artificial barrier because there's nothing wrong with paying for sex -- and there are a lot of advantages to doing so. Paying for it doesn't make you any less of a man.

Free sex isn't really free. In order to get a woman to have free sex with you, you have to find someone who is attracted to you and wants to have sex with you. For most men, this takes a lot of work and money.

If you go after a one night stand, then you're having sex with a stranger, just as you would with an escort. If you want to keep f@cking her, then you're going to have to develop some kind of relationship with her.

If you start a relationship, you run into one of the biggest problems with free sex: You both have to want it at the same time. You can't just get it when you want it. And then you have to deal with "where is this relationship going," and how you feel about monogamy and marriage (Which I call "doing the "M" word"). Then there's the question of dealing with her friends, her family, her lawyer, her religion, her spending habits, her television preferences, her moods, her shrink, her astrologer, her dealing with your friends and family, and trying to adjust to each other's grooming habits, musical tastes, money, property, children, pets, ex-lovers, jealousy, anger, bullshit ... all this when all you really wanted was just to get laid.

Maybe your looking for a permanent relationship. You're lonely as hell and you want that special someone to settle down with so you can have kids and live happily ever after. The problem is that you haven't gotten laid in so long that when you go out on a date you can't control yourself and you come on too quick. This messes things up and you get rejected and you're just that much more love-starved and depressed the next time. An escort can help break the cycle of rejection. You get laid a few times, feel better about yourself, and when you go out on a date you don't feel you have to get laid. You can take the time to let the relationship develop and have a better chance of finding "true love" than if you weren't seeing and escort. And you may have learned a few tricks in the mean time that make you a better lover and contribute to the relationship.

Women like men who are confident and they are repulsed by men who are sexually needy. That's why when you need to get laid the most, women don't want to be with you. And that's where escort services play an important role in society. They help men who need to get laid, get laid. And these men are far better for it.

Copied from: http://sex.perkel.com/escort/index.htm

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[Lion Heart]

Free sex isn't really free. In order to get a woman to have free sex with you, you have to find someone who is attracted to you and wants to have sex with you. For most men, this takes a lot of work and money.
.....Then there's the question of dealing with her friends, her family, her lawyer, her religion, her spending habits, her television preferences, her moods, her shrink, her astrologer, her dealing with your friends and family, and trying to adjust to each other's grooming habits, musical tastes, money, property, children, pets, ex-lovers, jealousy, anger, bullshit ... all this when all you really wanted was just to get laid.

Indeed...most don't realize how much time, effort and money is spent towards "free sex" in a relationship...until they decide to separate or divorce...

I've realized many years ago that I just can't afford "free sex" no more...that's why I choose to pay for it...

Lion Heart

 

[MakeIt]

A lot of men have a real mental barrier about having to "pay for it." This is an artificial barrier because there's nothing wrong with paying for sex -- and there are a lot of advantages to doing so. Paying for it doesn't make you any less of a man.

I like this thread and particularly the comments from YVO, Lexi and Ronnie. Self-esteem is an issue for many men entering the hobby and it does help their self-confidence. It did help for me as an unexpected side benefit.

I was always very shy with women, and Ronnie's above point struck me because I never had such as issue. Mine was that even if I was willing to pay for sex, I was still shy and nervous with women - how weird is that - a hot girl is willing to have sex with me and I'm still nervous! With time, I've managed to control this though some escorts still notice that I am nervous when I meet them. But once we get engaged, the nervousness goes away. I have to say also that some escorts I've met have been so nice and easy-going they just make the nervousness go away instantly.

I'd also like to add that after reading through the comments in thread I've concluded there seems to be 3 types of hobbyists (predominantly) - shy types who pay because this is only the way they'll ever get laid by a girl they find attractive, overly-confident types (who seem to frequent this boards a lot) because they can get laid as they please but can't handle the relationship stuff that goes with free sex, and married types because its relatively safe compared to having an affair.

Final comment- - we discuss the benefits on the self esteem of men entering the hobby but is it safe to say that MOST women (girls??) entering the hobby also have self-esteem problems? Does the hobby change their lives in a positive way?

 

[naughtylady]

I like this thread and particularly the comments from YVO, Lexi and Ronnie. Self-esteem is an issue for many men entering the hobby and it does help their self-confidence. It did help for me as an unexpected side benefit.

Final comment- - we discuss the benefits on the self esteem of men entering the hobby but is it safe to say that MOST women (girls??) entering the hobby also have self-esteem problems? Does the hobby change their lives in a positive way?

First of all, thank you for the compliment. I am glad you enjoy reading my comments.

As for self esteem I can speak for my self in saying that SPing has bolstered my self esteem. I realize now that just because I am no longer a nineteen-year-old skinny-mini does not mean that I am no longer super sexy and desirable. Heck it feels great knowing that men want me enough to pay to spend time with me and that they chose me over many other possibilities! I have higher expectations of how I deserve to be treated than ever before!

On the other hand I know of a drug addict who felt they had reached an all time low when they turned their first trick. I guess it is all in your personal perspective...

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[netwinder]

Simply amazing. Never thought of it this. Thanks for posting this.

A lot of men have a real mental barrier about having to "pay for it." This is an artificial barrier because there's nothing wrong with paying for sex -- and there are a lot of advantages to doing so. Paying for it doesn't make you any less of a man.

Free sex isn't really free. In order to get a woman to have free sex with you, you have to find someone who is attracted to you and wants to have sex with you. For most men, this takes a lot of work and money.

If you go after a one night stand, then you're having sex with a stranger, just as you would with an escort. If you want to keep f@cking her, then you're going to have to develop some kind of relationship with her.

If you start a relationship, you run into one of the biggest problems with free sex: You both have to want it at the same time. You can't just get it when you want it. And then you have to deal with "where is this relationship going," and how you feel about monogamy and marriage (Which I call "doing the "M" word"). Then there's the question of dealing with her friends, her family, her lawyer, her religion, her spending habits, her television preferences, her moods, her shrink, her astrologer, her dealing with your friends and family, and trying to adjust to each other's grooming habits, musical tastes, money, property, children, pets, ex-lovers, jealousy, anger, bullshit ... all this when all you really wanted was just to get laid.

Maybe your looking for a permanent relationship. You're lonely as hell and you want that special someone to settle down with so you can have kids and live happily ever after. The problem is that you haven't gotten laid in so long that when you go out on a date you can't control yourself and you come on too quick. This messes things up and you get rejected and you're just that much more love-starved and depressed the next time. An escort can help break the cycle of rejection. You get laid a few times, feel better about yourself, and when you go out on a date you don't feel you have to get laid. You can take the time to let the relationship develop and have a better chance of finding "true love" than if you weren't seeing and escort. And you may have learned a few tricks in the mean time that make you a better lover and contribute to the relationship.

Women like men who are confident and they are repulsed by men who are sexually needy. That's why when you need to get laid the most, women don't want to be with you. And that's where escort services play an important role in society. They help men who need to get laid, get laid. And these men are far better for it.

Copied from: http://sex.perkel.com/escort/index.htm

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[naughtylady]

netwinder>>> If you liked it that much I encourage you to check out the web site it came from: http://sex.perkel.com/escort/index.htm
That web site actually helped me get into the business.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[gamelessdork]

Nice insight.

A question for you: If I can't talk to a known SP in a public setting, what makes you think I will have the courage to change my life and talk to women who can and will say NO? We all live in our own imaginary boxes. In my box, I imagine that one day, I will not have to change, but all the hot women will change and throw themselves at me. Can I understand how this will never happen?....... yes. Can I stop hoping it will come true?... no. Am I a social retard? yes. Do I know what cool is? Yes. Will I ever learn how to be cool(for longer than 2 seconds at a time)? Most likely not.

Do you see my problem? Without help, I am not strong enough to change anything in my life. Will I even be brave enough, to ask for help? Most likely not. It is so much easier just to book the GFE SP, to make me happy & leave me with enough memories until I can get back to Montreal.

For me, I think I am making progress, communicating with women, by spending time with the SP's. I am not afraid to tell a woman what I like or too scared to tell her that something doesn't feel good to me. I have learned way more about women, than what I have seen in pornos....... but, yes I agree with you that this is a very incomplete sexual and social education.

Being with SP's are as far as my own inner fears will let me go and function somewhat normal. I know that I am a fat, old, disgusting pig and that I am lucky to be fucking a young hottie. Maybe this is why, I find it so hard to talk to women that I find attractive. I know that confidence is the most attractive trait to women....... confidence is just so hard to fake and much harder to gain.

If you are wondering, yes, I am trying to be more masculine. My friends have told me to start working out and lose my gut & build some muscle.... not so much because women won't date old, fat pigs, the main reason is so I feel better about myself. So I have joined a gym. I work in a large hotel/casino and everyday, I try to talk to women that are I have never talked to before. Maybe by the time I get back to Montreal in late May, I won't be such a mess?

Change for me is not easy and I admire you for being able to see yourself, for who you were and change the things that you did not like. I think with all of my issues, it will take longer than a year.

Thanks again for sharing something very personal with all of us. I will most likely come back to your original post and read it again and again. I may never be as strong or manly as you, but I know that I deserve happiness and that I am going to have to learn it just like you did....... by real life experiences, not just reading board posts and self-help books.

HGL

I've been in amazing shape before. Perfectly fit, very muscular, and I enver got women. In fact, I've put on 20 lbs in the past couple years, and have never been so successful with women before. I absolutely don't want to date, I cannot stand the anxiety, but I have a really gorgeous woman interested in me and I cannot bring myself to go on a date with her because of the anxiety I get..

 

[z/m(Ret)]

I've been in amazing shape before. Perfectly fit, very muscular, and I enver got women. In fact, I've put on 20 lbs in the past couple years, and have never been so successful with women before. I absolutely don't want to date, I cannot stand the anxiety, but I have a really gorgeous woman interested in me and I cannot bring myself to go on a date with her because of the anxiety I get..

Did you say "gorgeous"? Spare yourself the anxiety, I'll fill in for you!

 

[gamelessdork]

I like this thread and particularly the comments from YVO, Lexi and Ronnie. Self-esteem is an issue for many men entering the hobby and it does help their self-confidence. It did help for me as an unexpected side benefit.

I was always very shy with women, and Ronnie's above point struck me because I never had such as issue. Mine was that even if I was willing to pay for sex, I was still shy and nervous with women - how weird is that - a hot girl is willing to have sex with me and I'm still nervous! With time, I've managed to control this though some escorts still notice that I am nervous when I meet them. But once we get engaged, the nervousness goes away. I have to say also that some escorts I've met have been so nice and easy-going they just make the nervousness go away instantly.

I'd also like to add that after reading through the comments in thread I've concluded there seems to be 3 types of hobbyists (predominantly) - shy types who pay because this is only the way they'll ever get laid by a girl they find attractive, overly-confident types (who seem to frequent this boards a lot) because they can get laid as they please but can't handle the relationship stuff that goes with free sex, and married types because its relatively safe compared to having an affair.

Final comment- - we discuss the benefits on the self esteem of men entering the hobby but is it safe to say that MOST women (girls??) entering the hobby also have self-esteem problems? Does the hobby change their lives in a positive way?

To tell you the truth, the first time I ever had sex with an SP I felt like a total loser the moment she left and I probably cried for 10 minutes. I had been totally destroyed by the women I had dated, had no confidence, and had absolutely no chance with any woman, and I knew it, hence why I felt so crappy after seeing an SP. Now, after more bad relationships, and I get such bad anxiety that I cannot really go on dates, I'm totally done with pursuing any kind of relationship, so if I saw an SP, it's not because I don't want to deal with going on dates, or getting screwed over, rather than being a gamelessdork, so I wouldn't feel bad at all if I saw an Sp. i have had chances. I've been to Germany two times in the past year and didn't go to any places like Bernds or Samya despite having been broken up with my ex for 4 months before I last went....