Just curious about this.
Does the montreal police have enough men to handle this?
How about the outcall situation?
Does the montreal police have enough men to handle this?
How about the outcall situation?
Will bill c-36 be enacted in Montreal?
- Thread starter ericladd83
- Start date
It's a Federal law so yes. Will Quebec Police force vigorously enforce it? Doubtful. So much things need to be approved by the attorney general and if not a Judge... A real pain in the ass. However, C-36 makes the penalties for trafficking and having sex with children much more severe. I congratulate the Harper Government for that, no more wishy-washy stuff - you abuse a child, you serve a non-negotiable period of incarceration. :thumb:
I bet you in the beginning of C-36, there will be some enforcement of the new law. The government's theory is if they put fear into most buyers of sexual services, the demand for sexual services will dry up. So it goes to reason that the Fed government will at least try to put pressure on municipalities - at least the larger ones like Montreal and Toronto - to run some stings, do some investigations, pick out some agencies to harass and possibly attempt to indict, just for the media attention. Plus, the media will be waiting to see how C-36 is enforced.
I see one very large problem with this new law and its approach, which is modeled from the Swedish law.
Couldn't johns be subjected to the possibility of extortion or blackmail? Of course, it would be illegal for a SP to extort or blackmail a buyer of Sex services, but when it is illegal for one party of the transaction, and not illegal for the other side, the party for whom it is illegal is at an extreme disadvantage. Service can be very bad. Where do you complain? You are not going to complain to her body guard. Agencies may be less inclined to comment. After all, they will be part of the illegal component in C-36.
Of course, there will be honest and good providers who want returning customers. But I think it will be a chore to find them as time passes.
These are just my thoughts. I don't know how accurate my perception is?
I see one very large problem with this new law and its approach, which is modeled from the Swedish law.
Couldn't johns be subjected to the possibility of extortion or blackmail? Of course, it would be illegal for a SP to extort or blackmail a buyer of Sex services, but when it is illegal for one party of the transaction, and not illegal for the other side, the party for whom it is illegal is at an extreme disadvantage. Service can be very bad. Where do you complain? You are not going to complain to her body guard. Agencies may be less inclined to comment. After all, they will be part of the illegal component in C-36.
Of course, there will be honest and good providers who want returning customers. But I think it will be a chore to find them as time passes.
These are just my thoughts. I don't know how accurate my perception is?
You are 100% spot on, and extortion and blackmail, not to mention lousy service, have to be the biggest fears. In the US we don't have national prostitution laws, and while some police departments have policies that target primarily johns, this asymmetrical law (not policy) wouldn't fly nationally or even at a state level for the reasons you mentioned. The threat of extortion invites criminal enterprise (mob) so LE is trading one problem for another.
How do police respond if an escort, in cahoots with a boyfriend, calls up and says she was solicited? When you think about it, there might be more upside from extortion, especially if groups of girls work together and rotate. I am in disbelief this law is so close to passing
The prostitution laws in the US are effed up but US prosecutors and state attorneys general would have a conniption over this law. And the fact that girls could give out handbills in densely populated areas like NYC advertising their services would cause residents to hit the roof
My big question is: Do strip clubs still permit lap dancing upon passage?
No need to enforce this law on a large scale. LE just needs highly publicized couple of cases to scare people (Ebola syndrome). Then guys from the south of the border would be reluctant to hobby in Montreal until some smoke has cleared…With the total client pool shrinking, the prices will go up and the pool of ladies will go down, which would again lead price to rise …etc. Probably it was the intention of this law in the first place.
The federal government has no means to pressure municipalities nor the municipal police forces.
Why would anything change? We had a few cases. A Laval maire experienced it last year. He had to quit office but the people who extorted him got convicted. Extorsion is a dangerous game. I see no reason why it would increase.
That doesn't make sense. When demand goes down, competition goes up and prices go down. I'm not sure the pool of worker would go down either. This is still the best paying job for all of those doing it, and often it is the only reasonable job available. Add the fact that they cannot be prosecuted and it may even convince more to join the trade.
However, in Sweden, Swedish women are seen as more safe by clients and they can charge more then foreigner. This is because police focus on ethnic people and immigrants. Street workers who are left with fewer and worse clients have to drop their prices and accept things they would not before.
So the situation can have very different impact on the different categories of workers. The overall effect can be impossible to predict.
Because when something you are doing is illegal, you are open to threats, thievery, etc.
Let me tell you one of my experiences at a massage parlor in Florida more than 20 years ago.
I was at a massage parlor and really didn't know what the rules were. It was my first time there. I had a great time after the girl solicited me. I had a gfe experience with her.
So the next week I go to another place. The girl chats me up and asks me what I would like. I ask her what does she have to offer. She said everything costs amount $ and she mentions what we can do.
So I give her the $ (I forget the amount. It does not matter). Very cute girl. She does nothing. She is massaging me. I move to kiss her. She tells me to stop. I said but you said we can ... She says "we can't. That's illegal." I get up and say What?
She says in FL prostitution is illegal and I am breaking the law if I expect. She may have to call the police. And her voice gets louder. All the sudden her guard, a tall black guy comes into the room and asks if there is a problem.
I then realize it was a set up. I told him there was no problem, as he asks me to leave.
Well, can you see there may be a problem with some guys. They may try to fight the guy or worse yet come back armed and fight. I don't think many on here would. But in reality she / they robbed me. But because it is against the law, I can't do anything about it.
I think you, gugu, are naive if everything will be as usual after C-36. When one party has an advantage, they usually take it.
I this business it does… Lady would stay in the business if she can make some minimum. When this is not met the price goes up… than she will quit or relocate if it does not help… If people in particular town stop eating bananas than you would still find them in the store but the price would go up to recover shipping cost etc. as these do not depend much on the amount of bananas sold….
In your story, she broke the law by offering sexual services. After you left you could have gone to the police. Said you asked for a legal massage and she offered you sexual services. This is not enough to incriminate yourself or even the masseuse, but they would have an excuse to go ''investigate'' them, while not really having any reason to charge you.
As for us, prostitution was already criminalized before C-36. Most clients and most workers had no idea what the law actually was. They just new they could be arrested by police. It's going to be the same as before.
These are not bananas. Sex has no shipping or manufacturing cost. Woman have an unlimited supply of sex and are saying ''hey, I could sell that!''
These are people trying to make a living. They have kids to feed, students loan to pay, nice clothes they want to buy and little other profitable jobs available. Like I said, even cutting prices 30% this would still be the best job for most sex workers currently active and few would go to McDonald's instead.
It's hard to know for sure, but my impression is that the market is already very competitive with the offer slightly higher than the demand.
Around this time last year, Montreal mayor Denis Coderre announced publicly that he wanted to get rid of all erotic massage parlors in the city. Today, a year later, all of the respectable ones I am familiar with that advertise here are still around and seem to be doing fine.
I expect a similar outcome after the passage of C-36 and all the noise dies down. In practice I think the city has more urgent investigations than to set up a task force or a large sting operation to arrest horny average joes who paid a consensual adult money to play with their peepeees for an hour. Kind of like driving a bit over the speed limit or not wearing your seatbelt.. yes it's illegal but if you aren't being a menace to society I doubt they will bother actually making an arrest. Just my guess.
I expect a similar outcome after the passage of C-36 and all the noise dies down. In practice I think the city has more urgent investigations than to set up a task force or a large sting operation to arrest horny average joes who paid a consensual adult money to play with their peepeees for an hour. Kind of like driving a bit over the speed limit or not wearing your seatbelt.. yes it's illegal but if you aren't being a menace to society I doubt they will bother actually making an arrest. Just my guess.
No, I broke the law when I gave her money expecting sexual services after she solicited me. So I was just as illegal as her.
But in C-36, the SP who solicits and keeps the $ will be in the clear. The john will be breaking the law for "paying" for it. Which begs the question if he never gets "it", will he have broken the law? That's for legal scholars to determine. I say probably because his intent is to have sex.
As for the existing law, the current law does not cover the outcall situation where the SP visits the client.
The client's home or hotel room is not a bawdy house (many women working in one place), and solicitation is illegal in public only. So by defacto, the outcall situation is legal. Everything else was illegal, including what the agency owner was doing, but the police didn't care about them.
I know, but you don't have to tell the police that. It's your word against her's. You're just an average guy and she's the one running a suspect business. She has much more to lose by attracting police attention. If police keep hearing stuff concerning that person they will start a case. They might just be itching for any excuse to bust that place.
My point is that they can rip off unexperienced clients now and then, but it's self-defeating in the long run. Of course, most clients would not feel comfortable going to the police, but they would certainly report it on forums nowadays. Also, even in perfectly legal activities, naive clients get ripped-off all the time. Even if it had been completely legal she could still have done the same thing. Unless you sign a detailed contract there is no proof of what the negotiations were.
That's not their modus operandi to be legitimate. They are not interested in operating in traditional massage services nor prostitution so they do a third option. Under the guise of prostitution, they rip guys off. Most guys are going to cave like I did because they are afraid what the police will do to them / me. Or it may end up in the papers and our employers will know what extra curricular activities we do. So they get away with it. When business falls they will move on to the next location, etc. like gypsies.
When they do have a brave soul who complains to the police, they will give their defense and say we are legitimate massage place. We don't solicit. Of course LE can put an undercover in operation and the girl will solicit him, and the scam will be uncovered.
But with C-36, what's to stop a smart ass girl from advertising in backpage or handing out fliers and doing the same to unsuspecting customers? She won't be liable under C-36. That's my original point. She will take as much money as she can and move on when it gets too hot or her calls are too low. Meanwhile, criminally she's not breaking the prostitution law. She's a victim under this screwy law.
I know this could happen and it already does. Also like I said there is nothing preventing her to do that even if prostitution was legal. I don't think it will become commonplace much more than now. It sounds pretty risky in the long run; not every client is as mild-mannered as you and I.
Also according to the new law SP now need to be rescued and this can be even more of a hassle to them as legal prosecutions. Police in Montreal care more about trafficking then consensual activities. Claiming that you suspect a woman is under control of a pimp can be more damaging than claiming that a man proposed to buy sex from an escort.
You are correct there are scams in legal activities. However, look at the situation. Making prostitution illegal for one party only will make more scam artists brazen to scam even more. It is just how human nature works. If people think others are hesitant to report someone who scammed them because it will implicate the victim, more individuals will think of the scam and try it. There's a better chance they will get away with it.
I know that there are laws on the book that are written and hardly ever enforced because the costs of enforcing them outweigh the benefits of enforcement. As you say, there are more pressing issues concerning prostitution e.g. trafficking, under-aged prostitution, etc.
However, think of the mindset that this law was written. The authors think this law will end prostitution, all prostitution. Of course, we know that is improbable. However, let's just say whenever the next election is, the next mayor Montreal is against prostitution and it happens that this person is well liked and the voter's like other aspects of this new mayor and really don't care about prostitution one way or the other. So this mayor busts newspapers, websites, agencies, and sets up stings like the Long Island sting where more than 100 upstanding citizens were arrested. All in the name of wiping out prostitution, no matter if it involves consenting adults or trafficking, etc. It's the law. The head politician can choose to enforce the law. You just don't know what future this law has in store. It's on the books. Some politicians in Canada in the future will try to enforce it. You are thinking in practical terms. Many politicians do not, or this law would never have been written.
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