The 2008 Hotstove Baseball Discussion Thread

[eastender]

Seriously................................

Any ball that a centerfielder can handle is his. Both the Yankees and Sox have a slow guy in left (Ramirez and Matsui) and a guy with somewhat better than average speed in right (Abreu and Drew.)


Not your point. Everybody's point. Crisp lost his job permanently to the dynamic Ellsbury during the ALCS. They're not likely to keep a $5 M backup outfielder.

Rumples,

The only time Abreu and Drew showed above average speed was when they rushed to sign inflated contracts.

Not my point but one you failed to make.

The history of Coco Crisp is that there is always someone better.Sizemore in Cleveland,Ellsbury in Boston,St.Louis figured an aging Finley was better. Many players tease you because a certain part of their game has a bit of a plus to it.Sometimes teams win with them. Trick is not to fall in love with them and move them at the right time.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

The only time Abreu and Drew showed above average speed was when they rushed to sign inflated contracts.

How would you then explain Abreu's 25 SB this past season? How would explain Drew's +19 RAA over the past two years?

Not my point but one you failed to make.

I'm not one to belabor the obvious.

The history of Coco Crisp is that there is always someone better.Sizemore in Cleveland,Ellsbury in Boston,St.Louis figured an aging Finley was better. Many players tease you because a certain part of their game has a bit of a plus to it.Sometimes teams win with them. Trick is not to fall in love with them and move them at the right time.

AS for the St. Louis trade, it was a question of need. At that time, the Cards needed a pitcher for the playoff push and, as is often the case, dealt prospects. Rather than figuring Finley was better, he more suited the team's needs. In the cases of Cleveland and Boston, Crisp was pushed aside by potential superstars.

What you say about not falling in love with players is true. Epstein is quite quick to pull the trigger when he thinks he can improve the team.

 

[eastender]

Different Skills

How would you then explain Abreu's 25 SB this past season? How would explain Drew's +19 RAA over the past two years?

Rumples,

Base stealing and playing outfield defence are two distinct skills each requiring different elements of speed. Jose Canseco could steal bases but his outfield play was laughable.

Drew's + 19 RAA. All regular MLB players have a few skills that are somewhat plus. But he is not a Dwight Evans or other Red Sox right fielders when it comes to defence.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Base stealing and playing outfield defence are two distinct skills each requiring different elements of speed. Jose Canseco could steal bases but his outfield play was laughable.

Drew's + 19 RAA. All regular MLB players have a few skills that are somewhat plus. But he is not a Dwight Evans or other Red Sox right fielders when it comes to defence.

We were not speaking about their defensive capabilities. You made a comment suggesting that they were both lacking in speed. They do not. A slow player does not steal 25 bases. A slow outfielder, despite whatever other skills he may show in the outfield, will not save his team 19 runs over two years.

 

[eastender]

My Point About Team Speed in the Outfield

Rumples,

No debate about the voting for the GG Awards. Too often the measure is being better than the previous winner.Poor method.

Thank you for making my previous point about the Yankees and Red Sox lacking team speed in the outfield. Centerfielders save runs and boost stats when the corner outfielders cannot get to balls that corner outfielders with MLB speed should handle.

Also not that I did not include Sizemore in my initial point.Added him to display the flaw in a system that names three centerfielders instead of one for each outfield position.

Finally you made my point that the Red Sox view Crisp as disposable by making the trade proposals that you did.

Rumples,

My point,per above second paragraph, was about team speed in the outfield. This does not touch base stealing AT ALL.

My comment about Drew stands.

BTW centerfielders have a problem going into the right center gap because it takes longer to make any necessary throws to third and home Often there is an advantage to having the rightfielder make such plays and the resulting throw.

 

[Joe.t]

I have two guys out of the ten penciled in as a Yankee next year.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7416810?MSNHPHMA

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I have two guys out of the ten penciled in as a Yankee next year.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7416810?MSNHPHMA

Glad you do, cause you're the only one. If the Yankees get either Santana or Cabrera, you can wave goodbye to Hughes or Chamberlain, plus Kennedy, plus Cano. Crede, of the .304 lifetime obp, might be had for Damon.

 

[Special K]

Ch.7 in Boston is reporting Mike Lowell having numerous 4 year offers on the table and in the 55-60M range. Looks like the Sox will be going after Cabrera maybe?

 

[korbel]

A-Rod the FOOL.

Hello all,

Well, lookie here. The dumb slob who once told the Yankers to put a contract of $350,000,000 for 10 years on the table or don't bother talking to ME has changed his mind. Finding that other clubs can't afford him or won't pay his price, he now professes "he's always wanted to stay a Yankee and we just didn't know it." That major asshole Scott Boras is out of the talks, and Super Fool is now in the humilating position of a pathetic suppliant. Yankers, please keep the idiot.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7446926

Yankees, A-Rod discussing new deal FOXSports.com, Updated 35 minutes ago

After opting out of the final three years of his contract with the Yankees, it appears Alex Rodriguez has had a change of heart.


In a startling turn of events, Alex Rodriguez spoke with the Steinbrenner family and New York Yankees officials Wednesday and told them he wants to stay in pinstripes.

The two sides are currently working toward a 10-year, $275 million contract, a source with knowledge of the talks told FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal. The deal also would include incentives that could push the total value higher.

Rodriguez's longtime agent, Scott Boras, wasn't involved in the talks.
"The past is the past. I don't know what brought about him approaching us," Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said in a telephone interview. "I guess you could say things didn't go the way before that he intended on and weren't handled properly or whatever.

"But the bottom line, the only thing that really matters, is he wants to stay a Yankee. And it could be very well that he's always wanted to stay a Yankee and we just didn't know it."

The discussions were first reported by the New York Daily News.
Bronx Cheers...pssfffft!!!

Korbel

 

[phill]

Reggie Jackson once said: "I am not paid to hit the ball or catch it or whatever...I am paid to put asses in the seats".

Well, if someone like Mike Lowell can get 15 Million a year, how much is A-Rod worth? Certainly more, don't you agree? Perhaps, indeed 25 Million. It is always a matter of being compared to someone else. And the contract that Lowell will sign very shortly might be the start to another inflationnal spiral...

 

[Joe.t]

Reggie Jackson once said: "I am not paid to hit the ball or catch it or whatever...I am paid to put asses in the seats".

Well, if someone like Mike Lowell can get 15 Million a year, how much is A-Rod worth? Certainly more, don't you agree? Perhaps, indeed 25 Million. It is always a matter of being compared to someone else. And the contract that Lowell will sign very shortly might be the start to another inflationnal spiral...

Korbie is just jealous that the universally recognized "best player in baseball" is not going to Boston.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Korbie is just jealous that the universally recognized "best player in baseball" is not going to Boston.

Why would Korbel be jealous that the Red Sox will not be signing a career loser?

 

[phill]

A-Rod the loser, again.

This type of reasoning reminds me when the Expos traded Gary Carter to the Mets. To all of those who were saying that the Expos had made a terrible mistake, some were always responding: "what did the Expos win with Gary in their lineup?". Granted, the Expos had not won anything, but it was not the fault of Gary Carter. Their pitching staff was too unreliable.

The same thing can be said of Alex Rodriguez*.

 

[Special K]

This type of reasoning reminds me when the Expos traded Gary Carter to the Mets. To all of those who were saying that the Expos had made a terrible mistake, some were always responding: "what did the Expos win with Gary in their lineup?". Granted, the Expos had not won anything, but it was not the fault of Gary Carter. Their pitching staff was too unreliable.

The same thing can be said of Alex Rodriguez*.

How are ARod's career post season stats Phill? Yea, I rest my case!

 

[eastender]

True.................

How are ARod's career post season stats Phill? Yea, I rest my case!

True enough.................................. Overlooking the fact that to have post season stats you have to be good enough to get to the post season.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

True enough.................................. Overlooking the fact that to have post season stats you have to be good enough to get to the post season.

That is, your team has to be good enough... Last I looked, A-Rod pitched exactly 0 innings.

 

[korbel]

Korbie is just jealous that the universally recognized "best player in baseball" is not going to Boston.

Hello Joe.t,

So begging the Tankers/Chokers/Losers to keep A-Slob/Me-Rod/April-Rod is being "jealous". You are always good for a great laugh Josey.

Luv ya,

Korbel

 

[phill]

When you say, Rumple, that A-Rod did not pitch a single inning, you are exactly making my point. Despite his disappointing stats in the post-season, no one can blame him for his team's poor pitching.

No one here seems to question the demands of Mike Lowell for a salary of 15 M per year. If Lowell is worth that much, what is the value of A-Rod then? Probably not the double of that amount, but perhaps in the neighborhood of 25 M? After all, and especially when the Yankees play on the road, A-Rod is a far better attraction than Lowell, no?

 

[korbel]

True enough.................................. Overlooking the fact that to have post season stats you have to be good enough to get to the post season.

Hello all,

Here are Me-Rod`s post season stats:

The bold numbers given are in order BA OBP SLG
1995 ALDS SEA W 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0
ALCS SEA L 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0
1997 ALDS SEA L 4 16 1 5 1 0 1 1 0 5 .313 .313 .563 0 0 0 0 0
2000 ALDS SEA W 3 13 0 4 0 0 0 2 0 2 .308 .308 .308 0 1 1 0 0
ALCS SEA L 6 22 4 9 2 0 2 5 3 8 .409 .480 .773 1 0 0 0 0
2004 ALDS NYY W 4 19 3 8 3 0 1 3 2 1 .421 .476 .737 2 1 0 0 0
ALCS NYY L 7 31 8 8 2 0 2 5 4 6 .258 .378 .516 0 0 0 0 2
2005 ALDS NYY L 5 15 2 2 1 0 0 0 6 5 .133 .381 .200 1 1
2006 ALDS NYY L 4 14 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 4 .071 .071 .071 0 0
2007 ALDS NYY L 4 15 2 4 0 0 1 1 2 6 .267 .353 .467 0 0 0 0 0

Pretty shitty while with New York for a guy whose agent told the Yankers to put $350,000,000 and 10 years on the table before the team could even talk to him. Geeeez, .071 in 2006, 1 hit...1 stinking hit. The greater the pressure the louder the SUCK!

Keep the bum,

Korbel

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

No one here seems to question the demands of Mike Lowell for a salary of 15 M per year. If Lowell is worth that much, what is the value of A-Rod then? Probably not the double of that amount, but perhaps in the neighborhood of 25 M? After all, and especially when the Yankees play on the road, A-Rod is a far better attraction than Lowell, no?

How many World Series MVPs has A-Rod won?

I don't question A-Rod's value at $25 M, despite the fact that his season always seems to end in September. What I do question is giving him a 10 year deal.

And, by the way, I question giving Lowell $15 M. Given what he's given the Sox over the last two years, I'd be all for giving him $48 M and 4 years.