The language laws & The bilingual and multilingual regions
- Thread starter Techman
- Start date
Hello Techman,
You very pointedly asked: "In fact, find me one place in the world that has language laws". Well, pretty much all have "language laws". So you meant oppressive language laws, and I gave you some examples. Now you want to qualify your request by saying some countries aren't "on a par with Canada in any way you could possibly think of." So you can exclude half of Europe too...or more. You did ask for "one place in the world that has language laws", not one on the same economic standards. I guess if you want to go further and say one country that is north of the U.S. and mostly south of the Arctic Circle you can close the choices down to Canada alone and win by default.
You wrote the terms. Next time you might consider writing it the way you really want first, before you feel like adding amendments after the responses are in.
http://www.usefoundation.org/view/116
CRISIS BETWEEN FLEMISH (DUTCH) AND WALLOON (FRENCH) COMMUNITIES
Since January 2005 the relationship between the Flemish and the Walloons in the federal Parliament of Belgium has deteriorated. This situation was caused by the tension over the Brussels Region, which is the only bilingual region in the country.
The population of Brussels can vote both for Flemish and Walloon political parties. Recently the Flemish parties claimed for two "border" municipalities currently belonging to Brussels (Hal and Vilvoorde) to be attached to the Flemish Region. However, the French politicians are opposed to this proposal since it would "break" the last link between the French speaking population living in the capital and those settled in the Flemish suburbs nearby.
The Belgian political system has always been quite complicated. The coexistence of the Dutch-speaking majority and the French-speaking minority has been a source of conflicts for a long time. The State has guaranteed the two communities an equal status (there are two linguistic groups in the federal Parliament, special majority laws, which deal with the state structure, can only be adopted by a majority in each linguistic group).
The Belgian Constitution has established the federal state (represented by the federal parliament) with several communities and regions. Each community and region has its own directly elected council and its government what enables them to approve their laws (decrees) on a number of specific matters and to ensure their implementation.
Now you pulled a segment out of one link that you think supports your view, but you missed the point. Other countries struggle or struggled with this problem just like Canada. Economic standards are irrelevant to the way lives are affected by the issue at the focus of the argument. Belgium, for one example, has had the same problem for hundreds of years and it seems to have some sort of fair resolution despite the same kind of tensions despite being in the most populously dense region in the world. Point: despite much more ancient animosities continued up to this time the multi-cultural and multi-lingal issue can be resolved.
If you insist on adding the living and technology standard then Norway is about as good as it gets...unless being on the other side of the Atlantic disqualifies it. :eyebrows:
http://www.holst.no/Ingar.Holst.Publishing.Co/irregular-papers/irr1a.html
SINCE 1938 THE NATIONAL NORWEGIAN LANGUAGE has been banned. It is strictly forbidden to teach it in the government-run schools and universities (and since the private schools may be counted on one hand, and since they will have their permission to teach withdrawn if they teach the National Language anyway, that leak is effectively plugged); it is strictly forbidden to use it as a civil servant, it is strictly forbidden to speak it in the government-owned national broadcasting NRK (nation-wide broadcasts outside NRK were likewise effectively forbidden until the early eighties as for radio and until the early nineties as for television) and it is strictly forbidden to write it if the dispatcher is any government-run institution. The National Language, its culture and literature, is consequently muted to the generations growing up.
Frankly you keep writing about everything that is wrong and what is to fear...but, NO SOLUTIONS BEING OFFERED. Do you have any offerings on how to increase the unity in the community instead of just charging at the dragons Senor Quixote???
really,
Merlot
You very pointedly asked: "In fact, find me one place in the world that has language laws". Well, pretty much all have "language laws". So you meant oppressive language laws, and I gave you some examples. Now you want to qualify your request by saying some countries aren't "on a par with Canada in any way you could possibly think of." So you can exclude half of Europe too...or more. You did ask for "one place in the world that has language laws", not one on the same economic standards. I guess if you want to go further and say one country that is north of the U.S. and mostly south of the Arctic Circle you can close the choices down to Canada alone and win by default.
You wrote the terms. Next time you might consider writing it the way you really want first, before you feel like adding amendments after the responses are in. http://www.usefoundation.org/view/116
CRISIS BETWEEN FLEMISH (DUTCH) AND WALLOON (FRENCH) COMMUNITIES
Since January 2005 the relationship between the Flemish and the Walloons in the federal Parliament of Belgium has deteriorated. This situation was caused by the tension over the Brussels Region, which is the only bilingual region in the country.
The population of Brussels can vote both for Flemish and Walloon political parties. Recently the Flemish parties claimed for two "border" municipalities currently belonging to Brussels (Hal and Vilvoorde) to be attached to the Flemish Region. However, the French politicians are opposed to this proposal since it would "break" the last link between the French speaking population living in the capital and those settled in the Flemish suburbs nearby.
The Belgian political system has always been quite complicated. The coexistence of the Dutch-speaking majority and the French-speaking minority has been a source of conflicts for a long time. The State has guaranteed the two communities an equal status (there are two linguistic groups in the federal Parliament, special majority laws, which deal with the state structure, can only be adopted by a majority in each linguistic group).
The Belgian Constitution has established the federal state (represented by the federal parliament) with several communities and regions. Each community and region has its own directly elected council and its government what enables them to approve their laws (decrees) on a number of specific matters and to ensure their implementation.
Now you pulled a segment out of one link that you think supports your view, but you missed the point. Other countries struggle or struggled with this problem just like Canada. Economic standards are irrelevant to the way lives are affected by the issue at the focus of the argument. Belgium, for one example, has had the same problem for hundreds of years and it seems to have some sort of fair resolution despite the same kind of tensions despite being in the most populously dense region in the world. Point: despite much more ancient animosities continued up to this time the multi-cultural and multi-lingal issue can be resolved.
If you insist on adding the living and technology standard then Norway is about as good as it gets...unless being on the other side of the Atlantic disqualifies it. :eyebrows:
http://www.holst.no/Ingar.Holst.Publishing.Co/irregular-papers/irr1a.html
SINCE 1938 THE NATIONAL NORWEGIAN LANGUAGE has been banned. It is strictly forbidden to teach it in the government-run schools and universities (and since the private schools may be counted on one hand, and since they will have their permission to teach withdrawn if they teach the National Language anyway, that leak is effectively plugged); it is strictly forbidden to use it as a civil servant, it is strictly forbidden to speak it in the government-owned national broadcasting NRK (nation-wide broadcasts outside NRK were likewise effectively forbidden until the early eighties as for radio and until the early nineties as for television) and it is strictly forbidden to write it if the dispatcher is any government-run institution. The National Language, its culture and literature, is consequently muted to the generations growing up.
Frankly you keep writing about everything that is wrong and what is to fear...but, NO SOLUTIONS BEING OFFERED. Do you have any offerings on how to increase the unity in the community instead of just charging at the dragons Senor Quixote???
really,
Merlot
There is only one solution. A free and open society where everyone is free to make their own choices like the adults they are. Stop the fear mongering and let people LIVE THEIR LIVES AS THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEM! If someone can't handle the responsibility then they can get the fuck out and move to Iran or some other country where the ruling regime will be more than happy to tell them how to live their life. Is there nothing I can say to you to get it through your thick skull? I want EVERYONE TO BE EQUAL! I know, that's such a terrible thing to ask.
Maybe you should pay more attention to your own country where you have politicians who believe the world is only 6000 years old, that women can't get pregnant from rape and have a guest speaker who carries on a conversation with an empty chair and gets a rousing ovation from the lemmings in attendance. Those are the kind of people that I sure want to see with their finger on the nuclear trigger.
And I thought we had problems here.
Once again, i have to totally agree with the Techman.
Hey Tech, have you ever considered joining the local political scene? They need people like you. :thumb:
Love to see that happen but it will never happen. Too many power hungry people and Canadians basically are sheep, you can over tax us, lie to us, steal from us and life goes on. For the language laws here I think it is too excessive, good to conserve it but enough is enough. Everyone knows Quebec is a French province and it will stay that way. When I was younger living out west I heard the horror stories about no one will talk to you if you speak English or you will not get served in a store, well all I have to say is bullshit. I have been to many small towns where no one speaks English and have always been treated well. Be nice and people will be nice in return. My French sucks but I try and people appreciate that. If you approach someone with an arrogant attitude you should expect negative results. And I must add that Quebec has the most beautiful women around.
Sol, the people of Quebec are great people. Very friendly and open to new ideas if only they were given the chance. It's the political parties that want to keep things the way they are, or make them even more restrictive. It's the only way they can justify their existence. If the language problem went away, they'd actually have to deal with the real problems like poverty and inflation and getting the government's finances in order. Imagine where Quebec, and Canada, would be if all this had been put to bed decades ago? If all the money, time and energy wasted to constantly fight this bogus battle would have been put to other pursuits this could be the greatest country to live in in the world.
But no. Lets bicker like little brats until we manage to get our way and waste billions or trillions of dollars instead on sheer stupidity, ignorance and fear.
But no. Lets bicker like little brats until we manage to get our way and waste billions or trillions of dollars instead on sheer stupidity, ignorance and fear.
Techman said:
I suggest you both read this excerpt from Sophie Durocher's article;
Enfin, un autre lecteur, Philippe Dubois, m’a posé une excellente question.
« Quelle serait la réaction dans le ROC si au Québec, un parent anglophone qui perd la garde de son enfant était forcé de parler français à son enfant ? C’est pourtant ce qui arrive en Ontario, à des parents francophones. »
Une enquête de Radio-Canada a en effet révélé la semaine dernière que des parents francophones sont obligés de parler en anglais à leur enfant pendant des visites supervisées, « parce que la personne chargée par la cour de surveiller la rencontre est un anglophone unilingue » !
J’imagine déjà les chroniqueurs canadiens-anglais déchirer leur chemise sur la place publique si l’inverse (tout aussi ridicule et condamnable) arrivait au Québec : des parents anglos forcés de parler français à leurs enfants. Ça ferait la une de tous les journaux. Pourtant, ça se passe ainsi pour les francophones de l’Ontario et personne n’en parle.
Bon, est-ce que je viens de déclencher une autre tempête, là ?
And then try to convince anyone objectively with your thoughts!
Here's, the link to the full article
http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2012/08/30/la-haine-du-quebec-prise-deux
Sorry, it's only in french.
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Calling him a shit disturber is an insult?
WOW! I'm a constant shit disturber in my day to day activities and I don't consider I'm insulting myself with this statement.
You sure have very sensitive skin Doc
I see no reason to convince anyone of anything. If someone has lost custody and is only permitted court supervised visits, then the court appointed officer must be able to understand what is being said. If not, then there is a chance of possible danger to the child. I see nothing worng with that and would see nothing wrong with a reverse situation happening here in Quebec. The question to me is why her visits have to be supervised? Usually that is only in cases of child abuse. If that's the case, I have no pity for her and she's lucky to be allowed to see her kid at all.
Elsewhere in that article you linked to I see someone complaining of 'Quebec bashing' and 'francophone bashing' by the Montreal Gazette. Again someone who has a severe lack of understanding of the situation, or perhaps of the English language, and thinks that being against discrimination is being against French Quebec. Well if discriminating against others because of their language is part of the Quebec culture I am ashamed to be Quebecois. So many people have blinders on that it's sad to see.
PS...I have no problem with reading French because I am French.
Elsewhere in that article you linked to I see someone complaining of 'Quebec bashing' and 'francophone bashing' by the Montreal Gazette. Again someone who has a severe lack of understanding of the situation, or perhaps of the English language, and thinks that being against discrimination is being against French Quebec. Well if discriminating against others because of their language is part of the Quebec culture I am ashamed to be Quebecois. So many people have blinders on that it's sad to see.
PS...I have no problem with reading French because I am French.
MErlot, there's too much left to speculation in that Ontario case. Is the father an anglo? Has the child been raised in English in Ontario by the father? Why is the woman only allowed supervised visits? Too much missing information to make any kind of determination on the case.
And I'm done trying to discuss the language situation with you when you have not lived through anything in Quebec. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this discussion and you never will. You are an outsider and you will remain as such. You have no passion for it and no stake in it. For you it is no more than an theoretical discussion. For those of us who live here, it is OUR lives, OUR city and OUR country that are affected. You know no more about what it is like than you do about what it would be like to be a black man in Alabama in the '60s.
And I'm done trying to discuss the language situation with you when you have not lived through anything in Quebec. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this discussion and you never will. You are an outsider and you will remain as such. You have no passion for it and no stake in it. For you it is no more than an theoretical discussion. For those of us who live here, it is OUR lives, OUR city and OUR country that are affected. You know no more about what it is like than you do about what it would be like to be a black man in Alabama in the '60s.
What's wrong with having a thick skull? I don't see it as an insult, but more of a compliment. It's better to have a thick skull than a thin skull, don't ya think? :nod:
Come on, Merlot. You should welcome people giving you compliments.
Maybe we should come back to this next week, after the election results are in. As it is now, we're just going through the same old argument we have every time an election comes around. Kinda pointless, no? Let's talk about the upcoming hockey season instead. Oh yeah...probably ain't going to be one and that will make the Leafs the only team not to make the post season between lockouts.
OK, let's go laugh at Republicans! :eyebrows:!
OK, let's go laugh at Republicans! :eyebrows:!
Wrong country, Techman. Republicans are in the US, not Canada.
But just wait 2 months and the Republicans will be laughing at guys like you. :lol:
Personally i was raised in Windsor, QUEBEC(not ontario) and until i moved to Sherbrooke a few years, i think outside of TV i had saw maybe 5 black person in my whole life and they speaked french just like any other dude around here. They teached us english at school from third year(3ieme année) to sec 5 and i think you have enough time to learn the most of it and if you game online or search the internet for strategy, you can become pretty good in it. I learned english fast around my 14-17 because i met a girl online(that i eventually dated) that was speaking english, her parents where english by origin(but she was raised in both french and english and was going to french school) and we where often playing with english dudes online. I was also looking for video game tip and it was better in english, i google translated many stuff and eventually got a grip of it. And look at me now, im sure i don't do more errors in english that i do when i write french... lol(but im terrible at writing proper french) I even use a shit load of english words when i speak... its kinda like that in quebec and this is fine...
But thats the thing, thats how it should be done... french in schools, english class separately... Thats what we are pushing and i think its a good thing. English should be reffered to as the "universal language", practical for visiting countries, asking stuff, its a great way to communicate between a german and a french for exemple, but quebec main language and the language of school HAVE TO BE french.
But thats the thing, thats how it should be done... french in schools, english class separately... Thats what we are pushing and i think its a good thing. English should be reffered to as the "universal language", practical for visiting countries, asking stuff, its a great way to communicate between a german and a french for exemple, but quebec main language and the language of school HAVE TO BE french.
It does not have to be any language... whatever the natural preference of the population is should be the language that is spoken and used. It is called the Human Charter of Rights and Freedom. Maybe you prefer the communist model where everyone is equal... study in what the government tells you to study in... maybe you would agree with a uniform where everyone wears the same clothes... lives in the same type of house which are all the same size... all houses have the same color. How does that sound to you? Do you like it?
I like to be given the choice to speak whatever language I prefer and not to have it shoved down my throat like Quebec does and guess what... I just gag on it and spit it out. It is up to the Quebecois people to teach the language and culture to their offspring and to speak it among themselves that way the culture and language never dies. There are many immigrants living in this country and guess what their culture and language is alive. If people are not teaching it to their kids and not using it... then the language does not deserve to survive. Bill 101's purpose is not to ensure that the language and culture stays alive... it is to ensure that French dominates all other languages and cultures.
You know something there are a lot of products that I would like to order online mainly electronic things... but I cannot have them shipped because of the absurd language laws in Quebec... the suppliers are English only with English instruction manuals therefore it cannot be shipped here. I cannot believe that... I am ready to spend money but cannot cuz it is not in French. How ridiculous that is? I ended up having it shipped to my family living in Ontario and then they shipped it to me.
Pauvres anglais qui se sentent constement menacés, c'est vrai qu'on leur fait la vie dure avec; des universités anglophones, hôpitaux anglophones, des télés anglophones, des radios anglophones, des journaux anglophones... 400 millions contre 7 millions, vous êtes tellement a l'agonie. Ce qui vous dérange c'est que 80% de la population vote des lois pour protéger sa langue, après 200 ans de domination anglaise le peuple s'est pris en main. Sortez de l'ile de Montréal, allez a Trois-Rivières, Drummondville, Québec, Saguenay et constatez quelle langue est parlée.
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