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Thread: Real talk : how many girls are mistreated?

  1. #1

    Real talk : how many girls are mistreated?

    We often hear that "escorts are victims" from the medias and politicians. In my several years of being a customer, I never had proofs that any of the girls I met were victims. I don't know them. I don't know about their personal life and their relationships with their agencies or boyfriends. Do they have pimps? I have no idea. Are they mistreated? Are they forced? I don't know.

    Obviously, talking of this subject with the girls is a waste of time. They would probably become angry about it.

    There are signs that I see frequently though, that make me question if girls are mistreated. One thing is girls who have names tattooed on them. I heard pimps do this to brand the girls. If that is really the case, then I find it really disgusting. Not only it is degrading for the girls but also a turnoff for the clients.

    Another sign that I see quite often is girls who have scars. They sometimes have small scars on their body. Recently I saw a hot chick with scars on her breast that could have been caused by cigarette burns. Those scars could be caused by violent pimps or clients. Once again, I have no proof of anything.

    Another thing that I find strange is when white, french-speaking Quebec girls work for agencies ran by Arabs and other types of immigrants. Once again, I have no proof that they are mistreated.

    After all, many girls willfully date violent douchebags and take a lot of drugs. But if this is what they want, then they are hardly victims. But I am wondering about how many girls are mistreated or forced to do this job in slavery-like conditions, if this is frequent or not. A lot of people claim that girls are mistreated, but it is hard to tell if they say this just to push an agenda or if they are ignorant. So what is the truth?

  2. #2
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    I think only a SP could answer this question the rest of us could only guess as you have.
    I do not think outside the box, I do not think inside the box, I do not even know where the box is.

  3. #3
    You know this is a good question. I really enjoy talking and getting to know the girls. I have had some heart-to-heart conversations with the girls that I really connected with. We have spilled our guts to each other. I can remember talking with one of John's stars at Eleganza. When I asked "Why did she get started escorting?" She said "I was sick and tired of of living this crappy life with nothing." She went on to explain that she had an entry level job and she didn't have nice things. I said then did John recruit you and she laughed "What recruit me? I answered an add and started the next day." We split a bottle of wine and laughed and She said that she wasn't having fun anymore and so she cut back her hours. we had kept in touch until last year. No one forced her. No one abused her. She needed the money and that was it.

    This is a very similar discussion that I have had with several other Montreal SPs. They do not have very good paying jobs and they want the things that the marketers and fashion designers say that they should have like a Gucci handbag and designer shoes etc. and so they escort. They like sex and so why should they not get paid for it?

    If they want to stop prostitution it seems to me that the PM of Canada could do more by helping the economy along so the girls would have access higher paying jobs. Parents could steer their daughters in the direction of the sciences or engineering fields for example so that the daughters of Canada could learn a skill that someone would pay good money for. These kids fall prey to the mass Marketing that tell them that they need to have a 500$ pair of designer jeans and a 300$ pair of heels and a 700$ handbag. You can't get this by waiting tables.

    From what I have seen, escorting is a good way for these young women to make cash money quickly. It does not require a higher education. You have flexible hours - you work when you want to. You can finally buy nice things and you can afford to travel. Girls change agencies and get fired and rehired or lured away in much the same fashion as we Johns change jobs. They have arguments with the agency owners in the same way that we Johns take issue with upper management in our jobs. I have never suspected that anyone in Montreal was "trafficked" or "forced" into prostitution. Of course that is not what the public will hear from the feminists and non-governmental organizations that are out to save these poor girls from themselves. If they told the truth about prostitution there would be no more grants and donations.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birds View Post
    So what is the truth?
    The truth is whatever a person subjectively believes constitutes exploitation, which is why MacKay's speech to the House of Commons was laden with judgmental words like "victim" and "exploited". He would have you believe they are all exploited victims. Others will tell you that they are 100% exercising free will to make choices that they have made. The truth is somewhere in between, and is a highly subjective assessment in each case. Since you will never know all of the facts in each case, it is a waste of time to try and make sweeping judgments that apply to all, as MacKay has done.

    I am sure there are some Nova Scotia members here that voted for this deuchebag. Are you proud of yourselves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birds View Post
    One thing is girls who have names tattooed on them. I heard pimps do this to brand the girls...
    That doesn't make any sense at all. Why would a pimp incriminate himself by writing his fricking name on his victim? What would even be the point? It's not like they're cowboys herding thousands of identical cows across the prairies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birds View Post
    ...Those scars could be caused by violent pimps or clients.
    Or police brutality or a violent boyfriend or self-inflicted. Once again, I seriously doubt that most abusive pimp would do anything that could attract unwanted attention or incriminate them.

    I'm not trying to be dismissive of the concerns, but I think the situation is much more difficult than Hollywood-style clichés.
    (1) I think most exploitive situations when they exist in sex work are psychological and hard to identify by untrained people.
    (2) If someone is physically abused, it does not mean that it is related to their jobs.

    This is the truth: records of police arrest show that underage or forced labor is a very small fraction of prostitution cases.
    If you have concerns that someone might be abused, I would contact Stella and tell them about it. I would only contact the police directly if I am almost certain there is a crime. A false alarm might backfire and put me or the woman in trouble with the law instead. Thank you Harper!
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  6. #6
    Hungry's comments are a very good observation and indicative of the primary problem that middle class moralistic folk have about this activity.

    First and foremost, there are really few if any abused or trafficked women in the component of the industry that we encounter - the $170 plus per hour Montreal escorts and the $300 plus per hour US escorts. There are street hookers who use drugs and who have shitty lives. Like Hungry, I have gotten to know plenty of escorts in the price range I mentioned. I do not encounter the lower end girls so I cannot say much about them. I suspect they would have even shittier lives if they did not get $50 from turning tricks, but I do not know or really care. They are not part of my life like the escorts that I see. It pisses me off that these so called experts lump the street hookers in with our escorts.

    That having been said, the exploited/abused propaganda is used not only so that the sociologists / psychologists / and other fucking ologists can get their grant money, but also because plenty of people simply do not like the fact that a nice looking young lady in her late teens and 20s can earn damn near an executive level salary from fucking older guys. If one of our favorite hookers has a tattoo with a guy's name, it is not the name of her pimp for Christ sake, it is an ex-boyfriend who she thought she was going to be with forever when she was going through a phase.

    Remember high school and remember how the top 10 percent protected their turf. Most people do not ever get over that high school cliquish mindset.

    Women who do not work as hookers resent the money that hookers can make. And it gets worse when those women get older and contemplate the fact that hookers can make a lot more than their college-aged daughters earn working shitty jobs at stores and restaurants.

    Most middle aged guys who do not see escorts have pretty shitty sex lives compared to those that do. These "good people of the world" do not like the thought of older guys having sex with hot, younger women.

    A lot of this increased interest in placing legal restrictions on our activity comes from this resentment. The internet and the media is a double-edged sword. It allows us to better select escorts and it draws female talent into this line of work. But masses of people who do not like this one bit also see what is going on.

    Not long ago the Today show featured a segment on college girls paying their tuition by being Sugar Babies. Predictably Anne Curry was outraged and declared that "These are our children". But a lot of middle class viewers saw this and viewed prostitution in a new light. Instead of envisioning a loser guy picking up a nasty-looking overweight middle aged woman off the street corner, they got to see a guy who earns a nice living having sex with a smart college girl who is doing a wonderful job of managing her finances - paying her tuition and getting to enjoy her Gucci handbag.

    And guess what? That really pissed off those middle class viewers. In the high school clique mentality, that guy is not supposed to get that good of pussy and that promiscuous college girl is not supposed to make that kind of money. They cannot say if like that without being petty, so they invent the trafficked and abused girl as a mascot to further their agenda.

    She does not exist, but they do not give a shit. They want to limit this activity regardless of whether that mascot is real.

    We are in the minority and that must be remembered. That is why the best approach is to try to keep this activity quiet and below the radar. The Bedford case should never have been brought, but that is 20/20 hindsight. The key in the future will be learning how to purchase sex in Montreal without having to worry about law enforcement. I think that will likely be easier than people think since Montreal is tolerant, it already has a strong outcall system (which is the hardest for law enforcement to approach), and some of the biggest sex markets are in countries where the activity is illegal.

    But we need to stop rubbing it in the noses of the "good people of the world". They do not like it one bit.

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    I agree this business should remain discreet, because sex is after all a private matter. But that is no reason to let ourselves be stigmatized and pushed into clandestinity by these control freaks. They had to accept black people, they had to accept other religions, they had to accept homosexuals, now they have to accept us. From what I hear from the general population, most people don't mind about escorts (at least around here), so long as it's between consenting adults. Prohibitionist have to keep repeating lies, and every time their lies get more ridiculous and less and less people believe them.

    By the way, almost all grant-funded scientific research support decriminalization. As far as I know there's not one peer-reviewed research that says anything positive about the Swedish model. On the other hand prohibitionists use bogus ''studies'' with no sound scientific methodologies. The SCC rejected some of the ''expert'' witness of the crown because they were full of shit. Harper doesn't listen to the truth, but at least the supreme court does. It might take a few more years but it will be decriminalized soon enough.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

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    I have yet to meet an SP who was forced to do what she was doing. I have met SP's who were: a graduate student at an Ivy League scool; a medical student who was accepted to a combined pre-med / med program, many undergrads, and plenty of girls who never set a foot in a college or university. But most had an idea of how long they want to last in the business. Some did not, but none ever expressed fear of their agency or quitting if they had to.

    Most escorts from agencies go from one agency to another.

    I have run into one or two girls who i thought may have had a drug problem. In both cases, i did not engage. I think a woman can be exploited through drugs and a nasty pimp, but I have not seen that situation from a well known and respected Montreal agency,
    So when will Hillary go to Prison?

    Only the Democrats would have a potential CONVICT as their Top Presidential Candidate. Simply Pathetic

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Siocnarf View Post
    I agree this business should remain discreet, because sex is after all a private matter. But that is no reason to let ourselves be pushed in the shadows by these control freaks. They had to accept black people, they had to accept other religions, they had to accept homosexuals, now they have to accept us. From what I hear from the general population, most people don't mind about escorts, so long as it's between consenting adults. Prohibitionist have to keep repeating lies, and every time they do, their lies get more ridiculous and less and less people believe them.

    By the way, almost all grant-funded scientific research support decriminalization. As far as I know there's not one peer-reviewed research that says anything positive about the Swedish model. On the other hand prohibitionists use bogus ''studies'' with no sound scientific methodologies.
    I wish I shared your optimism. Maybe it is a Canadian trait.

    Those black folks can play some ball and their best comedians are a hell of a lot funnier than white people.

    Those homosexuals are pretty creative and bring the world lot of fine arts and great lesbian fucking.

    Other religions are fun to have around because the other ones have a lot of beliefs that are actually more fucked up than the observer's own religion.

    But very few people benefit from prostitution. Most younger guys have little money and prefer a system in which time, opportunity and attention to pretty girls gets him some trim. Most younger guys do not like a system in which a lot of his female prospects sell if to the highest financial bidder. Sure he will benefit from prostitution on a few lonely days of his young life and benefit much more later on, but he thinks in the short-term. Most older married guys do not buy any pussy. It is just info worth the potential nuclear war if a wife finds out, he does not really have enough money since the family takes every dime, and it is hard enough to get an erection with his wife now. If will be impossible if he has to compare her to his favorite escorts.

    For women the statistics are even worse. Relatively few attractive young women really like sex well enough to be a successful prostitute and earn a lot of money. Most women have hang-ups and are just not that sexual and free spirited. Most relatively older women are shut out of this opportunity because the typical North American diet just puts too many pounds on them for them to be attractive any more.

    I respect the studies you reference but they come from intellectuals and most voters are just not educated enough to examine an issue and extend freedom to others just because it is right to do so. Montreal has more people willing to do this because it is essentially a European city. But most of Canada is the 51st state. Petty, small-minded people who analyze an issue from a small-mind viewpoint and vote in their own interests. Successful hookers and their johns will always be in the minority and Harper/Mackay, who are more popular in rural areas than in places like Montreal, know this and use it to their advantage.

    Most freedoms come from figuring out how to do something without getting caught by the police, which makes publicity the enemy since the police will ignore victimless crimes that no one is waking up the whole neighborhood about.

    The other route to freedom is the a Supreme Court, but that is a long, unpredictable and tortuous route, so I find avoiding the police to be preferable. But it does often work. Abortion would certainly never have been legalized throughout the US if if were not for the Supreme Court.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patron View Post
    But very few people benefit from prostitution.
    People said the same thing of black people, homosexual, Rock&Roll, etc. before they were accepted. In fact, most people are fascinated by prostitutes and you certainly have tons of them portrayed in books and films. Not always realistically but often in interesting and entertaining ways. It's a very popular fantasy, even for those who are not interested in it for real. Married couples role-play the client/hooker scenario (just as we have escorts role-playing as the GF ).

    It's true most people can't tell the difference between a real study and some junk science. But a lot of journalists and editorialists, at least here, show good critical thinking. Scientific facts always remain true once they are discovered, but lies have to be repeated and reinforced constantly and eventually they break down. The new law is getting a lot of flak and most citizens do not buy the government's arguments. I think prohibitionists are digging their own grave with this law.

    The more people see sex workers protesting for their rights, the less they will believe the lies. That's why it's good that they don't try to hide anymore.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  11. #11
    I hope you are correct, but I retain my pessimism regarding the voting public. Even if they have to concede that the abused / trafficked woman is largely an urban legend, they can still come up with harms to justify limiting the right of two people to engage in a commercial sex transaction. They will go so far as to argue that if a young woman is able to earn a substantial living from sex work in her teens and 20s that she will not be as motivated as she otherwise would be to pursue an education and career that will carry her through her 40s, 50s and 60s. They will argue that the money that men spend on this activity would better serve society if it were spent on a family (and argue that the lifelong bachelor is more likely to settle down with whatever he can get if sex workers are not available).

    Those arguments irritate me, but I use them as examples of what the opposition will come up with. I simply do not think there will ever be a political solution since I believe that most people will come to the conclusion that decriminalized prostitution will cause them more personal harm than benefit.

    Most people will ignore prostitution if it is not shoved in their face. I still wish Ms. Bedford had simply been willing to rent a commercial space to spank men, rather than insisting that she had a right to do so in her residential home.

    Perhaps the SCC will simply say This Is Decriminalized and if you do not like it then Fuck You regarding prostitution. But they did not do so the first time, instead opting to let a political solution be found. So I am not that confident that the SCC will have the balls to do it this time.

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    They can come up with any kind of justifications, these still have to be compared with the harm the laws has on the prostitutes. That is the first concern of the court.

    Now it's even worse then before: not only are prostitutes doing something legal by selling, they are also considered victims. You have a law that puts dangerous restriction on a legal seller, but that also puts a ''victim'' at higher risk of violence. I don't think there is anything that could justify that in the eye of the court. Even supposing we had great exit programs, it would take a long time to ''rescue'' everyone and meanwhile they would suffer unacceptable harm.

    It's like if they had a law that they hoped might reduce rapes, but would make it more dangerous for victims of rape when it does happen. There's no way they can defend that.

    The SCC cannot tell the government what to do. They can only rule if the law is legal or not. However, during the Ontario Appeal court (before SCC), judge Himel said that new laws were not needed. Right now, public opinion is very negative toward the new law. When this one get struck down after another expensive legal battle, if the next government does the same thing again it would be political suicide. They will have no choice but to accept decriminalization.
    “Truth, Justice, Freedom, Reasonably Priced Love.”

  13. #13
    I agree with Patron that the abolitionists don't like:
    1) Older men having access to sex with young women
    2) Older men not being interested in women their own age
    3) Young women who earn more money than they do through prostitution

    I can't stand people who approve of government control of anyone's personal life, but they aren't entirely wrong in disapproving of prostitution.

    I am not at all attracted to women my own age due to easy access to escorts. I wish I had the money I have spent on escorts during the last ten years. I have had many wonderful experiences, but have regrets at ever having started.

    I have met some very intelligent escorts who I believe could established lucrative careers had they remained in school rather than turned to escorting for the lifestyle.

    The enactment of legislation may restrict my choices and otherwise make "hobbying" more difficult, but will not stop me. Over the years, a couple of my female employees and even women I just met (who would be outraged by being called prostitutes, despite the definition of the word) have offered me sponsorship arrangements.

  14. #14
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    I thought I'd weigh in on this topic and give my opinion. Over the years I have had conversations with SP's as to why they are in this business and what prompted them to start. I have also posed the question about pimps, here are a compilation of the answers given to me over the years. It should be noted that I lived with a former SP for 6 years so had the opportunity to have a lot of my questions answered by her as well.

    For the most part it is money and and easy way to earn with little effort on the girls part. As one said to me, I'm probably going to end up fucking somebody today so why not get paid for it. Some of the girls told me quite openly that it was a way for them to pay for the drugs that were costing a fortune and in the case of one girl she told me she had stolen from family, friends, boyfriend and co-workers to pay for an expensive drug habit and that by turning tricks she was able to fund the habit. Sad but true. For the most part the girls I meet are working for agencies and yes the agency is their pimp. The agencies pay protection to the street gangs who then leave their girls alone. In the case of a girl working for a pimp, he takes care of her, gives her the drugs she wants, feed her houses her and she works for him. Not a perfect situation but for the most part they are not held prisoner and are free to leave when they choose. In the end we all work for someone and for those who work for a large corporation, who then is the pimp in your life. These girls don't have an easy time but as one girl at an agency told me, she is free to refuse any client who knocks on her door, the owner of of the agency is in agreement that the girls should NOT have to service a client they are not comfortable with, Old or Young ! I did have an escort tell me that even though her boyfriend knew what she was doing it eventually caused the breakup of their relationship, the reason, the job affected her libido. After spending a day servicing clients for $$$ when she came home the last thing she wanted was to have sex with him. As a result he got less and less even though she was having plenty, eventually he went elsewhere for his needs causing the breakup. I think the women who work independently and see a couple of clients a couple of days a week have a much better chance of maintaining their sanity and surviving the business.
    " You actually get to choose your friends, family.........well..."

  15. #15
    I found this striking: Every single one of the escorts who discussed her family situation with me said that her father had left before she became an adult.

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