The vaccine passport (QR code), a new debate.

[gallantca]

But the government is not at fault? Government is never held acccountable for anything but they are 100% at fault. Look at the hospitalizations in the last 15 years. The system is under resourced given the demand. Ppl got problems finding a family doctor, patients waiting months to get elective surgeries, months to get an appointment, patients out in the hallways. And we got a dirtbag like Fidel Trudope who rather send money to foreign countries and keeps on bringing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants making the healthcare system worse. Look at the real issue. See how other G7 countries were able to handle it vs Canada. Our cases are really low compared to say UK or France. Other countries were so quick to add temporary hospitals to address the increase of sick ppl whereas Canada could not even handle the small amount of cases we had (small compared to other G7 countries).

Absolutely the government is at fault for the state of healthcare. 100% they are accountable. Are we as a population holding them accountable ? No. So maybe it's 80/20.

We get elections promises for family doctors that immediately turn to provincial/federal feuding on who can spend it in the mos incompetent way. Trupode as you call him promises family doctors. From where is he going to pull them ? Out of his....

One recent study, of the top 11 western countries, Canada was 10th. The only worst than us, overall, was the US.

 

[CLOUD 500]

^^^^^
Trudope promised everyone will have access to a family doctor during the last election when he won. Look at the current state now... This year the premieres asked the Federal government for more funding for healthcare due to the covid crisis and he denied them but the sleazeball had millions of dollars available sent to foreign countries. Something is not right with this.

 

[gallantca]

^^^^^
Trudope promised everyone will have access to a family doctor during the last election when he won. Look at the current state now... This year the premieres asked the Federal government for more funding for healthcare due to the covid crisis and he denied them but the sleazeball had millions of dollars available sent to foreign countries. Something is not right with this.

I stopped after the first two words

 

[Francoquart]

I forgot to answer this question, sorry. Here is a picture


View attachment 15860 th

See those big bars on the left of hospitalizations ? Those are people occupying a bed that a person with Cancer, heart attack, knee surgery and others need. If they were vaccinated, that bar would one quarter of be the little green one on the right. Is this not obvious ?

I am not sure how this answers the question?! This shows that most of the cases are non vaccinated. It does not explain why the vaccinated should be away from the non vaccinated. If one thing it could be used to support the argument for taking the Vaccine, but not the passport. In fact, it would be reasonable to state that since the vaccinated are this much protected, then there is no need for them to avoid the non vaccinated.

The point is, no matter how much you decide to spend THERE ARE NO DOCTORS AND NURSES TO BUY !!!! So saying we should take the vaccine dollars and spend it on our healthcare systems gets us nothing in the short term, nothing to get us through this pandemic.)

You insist on bringing back the debate to whether the vaccine is a good choice or not. It is not the subject of the Debate, the PASSPORT is. The vaccine should be taken by choice, that is what at stake here. The freedom to choose what is done to you and your body, and stopping these divisive measures that will only lead to more control from the government. All the arguments given here are simply personal opinions that we have made based on our understandings, readings, believes, etc..

You have the right to believe that the Vaccine is the solution, but YOU do not have the right to punish me for not believing it, or believing in it partially. All what is said, is that the Vaccine is not The miracle thing, but it is being pushed as the only solution form the ones benefiting from it. How clearer can this be? Arguing the benefits of the Vaccine has become irrelevant. We believe differently, and those charters and figures provided by the same cartels benefiting for the Vaccine should be taken with a grain of salt. Before the USA invades Iraq, they have photo, charts, and intelligence that confirmed they had weapons' of mass destruction. We now know they were fabricated, but how many years later?

What I am trying to say is, maybe the best lies are built around some kind of truth? Maybe the numbers are correct but missing some other factors? I mean how can we be certain that all of this is accurate? Experts have been wrong many times over, in many many topics. All of this can be debated, but what cannot be debated is that this PASPORT IS in complete VIOLATION of my right to choose! Some things should not be touched, even amidst chaos and smoke, and our rights should fit in that category.

 

[gallantca]

I am not sure how this answers the question?! This shows that most of the cases are non vaccinated. It does not explain why the vaccinated should be away from the non vaccinated. If one thing it could be used to support the argument for taking the Vaccine, but not the passport. In fact, it would be reasonable to state that since the vaccinated are this much protected, then there is no need for them to avoid the non vaccinated.

The point is, no matter how much you decide to spend THERE ARE NO DOCTORS AND NURSES TO BUY !!!! So saying we should take the vaccine dollars and spend it on our healthcare systems gets us nothing in the short term, nothing to get us through this pandemic.)

You insist on bringing back the debate to whether the vaccine is a good choice or not. It is not the subject of the Debate, the PASSPORT is. The vaccine should be taken by choice, that is what at stake here. The freedom to choose what is done to you and your body, and stopping these divisive measures that will only lead to more control from the government. All the arguments given here are simply personal opinions that we have made based on our understandings, readings, believes, etc..

You have the right to believe that the Vaccine is the solution, but YOU do not have the right to punish me for not believing it, or believing in it partially. All what is said, is that the Vaccine is not The miracle thing, but it is being pushed as the only solution form the ones benefiting from it. How clearer can this be? Arguing the benefits of the Vaccine has become irrelevant. We believe differently, and those charters and figures provided by the same cartels benefiting for the Vaccine should be taken with a grain of salt. Before the USA invades Iraq, they have photo, charts, and intelligence that confirmed they had weapons' of mass destruction. We now know they were fabricated, but how many years later?

What I am trying to say is, maybe the best lies are built around some kind of truth? Maybe the numbers are correct but missing some other factors? I mean how can we be certain that all of this is accurate? Experts have been wrong many times over, in many many topics. All of this can be debated, but what cannot be debated is that this PASPORT IS in complete VIOLATION of my right to choose! Some things should not be touched, even amidst chaos and smoke, and our rights should fit in that category.

You absolutely have the right to not be vaccinated. I am completely against forced vaccination.
You absolutely have the right to essential services while unvaccinated. Medical attention, education, safety....all the basic human rights.
Even if I was 100% immune, I would continue to take steps if they ensured you could maintain your basic rights.

But you do not have the right to put other people at risk, while engaging in non essential services.

You put others at risk by increasing substantially the risk of occupying scarce medical resources. You are a higher risk. The government has a right to mitigate high risk situations and deny you access to non essential services.
You put others at risk since you are a more probable source of infection.

BTW, if this was such a flagrant abuse of rights, it would be sent to the supreme court very quickly.
The supreme court is not political, and most legal experts say the chance of your camp's success is almost nil.
I wish the supreme court would actual pre-emptively publish an opinion.

 

[Francoquart]

You absolutely have the right to not be vaccinated. I am completely against forced vaccination.
You absolutely have the right to essential services while unvaccinated. Medical attention, education, safety....all the basic human rights.
Even if I was 100% immune, I would continue to take steps if they ensured you could maintain your basic rights.

But you do not have the right to put other people at risk, while engaging in non essential services.

You put others at risk by increasing substantially the risk of occupying scarce medical resources. You are a higher risk. The government has a right to mitigate high risk situations and deny you access to non essential services.
You put others at risk since you are a more probable source of infection.

BTW, if this was such a flagrant abuse of rights, it would be sent to the supreme court very quickly.
The supreme court is not political, and most legal experts say the chance of your camp's success is almost nil.
I wish the supreme court would actual pre-emptively publish an opinion.

Lots of Vaccinated people do not mind being around no vaccinated, especially young people. Why deny them that right?
Denying me non essential services is not within the government rights. Vaccinated people that prefer not to mix with non vaccinated have that right, so a mid solution would be to create Vaccinated and non vaccinated areas when the space allows it
9and optional too). Or give the option to the business to choose themselves what they want? I am certain if most restaurants admits both, most of the Vaccinated will be ok with it.
The Term "Non essentials" is laughable. Where I am supposed to take my son for fun, to a hospital? Non essential for what exactly? Survival? We are now "animals" because we believe the Vaccine is not the only solution? Our rights are the groceries, parks, and walking around? I am sorry but my rights have been taken, and it is nobody's place to tell me otherwise. When my son asks me why we are denied, and I answer him that our government has decided so, do you think he will feel love or resentment to the Government?
The impact of this passport will be very deep in the future, it is an opportunistic and dividing policy.

 

[Onyxx]

Ta réponse au point 1 est entièrement éronnée. Il va falloir que tu explique ton argument avec des études scientifique récentes, car je peux te dire que la médecine n'est pas de ton coté. Le risque à la santé d'attrapper la covid vs recevoir le vaccin est incomparable. La pillule de viagra que le MERBist typique consomme comme des bonbons est 10x plus "dangereux" que le vaccin. D'un point de vue purement médical, le risque associé au vaccin mRNA est 0. Zero. Nada.

Une infection naturelle toute seule offre peu d'immunité comparée à 2 doses de vaccins. En faite, la meilleure protection semble consister d'une infection sévère + 1 dose de vaccin par la suite.

Pour ton point sur les jeunes, je te dirais de venir voir notre ICU à l'Hopital Maisonneuve-Rosemont. Nos patients hospitalisés ne sont plus des gens fragiles de 80 ans car cette population est vaccinée à 90+%, ce sont des adultes dans de 20-50 ans qui n'étaient pas vaccinés. Même des enfants se font hospitaliser pour la covid maintenant. C'est le cas dans tous les hopitaux du Québec.

Un autre point à considéré est la "longue covid", qui semble affecter les jeunes presque autant que les personnes plus âgés. Si tu es jeune, tu ne vas probablement pas mourir de la covid, mais il y a un risque relativement important de te retrouver malade pour des mois. Une étude récente venant de la Grande - Bretagne vient de démontrer que les vaccins réduit le risque de développer ce syndrome suite à une infection de plus de 50%.

L’étude scientifique la plus récente date de la fin du mois d’août et ils y en a plusieurs autres qui sont antérieures et qui contredisent ce que tu viens d’affirmer. Cet article en offre un résumé https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horo...ection-is-more-robust-than-the-covid-vaccines


Lien vers ces études consultables en ligne :

1 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3838993

2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4

3 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v3

4 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medicine/fulltext/S2666-3791(21)00203-2#

5 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.14.452381v1

6 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.12.443888v1

7 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262111v1

8 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8209951/pdf/RMV-9999-e2260.pdf

9 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00141-3/fulltext#

10 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21255670v1

11 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.11.21256578v1

12 https://rupress.org/jem/article/218...hly-functional-virus-specific-cellular-immune

13 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...ign=JRCN_1_LW01_CN_natureOA_article_paid_XMOL

14 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1

15 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.22.436441v1


On ne peut pas comparer ces pilules de viagra (on est d’ailleurs pas tous des consommateurs de ces pilules, moi le premier) avec un vaccin expérimental. Le risque associé au vaccin mRNA est de zéro mon … Cette manchette en est un petit exemple https://torontosun.com/news/provinc...o-hospital-for-vaccine-related-heart-problems

Les problèmes cardiaques ne sont qu’un des effets recensés par la pharmacovigilance, il y en a beaucoup d’autres et on ne connait pas non plus les effets à plus long terme de ces vaccins.

 

[gallantca]

I understand your frustration.

BTW, when I say the government has rights to remove access to non essential services, this is a special case, in special circumstances such as an epidemic. The supreme court would throw this out if those special conditions did not exist.

Would you accept being tested on a regular basis, so every 3 days in order to keep a valid passport ?
This is what Denmark did.

BTW, they recently lifted their passport use because their numbers are under control. I would be more comfortable if they said what their criteria is for lifting restrictions.

 

[Anna Bijou]

You absolutely have the right to not be vaccinated. I am completely against forced vaccination.
You absolutely have the right to essential services while unvaccinated. Medical attention, education, safety....all the basic human rights.
Even if I was 100% immune, I would continue to take steps if they ensured you could maintain your basic rights.

But you do not have the right to put other people at risk, while engaging in non essential services.​

You put others at risk by increasing substantially the risk of occupying scarce medical resources. You are a higher risk. The government has a right to mitigate high risk situations and deny you access to non essential services.
You put others at risk since you are a more probable source of infection.

BTW, if this was such a flagrant abuse of rights, it would be sent to the supreme court very quickly.
The supreme court is not political, and most legal experts say the chance of your camp's success is almost nil.
I wish the supreme court would actual pre-emptively publish an opinion.

Even if that were true, the argument is weak because the inconsistent, illogical way they have determined what is essential and what is not.

Again : no canoeing but go hunting in fishing

Also, public transit is rightfully an essential service. But how much risk do you think there is on a packed bus VS a small restaurant terasse with barrier between tables?

It is a punishment. It cannot in any way be passed off as a way to protect us.

Do you think politicians sit on a bus? They'll never be exposed to that risk. But who Will not have that choice? People who have no other means of transportation, cannot afford a car or a taxi and have to sit on a packed bus for extended periods of time twice a day.

So if one wants to insist that the passport is a protection against covid infection, we have to acknowledge that it is beneficial for certain people but not much for others, which means inequality.

Also, there is no doubt that will be challenged. That is not the opinion of all legal experts.

 

[Onyxx]

I understand your frustration.

BTW, when I say the government has rights to remove access to non essential services, this is a special case, in special circumstances such as an epidemic. The supreme court would throw this out if those special conditions did not exist.

Would you accept being tested on a regular basis, so every 3 days in order to keep a valid passport ?
This is what Denmark did.

BTW, they recently lifted their passport use because their numbers are under control. I would be more comfortable if they said what their criteria is for lifting restrictions.

Les tests c’est déjà beaucoup plus censé car ça peut éviter de contaminer des personnes plus fragiles qui ne disposent pas d’une bonne immunité naturelle (vieillesse, comorbidité, etc.) et cela n’implique pas une vaccination indirectement forcée. Cela par contre doit être temporaire et il faut déterminer une limite claire pour ne pas que ce système ne s’étire indéfiniment dans la durée.

 

[gallantca]

Les tests c’est déjà beaucoup plus censé car ça peut éviter de contaminer des personnes plus fragiles qui ne disposent pas d’une bonne immunité naturelle (vieillesse, comorbidité, etc.) et cela n’implique pas une vaccination indirectement forcée. Cela par contre doit être temporaire et il faut déterminer une limite claire pour ne pas que ce système ne s’étire indéfiniment dans la durée.

Le Denmark avait des tests gratuits, facilement accessible. Ta passe vaccinale était bonne 72 heures avec un test négatif.

Ils ont suspendu le passport car tout est sous contrôle.

 

[gallantca]

Even if that were true, the argument is weak because the inconsistent, illogical way they have determined what is essential and what is not.

Again : no canoeing but go hunting in fishing

Also, public transit is rightfully an essential service. But how much risk do you think there is on a packed bus VS a small restaurant terasse with barrier between tables?

It is a punishment. It cannot in any way be passed off as a way to protect us.

Do you think politicians sit on a bus? They'll never be exposed to that risk. But who Will not have that choice? People who have no other means of transportation, cannot afford a car or a taxi and have to sit on a packed bus for extended periods of time twice a day.

So if one wants to insist that the passport is a protection against covid infection, we have to acknowledge that it is beneficial for certain people but not much for others, which means inequality.

Also, there is no doubt that will be challenged. That is not the opinion of all legal experts.

I hate defending government decisions. I disagree with many of them but I do believe there is more good than bad and I hope they will evolve.

To your points :

To you canoeing/fishing example. They didn’t ban “canoeing” per se. They banned water sports with more than 1 athlete. Two people less than 6 feet apart breath hard during exercise and sitting in in a 14 foot aluminum boat, not breathing hard is not the same thing. I have association to two sporting federations. Federations made assessment and recommendations of what is safe and not. This was not a Arruda trying to figure how to piss off people. Don't ask me to defend the biodome vs museums. I prefer to think someone made a decision with some logic/data.

I am frustrated that the buses are packed but I don’t see how this fits in the passport debate. I walk. I have a car. But I hate parking.so I normally bus, walk, metro. Now I mostly walk. They can’t restrict public transit, it’s an essential service. My expectations would be to increase the number of buses. A bus is no safer than a terrasse. But a bus is essential, a terrasse is not.

Yes, the passport is favorable to those vaccinated. But everyone has equal access to it. That is not inequality.

It is not a way to protect us. It is a way to protect a vulnerable healthcare system and economy.

Yes, the legal experts will give lots of opinions. My experience is lawyers are really good at saying they have a strong case until you start paying them and ask for assurance you are going to win. Then they come up with 1000 reasons why it can go wrong. Don’t get me going on lawyers

 

[Anna Bijou]

It is not a way to protect us. It is a way to protect a vulnerable healthcare system and economy.

And the difference is..?

 

[gallantca]

And the difference is..?

You can rightfully argue they are the same. But the minute you say the government is there to protect you, people respond with, "I can protect myself I don't need the government interfering in my life". But as an individual I can only do a small part to protect the health care system and I expect the government to do everything in it's power to protect it.

Let's switch positions. If you are Premier, what would you do ?

You have, let's call it 20%, of the population unvaccinated
You have a variant that is extremely transmissible.
You have data from places like the UK showing the majority of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated.
You can do pretty accurate calculations that in October, hospitals are going to bust again.

What do you do ?

Let it happen knowing that you preserved everyone's rights ?
You shut down things to everyone equally ?
You try to fix things that have been broken for years before then ? (Health care, public transport, old folks homes)
You hold a public debate in September which we will know the outcome in October ?

I'd love to hear other solutions.

 

[Halloween Mike]

We all agree.

All of my family, friends, SP I see, everyone is fully vaccinated.

And all have and will have their vaccination passport.

Me, no vaccines, no meetings.

The only thing I hope is that you tell the SP that you want to meet.

I tried to read as many replies as possible since my last post, won't quote it all but this is the kind of message that seem to come out the most. So you admited being over 65 y.o and having comorbidity. So basically due to YOUR situation, we should be penalized for you. You know that theatre have special matinee showing for women with young children? Its obviously a great thing to have children but none of us want to ear a baby cry while we watch a movie, and some of these mothers can't afford to have someone take care of the child or whatever. Having this special presentation for them is great. They could do the same way for older folks or hell even for unvaccinated. I was speaking with someone they other day and mentioned that at least in the segregation era of the US black folks may had to sit in a special section of the bus but they were allowed in it. Right now we as unvaccinated as just simply not allowed at all.

I know Montreal is different but 75% of the times i got to cinemas it was nowhere near 50% full, even pre-covid. After covid it got so ridiculously low. Once i watched a movie alone... sometimes we are 10-12 for a full room..

In restaurants, yes sure i don't go a lot into fancy expensive restaurants but all the local ones in my towns seem to be at 10% capacity when i go, even at peak eating hours. Thats pre-passeport too.

Now personally i don't really care to eat in a restaurant, especially in summer. I can simply get a takeout and eat at the park beside the restaurant. In winter i can have it delivered. But it still feel like a stupid thing to me to restrict those places.

Right now it seem some of you guys are totally brainswashed and think as unvaccinated we are "walking bombs" or something (read that a few pages ago). Like seriously? Covid is spreading for roughly 2 weeks, there is basically around 5000 active cases (by Sept 2) and thats for the whole province, millions of peoples... Obviously every time i saw an SP the past 2 years i taught "what if she met someone who had it 1 or 2 days ago and was carrying it right now without knowing" , i said it many times, i don't want to catch it, im not running after it, but the risk % was so low i accepted it. I actually was more fearfull of the Montreal metro than the SP risk... but had to use it and it became an acceptable risk.

In my day to day life i meet so few peoples that MY risk of catching it is so low... If we have to get EVERYBODY vaccinated or infected at some point for herb immunity i may very well be one of the last person to get it or may never actually do. But if i do then so be it... hopefully i recover. I measured all the risk/rewards of the vaccine and covid and came to the conclusion that i just don't need it at my age and situation.

But as i said many times even if i did took it, i would still refuse this concept of governement tracking and power push to require ID cards everywhere and electronic codes. It is intrusive and wrong on so many levels.

Yes sadly it seem the media and gov has do such a good job to brainwash peoples in thinking unvaccinated are "recalcitrant" and bad peoples refusing to do their part and blablabla that some of the population is adopting this way of thinking. Surely does not help when TVA show what it did was it yesterday or the day beforre? Basically they try to find the worst of the unvaccinated and "showcase" them to make us all look bad. So they can convince peoples that are unvaccinated folks are just nutjobs conspiracy theorist uneducated and such... when its far from the truth.

Anyway, to answer your initial question, i don't know when i will meet a new escort again. I am thinking of meeting just regulars in the near futur sporadically and they don't care about my vaccination status.

 

[just some guy]

Agree with HM,
I'm double vaccinated and most likely will be triple vaccinated soon, but the passport idea is so bad on many levels as most things, it starts off being used for limited circumstances and slowly it gets applied to all facets of life. The Quebec government has already given business the right to request the passport for its employees for example. What about higher education ? Who knows how far this thing can go. There is going to be a lot of frustration and resentment building up in society over the loss of ones privacy, rights and freedoms .

 

[sene5hos]

Anyway, to answer your initial question, i don't know when i will meet a new escort again. I am thinking of meeting just regulars in the near futur sporadically and they don't care about my vaccination status.

These are women who have no respect for the people around them. It's only the money that is important, they don't care about infecting themselves or infecting others.

If you want to meet a new escort ask Anna Bijou.

HM, consult the doctors who work in the hospitals and they will tell you that the people hospitalized now are all under 60 years old. In addition, people who have 1 comorbidity are at greater risk.

 

[AlmostMidaged]

We’re probably going to have more cases than last year before 2022. I wonder what BIG BROTHER is going to say and do at that point. Who are they going to blame? Will they ever bother to address the deficiencies in our medical infrastructure? Hospitals are continuously short staffed for no other reason than bureaucracy and poor policy.

This article is from 3 days ago...

Israel’s COVID-19 success unravels amid case surge

Israel has long been a world leader in the COVID-19 vaccination efforts. However, the country now sees a record number of infections and Tel Aviv faces...

www.google.com

Covid is not going away in Canada. There will always be a new variant. That’s the nature of the beast. Are you okay with the vaccine passport existing forever? How about a curfew and bi-monthly lockdowns? Or how about indefinite isolation to your place of residence besides essential departures. That okay to?

 

[gallantca]

How does taking a cheap at someone who raises valid questions promote debate ?

Tell me, is your SP exclusive to you ?

 

[CLOUD 500]

^^^^^
@Patron

[...]

As for the rest of your post that is because government has gotten too big. Government over reach everywhere. Lets put it this way due to emergency powers granted to the government for covid they will always try to make an emergency to keep the power. I have learned that society is the problem. Freedom seems to scare them because then they will be responsible for their own actions. They want some government overlord protecting them and providing them with government welfare.