Wal-Mart close unionized car center in Gatineau: lack of respect!

[metoo4]

...
A perfect example is the Japanese automakers in their North American plants. They typically pay the same rates or more than the unionized Big Three and have better working conditions. They are almost as vigilant as WalMart in keeping unions out of their factories.

That goes with what I'm saying. They don't need to be vigilant really: nobody is unhappy! No need for unions if there's no problems. An employee who's happy without a union won't try to get union in, unless the employer doesn't treat him right then, the union is looming in the back.

As I said, it's not always money! And it's not productivity either! No matter if you're unionized or not, an oil change can't take more than 20-30 minutes. This is a known amount of time. We're not talking about guys in a cubicule, with a computer, who's doing phone calls to customers, we're talking about a quantified manual labor who can easily be evaluated.

 

[Possum Trot]

I'm not disagreeing with you metoo4, I'm just speculating that Walmart is regarding this as something of far greater importance than just their automotive service business.

 

[mark_sab]

walmart

to understand the psychie of the walmart corporation one must understand it's roots.
they began in the middle of america from a family who still controls the direction of employee relations along with most everything else involved in running a giant retailer.
the family (walton's) are real middle american farm folks. this means they are republican and anti-union to the bone. it is personal with them. they are extreemly anti-union.

it does not suprise me at all to read about the store closeings in quebec.
but... it has less to do with profit than some of you might think.

 

[Ben Dover]

Je n'ai jamais dit que j'étais séparatiste

If you never said you were a separatist, I'm very sorry for mislabelling you as one. Certainly anyone who is NOT a separatist, like you and me, would stand the chance of being offended by such a label. I do not want to offend you.

I mean who in their right mind would want to be associated with a massive failure and a monumental waste of time and resources like the Quebec separatist movement, unless they were a separatist, which you and I are clearly not.

I think Quebec workers should show businesses like Walmart that this is a good place to open up shop and make money. The current tactics might make Quebec less inviting to US and other international (or Canadian) companies who do not already have a presence here. Separatist politics, corruption and union issue have already contributed to many businesses leaving Quebec, or never coming here in the first place. If we could fix these things, it would be better for everyone.

BD

 

[metoo4]

BD, that's "a-plat-ventrisme" at it's best what you're saying! Come on Wal-Mart! We'll forgo all our dignity and let your steam roller do the job! After all, profits is all that count! Who cares about peoples' rights and dignity?

Let's remove minimum wage while we're at it! Of course, some peoples will take any jobs at any salary so, they just have to take jobs that pay more if they want to live better! Who cares if they can't eat and have a decent place to live in? Who cares if they just can't hold higher paid jobs for whatever reason! Survival of the fittest is the game!

This is ridiculous! It's better IMHO to pay a bit more and knowing money is not only going up the chain but instead is redistributed horizontally a little bit. I'd rather see my neighbour living in a decent place and his kids eat properly than seeing some multi-millionnaire having so much money he doesn't know what he'll buy next to spend it. If this is socialism then, that's the way it should be!

We survived perfectly well before Wal-Mart started to invade our markets I don't see why we wouldn't survive if they leave. The population is still there, Wal-Mart or not so, the money is still there to be made by whoever won't act like a predator towards it's employees, trying to bend or blatantly ignore laws.

 

[Ben Dover]

This is ridiculous! It's better IMHO to pay a bit more and knowing money is not only going up the chain but instead is redistributed horizontally a little bit. I'd rather see my neighbour living in a decent place and his kids eat properly than seeing some multi-millionnaire having so much money he doesn't know what he'll buy next to spend it. If this is socialism then, that's the way it should be!

We survived perfectly well before Wal-Mart started to invade our markets I don't see why we wouldn't survive if they leave. The population is still there, Wal-Mart or not so, the money is still there to be made by whoever won't act like a predator towards it's employees, trying to bend or blatantly ignore laws.

So...... I guess you don't buy any products made in China, since their workers are underpaid and treated unfairly. I think if someone even mentioned a union in China they might "disappear" for a long time.

I have a feeling you might own a couple products that were made in China.

Or, is it ok as long as it's not here?

BD

 

[Regular Guy]

It is and has always been about balance between Capitalism and labour. As we all know the unions were born out of the excesses of capitalism during the industrial revolution. Without unions there would be a hell of a lot more Bob Cratchetts running around. As with most of the institutions which are in balance in our society there is rarely equilibrium. The pendulum swings in both directions but, in a shaky fashion, always manages to ensure that the universe is unfolding as it should. We should never lose sight of the fact that capitalism is a tool we have accepted to be the optimum route to the good life. It is, and remains the best system we have devised to manage our economic lives. The checks and balances provided by unions helps us to ensure that this system endures. By removing the checks and balances as Wal Mart has attempted to do, oddly enough does not promote the success of our capitalist lifestyle, but indeed threatens its very existence and the lifestyle we have all come to enjoy and find fulfilling. This is not to say that the unions are without blame here. They also often function outside of the parameters set by their “raison d'etre”. So the everlasting sparring will go on. And perhaps that is how it should be. And we should definitely not support any and all attempts to short circuit the process as Wal Mart is doing.

 

[eastender]

Reality Check

BD, that's "a-plat-ventrisme" at it's best what you're saying! Come on Wal-Mart! We'll forgo all our dignity and let your steam roller do the job! After all, profits is all that count! Who cares about peoples' rights and dignity?

Let's remove minimum wage while we're at it! Of course, some peoples will take any jobs at any salary so, they just have to take jobs that pay more if they want to live better! Who cares if they can't eat and have a decent place to live in? Who cares if they just can't hold higher paid jobs for whatever reason! Survival of the fittest is the game!

This is ridiculous! It's better IMHO to pay a bit more and knowing money is not only going up the chain but instead is redistributed horizontally a little bit. I'd rather see my neighbour living in a decent place and his kids eat properly than seeing some multi-millionnaire having so much money he doesn't know what he'll buy next to spend it. If this is socialism then, that's the way it should be!

We survived perfectly well before Wal-Mart started to invade our markets I don't see why we wouldn't survive if they leave. The population is still there, Wal-Mart or not so, the money is still there to be made by whoever won't act like a predator towards it's employees, trying to bend or blatantly ignore laws.

Metoo4,

Fact is that all the problems you list existed before Wal-Mart arrived on the scene.

As for predatory behavior look at the legislation supported by unions that inhibits the free movement of skilled labour from province to province. This has the same or greater impact than Wal-Mart as an unemployed worker is a hardship for society and their family suffers. Contrast this with the USA and the "right to work states" where skills and jobs are alot more portable.

Finally look at the wastage in the various "blue collar" municipal jobs. The taxpayers are overpaying for municipal services effetively reducing their quality of life at the same time.

As for the workers at Wal-Mart, especially their auto service centers, fact of the matter is they are far from the brightest and the best auto mechanics, technicians, managers, clerks,etc. They have found their level and should be paid accordingly.

 

[EagerBeaver]

As for the workers at Wal-Mart, especially their auto service centers, fact of the matter is they are far from the brightest and the best auto mechanics, technicians, managers, clerks,etc. They have found their level and should be paid accordingly.

I completely agree with this statement. It's the old "too many Chiefs and not enough Indians" syndrome that is usually provoked by labor unions. We have too many low level employees of businesses who don't accept that they are low level and have a sense of entitlement as to pay, benefits and to determine the agenda of their department. Your system in Canada, with all due respect, encourages a systemic sense of entitlement. However, I think the marketplace ultimately determines what you are entitled to and if that determination is low wages for what you are doing, then you should be paid low wages or try to get a better job if you are so qualified.

In this case, the marketplace, the free market economy, has spoken.

 

[metoo4]

Ben Dover, we're far from China here, geographically and ideologically. What's underpaid and unfair here might be totally normal elsewhere. It's a question of culture. Now, why do we see some Chinese workers as underpaid and unfairly treated? Because here our workers are paid more and treated better. Why do we pay our workers more and threat them better? Because we respect they are human beings and desserve to make enough to have a life instead of just surviving. They also desserve the right to be treated as human being who exist outside their jobs. Do we want to revert back to the way China workers are treated? I don't think so.

EastEnder, true the problem existed before Wal-Mart. But Wal-Mart is pushing the insult to the point they try to impose THEIR WAYS, no matter what, bending the laws and pushing the limits as much as possible, using their weight to blackmail employees elsewhere into rejecting unions. The labor lawsin Québec existed long before Wal-Mart entered the picture and Wal-Mart couldn't not be aware of them. If Wal-Mart didn't like these laws, all they had to do was to avoid coming to Québec. Now they are here, they have to abide by the laws and customs or get out totally, not just selectively where intimidation failed.

The only sector in Québec where some rules prevent workers to move-around is construction. Teachers, health workers, name it, they can move around quite freely after some formalities. Even with construction, things are getting better. I really don't think any Wal-Mart employee, no matter if unionised or not, will be prevented to work anywhere in Canada so, this subject is mute in this discussion.

As far as wastage done by municipal administration, it's true! It's also true it relates to unions. But Wal-Mart employees aren't in the same ball game in any way or form.

You're right about auto-centers employees at Wal-Mart not always being the most skilled (Canadian Tire is worst!) . But their salaries don't compare to those in dealership and such either, with or without union, and I know for a fact some dealership employees are not better if not worst. But why is Wal-Mart attracting less skilled employees? Maybe lower salaries and they way they are treated are involved?

You're saying "They have found their level and should be paid accordingly.". Maybe true. But... When you look what these peoples gained with the union, it's not much different than what a bunch of other non-unionised Wal-Mart have. The problem Wal-Mart see is UNION, not salaries, not work conditions per se. What they see is it will be harder to bully these employee and treat them like they owned them. Now with a union, they would have to pay attention.

Wal-Mart offered to relocate the affected employees, probably to lessen the attention they get by the government and population. I would be interested to find-out, in about a year, how many of these employees will still be there... How many will get fired for "unsatisfactory performance" or simply leave because of the harrasment they'll suffer... Talk about retaliation...

 

[Possum Trot]

EastEnder, true the problem existed before Wal-Mart. But Wal-Mart is pushing the insult to the point they try to impose THEIR WAYS, no matter what, bending the laws and pushing the limits as much as possible, using their weight to blackmail employees elsewhere into rejecting unions. The labor lawsin Québec existed long before Wal-Mart entered the picture and Wal-Mart couldn't not be aware of them. If Wal-Mart didn't like these laws, all they had to do was to avoid coming to Québec. Now they are here, they have to abide by the laws and customs or get out totally, not just selectively where intimidation failed.

I still don't think you have made a case for why they aren't entitled to close whatever business they want to. You can't force someone to keep a business open. WalMart has the righ to open or close their business and the workers have the right to work there or not. This is still a free Province and it's not run by the unions totally......at least not yet.

I think if you told WalMart that if they wanted to stay in Quebec they would have to be unionized they would close everything in a heartbeat. Instead they are following due process under provincial law and the workers are somewhat caught in the middle. The Union typically uses intimidation to get the workers to sign cards to force a union and the company uses the rather tough tactic of closing everything that gets unionized .....as is their total right. The only group that has limited rights in a union shop is the employee who cannot choose to work and NOT be a member of the union.

 

[Ben Dover]

Ben Dover, we're far from China here, geographically and ideologically. What's underpaid and unfair here might be totally normal elsewhere. It's a question of culture. Now, why do we see some Chinese workers as underpaid and unfairly treated? Because here our workers are paid more and treated better. Why do we pay our workers more and threat them better? Because we respect they are human beings and desserve to make enough to have a life instead of just surviving. They also desserve the right to be treated as human being who exist outside their jobs. Do we want to revert back to the way China workers are treated? I don't think so.

"it's a questions of culture." A question of culture? Are you serious?

I'm no expert on Chinese history, but I am pretty sure that working 17 hours a day, six days a week in a smelter for $5 is not an honored and beloved part of thier culture and heritage.

I don't like to say it but your answer is two-faced at best. You seem to feel it's fine for Walmart to sell goods made by what would be slave labor by "our" standards while saying we need to give even more to our lowest paid workers (who are likely no more skilled than those in China) that already enjoy all the relatively cushy benefits that Quebec provides.

I'd rather see some more worker rights in China, which would also help level the playing field globally.

BD

 

[eastender]

Chinese Workers

Ben Dover, we're far from China here, geographically and ideologically. What's underpaid and unfair here might be totally normal elsewhere. It's a question of culture. Now, why do we see some Chinese workers as underpaid and unfairly treated? Because here our workers are paid more and treated better. Why do we pay our workers more and threat them better? Because we respect they are human beings and desserve to make enough to have a life instead of just surviving. They also desserve the right to be treated as human being who exist outside their jobs. Do we want to revert back to the way China workers are treated? I don't think so.

EastEnder, true the problem existed before Wal-Mart. But Wal-Mart is pushing the insult to the point they try to impose THEIR WAYS, no matter what, bending the laws and pushing the limits as much as possible, using their weight to blackmail employees elsewhere into rejecting unions. The labor lawsin Québec existed long before Wal-Mart entered the picture and Wal-Mart couldn't not be aware of them. If Wal-Mart didn't like these laws, all they had to do was to avoid coming to Québec. Now they are here, they have to abide by the laws and customs or get out totally, not just selectively where intimidation failed.

The only sector in Québec where some rules prevent workers to move-around is construction. Teachers, health workers, name it, they can move around quite freely after some formalities. Even with construction, things are getting better. I really don't think any Wal-Mart employee, no matter if unionised or not, will be prevented to work anywhere in Canada so, this subject is mute in this discussion.

As far as wastage done by municipal administration, it's true! It's also true it relates to unions. But Wal-Mart employees aren't in the same ball game in any way or form.

You're right about auto-centers employees at Wal-Mart not always being the most skilled (Canadian Tire is worst!) . But their salaries don't compare to those in dealership and such either, with or without union, and I know for a fact some dealership employees are not better if not worst. But why is Wal-Mart attracting less skilled employees? Maybe lower salaries and they way they are treated are involved?

You're saying "They have found their level and should be paid accordingly.". Maybe true. But... When you look what these peoples gained with the union, it's not much different than what a bunch of other non-unionised Wal-Mart have. The problem Wal-Mart see is UNION, not salaries, not work conditions per se. What they see is it will be harder to bully these employee and treat them like they owned them. Now with a union, they would have to pay attention.

Wal-Mart offered to relocate the affected employees, probably to lessen the attention they get by the government and population. I would be interested to find-out, in about a year, how many of these employees will still be there... How many will get fired for "unsatisfactory performance" or simply leave because of the harrasment they'll suffer... Talk about retaliation...

Metoo4,

You are generalizing way beyond reasonable bounds.

Chinese workers - talk to anyone who imports from China and you will find how much the conditions have improved. 40 - hour week, benefits, salary increases. All in less than a generation. Big problem right now in China is that workers have returned to the provinces from Beijing after the Olympics because they earned to much before the Olympics.

Historically Quebec has some of the worst labour conditions and slowest reforms in labour history. Example the asbestos strikes and the union strikes / demonstrations in the 1970's occured generations after comparable situations
elsewhere in North America. Do a time line on the history of coal miners and their labour situation in the USA, the auto workers and the Rouge strikes against Ford, the Regina and Winnipeg strikes out west all pre-dated labour strife in Quebec.

As for your comment about culture. Would you by any chance be referring to the culture fostered by the Catholic church and Maurice Duplessis? All "pure laine" who exploited and sold the Quebec workers into virtual slavery for generations. No church or governor / premier anywhere in North America were in he pockets of big business as much as the Catholic church or Maurice Duplessis were here in Quebec.

Teachers and nurses are professionals or semi-professionals not "workers".
Workers and to an extent professionas or semi-professionals are inhibited by their lack of language fluency from taking their skills elsewhere. Another burden, same result.