The vaccine passport (QR code), a new debate.

[gallantca]

To the first part of your post, the government is saying they will not restrict essential services (like the bus) but only non essential services . and is doing so based on "risk". The canoe example looks stupid, but in competitive canoeing, the guy in the back is breath the air of the guy in the front. While I think many of the decisions are silly, they are based in some time of measure. I know the government has taken input from several of the sports federations. Dog training ? My guess here is they assume nobody is going to get close to my dog . Reality is the complete opposite. Dogs are magnets.

I agree there is a false sentiment of safety, but it's the level of safety vaccines bring. It's not 0 or 100%. It's grey.

As for the part of attitude, ridiculing and condescending comments, I feel this is in both camps, and particularly the extremes in each camp. "You're a socialist, you bend over to Legault, you're scared"....is no better than the other argument.

I would also bet that these types of comments would never happen in a face to face discussion over a beer. The internet brings out the worst. Things escalate quickly.

I NEVER ask someone on their status. It's none of my business. I have been asked multiple times, mostly by non vaccinated people. But they ask more on curiosity of why I made the decision....There are many people that are truly scared and I think we have to accommodate these people. But I have little tolerance for the "I don't have time" argument or the "There is a 5G chip in there".

Forced vaccination : I hope Trudeau loses his elections on his BS platform of vaccinating all civil servants. Accommodations should be made when possible. A HUGE majority of the civil service does not have public facing jobs.

 

[sene5hos]

I NEVER ask someone on their status. It's none of my business. I have been asked multiple times, mostly by non vaccinated people.

I don't agree, when I take the plane, or at the cinema, I want people around me who are vaccinated.

As I am over 65 and have 2 comorbidities, I want to enjoy my hobbies stress free.

 

[gallantca]

I don't agree, when I take the plane, or at the cinema, I want people around me who are vaccinated.

As I am over 65 and have 2 comorbidities, I want to enjoy my hobbies stress free.

Let me rephrase : I care, but it is not my right to ask and it isn't my role to enforce. I don't pull over people speeding and I don't lecture people that jay walk.

If an establishment is not enforcing the law, complain to the proper authority. Lecturing someone will do the exact opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[sene5hos]

Let me rephrase : I care, but it is not my right to ask and it isn't my role to enforce. I don't pull over people speeding and I don't lecture people that jay walk.

If an establishment is not enforcing the law, complain to the proper authority. Lecturing someone will do the exact opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.

You are probably too young to remember the seat belt debate. Many were for and others were against, and their arguments were much the same as they are today.
But in the end the law passed.

For those who were against said if we don't put it on, we take the responsibility of hurting ourselves (they didn't say to die).

And the pros said you can get in a wheelchair or in a coffin, but not the others, in short we made everyone wear it and since then we have saved thousands of lives.

 

[Francoquart]

I don't agree, when I take the plane, or at the cinema, I want people around me who are vaccinated.

As I am over 65 and have 2 comorbidities, I want to enjoy my hobbies stress free.

In other words, you believe that to be relaxed and stress free, you should force others to undertake something they are not comfortable doing under the penalty of being denied any privilege? Even though the risk of you getting infected, suffering, or dying from the Disease is extremely low, you prefer forcing it on others for your psychological comfort.

How about the people that believe that they should allow their bodies and immunity to adapt to this virus, and create its proper defences, instead of having to rely on a vaccine each year? On what basis is that right or opinion dismissed? You want to give us weaker immunity to enjoy your hobbies stress free?

The issue of the passport has nothing to do with your right to take the vaccine. It mainly concerns segregation, alienation, and in some ways coercion. I am sorry to say that, but the issue has become even important that your own health. It is not a small matter, or a divergence of opinions anymore, An act has been made against freedom of choice and opinions that if left unchecked could lead to more of the same. The virus and its variant can become an excuse to impose or change many things by force (direct or indirect).

The comparison to a car seat belt made by another Gentleman is silly. The impact of you putting the seat belt is not permanent like the vaccine can be.

Some restaurants here in Montreal have decided to close their dining rooms, and only do take outs and deliveries in protest. These need to be applaused for refusing this transgression on personal rights. It is a small step in the right direction, and hopefully it will grow. Conspiracy theorist, and dramatic theorist are just the same in my opinion. They are misleading, and their calls for action is always destructive. The vaccine passport clearly satisfies both of those sides, and gives them ammunition.

 

[Anna Bijou]

To the first part of your post, the government is saying they will not restrict essential services (like the bus) but only non essential services . and is doing so based on "risk". The canoe example looks stupid, but in competitive canoeing, the guy in the back is breath the air of the guy in the front. While I think many of the decisions are silly, they are based in some time of measure. I know the government has taken input from several of the sports federations. Dog training ? My guess here is they assume nobody is going to get close to my dog . Reality is the complete opposite. Dogs are magnets.

I agree there is a false sentiment of safety, but it's the level of safety vaccines bring. It's not 0 or 100%. It's grey.

As for the part of attitude, ridiculing and condescending comments, I feel this is in both camps, and particularly the extremes in each camp. "You're a socialist, you bend over to Legault, you're scared"....is no better than the other argument.

I would also bet that these types of comments would never happen in a face to face discussion over a beer. The internet brings out the worst. Things escalate quickly.

I NEVER ask someone on their status. It's none of my business. I have been asked multiple times, mostly by non vaccinated people. But they ask more on curiosity of why I made the decision....There are many people that are truly scared and I think we have to accommodate these people. But I have little tolerance for the "I don't have time" argument or the "There is a 5G chip in there".

Forced vaccination : I hope Trudeau loses his elections on his BS platform of vaccinating all civil servants. Accommodations should be made when possible. A HUGE majority of the civil service does not have public facing jobs.

You're just as close if fishing with someone.

Biodome : passport
Museum : no passport

LOL, I mean really. A 5 year old could see little sense that makes.



How is fishing an essential service?

This is a really good post and summary of how many of us libertarians feel.

But in fairness there are a couple of more decision points to make.

Even though he got derided for it, the U.S. politician Mitt Romney was correct when he said that corporations are people, too.

So strictly speaking, each business entity should have the right to admit or deny entry to anyone based on vaccination status.


And look at The Left’s other problem here.

You have many interesting comments but I refuse to make this a debate about the left the right.



I don't think that those of us who have supported or simply not objected to mandatory vaccinations are not fully considering what the objections are about.

We have dismissed it without considering the issues at stake or the concerns when it's becoming clear that this is not just a conspiracy theory.

Valid points are being made and questions raised by credible, knowledgeable professionals, which at this point have to be considered and addressed by everyone.

I'm not comfortable just dismissing it anymore. At this point, it's just blindly following the herd and uncritical trust in government.

This black and white approach makes it even harder to feel informed and know where to find truly unbiased information. It's like two propaganda campaigns. I want to be informed without the source of information having the intention to convince me that I need to agree with x position and only be given information that supports this.

We're all on the same side and we should all be able to make informed decisions.

I feel like I am not equipped to confidently say my decision is informed. I think that if people ask themselves, they might come to the same conclusion.

I also feel very strongly that we are opening the door to serious privacy issues and for governments to take advantage once they're in the door. I keep thinking of the 'shock doctrine' Naomi Klein has been writing about for a long time.

I think quebec acted too fast and that this 'passport' system didn't have to be imposed so rapidly. One of the very obvious reasons is that it didn't even provide enough time to actually comply for those who had not had their first dose yet or only recently got it. No other province in Canada has implemented such a system yet. (I know, Ontario is not too far behind)

Do I really want to provide not only proof of vaccination but my personal identification documents to business and corporations? Actually, no I don't want to give that personal information. Are people really thinking about what it means to give away their privacy rights like that?

You go to a bar and volunteer access to your health information, your name, your date of birth, some sort of identification number (RAMQ or driver's licence), possibly your address, your picture.. And you're cool with that?

You think that corporations will just ignore the ways this data can be used to their advantage, for profit? You don't think any of those places will not save and store your data in databases vulnerable to being hacked?

 

[CLOUD 500]

You have many interesting comments but I refuse to make this a debate about the left the right.

You are right to do that. Left or right is irrelevant. The debate is correctly about authoritarianism vs libertarianism.

 

[Stx]

Many interesting philosophical and ethical points have been raised in this thread, but many if not most fail to fully understand the epidemiological situation we find ourselves in.

1. The vaccines are the only way out of this pandemic.
2. The covid vaccines are some of the greatest achievements in the history of medicine and have a far far better efficacy and safety profile than the vast majority of medications that people take on a daily basis. They are as close to a medical miracle as we've ever seen.
3. The alternative to the passport is a lockdown.

This debate isn't happening in a vacuum.

Another point is that no one has a god given right to eat at a restaurant, go to a gym, go to the movies, etc. These are non-essential privileges. You can choose to not receive the vaccine, no one will force you. However, you would forfeit your access to those privileges as you would be risking others people's safety if you were to retain said access. Of course, you'd also be risking your own health but ethically speaking, that is a lot less problematic than putting others in danger.

Indeed, this is not a situation where coercion is happening. There is no threat of violence for those who refuse to get vaccinated. No one is being forced to be vaccinated. Bodily autonomy is being preserved. This is merely society adapting to the current reality.

The only way to keep cases and by extension hospitalizations manageable is with lockdowns. However, locking down indefinitly would be disastrous and is not a realistic proposition for a variety of reasons. Thankfully, if everyone were vaccinated there would be no need to lockdown as everyone would be immune. Unfortunately, there is a large minority who refuses to get vaccinated. How do we solve this equation? The vaccinated can go on with their lives and the unvaccinated essentially lock themselves down.

Thus, no more imposed blanket lockdowns from the government. No more curfew. Anyone who wants to participate in civil society is free to do so as long as they are vaccinated.

 

[Onyxx]

Concernant le point 1, cela est entièrement faux, la meilleure immunité est l’immunité naturelle pour les gens assez jeunes et sans comorbidité. Cela sans compter que ce vaccin peut causer la mort ou des séquelles définitives à ces gens qui n’auraient pas dû le recevoir.

Je ne suis pas non plus d’accord qu’il n’y a pas de coercition qui se fait. Quand les médias et politique commencent à promouvoir l’idée de la vaccination obligatoire, c’est déjà de la coercition sans compter leur pression antérieure pour une vaccination de masse qui n’en finit plus de finir tellement qu’ils ne comprennent rien et qu’ils font les sourds d’oreille…

 

[gallantca]

Concernant le point 1, cela est entièrement faux, la meilleure immunité est l’immunité naturelle pour les gens assez jeunes et sans comorbidité. Cela sans compter que ce vaccin peut causer la mort ou des séquelles définitives à ces gens qui n’auraient pas dû le recevoir.

Sans restrictions sanitaires ? Pour arriver a l'immunité naturelle, sans restrictions, de milliers de gens vont mourrir de la Covid, sans compter ceux qui vont mourrir du a un système de santé engorgé.

 

[Stx]

Concernant le point 1, cela est entièrement faux, la meilleure immunité est l’immunité naturelle pour les gens assez jeunes et sans comorbidité. Cela sans compter que ce vaccin peut causer la mort ou des séquelles définitives à ces gens qui n’auraient pas dû le recevoir.

Je ne suis pas non plus d’accord qu’il n’y a pas de coercition qui se fait. Quand les médias et politique commencent à promouvoir l’idée de la vaccination obligatoire, c’est déjà de la coercition sans compter leur pression antérieure pour une vaccination de masse qui n’en finit plus de finir tellement qu’ils ne comprennent rien et qu’ils font les sourds d’oreille…

Ta réponse au point 1 est entièrement éronnée. Il va falloir que tu explique ton argument avec des études scientifique récentes, car je peux te dire que la médecine n'est pas de ton coté. Le risque à la santé d'attrapper la covid vs recevoir le vaccin est incomparable. La pillule de viagra que le MERBist typique consomme comme des bonbons est 10x plus "dangereux" que le vaccin. D'un point de vue purement médical, le risque associé au vaccin mRNA est 0. Zero. Nada.

Une infection naturelle toute seule offre peu d'immunité comparée à 2 doses de vaccins. En faite, la meilleure protection semble consister d'une infection sévère + 1 dose de vaccin par la suite.

Pour ton point sur les jeunes, je te dirais de venir voir notre ICU à l'Hopital Maisonneuve-Rosemont. Nos patients hospitalisés ne sont plus des gens fragiles de 80 ans car cette population est vaccinée à 90+%, ce sont des adultes dans de 20-50 ans qui n'étaient pas vaccinés. Même des enfants se font hospitaliser pour la covid maintenant. C'est le cas dans tous les hopitaux du Québec.

Un autre point à considéré est la "longue covid", qui semble affecter les jeunes presque autant que les personnes plus âgés. Si tu es jeune, tu ne vas probablement pas mourir de la covid, mais il y a un risque relativement important de te retrouver malade pour des mois. Une étude récente venant de la Grande - Bretagne vient de démontrer que les vaccins réduit le risque de développer ce syndrome suite à une infection de plus de 50%.

 

[Fradi]

Anna,

I think you raise many valid points about the inconsistency and the ridiculousness of where vaccination is required.
As somebody who was born in a country ( luckily my parents took me away from there when I was very young) where government dictated your whole life, I am not comfortable with being forced by them into anything.

Unfortunately there is no middle ground here, it is not as if once you are fully vaccinated you are totally immune so being exposed to an unvaccinated person wont make a difference. They are much more likely to spread it and get it which is evident by the daily statistics, close to 80% of people are fully vaccinated yet 83 % of the daily new infected are the unvaccinated to me this is quite clear.
On top of that all our children under 12 are unvaccinated don’t they deserve to be protected as much as possible.
So far it is a mixed bag, government has not outright forced vaccination on people however in some cases it is totally impacting their lives because some government workers are being told that unless they get vaccinated they will lose their job and they are giving private companies the same power.
Now would I want an Unvaccinated nurse or doctor taking care of me or any of my family members, definitely not, I don't want an unvaccinated person sitting next to me in a restaurant or an airplane either, and I certainly wouldn’t see an unvaccinated SP.
It is not an easy situation for government or people, and it is not something any of the generations living today have faced, The majority of people seem to be going along with what is happening some reluctantly which is where I think I am.
I completely agree with it health wise but realize it could lead to a lot of bad things in the future, government should not be given these type of powers lightly and all of it should be revoked once the pandemic is no longer a threat.
I do believe the passport is a good thing and it is being adopted in many countries around the world what would be even better is if people decided on their own to get vaccinated and we could finally achieve herd immunity and beat this thing it is a horrible situation for both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

 

[Francoquart]

Sans restrictions sanitaires ? Pour arriver a l'immunité naturelle, sans restrictions, de milliers de gens vont mourrir de la Covid, sans compter ceux qui vont mourrir du a un système de santé engorgé.

This is not a valid point because options are not limited to just Vaccine or not Vaccine. Those that are at risk should be encouraged to take it, especially that they are mostly senior people. However, the young ones, and the healthy ones should not be required to.

Moreover, there are no real indications that the Vaccine will stop the pandemic. Variants of the Virus are already spreading and lessening the efficiency of the Vaccine. We need to accept the reality that this Virus is not going to die out, but will do whatever it takes to stay, which means it will keep generating new variants. The best long-term strategy is to let our immunity lean how to develop proper defenses against it. We always need to remember that MOST of the infected people are just fine, the people that are suffering form it is only a small portion of them, and the ones dying are even smaller.

The passport completely dismisses this strategy. Instead, it tells us that the only viable strategy is the Vaccine, then another, then another, then God knows where it will stop. I mean, just imagine how much money these companies are making. If 7 billion people get vaccinated each year, double, triple, or whatever number of shots, the math is scary in terms of profits. I do not believe any industry in history would be making this much money. Watching all those videos made to promote the Vaccine, I can only see them as commercials. I believe the motivation for the passport is clear, “follow the money” as they say.

The hospitals getting crowded is a legitimate concern, but instead of paying all that money for the Vaccine, better medical infrastructure would be much more effective for the long term. I am also certain it will cost much less.

The best strategies are always mixed ones, as they provide solutions for the short, medium, and long term. All arguments and claims rooted in fear are usually manipulative. They are always used by dictators and tyrants, who always promotes their solutions as the only viable ones.

I am unable to understand the following: If you get the vaccine to be protected from the Virus, why are you so afraid of the non vaccinated? I mean the virus can spread also from a vaccinated person. The fact that the viral charge is higher with the non vaccinated is nullified when scaled through the population. The difference is not week or months, but just 2 or 3 days supposedly, so how does it really make a difference, especially in big cities? The answer is that the difference is almost zero, which means that the passport's "raison d'être" is not valid, and just BS.
The coercion on the other hand is real. Our freedom of choice has been touched. Force is not used, that is true, but psychological pressure, brainwashing, using the carrot and the stick methods. These are all elements that can de defined as coercion. The divisive impact of the Passport is also a witness as to how dangerous this might become in the future.

 

[gallantca]

This is not a valid point because options are not limited to just Vaccine or not Vaccine. Those that are at risk should be encouraged to take it, especially that they are mostly senior people. However, the young ones, and the healthy ones should not be required to.

Moreover, there are no real indications that the Vaccine will stop the pandemic. Variants of the Virus are already spreading and lessening the efficiency of the Vaccine. We need to accept the reality that this Virus is not going to die out, but will do whatever it takes to stay, which means it will keep generating new variants. The best long-term strategy is to let our immunity lean how to develop proper defenses against it. We always need to remember that MOST of the infected people are just fine, the people that are suffering form it is only a small portion of them, and the ones dying are even smaller.

The passport completely dismisses this strategy. Instead, it tells us that the only viable strategy is the Vaccine, then another, then another, then God knows where it will stop. I mean, just imagine how much money these companies are making. If 7 billion people get vaccinated each year, double, triple, or whatever number of shots, the math is scary in terms of profits. I do not believe any industry in history would be making this much money. Watching all those videos made to promote the Vaccine, I can only see them as commercials. I believe the motivation for the passport is clear, “follow the money” as they say.

The hospitals getting crowded is a legitimate concern, but instead of paying all that money for the Vaccine, better medical infrastructure would be much more effective for the long term. I am also certain it will cost much less.

The best strategies are always mixed ones, as they provide solutions for the short, medium, and long term. All arguments and claims rooted in fear are usually manipulative. They are always used by dictators and tyrants, who always promotes their solutions as the only viable ones.

I am unable to understand the following: If you get the vaccine to be protected from the Virus, why are you so afraid of the non vaccinated? I mean the virus can spread also from a vaccinated person. The fact that the viral charge is higher with the non vaccinated is nullified when scaled through the population. The difference is not week or months, but just 2 or 3 days supposedly, so how does it really make a difference, especially in big cities? The answer is that the difference is almost zero, which means that the passport's "raison d'être" is not valid, and just BS.
The coercion on the other hand is real. Our freedom of choice has been touched. Force is not used, that is true, but psychological pressure, brainwashing, using the carrot and the stick methods. These are all elements that can de defined as coercion. The divisive impact of the Passport is also a witness as to how dangerous this might become in the future.

Natural immunity would be great. Getting to a safe spot by natural immunity will probably mean the collapse of our entire health care system.

A small percentage of the population has developed natural immunity, we were extremely restricted and we were at the brink.

BTW, several countries tried this with remarkable failure.

Vaccines cost $60 for two doses, x7 million people= 420million dollars. If you think 420 million dollars is going to fix the health care system you may want to redo your calculations. 420 million dollars isn't going to buy the doctors and nurses that simply don't exist.

Vaccination is about slowing down the virus so we a) the healthcare system can survive b) we don't have to live with severe restrictions.

To Anna's points, she is right. There is a need for discussion/debate with legal minds, ethicists, physcologists and others. But that discussion needs to be based on scientific fact. The above post shows there is little to no understanding of the underlying fact. Some of the most brilliant doctors in the world have made peer reviewed data available. On top of that we have the real world 'shit show' that other geographies are living. But we still refuse to look at the underlying data.

Ethics : there is a debate.
Human rights : there is a debate.
Physcological impact : debate.
Privacy we can debate.
Economic impact, we can debate
This are all valid as per Anna's comments.

But that the health care system can survive what some people are proposing is black and white WRONG. It is suicidal.

If you want a debate, get the right people together and make the decisions based on scientific fact, not opinion.

 

[sene5hos]

The coercion on the other hand is real. Our freedom of choice has been touched. Force is not used, that is true, but psychological pressure, brainwashing, using the carrot and the stick methods. These are all elements that can de defined as coercion. The divisive impact of the Passport is also a witness as to how dangerous this might become in the future.

Here in Canada as soon as something is a little left field, we talk about coercion.

Like the vaccination passport. I don't call it coercion, I call it common sense for the health of Canadians.

Always the same sentence "Our freedom of choice has been touched"

Yes, coercion exists in several countries.

 

[Francoquart]

Natural immunity would be great. Getting to a safe spot by natural immunity will probably mean the collapse of our entire health care system.

A small percentage of the population has developed natural immunity, we were extremely restricted and we were at the brink.

BTW, several countries tried this with remarkable failure.

Vaccines cost $60 for two doses, x7 million people= 420million dollars. If you think 420 million dollars is going to fix the health care system you may want to redo your calculations. 420 million dollars isn't going to buy the doctors and nurses that simply don't exist.

Vaccination is about slowing down the virus so we a) the healthcare system can survive b) we don't have to live with severe restrictions.

"Pfizer, with its German partner BioNTech, will be given $1.95 billion for 100 million doses".
Johnson & Johnson received $456 million for vaccine research and development and will be paid $1 billion for 100 million doses.
Moderna received nearly $1 billion for its COVID-19 vaccine development and is set to receive an additional $1.5 billion for 100 million doses.
The source of these numbers.

How Much Will It Cost to Get a COVID-19 Vaccine?

The federal government has poured billions of dollars into COVID-19 vaccine research, development, and production. Under Operation Warp Speed, as soon as the vaccines receive emergency approval by the FDA, which could come as early as mid-December, millions of doses will be distributed across...

www.healthline.com

These are even before the vaccin was up and running. Of course now with the variants etc...
The money is huge.
The calculation you have made are not very accurate.
Lets use it as a starting point and improve on it.
You are considering only the Quebec market, which is a very small market for these huge medical companies. As far as quebec is concerned, the cost of buying those vaccines are assuming your number is correct, and assuming 80 percent will get the 2 shots is 7 millions * 80 percent= 5millions 600 thousands person* 60 per 2 shots 336 million a year. Number of years is unknown, but gonna assume at least the next 3 years at this stage 1.008 billions dollars. This is of course not counting the logistical cost, the medical staff, etc... It easily could spiral to 3 times. If 3 billions dollars are not enough then vaccin or no, we are in deep sht.
As for the countries trying and failing, this is not a fact, as i do not believe there is a definite measure of success.

 

[gallantca]

"Pfizer, with its German partner BioNTech, will be given $1.95 billion for 100 million doses".
Johnson & Johnson received $456 million for vaccine research and development and will be paid $1 billion for 100 million doses.
Moderna received nearly $1 billion for its COVID-19 vaccine development and is set to receive an additional $1.5 billion for 100 million doses.
The source of these numbers.

How Much Will It Cost to Get a COVID-19 Vaccine?

The federal government has poured billions of dollars into COVID-19 vaccine research, development, and production. Under Operation Warp Speed, as soon as the vaccines receive emergency approval by the FDA, which could come as early as mid-December, millions of doses will be distributed across...

www.healthline.com

These are even before the vaccin was up and running. Of course now with the variants etc...
The money is huge.
The calculation you have made are not very accurate.
Lets use it as a starting point and improve on it.
You are considering only the Quebec market, which is a very small market for these huge medical companies. As far as quebec is concerned, the cost of buying those vaccines are assuming your number is correct, and assuming 80 percent will get the 2 shots is 7 millions * 80 percent= 5millions 600 thousands person* 60 per 2 shots 336 million a year. Number of years is unknown, but gonna assume at least the next 3 years at this stage 1.008 billions dollars. This is of course not counting the logistical cost, the medical staff, etc... It easily could spiral to 3 times. If 3 billions dollars are not enough then vaccin or no, we are in deep sht.
As for the countries trying and failing, this is not a fact, as i do not believe there is a definite measure of success.

The numbers I put are higher than what you put so thank you for making my point stronger.

FYI, 1billion for 100million doses is $10 per dose. I used $30 per dose, whether it's 20 or 50 makes no difference. To every dose add the cost to administer it.

BTW, Flus vaccines historically cost $25 to $30 dollars, if you paid for it yourself. It's a rough budgetary number.

The point is, no matter how much you decide to spend THERE ARE NO DOCTORS AND NURSES TO BUY !!!! So saying we should take the vaccine dollars and spend it on our healthcare systems gets us nothing in the short term, nothing to get us through this pandemic.

Rebuilding the healthcare system over years is absolutely required. We need to get out of the situation we are in and prevent it from happening in the next pandemic.

As for countries that failed, Sweden reverted course after they failed. The UK started, saw they would hit a wall and changed direction.
And lets not talk about Brazil. That idiot killed thousands of people and is THE source of disaster in south America. The nastiest variants originated in Brasil. South America is the cluster F of the world when it comes to Covid. This is the prime example of what happens when you don't control this thing.

And if you don't want to believe this, tell me one place that was successful with the approach you are proposing.

 

[Anna Bijou]

Here in Canada as soon as something is a little left field, we talk about coercion.

Like the vaccination passport. I don't call it coercion, I call it common sense for the health of Canadians.

Always the same sentence "Our freedom of choice has been touched"

Yes, coercion exists in several countries.

That is a dangerous way to see it. You're showing the end of the spectrum. It doesn't happen overnight in a free democracy. It's a process that goes through several steps and it happens gradually. Because people let it happen by having the same attitude as yours.

 

[gallantca]

I am unable to understand the following: If you get the vaccine to be protected from the Virus, why are you so afraid of the non vaccinated? I mean the virus can spread also from a vaccinated person.

I forgot to answer this question, sorry. Here is a picture

th

See those big bars on the left of hospitalizations ? Those are people occupying a bed that a person with Cancer, heart attack, knee surgery and others need. If they were vaccinated, that bar would one quarter of be the little green one on the right. Is this not obvious ?

 

[CLOUD 500]

I forgot to answer this question, sorry. Here is a picture


View attachment 15860th

See those big bars on the left of hospitalizations ? Those are people occupying a bed that a person with Cancer, heart attack, knee surgery and others need. If they were vaccinated, that bar would be the little green one on the right. Is this not obvious ?

But the government is not at fault? Government is never held acccountable for anything but they are 100% at fault. Look at the hospitalizations in the last 15 years. The system is under resourced given the demand. Ppl got problems finding a family doctor, patients waiting months to get elective surgeries, months to get an appointment, patients out in the hallways. And we got a dirtbag like Fidel Trudope who rather send money to foreign countries and keeps on bringing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants making the healthcare system worse. Look at the real issue. See how other G7 countries were able to handle it vs Canada. Our cases are really low compared to say UK or France. Other countries were so quick to add temporary hospitals to address the increase of sick ppl whereas Canada could not even handle the small amount of cases we had (small compared to other G7 countries).