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The Anti-Civilization Thread

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eastender

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Authentic

Agrippa said:
Huh?

authentic:
  1. not false or copied; genuine; real: an authentic antique
  2. having the origin supported by unquestionable evidence; authenticated; verified: an authentic document of the Middle Ages; an authentic work of the old master.

Jules Verne - early writer of science fiction.

Some one could post one of his stories without attributing the origins.
The poster then admits that it is an authentic Jules Verne story. The admission does not make science fiction true. It does not mean that what Jules Verne wrote about actually happened.
 

z/m(Ret)

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eastender said:
Playing with words again Ziggy. A story may be authentic but not necessarily true. It is possible to show that a work of fiction is the authentic work of an author but that would not make it true.

Simple yes or no did your seminal post in this thread happen in the real world.
A refusal to answer will be interpreted as a "no".
As expected, you declined taking up my bet. Cowards are those who won't put up. Believe what you want. The story is not only authentic but is also true - REAL WORLD TRUE. Proofs can be easely provided but given how arrogantly you're imposing your terms I'm not inclined to just show the said proofs without a price and the price is your handle to be removed. :D BTW, I don't see what makes a Vietnam veteran specially knowledgeable of what Boise Cascade is spraying in Oregon. One of your typical misinterpretations.

For the record, positive findings are discovered "by chance" and not "by accident"...
 
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beautydigger

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Ziggy Montana said:
Are you a betting man? If I can't prove the story's authenticity, I retire from this board. Ready to do the same?
Not much of a bet since you retired before.
 

eastender

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Terms

Ziggy Montana said:
As expected, you declined taking up my bet. Cowards are those who won't put up. Believe what you want. The story is not only authentic but is also true - REAL WORLD TRUE. Proofs can be easely provided but given how arrogantly you're imposing your terms I'm not inclined to just show the said proofs without a price and the price is your handle to be removed. :D BTW, I don't see what makes a Vietnam veteran specially knowledgeable of what Boise Cascade is spraying in Oregon. One of your typical misinterpretations.

For the record, positive findings are discovered "by chance" and not "by accident"...

Just rejected your terms.Have no terms.I do not negotiate the truth it should stand on its own.
 

eastender

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Agent Orange Part 1

For those of you interested in knowing more about "Agent Orange" go to

www.vetshome.com

Scroll the LHS and left click on "Agent Orange", six intense pages.page 4 makes no mention of Oregon spraying.
 

JustBob

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Well this seems to be relevant:

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1987/04/agentorange.html

Agent Orange's active ingredients were 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D - and with 2,4,5-T came a deadly side kick contaminant, dioxin.

In the northwestern corner of the United States, where the U.S. Forest Service sprayed dioxin contaminated 2,4,5-T onto woodlands, residents in the nearby towns complained of high rates of miscarriages. A subsequent study of the area by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) confirmed the fears of residents. One study found that Alsea, Oregon had miscarriage rates almost double those of other, non-2,4,5-T affected cities in the state. Based on these and other findings, the EPA banned most uses of 2,4,5-T in the United States in 1979.

They sprayed one of the two components of Agent Orange.

You may resolve this dispute as you wish. :)
 

eastender

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Thank You JustBob

JustBob said:
Well this seems to be relevant:

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1987/04/agentorange.html





They sprayed one of the two components of Agent Orange.

You may resolve this dispute as you wish. :)

The U.S. Forest Service is not a one of the mythical "transnational timber corporations" referred to by ZM in his seminal post in this thread nor does one of two components equal "Agent Orange" nor was Boise Cascade mentionned as one of the defendants.

Oh well at least ZM and his loyal disciples will still be around.
 

Agrippa

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Aug 22, 2006
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traveller_76 said:
DO NOT follow my example.
I thought by now you would know that this is an invitation for Ziggy to post something inane, silly, funny... and yet it still conveys some wisdom. :)

PS I beleive Schröedinger has written something on sock disappearance... ;)
 
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Chuckles

clown of many colors
Nov 14, 2004
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Oops, too late for reading postscripts properly...

traveller_76 said:
What's blue, goes up and down and up and down?
Smurfette?

traveller_76 said:
Are "they" here?
Absolutely! And they're itchy.

traveller_76 said:
Are schizophrenics sane?
Yes. And so are they.

traveller_76 said:
Did Cheney, Rumsfeld and friends all go to school together and write a manifesto on One Government?
School? What's that? We forget.

traveller_76 said:
Did Harper and friends write a manifesto for the separation of Alberta when they were in school (with walls around the province and all to protect the oil)?
School? What's that? We forget.

traveller_76 said:
Where do all those single socks out of the pair go to when they get washed? (what is lint made of?)
The socks go to my parents' cat. The lint... rather not say. :eek:

traveller_76 said:
How many merbites does it take to screw a lightbulb?
Depends on the hourly rate. (is there a discount for MERBites??) :rolleyes:

traveller_76 said:
If progress is dependent on unreasonable man, what's the point of being more reasonable?
Women.

traveller_76 said:
Who killed JFK?
I read that book, actually. Not bad.

traveller_76 said:
Who cares that no one knows?
The fine folk that collect money for "the greater good" every year. They know who they are.

traveller_76 said:
Is there a point to these stupid questions? (no, just making a few serious faces here smile)
Mmm, actually yes, there's more point to these questions than you let on... *sigh*

traveller_76 said:
In what room and with what tool did Agent Orange use to kill whoever it is (I forget) that gets killed in Clue?
I plead the Fifth.

traveller_76 said:
t76

p.s sorry for not being serious. All this is a very serious matter that should not be made fun of. DO NOT follow my example.

I didn't follow the example, and look what happened! Don't follow in my footsteps...
 

Agrippa

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Aug 22, 2006
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traveller_76 said:
Got a link (too lazy to google...)? I need to be humoured. I really don't get it. They are always in pairs, but after every wash... one of them just, poof, gone. How is that possible! I must have lost at least 50 socks in my lifetime that way. Imagine if we count EVERYONE's lost socks? That's one huge lint ball.

t76
You shouldn't have taken me seriously... :p

I'm referring to Schrödinger's thought experiment where we will never know the state of, in this case, the sock. :D Is it still in the machine or not? The only way to find out is to interfere with the experiment and therefore become entangled with it, thus nullifying it. :D

All this to say - we will never know. :D ;)
 

Chuckles

clown of many colors
Nov 14, 2004
108
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traveller_76 said:
Although I just 'got' why Smurfette would be funny (ohhh, up and down, up and down)... *sigh* indeed.:rolleyes:

t76

And here I thought that Smurfette on a teeter-totter would be hilarious... Did I forget to mention the second part? Silly me. :p

(yeah, yeah, I know my humor is hit-or-miss, mostly miss. Some of us have less to work with than others...)
 

beautydigger

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Oct 11, 2005
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Ziggy Montana said:
Unless one has a vested interest in ignorance, it should be clear to everyone that industrial civilization is killing the planet and causing unprecedented human privation and suffering.
And lets not forget those global gasses from the extermination camps inside the US either.
 

z/m(Ret)

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excerpts from the Stern Review P.1/3

STERN REVIEW: The Economics of Climate Change

Summary of Conclusions

There is still time to avoid the worst impacts of climate change, if we take
strong action now.

The scientific evidence is now overwhelming: climate change is a serious global
threat, and it demands an urgent global response.

This Review has assessed a wide range of evidence on the impacts of climate
change and on the economic costs, and has used a number of different techniques to
assess costs and risks. From all of these perspectives, the evidence gathered by the
Review leads to a simple conclusion: the benefits of strong and early action far
outweigh the economic costs of not acting.

Climate change will affect the basic elements of life for people around the world –
access to water, food production, health, and the environment. Hundreds of millions
of people could suffer hunger, water shortages and coastal flooding as the world
warms.

Using the results from formal economic models, the Review estimates that if we don’t
act, the overall costs and risks of climate change will be equivalent to losing at least
5% of global GDP each year, now and forever. If a wider range of risks and impacts
is taken into account, the estimates of damage could rise to 20% of GDP or more.
In contrast, the costs of action – reducing greenhouse gas emissions to avoid the
worst impacts of climate change – can be limited to around 1% of global GDP each
year.

The investment that takes place in the next 10-20 years will have a profound effect
on the climate in the second half of this century and in the next. Our actions now and
over the coming decades could create risks of major disruption to economic and
social activity, on a scale similar to those associated with the great wars and the
economic depression of the first half of the 20th century. And it will be difficult or
impossible to reverse these changes.

So prompt and strong action is clearly warranted. Because climate change is a
global problem, the response to it must be international. It must be based on a
shared vision of long-term goals and agreement on frameworks that will accelerate
action over the next decade, and it must build on mutually reinforcing approaches at
national, regional and international level.

Climate change could have very serious impacts on growth and development.

If no action is taken to reduce emissions, the concentration of greenhouse gases in
the atmosphere could reach double its pre-industrial level as early as 2035, virtually
committing us to a global average temperature rise of over 2°C. In the longer term,
there would be more than a 50% chance that the temperature rise would exceed
5°C. This rise would be very dangerous indeed; it is equivalent to the change in
average temperatures from the last ice age to today. Such a radical change in the
physical geography of the world must lead to major changes in the human geography
– where people live and how they live their lives.

Even at more moderate levels of warming, all the evidence – from detailed studies of
regional and sectoral impacts of changing weather patterns through to economic
models of the global effects – shows that climate change will have serious impacts
on world output, on human life and on the environment.

All countries will be affected. The most vulnerable – the poorest countries and
populations – will suffer earliest and most, even though they have contributed least to
the causes of climate change. The costs of extreme weather, including floods,
droughts and storms, are already rising, including for rich countries.

Adaptation to climate change – that is, taking steps to build resilience and minimise
costs – is essential. It is no longer possible to prevent the climate change that will
take place over the next two to three decades, but it is still possible to protect our
societies and economies from its impacts to some extent – for example, by providing
better information, improved planning and more climate-resilient crops and
infrastructure. Adaptation will cost tens of billions of dollars a year in developing
countries alone, and will put still further pressure on already scarce resources.
Adaptation efforts, particularly in developing countries, should be accelerated.

The costs of stabilising the climate are significant but manageable; delay
would be dangerous and much more costly.

The risks of the worst impacts of climate change can be substantially reduced if
greenhouse gas levels in the atmosphere can be stabilised between 450 and
550ppm CO2 equivalent (CO2e). The current level is 430ppm CO2e today, and it is
rising at more than 2ppm each year. Stabilisation in this range would require
emissions to be at least 25% below current levels by 2050, and perhaps much more.
Ultimately, stabilisation – at whatever level – requires that annual emissions be
brought down to more than 80% below current levels.

This is a major challenge, but sustained long-term action can achieve it at costs that
are low in comparison to the risks of inaction. Central estimates of the annual costs
of achieving stabilisation between 500 and 550ppm CO2e are around 1% of global
GDP, if we start to take strong action now.

Costs could be even lower than that if there are major gains in efficiency, or if the
strong co-benefits, for example from reduced air pollution, are measured. Costs will
be higher if innovation in low-carbon technologies is slower than expected, or if
policy-makers fail to make the most of economic instruments that allow emissions to
be reduced whenever, wherever and however it is cheapest to do so.

It would already be very difficult and costly to aim to stabilise at 450ppm CO2e. If we
delay, the opportunity to stabilise at 500-550ppm CO2e may slip away.

Action on climate change is required across all countries, and it need not cap
the aspirations for growth of rich or poor countries.

The costs of taking action are not evenly distributed across sectors or around the
world. Even if the rich world takes on responsibility for absolute cuts in emissions of
60-80% by 2050, developing countries must take significant action too. But
developing countries should not be required to bear the full costs of this action alone,
and they will not have to. Carbon markets in rich countries are already beginning to
deliver flows of finance to support low-carbon development, including through the
Clean Development Mechanism. A transformation of these flows is now required to
support action on the scale required.
 

z/m(Ret)

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excerpts from the Stern Review P.2/3

Action on climate change will also create significant business opportunities, as new
markets are created in low-carbon energy technologies and other low-carbon goods
and services. These markets could grow to be worth hundreds of billions of dollars
each year, and employment in these sectors will expand accordingly.

The world does not need to choose between averting climate change and promoting
growth and development. Changes in energy technologies and in the structure of
economies have created opportunities to decouple growth from greenhouse gas
emissions. Indeed, ignoring climate change will eventually damage economic growth.
Tackling climate change is the pro-growth strategy for the longer term, and it can be
done in a way that does not cap the aspirations for growth of rich or poor countries.

A range of options exists to cut emissions; strong, deliberate policy action is
required to motivate their take-up.

Emissions can be cut through increased energy efficiency, changes in demand, and
through adoption of clean power, heat and transport technologies. The power sector
around the world would need to be at least 60% decarbonised by 2050 for
atmospheric concentrations to stabilise at or below 550ppm CO2e, and deep
emissions cuts will also be required in the transport sector.

Even with very strong expansion of the use of renewable energy and other lowcarbon
energy sources, fossil fuels could still make up over half of global energy
supply in 2050. Coal will continue to be important in the energy mix around the
world, including in fast-growing economies. Extensive carbon capture and storage
will be necessary to allow the continued use of fossil fuels without damage to the
atmosphere.


Cuts in non-energy emissions, such as those resulting from deforestation and from
agricultural and industrial processes, are also essential.

With strong, deliberate policy choices, it is possible to reduce emissions in both
developed and developing economies on the scale necessary for stabilisation in the
required range while continuing to grow.

Climate change is the greatest market failure the world has ever seen, and it
interacts with other market imperfections. Three elements of policy are required for
an effective global response. The first is the pricing of carbon, implemented through
tax, trading or regulation. The second is policy to support innovation and the
deployment of low-carbon technologies. And the third is action to remove barriers to
energy efficiency, and to inform, educate and persuade individuals about what they
can do to respond to climate change.

Climate change demands an international response, based on a shared
understanding of long-term goals and agreement on frameworks for action.

Many countries and regions are taking action already: the EU, California and China
are among those with the most ambitious policies that will reduce greenhouse gas
emissions. The UN Framework Convention on Climate Change and the Kyoto
Protocol provide a basis for international co-operation, along with a range of
partnerships and other approaches. But more ambitious action is now required
around the world.

Countries facing diverse circumstances will use different approaches to make their
contribution to tackling climate change. But action by individual countries is not
enough. Each country, however large, is just a part of the problem. It is essential to
create a shared international vision of long-term goals, and to build the international
frameworks that will help each country to play its part in meeting these common
goals.

Key elements of future international frameworks should include:

• Emissions trading: Expanding and linking the growing number of emissions
trading schemes around the world is a powerful way to promote cost-effective
reductions in emissions and to bring forward action in developing countries:
strong targets in rich countries could drive flows amounting to tens of billions of
dollars each year to support the transition to low-carbon development paths.

• Technology cooperation: Informal co-ordination as well as formal agreements can
boost the effectiveness of investments in innovation around the world. Globally,
support for energy R&D should at least double, and support for the deployment of
new low-carbon technologies should increase up to five-fold. International cooperation
on product standards is a powerful way to boost energy efficiency.

• Action to reduce deforestation: The loss of natural forests around the world
contributes more to global emissions each year than the transport sector.
Curbing deforestation is a highly cost-effective way to reduce emissions; largescale
international pilot programmes to explore the best ways to do this could get
underway very quickly.

• Adaptation: The poorest countries are most vulnerable to climate change. It is
essential that climate change be fully integrated into development policy, and that
rich countries honour their pledges to increase support through overseas
development assistance. International funding should also support improved
regional information on climate change impacts, and research into new crop
varieties that will be more resilient to drought and flood.
 

z/m(Ret)

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excerpts from the Stern review p. 3/3

The Science of Climate Change: Scale of the Environment Challenge

Key Messages

An overwhelming body of scientific evidence now clearly indicates that climate change is a serious
and urgent issue. The Earth’s climate is rapidly changing, mainly as a result of increases in
greenhouse gases caused by human activities.

Most climate models show that a doubling of pre-industrial levels of greenhouse gases is very
likely to commit the Earth to a rise of between 2 – 5°C in global mean temperatures. This level of
greenhouse gases will probably be reached between 2030 and 2060. A warming of 5°C on a global
scale would be far outside the experience of human civilisation and comparable to the difference
between temperatures during the last ice age and today. Several new studies suggest up to a 20%
chance that warming could be greater than 5°C.

If annual greenhouse gas emissions remained at the current level, concentrations would be more than
treble pre-industrial levels by 2100, committing the world to 3 – 10°C warming, based on the latest
climate projections.

Some impacts of climate change itself may amplify warming further by triggering the release of
additional greenhouse gases. This creates a real risk of even higher temperature changes.

Higher temperatures cause plants and soils to soak up less carbon from the atmosphere and
cause permafrost to thaw, potentially releasing large quantities of methane.

Analysis of warming events in the distant past indicates that such feedbacks could amplify
warming by an additional 1 – 2°C by the end of the century.

Warming is very likely to intensify the water cycle, reinforcing existing patterns of water
scarcity and abundance and increasing the risk of droughts and floods.

Rainfall is likely to increase at high latitudes, while regions with Mediterranean-like climates in both
hemispheres will experience significant reductions in rainfall. Preliminary estimates suggest that the
fraction of land area in extreme drought at any one time will increase from 1% to 30% by the end of
this century. In other regions, warmer air and warmer oceans are likely to drive more intense storms,
particularly hurricanes and typhoons.

As the world warms, the risk of abrupt and large-scale changes in the climate system will rise.

Changes in the distribution of heat around the world are likely to disrupt ocean and atmospheric
circulations, leading to large and possibly abrupt shifts in regional weather patterns.

If the Greenland or West Antarctic Ice Sheets began to melt irreversibly, the rate of sea level rise
could more than double, committing the world to an eventual sea level rise of 5 – 12 m over
several centuries.

The body of evidence and the growing quantitative assessment of risks are now sufficient to
give clear and strong guidance to economists and policy-makers in shaping a response.
 

beautydigger

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Oct 11, 2005
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Gore's Glacial Lie

Ziggy Montana said:
If the Greenland or West Antarctic Ice Sheets began to melt irreversibly, the rate of sea level rise could more than double, committing the world to an eventual sea level rise of 5 – 12 m over several centuries.
An interesting footnote and one of the major lies in the movie "An Inconvenient Truth" is that Mr. Gore and Co. show the Perito Moreno Glacier in So. Argentina as an example of the result of global warming. They used this in the movie twice all the while misrepresenting its growth and in fact stating it is shrinking showing a huge chunk falling off as it does every 30 minutes or so. It is a dramatic glacier that yields tremendous photo ops to just about anyone who visits it, which I must presume is why it was used.
 

z/m(Ret)

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eastender said:
The U.S. Forest Service is not a one of the mythical "transnational timber corporations" referred to by ZM in his seminal post in this thread nor does one of two components equal "Agent Orange" nor was Boise Cascade mentionned as one of the defendants.
Nonsense. The fact you couldn't find the evidence doesn't discredit the story as being true. You're not even a challenge.
 
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z/m(Ret)

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Korbel said:
Hello JustBob,

Oh the fate of mankind if all progress depended on 100% proof. What would become of religion the focus of so much of our human character? What fate for love? What a lawless and anarchic world if justice required perfect proof.

Sometimes when it comes to this subject, JB, I wonder if skepticism is your "religion". Yes, I am exaggerating. I am "all for rational action" too. However, what good is a great economy that is globally self-destructive? All the positive attributes you refer to from industrialization aren't worth a damn if in the end we damage our world so bad that it threatens human survival. As for the warning of possible climatic calamity concerning global warming...caution is wise...wishful thinking is NOT! I hope we can all determine the difference for our sakes. :(

Sweet dreams,

Korbel
The purpose of me issuing this thread was to gauge merbite's sense of responsibility toward environmental issues. The underlying premises are as follows: Industrial Civilization is not sustainable, not redeemable and it's importance is relatively inferior to the need of the natural world. The said premises might not sit well in everyone's understanding of the issues; in any case some corollary questions were (more or less directly) raised: how close are we from witnessing a global meltdown of our ecology? Depending on one's sense of urgency and/or level of trust in the alarms raised and/or possibly other factors, answers fluctuate between an apathical sense of trust in this culture to undergo voluntary transformation to a sustainable way of living and fervent calls for action. Intermediate positions are numerous and not all clearly defined, some not necessarly being mutually exclusive (for instance, the importance, globally, of "educating the masses", a necessary yet somewhat slow process, and radical actions, typically "local", where needed the most).

In this framework, "activism" is defined as an expression of readiness for responsibility as well as a form of distrust of both the political and corporate powers (and, to some extent, of the media). Supporters and detractors of activism (specifically "environmentalism") all have their say though it appears clearly that some posters here are making it a mission to discredit the slightest case for radical action.

The problem with this sort of discreditation has not much to do with the discreditation itself. The problem lies instead on the reason for discreditation: scientific validation. In spite of the overwhelming evidence regarding the seriousness and urgency of global warming, the said posters are making a case for discrediting activism mainly on account of the "certainty principle", which is certainly one of the most effective ways to delay action on an issue, or to promote a political ideology.

From the scientific standpoint, it is also recognized that such scientific certainty does not exist. Often this sense of reasonableness is enhanced by presenting "real science" as being about certainty.

Human's activity warming the planet is not a certainty though it has been assessed with enough confidence to consider corrective and immediate action. A global, reflected and coordonated, set of actions must be taken but local, somewhat more radical, some downright violent, actions will continue where needed urgently and where those who profit from the destruction of our ecology abuse most.
 
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beautydigger

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Oct 11, 2005
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Extremist pressure groups controlling press coverage.

The Society for Environmental Journalists is one of the "activist pressure groups" working within the press to promote a political agenda under the guise of reporting the news. Free press has been deliberately undermined by radical activists masquerading as journalists, backed by big business and encouraged by big government.
The Society of Environmental Journalists is supported by, among others, the Turner Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the Vira I. Heinz Endowment, the Rockefeller Family Fund, the Hearst Corp, HBO, Knight Ridder, the Los Angeles Times, McClatchy Newspapers and Turner Broadcasting Service.
Somebody has been duped.
 
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