If an agency gets busted...

[Lunaseraphim]

Is that what drove your answers?

Honestly it is not my message, my message is sharing facts that are new and important. The Sherbrooke thred has 6 pages on this topics and Montrealers are not even aware....!

What people do in reaction is their call I have no advice for anyone. But I can tell you that I don't think it will be bad for business for you because you are an established professional so guys will actually feel safer going to you and other Indies with reputation rather han going to Leolist or such places..... At for a few years...

How this evolves long term is up in the air, the next governement might feel that this course of action is not ideal. If you read on the topic, you can see that Ontario and BC are not following suit with Quebec province because they chose other priorities. Also historically this approach has been tried and abandonned in different parts of the country. Or it could accelerate in the next 3 years and actions and perceptions could shift towards driving all of this industry further underground which I think will be a terrible net outcome. I think they need to spend their time catching the real criminels of this industry instead of all the clients they can...

My own approach is to keep to people I know and keep it occasional and stress free.

No, this isn't what drove my answers.. what drove my answers is my personal experience : I've never heard anybody tell me they were arrested, and I've never heard a story about a client being caught in such an operation aside from the one mentioned above. Does this mean it doesn't exist? Nope. But it's not an issue in Montreal at the moment, from what I know. Because we would all be very alarmed if it was.

I'm not personally worried about my business but I think instead of scaring people it's better to give them tools to avoid situations like these. What I find annoying about these conversations is that people seem to forget they have a voice as a citizen, but from what I've noticed, unfortunately, a lot of clients seem uninterested in the political aspects of this.

If sex work was decriminalized, and if clients in general became more interested in listening to us when it comes to which platforms we want to be followed on and where we prefer to advertise, we would probably have far more choices, and clients wouldn't fear getting arrested. There would be far less exploitation as well.

But whenever I have brought up decriminalization on this forum, a lot of users said they would prefer sex work to be legalized, when in fact it's well known that full legalization is harmful for a lot of people in this industry. Or they weren't interested in reading about it at all because "it's too political"...

Aside from that, notice how many people continue using websites like leolist to find "hidden gems" despite the fact that it's full of scams, bait and switch, pimped girls, etc. and perhaps undercover police officers. I know everyone has to start somewhere and there are genuine indy escorts who post on these websites because they don't have other resources, that was me when I started.. but I had to learn how to prove that I'm legit to clients.

 

[hobbyvil]

Where I agree with you 100% is the importance of being aware of the directions things are taking and how to exercises our power as voters.

When two consenting adults can’t enjoy sexuality for whatever reason they decided was fitting their choice of free will because of a handful of bureaucrats and politiciens getting involved and trying to criminalize either of them something is wrong…..

 

[Smitty Jaeger-Manjenson]

But whenever I have brought up decriminalization on this forum, a lot of users said they would prefer sex work to be legalized, when in fact it's well known that full legalization is harmful for a lot of people in this industry. Or they weren't interested in reading about it at all because "it's too political"...

I tend to favor decriminalization over full legalization precisely because if something is fully legalized, the state gets its claws in irrevocably. Because it wants its tax money (officially). This debate was flaring in the old country many years ago and one of the main arguments against legalizing prostitution was "if they can't find work, the state would have to pay them unemployment benefits like for any other worker" (and said state is strapped for cash at the best of times, we don't have a massive welfare state that can afford super-generous social programs). So it's not my intention to get too political up in here, but there exists primarily financial arguments both for and against legalization. I lean towards the decriminalization route instead and can understand your rationale for feeling the same way.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

I tend to favor decriminalization over full legalization precisely because if something is fully legalized, the state gets its claws in irrevocably. Because it wants its tax money (officially). This debate was flaring in the old country many years ago and one of the main arguments against legalizing prostitution was "if they can't find work, the state would have to pay them unemployment benefits like for any other worker" (and said state is strapped for cash at the best of times, we don't have a massive welfare state that can afford super-generous social programs). So it's not my intention to get too political up in here, but there exists primarily financial arguments both for and against legalization. I lean towards the decriminalization route instead and can understand your rationale for feeling the same way.

If it was legalized, options for clients would be more limited, and many of us wouldn't be able to practice legally.

In Nevada there are more arrests related to prostitution than anywhere else in the United States. Precisely because the government wants control over what happens. You can't work independently as an escort there, either.

Not everyone can work for a legal brothel. A lot of people don't want it to be official to the government that they do sex work, too. Of course there's the idea that workers could unionize but that's only if they're willing to be escorts on paper and if they can go through the process of being hired at one of these places.. or if they're allowed to, to begin with.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

Where I agree with you 100% is the importance of being aware of the directions things are taking and how to exercises our power as voters.

When two consenting adults can’t enjoy sexuality for whatever reason they decided was fitting their choice of free will because of a handful of bureaucrats and politiciens getting involved and trying to criminalize either of them something is wrong…..

Yeah. It's mostly conservative groups who try to get clients criminalized. Even a lot of organizations that were initially against the decriminalization of sex work are changing their minds because they're seeing that it doesn't work, and many people are working behind the scenes to educate advocates for various causes.

A lot of politicians are just not interested in this subject immediately and they think it's like opening a can of worms. In Quebec there's a lot of misinformation about this industry and many people are not properly informed and push the narrative that most workers began when they were literally kids, lots of misconceptions about clients in general as well..

When in fact decriminalization would actually change the mentality around this and clients & employers who aren't respectful would be held accountable. If we had more legit platforms to advertise it would also be a lot easier for clients to avoid certain traps.

 

[Smitty Jaeger-Manjenson]

Yeah. It's mostly conservative groups who try to get clients criminalized. Even a lot of organizations that were initially against the decriminalization of sex work are changing their minds because they're seeing that it doesn't work, and many people are working behind the scenes to educate advocates for various causes.

A lot of politicians are just not interested in this subject immediately and they think it's like opening a can of worms. In Quebec there's a lot of misinformation about this industry and many people are not properly informed and push the narrative that most workers began when they were literally kids, lots of misconceptions about clients in general as well..

When in fact decriminalization would actually change the mentality around this and clients & employers who aren't respectful would be held accountable. If we had more legit platforms to advertise it would also be a lot easier for clients to avoid certain traps.

From my observations, the more old-school conservatives want the working girls themselves criminalized, because they see them as sinful and destroying society’s morality by leading men into temptation to commit adultery (the stereotype that johns are largely married men being unfaithful is somewhat common). The small-government conservatives who lean towards libertarianism will oppose such an approach, arguing "look, pornography's been legalized decades ago, you no longer need to buy it in a back alley from a guy working for the mob, keeping prostitution illegal is both hypocritical in that context and ignoring the fact that you will never be able to make it go away via legislation" (similar to how they may not be in favor of drug use but realize that the "war on drugs" has been a massive failure).

Conversely, the ones wishing to see clients criminalized instead are the left-wing, "progressive" types. Who might have a vested interest to oppose heterosexual sex to begin with, it takes all kinds.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

From my observations, the more old-school conservatives want the working girls themselves criminalized, because they see them as sinful and destroying society’s morality by leading men into temptation to commit adultery (the stereotype that johns are largely married men being unfaithful is somewhat common). The small-government conservatives who lean towards libertarianism will oppose such an approach, arguing "look, pornography's been legalized decades ago, you no longer need to buy it in a back alley from a guy working for the mob, keeping prostitution illegal is both hypocritical in that context and ignoring the fact that you will never be able to make it go away via legislation" (similar to how they may not be in favor of drug use but realize that the "war on drugs" has been a massive failure).

Conversely, the ones wishing to see clients criminalized instead are the left-wing, "progressive" types. Who might have a vested interest to oppose heterosexual sex to begin with, it takes all kinds.

I don't know if progressive types want clients criminalized, generally... I've met a lot of people who aren't in the industry and are for decriminalization. but I do think that some people on both conservative and progressive sides are not well informed about the industry at all. It's really unfortunate.

 

[hobbyvil]

well it was a progressive government (liberals under Trudeau) that passed the law that criminalized the clients.... so I would agree Smitty....

 

[MtlGuyNow]

So? You think not one of us is paying taxes?

I’m a realist. I would never under any circumstances suggest either ALL or NONE for anything or anyone.
Even lawyers do “1/2 Cash” for clients’ personal (non deductible) legal payments. “Some” people have cash they probably shouldn’t have and didn’t pay taxes on.
Have even seen this on significant home purchases between a buyer and a seller. The lawyers discretely leave the room as they can’t be a party to that since they’re “officers of the court.”
There are Parking Garages in NYC, where the City charges an 18% tax, that only accept cash. A smart administration would use CCTV or a person with a clicker counting cars going in and out.
Income taxes (federal & local) in NYC & Montreal are about 35% on a USD$100,000 net income or salary.
I don’t work for the IRS or care that much when working people do it to survive.
I have an issue with people earning $100M paying ~6% because they borrow against their assets and paying accountants millions. While it’s a lot of money Bezos pays about 4.5%.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

well it was a progressive government (liberals under Trudeau) that passed the law that criminalized the clients.... so I would agree Smitty....

Yeah but that government wasn't truly progressive.. or at least not about everything. There's a lot of hypocrisy there

 

[DetectiveDavidMills]

well it was a progressive government (liberals under Trudeau) that passed the law that criminalized the clients.... so I would agree Smitty....

No, no, it was Harper, not Trudeau

 

[Giselle Montreal]

I have an issue with people earning $100M paying ~6% because they borrow against their assets and paying accountants millions. While it’s a lot of money Bezos pays about 4.5%.

Yes, I agree. They need to pay a fairer share.

 

[2fast2slow]

No, no, it was Harper, not Trudeau

Harper passed the law because the supreme court "ordered" the government to change sex laws based on a case of a dominatrix out of Toronto. The Harper government was given a "hot potato" by the courts, and they chose the new laws that they chose (the so called "nordic mode" was in vogue at the time).

I have often wondered what the Turdeau liberals would have done if they were given the "hot potato". I give him credit for legalizing cannabis, but not so sure what he would of done with prostitution.

 

[Smitty Jaeger-Manjenson]

To an extent, I get it, the prosecution of johns is built into the law so law enforcement has a recourse against PDF files who rent underage girls and the pimps who facilitate this. But that's shoddy legislation, they should explicitly codify the exploitation of minors as the offense that is grounds for prosecution, instead of the "one size fits all" approach which also leaves itself open to legal challenges. It's not fucking rocket appliances, Julian. My parents still disapprove of me not passing the bar.

 

[Lunaseraphim]

No, no, it was Harper, not Trudeau

I didn't check but I was wondering...

 

[Rebaynia]

The side I tend to think of is, while legalization hurts the providers, clients would see a dramatic drop in who is accessible to them. And others would be at heavy risk to even offer services. (It would take just 1 bad apple to be upset he was denied, and your favorite underground girl disappears) because you like something outside of the 18-25 cis-woman model style girl, because they now control who you get to have access to. Tastes and desires are varried many like other types of providers.
Your preference now become government data to track and follow as it becomes recorded.

Or Decriminalization, where it gets clients out from the criminal side of things, they still get to maintain their anonymity, and they could report scammers, who fraud them, and clean out the danger in their selection pools. Also makeing it possible for people on either side to report trafficking if they came across it.
I want to see change. I might as well bring the other side people won't say because there is then the backlash of those very same bad players who would retaliate because their access to victims became restricted.

Often just knowing there is the possibility of report, can reduce offenses, even if it isn't reported, because who really wants to deal with the headache of having law enforcement into your personal business.

All other forms still leave room for the underground to victimize providers, and villainize either side of the transaction, from being able to reduce the number of victims.

Cheaters will cheat no matter what. It takes dedication to pay for it, and no manipulation or coercion was done. If it isn't available for payment they will find someone who then has expectations for some relationship from them, interfering with their current relationship. A cheater won't just go without. Either they will find someone else to satisfy their desires, or it then could become their partners problem whether they want it or not.
If their paying for it, to fill their desires by providers who are available and happy to accommodate, there are less people feeling victimized by a system that closed every option available to reduce victims in the sex industry, that as long as men/people have the capacity get horney, will continue to exhist. It's not a patriarchy system that creats the demand for SWers, it's basic human nature that does.


That's my 2 cents worth.

No form is without victims and things can always go wrong. But, decriminalization is the only one that can minimize victims within the industry.