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The vaccine passport (QR code), a new debate.

Like_It_Hot

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@Halloween, concerning your post #180 I get your point, but you know when you make an exception there is always an other one asking for the same and when you are in the line of fire you just rules out things. That is the difference between being an observer (you and me) and being sort of commander in chief. I generally don't like the crowd. So, me too I was going to cinema, mostly avoiding week-ends and 25 peoples in the room was more the rule than exception. I always wondered how cinema owners made their money... But fridays and saturdays were full... You had some bars with 100 of clients for x square feet and other with 1000 clients for the same x square feet. You and I do not want the police everywhere and the owners mostly do not want to play this role either. We all saw what happened in this Québec's Gym with its reckless owner. Sure It was tough, but if Quebec is in general in good position now to come down on rules it is because of all those rules, the majority accepting the rules (not easy, I missed a lot hugging my children and grand-children) and the vaccination progressing so well. Things may applied differently if a similar event come back in a few year but we learned a lot since 2 years... Let's hope for the best.
 
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sene5hos

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Some countries like India etc have extremely crowded population so its normal it killed a lot of peoples, especially since lots of them are poor and could maybe not access proper care. Its also very religious so these events could spread.
In Brazil, there are 563,000 deaths for 212 million inhabitants.

It is proof beyond any doubt that mismanagement of the pandemic killed hundreds of thousands of people.
And you're not talking about side effects.

You only think of your little person.
 

gallantca

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In Brazil, there are 563,000 deaths for 212 million inhabitants.

It is proof beyond any doubt that mismanagement of the pandemic killed hundreds of thousands of people.
And you're not talking about side effects.

You only think of your little person.

563,000 / 212,000,000 = .00266 so a .266% chance of dying. That is exactly Mike's argument which is not valid. (it's actually valid if you're totally self centered).

Take the number of people that caught it. 20,165,172 / 212,000,000 = and that's a 9% chance of catching it. You will almost certainly infect someone else.

So there is a 9% chance you will put someone else's life at risk FOR NO REASON.

A little selfish ?
 

gallantca

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Oh and then there's this
I'll let the doc respond to your comments but I'll add something to the flafla over myMyocarditis.
They made a huge stink about this, especially in kids.

I don't have the data on hand but the anlysis it went something like this

10,000 vaccinated kids
10 developed MyoCarditis symptoms and went to the hospital for treatment.
0 died

10,000 unvaccinated kids
40 were hospitalized for Covid
3 died

So you basically have fewer people going to the hospital, although for different reasons and less people dying.

Make sense ?
 

gaby

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QUÉBEC....Dubé a annoncé ce jour la mise en place du passeport vaccinal dès le 1er Septembre. Il s'appliquera pour tout le Québec et non par région...et visera les activités non essentielles....1- les évènements publics intérieurs et extérieurs à haute affluence---festival-
spectacle--sports....2- activités à haute socialisation---restos---bars--gym..........la mécanique et plus de détails à venir dans la semaine du 23.

Note...Les EMPLOYÉS ne sont pas soumis à la vaccination à cause des règles du Code du travail.....MAIS le gouvernement fait le pari qu'en étant aussi des utilisateurs des restos---bars-gym--la très grande majorité sera vaccinée.

Note..Dubé a dit que 30% des cas positifs actuellement sont reliés au variant DELTA et qu'il s'attendait à le voir grimper dans les 50% dans les prochaines semaines.
 

AlmostMidaged

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Aug 9, 2020
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HM.
Nope you think it was to any governments advantage to inflate covid deaths you are dreaming.
Yes there were some that died from cancer, heart attack whatever.

I’m just quoting the section I care to address. All I have to say is that you’re wrong, and likely thinking only of the West. There’s a few countries out there who are using covid as a play to implement true authoritarian rule. And in those areas it’s absolutely advantageous to inflate deaths and cases.

With regards to the west, I don’t think for a second government explicitly sought out to inflate death. Rather, I would say tdeath from covid and death with covid hasn’t always been separated in reporting. There’s a big difference in many cases. Ultimately, I doubt even with these errors that the total amount of deaths falls by even 100k. Covid has ravaged where its ravaged.
 
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gladrx

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Feb 7, 2018
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If you have any questions let me know.

What do you think of the many theories I've been reading about lately which claim that for certain viruses releasing a 'leaky' i.e. non-sterilizing vaccine in the middle of a pandemic is to be blamed for the emergence of more virulent strains. I'm no anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist, just genuinely curious.


"The deadliest strains of viruses often take care of themselves — they flare up and then die out. This is because they are so good at destroying cells and causing illness that they ultimately kill their host before they have time to spread.

But a chicken virus that represents one of the deadliest germs in history breaks from this conventional wisdom, thanks to an inadvertent effect from a vaccine. Chickens vaccinated against Marek’s disease rarely get sick. But the vaccine does not prevent them from spreading Marek’s to unvaccinated birds.

“With the hottest strains, every unvaccinated bird dies within 10 days. There is no human virus that is that hot. Ebola, for example, doesn’t kill everything in 10 days.”

In fact, rather than stop fowl from spreading the virus, the vaccine allows the disease to spread faster and longer than it normally would, a new study finds. The scientists now believe that this vaccine has helped this chicken virus become uniquely virulent. (Note: it only harms fowl). The study was published on Monday in the journal PLOS Biology.

This is the first time that this virus-boosting phenomenon, known as the imperfect vaccine hypothesis, has been observed experimentally.

The reason this is a problem for Marek’s disease is because the vaccine is “leaky.” A leaky vaccine is one that keeps a microbe from doing serious harm to its host, but doesn’t stop the disease from replicating and spreading to another individual. On the other hand, a “perfect” vaccine is one that sets up lifelong immunity that never wanes and blocks both infection and transmission.

It’s important to note childhood vaccines for polio, measles, mumps, rubella and smallpox aren’t leaky; they are considered “perfect” vaccines. As such, they are in no way in danger of falling prey to this phenomenon.

But the results do raise the questions for some human vaccines that are leaky – such as malaria, and other agricultural vaccines, such as the one being used against avian influenza, or bird flu.

Marek’s disease has plagued the chicken industry, it causes $2 billion in losses annually for fowl farmers across the globe. The virus attacks the brain, spawns tumors in the birds and comes in different varieties or “strains”, which are classified as “hot” or “cold” based on their brutality.

Andrew Read, who co-led the study, had heard about the severe effects of the hottest Marek’s strains before his lab started studying the disease about a decade ago, but even he was surprised when he finally saw the virus in action.

“With the hottest strains, every unvaccinated bird dies within 10 days. There is no human virus that is that hot. Ebola, for example, doesn’t kill everything in 10 days,” said Read, who is an evolutionary biologist at Penn State University.

In recent years, experts have wondered if leaky vaccines were to blame for the emergence of these hot strains. The 1970s introduction of the Marek’s disease immunizations for baby chicks kept the poultry industry from collapse, but people soon learned that vaccinated birds were catching “the bug” without subsequently dying. Then, over the last half century, symptoms for Marek’s worsened. Paralysis was more permanent; brains more quickly turned to mush.

“People suspected the vaccine, but the problem was that it was never shown before experimentally,” said virologist Klaus Osterrieder of the Free University of Berlin, who wasn’t involved in the study. “The field has talked about these types of experiments for a very long time, and I’m really glad to see the work finally done.”

Read’s group started their investigation by exposing vaccinated and unvaccinated Rhode Island Red chickens to one of five Marek’s disease strains that ranged from hot to cold. The hottest strains killed every unvaccinated bird within 10 days, and the team noticed that barely any virus was shed from the feathers of the chickens during that time. (The virus spreads via contaminated dust in chicken coops). In contrast, vaccination extended the lifespan of birds exposed to the hottest strains, with 80 percent living longer than two months. But the vaccinated chickens were transmitting the virus, shedding 10,000 times more virus than an unvaccinated bird.

“Previously, a hot strain was so nasty, it wiped itself out. Now, you keep its host alive with a vaccine, then it can transmit and spread in the world,” Read said. “So it’s got an evolutionary future, which it didn’t have before.”

But does this evolutionary future breed more dangerous viruses?

This study argues yes. In a second experiment, unvaccinated and vaccinated chickens were infected with one of the five Marek’s disease strains, and then put into a second arena with a second set of unimmunized birds, known as sentinels. In particular, the team was interested in a middle-of-the-road strain called “595” and whether it would become hotter.

It did. The virus spread to sentinel birds nine days faster if it came from a vaccinated chicken versus an unvaccinated one. In addition, sentinels died faster when exposed to vaccinated chickens versus unvaccinated chickens.

“One way to look at that experiment is that shows vaccinating birds kills unvaccinated birds. The vaccination of one group of birds leads to the transmission of a virus so hot that it kills the other birds, said Read said. “If you vaccinate the mothers, the same thing happens. The offspring are protected by the maternal antibodies of the mother and that allows the virus in the chicks to transmit before they kill the host. So they transmit and kill the other individuals.”

This trend persisted when the team tried the experiment in a setting meant to simulate a commercial chicken farm.

“At the moment, the vaccines are working well enough, and you can vaccinate every bird,” Read said. “There are 20 billion birds on the planet at any time; the vast majority are Marek’s vaccinated.”

However, both Read and Osterrieder worry about what might happen if Marek’s continues to change or if its vaccines were to fail.

“If the virus continues to evolve, then it could be pretty devastating for the chicken industry, which is suffering quite a bit right now in the U.S. with the influenza virus,” Osterrieder said.

Like Marek’s vaccines, vaccines for avian influenza are leaky. For this reason, they’re banned from agricultural use in the U.S. and Europe. When bird flu breaks out in these western chicken populations, farmers must cull their herds. However, Southeast Asia uses these leaky vaccines, raising the possibility for virus evolution akin to what’s happened with Marek’s disease.

“In those situations, they’re creating the conditions where super hot avian influenza could emerge,” Read said. “Then the issues become what does that mean when it spills over into other flocks, into wildlife or into humans. Avian flu is the setting to watch for evolutionary problems down the line.”

Bird flu isn’t alone. The world’s first vaccine for malaria, which was recently approved by European Medicines Agency, is also leaky. Vaccines for HPV and whooping cough can leak too; however it is unknown if this scenario creates more dangerous viruses for each of these diseases.

“Our concern here, primarily and foremost, is whether this is going to happen with any of the vaccines that we give to people,” said molecular biology James Bull of the University of Texas Austin, who specializes in the evolution of viruses and bacteria. “But there is a lot we don’t know about how the scenario with Marek’s could apply to newer human vaccines.”

To test the imperfect vaccine hypothesis in humans, you would need monitor the vaccine response for either a large or isolated population for a long time. Doing this would allow a researcher to gauge how the vaccine interacts with the virus and if that relationship is evolving. Does the vaccine merely reduce symptoms, or does it also keep patients from getting infected and transmitting the virus?

Clinical trials for Ebola might be an arena for keeping an eye on this trend.

“It’s important that we pay close attention to the Ebola vaccine in the ongoing trials. We want to know if a person who has been vaccinated and comes in contact with Ebola, whether there is any virus replication in that person and whether that means there could be onward transmission,” Read said. “If those are leaky in humans, it would be potentially very disadvantageous as it could help establish an endemic.”

However, in the end, Read said, leakiness isn’t a strike against these vaccines, but more motivation to conduct surveillance of their effects after they exit clinical trials and enter the broader population. Take Marek’s disease for example.

“Even if this evolution happens, you don’t want to be an unvaccinated chicken,” Read said. “Food chain security and everything rests on vaccines. They are the most successful and cheapest public health interventions that we’ve ever had. We just need to consider the evolutionary consequences of these ones with leaky transmission.”
 
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Halloween Mike

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Winterfell

Like_It_Hot

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..But its very interesting because it feature a former founding member of CAQ.
Tout un argument... Ce qui est intéressant ce sont des faits qui appuient les actions. Comme le PM Legault veut écarter à tout prix une refermeture, si le prix à payer est si faible que de montrer un passeport sanitaire, que la grande majorité de la population a déjà, je suis tout à fait d'accord. La Chambres de Commerce, les partis d'opposition, la large majorité de la population sont d'accord. Rappelons que M. Legault et son équipe sont en bonne voie de gagner leur pari d'avoir 75% de la population vacciné d'ici le 1er septembre. Il n'y a donc plus de débat à avoir sur ce sujet. Si certains veulent perdre leur temps à poster des vidéos loufoques, libre à eux mais ils ne peuvent aller contre un mouvement qui fait consensus ici comme ailleurs.
 
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Halloween Mike

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Winterfell
Tout un argument... Rappelons que M. Legault et son équipe sont en bonne voie de gagner leur pari d'avoir 75% de la population vacciné d'ici le 1er septembre.

Bin non ces sur des gens important qui tourne le dos au narratif c'est des "recalcitrants" au narratif .

Legault aura peut-etre son 75 mais jte jure il aura jamais son 100% meme si y soude ma porte comme en chine. Je plierai pas meme si on m'enferme en house arrest !
 

gaby

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Legault n'a jamais dit qu'il recherchait 100%...ce qui serait mission impossible...lol....mais 75% constitue un minimum nécessaire pout l'immunité collective....et à cause de la virulence du variant DELTA sûrement que ce seuil sera dépassé pour atteindre
80-85 %....ce qui serait idéal......alors et oui il y aura toujours des récalcitrants qui pourront s'y soustraire si telle est leur volonté....et comme on dit...à leur risque et péril. ;)
 
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Like_It_Hot

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Je plierai pas meme si on m'enferme en house arrest !
Pauvre toi... Tu tes déjà enfermé dans tes idées et tu t'isoleras davantage en devant rester chez toi sans passeport vaccinal. Mais comme tu dis, c'est ton choix. Bonne quarantaine!
 
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Halloween Mike

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Winterfell
Legault n'a jamais dit qu'il recherchait 100%...ce qui serait mission impossible...lol....mais 75% constitue un minimum nécessaire pout l'immunité collective....
80-85 %....ce qui serait idéal......alors et oui il y aura toujours des récalcitrants
Legault dit de quoi pis ca change aussi vite que je change de bobette !

Aucune parole

Un jour c'est qqc le jour d'apres c'est autre chose. Defi 28 jours de genre 120 jours. Couvre feu d'un mois de 4 mois...

C'est un gros menteur !

Et faut arretez avec le mot "recalcitrant" ! On est pas "recalcitrant" ... c'est un choix eclairé ! Finale !! Une decision.
 
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Halloween Mike

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Winterfell
Pauvre toi... Tu tes déjà enfermé dans tes idées et tu t'isoleras davantage en devant rester chez toi sans passeport vaccinal. Mais comme tu dis, c'est ton choix. Bonne quarantaine!

Bah j'suis sur que la société s'adaptera... elle la fait pour la prohibition. C'est pas parce Legault nous empechais de voir nos chums cette hivers que j'ai suivis ca . Si faut je mette une croix sur le cinema pis les bars normal pour le moment correct. Ca m'empechera pas de vivre
 
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Chouin95

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Le passeport du contrôle signifie la fin d’une société moderne, libre et démocratique au Québec, nous sommes la risée de tous en Amérique du Nord et les impacts négatif sur le tourisme et l’économie seront catastrophique et irréversible.
Le gouvernement Legault instaure d’importantes mesures définitives à un problème temporaire sans offrir aucune option démocratique à la population, aucun vote, aucun référendum, aucune voix, aucun choix.
LA SOUMISSION À L’ÉTAT ET AUX MÉDIAS EST À UN NIVEAU DANGEREUX AU QUÉBEC, PARTOUT DANS LE MONDE LES GENS S’OPPOSENT ET S‘INDIGNENT MASSIVEMENT CONTRE LE PASSEPORT SANITAIRE.
 
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gallantca

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les impacts négatif sur le tourisme et l’économie seront catastrophique et irréversible.

La communauté des affaires est massivement favorable au passport vaccinale.

Le gouvernement Legault instaure d’importantes mesures définitives à un problème temporaire sans offrir aucune option démocratique à la population, aucun vote, aucun référendum, aucune voix, aucun choix.

T'as le choix de rester à la maison. Quelle tyrannie que tu peux pas aller dans un bar, pendant une épidémie, sans un vaccin. C'est épouvantable.

sans offrir aucune option démocratique à la population, aucun vote, aucun référendum, aucune voix, aucun choix.

T'as un choix démocratique. Vas voter quand ca sera le temps. PS la MAJORITÉ des gens sont pour le passport.
 
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Chouin95

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La communauté des affaires est massivement favorable au passport vaccinale.



T'as le choix de rester à la maison. Quelle tyrannie que tu peux pas aller dans un bar, pendant une épidémie, sans un vaccin. C'est épouvantable.



T'as un choix démocratique. Vas voter quand ca sera le temps. PS la MAJORITÉ des gens sont pour le passport.
Ça s’en va d’un bord pis de l’autre tes quotes mais personnellement je peux t’assurer que je refuse le passeport vaccinal et que heureusement mes horizons sont étendus plus loins qu’au Québec.
 
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mr_scorpio

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Le passeport du contrôle signifie la fin d’une société moderne, libre et démocratique au Québec, nous sommes la risée de tous en Amérique du Nord et les impacts négatif sur le tourisme et l’économie seront catastrophique et irréversible.
Le gouvernement Legault instaure d’importantes mesures définitives à un problème temporaire sans offrir aucune option démocratique à la population, aucun vote, aucun référendum, aucune voix, aucun choix.
LA SOUMISSION À L’ÉTAT ET AUX MÉDIAS EST À UN NIVEAU DANGEREUX AU QUÉBEC, PARTOUT DANS LE MONDE LES GENS S’OPPOSENT ET S‘INDIGNENT MASSIVEMENT CONTRE LE PASSEPORT SANITAIRE.
Un referendum, vote etc, na aucune logique quand ont est dans un etat d'urgence. Le gouv est la pour prendre les mesures quil pense necessaire. Ce nest pas le temps de demander a la population si ils sont daccord ou non. Cest le temps pour le gouv de prendre des decisions cest tout. . et moi j'estime que le passport vaccinale est temporaire jusqua ce que cette pandemie est juger fini.
 

gallantca

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Ça s’en va d’un bord pis de l’autre tes quotes mais personnellement je peux t’assurer que je refuse le passeport vaccinal et que heureusement mes horizons sont étendus plus loins qu’au Québec.
Une chance que tes horizons sont plus étendus qu'au Quebec, le féderal annonce qu'il faudra etre vacciné pour prendre l'avion. A moins que tes horizons sont l'Ontario
 

Chouin95

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Un referendum, vote etc, na aucune logique quand ont est dans un etat d'urgence. Le gouv est la pour prendre les mesures quil pense necessaire. Ce nest pas le temps de demander a la population si ils sont daccord ou non. Cest le temps pour le gouv de prendre des decisions cest tout. . et moi j'estime que le passport vaccinale est temporaire jusqua ce que cette pandemie est juger fini.
Je vais replacer les mots dans le bonne ordre…l’état d’urgence n’a aucune logique. À part bien sûr la logique de notre gouvernement pourri qui est d’avoir davantage de pouvoir et de contrôle sur la vie et les droits fondamentaux des gens.
 
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