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daydreamer41

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Rumple,

I might be the exception. Since the beginning I'm against that strike. It's silly to believe that everybody can or should go to the university. In the academic domain if you want to reach the top you have to be better than the other. There's no utopian or silly egalitarian principle here. The survival of the wisest....

Let the universities be free, okay, but in return select the ones with the best aptitudes.


Reading this, one would think that you believe that having the money to attend university should be based on economic considerations rather than intellectual capability.


If you believe that universities should be free, then you support the primary objective of the strikers, no?

This sounds like a conversation between 2 party members from the old Soviet Union. That's exactly what they did in the Soviet Union. You took a test, and they determined what you would be based on the test results.

Gee, look how successful that country was in its education system. They had Nuclear missiles. but their people waited in line for hours for the most basic services and food.

Tuition shouldn't be free. Nor should it be exorbitant like in the US, because of pampered professors who teach 1 course a semester. It's time to let the free market determine tuition. Students in the US will start competing for community colleges and going to the cheaper colleges. And they will only go if a college education has a payoff. Sociology and gender studies will be majors of the past. Liberal Arts which do not include the Sciences or Math, will be a failed experiment.
 

514virginguy

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All this blaming the students is ridiculous! All this talk about Charest's handling of the situation is just as silly.

Did anyone stop to think maybe, juuuuuust MAYBE there would be no "situation" if tuition wasn't hiked? Want to make the protest go away, eliminate tuition all together and I'm willing to bet all the strikes, protest and anarchy would stop immediately.

According to the Canadian Federal Budget, Canada spends hundreds of millions of dollars on missiles and fighter jets and you're telling me the country cannot afford universal post-secondary education? I refuse to accept that.


Yes, someone has to pay the bill. But this notion that it's all coming from one group of people is baffling and a gross exaggeration to say the least. The belief that only those who work (pay income taxes) should be entitled to how the public's money is spent is utterly idiotic. Are you trying to tell me the government only uses income taxes to fund its expenditures? Well that's news to me! Remember, in Canada they are provincial sales tax (except Alberta) and HST too. People pay in many different ways.

How do you know your tax dollars are going towards subsidizing the students tuition? For all you know, all of the taxes you ever paid in your lifetime went to buying jets and building prisons.

How do you even know what EXACT government department your taxes go to?....yeaaah exactly.

Guess what, students pay taxes too! Every time they buy those "cases of beer," "expensive coffee" "expensive phones" they pay money into the Quebec Treasury and the Federal Treasury in the forms of provincial and federal sales TAX. The "taxpayers" money is JUST as much their money as it is yours! Guess what, their parents also pay! Guess what, their grandparents also paid! Their parents voices and grandparents voices are JUST as equal as yours and if they want the money to go towards the government providing free tuition, they have a right to advocate for it.
 

Doc Holliday

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They should lock up all of those lazy cheap students & ship them to Afghanistan for a good taste of reality. It bugs me that we have people over there putting their lives on the line while these bunch of whiners (not just students, but the adults who are also marching with them for every cause they can think of) who don't realize how great they've got it made in this great country. Enough with the nonsense!
 

Doc Holliday

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Ultimately though it will be up to the people of Quebec to decide that question and the other issues that have arisen in the wake of the protests. I think the only way to truly resolve this dispute (at least for now) is with a provincial election and the sooner that happens, the better.

The funny thing is that only 20-30% of those same students voted during the last election, and most experts agree that this number wouldn't rise much if another election would be called.
 

daydreamer41

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They should lock up all of those lazy cheap students & ship them to Afghanistan for a good taste of reality. It bugs me that we have people over there putting their lives on the line while these bunch of whiners (not just students, but the adults who are also marching with them for every cause they can think of) who don't realize how great they've got it made in this great country. Enough with the nonsense!

Absolutely. Ship those students off to the war zone. Ship those old hippies reminiscing about their war protesting glory days off also! Returning soldiers deserve FREE tuition. Freeloaders do not.

Likewise. Why though? Why are they putting their lives on the line? Was it really worth it? 2014 can't come soon enough.

514virginguy, what happens in 2014?

Also, are you really a virgin, as your name implies? I find it hard to believe since you are posting on an Escort board. Or are you trying to be funny by choosing that name?
 

rumpleforeskiin

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Well, I wish that I could continue this discussion, but I'm off to Germany for awhile where my mind will definitely be on other things.
Have a ball, Louis. Give my love to Daria at World if you see her. You could give her something else for yourself as well, if you choose. It could be the start of a beautiful friendship. And don't miss Aida at Mainhatten should you go there.

Rumples, I accept your reassurances about the relative calm that prevails throughout most of the city. However, you and I still disagree strongly about the reasonableness of the students' demands.
Actually, Louis, I really don't have a fully formed opinion so I wouldn't say that we disagree. I don't think I know enough about the dynamics of the situation to judge it being a) Anglophone and b) from outside. There really is a huge split here. The French population seems to be behind the movement nearly 100%, the English population seems to be against it, maybe 85%. Overall, given the French majority, I'd say the people, by and large, support the students, especially since the passage of bill 78.

What I don't get is the uproar over tuition which is ungodly low. I know the rational is there, but it don't follow it. Why are these students risking their future over $350 a year? It just has to be about more than that. My friend here, all of whom are well educated people, many of them still in graduate school (i.e. not personally affected) and quite a few who are faculty support them. (BTW, most of my friends are Canadian citizens, though not Canadian by birth. Iranian, Polish, Russian, Indian.)

An interesting parade last night, probably illegal. About 9 pm, while I was dining on St. Denis in the Plateau, several thousand students marched by banging pots and pans. While the demonstration was illegal, they had a police escort. It's my sense that, despite Bill 78, the police are doing their best to keep the peace and not throw gasoline on the fire. And as the demonstration marched by, the crowd on the sidewalk cheered them on. It is, Louis, quite the popular uprising.
 

rumpleforeskiin

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They should lock up all of those lazy cheap students & ship them to Afghanistan for a good taste of reality. It bugs me that we have people over there putting their lives on the line while these bunch of whiners (not just students, but the adults who are also marching with them for every cause they can think of) who don't realize how great they've got it made in this great country. Enough with the nonsense!
You know, Doc, a knee-jerk right wing reaction is not at all typical of you. Why are these kids risking their future over something they strongly believe in? Is it really over a lousy 300$ a year? Why don't you give this piece from today's Gazette a careful read:
DONNA NEBENZAHL said:
MONTREAL - The urge to protest against university tuition hikes might seem foolhardy when students face the possible loss of a school semester, the sacrifice of time spent marching whatever the weather, not to mention the danger of confronting helmeted police, and the increasingly likely possibility of injury and arrest.

Yet they continue to do so, as worried parents fret, pundits fume and the government of Quebec Premier Jean Charest remains set squarely against them.

So why are the students so determined to keep this protest alive?

First of all, they're highly motivated even if their actions make them uncomfortable, says social psychologist Benjamin Giguere. His research paper on the 2005 Quebec student strike that routed the Charest government's plan to cut $103 million in bursaries examined the determinants of collective action.

"The average person protesting isn't typically someone who is causing social disorder," said Giguere. "And even if it's a bit scary when there are others breaking things, they go back, to walk in the rain."

They do this, paradoxically, because they care enough to make sacrifices in the hope of helping the group, and because this movement has offered something many students have discovered over the passing weeks - a sense of shared identity and shared grievance.

This is the winning combination, according to Giguere, who has recently completed a postdoctoral fellowship at McGill University and is heading to the University of Guelph this fall. "They may individually have other types of struggles," he said, "but it is the culmination of perceived shared grievances that leads to collective action."

This sharing has put students on the streets for weeks - 14 and counting. "It's a lot of effort, to come out every night, for many days in a row, making this happen," he said. "And even if we see the students questioning themselves, and some of them show signs of lack of self-control, they're still coming out. There has to be motivation; it's not just an impulse. They feel a bond, a reason to connect."

Young people have always been crucial participants in protest movements, says Francis Fox Piven, a political sociologist at the Graduate Centre, City University of New York, who in 2006 published Challenging Authority: How Ordinary People Change America. "First, they're energetic and stronger, needed qualities in a protest," she said. "They're also more hopeful and enthusiastic; they still believe that the world can be a better place."

Student protest also raises another dimension, she says, one that we might have underestimated: We believe as a society that education is the way to get ahead and improve our social status, but while most students want to be educated and therefore have a good life, universities are becoming less and less accessible.

In Canada the cost of education is much less than in the U.S., where university is only accessible, Piven says, "on the condition that students accept onerous levels of indebtedness." But even here, according to the Canadian Federation of Students - representing more than one-half million students from more than 80 universities and colleges across the country - student debt now totals more than $14.5 billion, with the level of Quebec student debt among the lowest at $13,300 per student. That's right alongside Newfoundland and Labrador, where there have been minimal tuition increases since 1999 and where, in 2007, student debt fell after the province implemented a needs-based grant program.

"We are in a situation where it has never been more expensive to get a post-secondary education, or more of a requirement," said Roxanne Dubois, national chairperson of the CFS, "which is why despite the fact that tuition fees are going up, students realize they need that piece of paper to make a decent living in Canada."

But rather than investing in post-secondary education, "governments want us to pay," she says, echoing the sentiment of many students marching in Quebec today.

A lot can happen on a university campus, a fertile ground for ideas, says Bruce Hicks, political science professor at Concordia University. "It's about ideology, and a youthful desire to change the world.

"Youth very much believe that ideas are powerful," he said. "In Quebec, an ideological debate is taking place in which government and students are on different sides."

While an average person might look at the protest about tuition increases and get a limited message on a visceral level - one that is often tainted by reports of violence - the students see education as a right, an investment in the future of society, he says. "Quebec students aren't looking at the American model of education, which can be had on borrowed money. They're looking at the European model, like Scandinavia, where not only is tuition free but you get money for books and ancillary costs."

The other aspect that makes Quebec different from the rest of Canada and the U.S., he says, has to do with this province's history of militant unionism that is very much a part of the social fabric.

The sharing of grievances - feeling disadvantaged or short-changed - has led to a growing sense of shared identity, the force that gives student protest its impetus and power as an agent of change, Giguere says. Many of these protesters believe "that their behaviour is going to change something. If as a group they agree with this, then it is real for them and they're motivated."

In the United States, Piven says, development is often described in terms of the role of elites and the effects of institutions, where change happens gradually. "We black out the history of the great movements that have changed history dramatically."

The history of protest movements is rarely cited, she says; even students protesting today are unaware of the impact of protest movements on the pattern of our development.

The student movement of the 1960s, she points out, protested against the exploitation of higher education. "They protested the corporatization of the university. Little did they know how much this trend would accelerate."

The Occupy movement is closely linked with recent student protests, Piven says, because its underlying theme is the rise of extreme inequality, which protesters believe cannot coexist with democracy. "Now it's the neglected notion of free education."

She uses her own university, City University of New York, as a case in point. Founded in 1847 as the City College of New York, "its purpose was to provide free education to the children of working people," Piven says. So the college was free until 1977-78, when New York faced a fiscal crisis.

"The banks had become very influential in the resolution of that crisis and forced union cutbacks and wage cutbacks - and started tuition at CUNY," she said. "What could have justified eliminating that free education, when we were a richer country?"

At CUNY, and across the world, students have increasingly turned out to protest against tuition hikes. Students marched there last week, as they had in November, the same month police pepper sprayed protesters at University of California, Davis. Tuition fee protests have been held from Ontario to the U.K., Chile to New Zealand.

In March 2011, students were part of the more than 250,000-strong march in Central London against spending cuts. They marched again in November, in large part through the efforts of the National Union of Students, a confederation of 600 student unions throughout the U.K. whose main tenets are "Equality, Democracy, Collectivism."

Students, NUS president Liam Burns said recently in The Gazette, "face an unprecedented attack on our future before it even begins."

And while protest movements don't win everything they want, they do win some things, Piven says. "Sit-down strikes got unionization, a protest movement was responsible for the abolition of slavery, the Great Society was the victory of the black freedom movements."

The protest movement against tuition increases with its symbolic red square is now being discussed around the world. Perhaps that red square is a pivotal symbol of these protests, or perhaps it's the new law - Bill 78, which curtails assembly - that has brought criticism of government from new quarters.

Described as excessive by the Canadian Bar Association, it has prompted Louis Masson, president of the Quebec Bar Association, to comment that while we must respect the law, "we must also respect fundamental freedoms, like the freedom to protest peacefully, the freedom of speech and the freedom of association."

Several sections of Bill 78 will likely be struck down, constitutional lawyer Julius Grey told The Gazette on Tuesday. "There's no doubt that this contravenes the charter on all kinds of grounds."

The concern about Bill 78 might actually engender much-needed sympathy for the student cause, because a movement succeeds when it reaches people, says Hicks. He describes this change as an emotional heuristic, something that does not necessarily tap into an idea but the emotion behind it. "Something can happen that will resonate with people, causing them to either switch sides or move farther in the direction in which they're already moving. It's a groundbreaking moment, which isn't about politics or the media."

What students choose to do in the coming weeks and months will flow from their continued bond, their "coming together over perceived shared issues that builds a sense of struggle," as Gigure says.

They are motivated to change, and every action counts, says NUS leader Burns, who wrote in the Huffington Post last year: "Even our smallest choices make a difference, and some of them can end up having a bigger effect than we could possibly have imagined."
Donna Nebenzahl is a freelance journalist who writes regularly for The Gazette, where she has been editor of such departments as Woman News, The Review, Living and Special Sections, and for The Toronto Star, where she contributes stories on workplace issues. Her magazine contributions have appeared in Canadian Geographic, Elle Canada, Reader's Digest, Canadian Home and Country and Country Living U.S. and she is author of the book Womankind, featuring 45 women activists from around the world, published by Raincoast Books. The documentary film that she proposed, researched and wrote, Twice Upon a Garden, won the Audience Award at the 2010 International Festival of Films on Art. She is currently working on several book/documentary projects. She teaches in the Journalism department at Concordia University.
 

daydreamer41

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From article above:
Student protest also raises another dimension, she says, one that we might have underestimated: We believe as a society that education is the way to get ahead and improve our social status, but while most students want to be educated and therefore have a good life, universities are becoming less and less accessible.



This article fails to mention why the price of college/university is increasing so much and thus becoming less and less accessible.

Reason? Pampered professors are being paid more and more, and teaching less and less. The Universities add meaningless positions and layers of bureaucracy. And who are some of these pampered profs? Liberals with meaningless gender study, sociology, and other meaningless curriculum. And the students? They pile into these meaningless curriculum and wonder why they are having a hard time getting work.

The Education scene is a Liberal caused problem and the liberals want the problem solved by asking the rest of society to give more in taxes. Liberalism is a cancer. What's happening with our Education systems is just one of the ugly symptoms.

If the professors were to teach 3 or 4 courses a week, 60 percent could be laid off, and tuition wouldn't have to be raised. Why aren't the student protesting the real reason why tuition is going up? They have been brained washed by their professors with the Liberal mush. The students don't have a clue why tuition is going up.
 

bigwang89

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FYI, in the states, unions can and do make political donations. In fact, they are the single largest political donors. And they too can place independent ads.
 

EagerBeaver

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There has been almost zero analysis in this thread of the economics of the situation, in terms of what the students were being asked to pay in tuition and what they are now being asked to pay. My understanding is that this is undergraduate tuition which is a fraction of what undergrad tuition is at most USA colleges and universities, which in turn is a fraction of what graduate school costs.

My sense is that very few posters in this thread - maybe 2 or 3 - have actually been to graduate school and had to go in debt because of it. My law school's tuition is now $45,000 per year. I took out very large loans to go to law school. I was able to pay them off within 6 years after graduating, but only because I fortuitously achieved a large fee on the settlement of a personal injury case which enabled me to do so.

I have spoken to some recent graduates of my law school who have taken out enormous loans to cover the $135,000 cost of going to law school. They are unable to take on mortgages and probably will be in cheap rentals for many years until they scrape together the money to pay off those loans. I think I had it a bit easier back in the 1990s than they do now. It's going to take them many years to pay off this debt.

The Canadian student undergrads with these tuition increases are taking on what exactly? A few hundred dollars more a year? I have seen no real economic analysis of this issue. What debt will they be taking on? Is it manageable debt? Should we feel more sorry or them than we should for the recent graduates of my law school, who are now $135,000 in the hole, some with no jobs lined up yet, and they cannot afford to take on a mortgage for many years?

Can you guys give me reason why I should feel sorry for these Concordia students?
 
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Techman

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EB, the current increases being proposed would be less than $1 per day. In other words, one less latte a week at Starbucks would cover it. This is the terrible hardship they're looking at which led to all these protests.
 

EagerBeaver

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USELESS quote deleted. No need to quote the post just above yours. Mod 11.

Techman;

Are you fucking kidding me? I know kids that just graduated my law school $135,000 in the hole on loan debt, no job lined up, and payments start next month. Giving up a latte a week at Starbuck's is not exactly going to do it for them.
 
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Techman

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I wish I was kidding you. In fact the last proposal, which was rejected, would have spread out the increase so that it would be around $.50 per day. The students refuse any negotiation that does not include a tuition freeze. The more radical of the students wish a tuition freeze leading to eventual free university education. I'm surprised they aren't also asking for a weekly allowance and to have their living expenses compensated for.
 

daydreamer41

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Good points, Beav. Compared to the US, they have it made.

But I have addressed why tuition has been skyrocketing in my posts. It's simple mathematics and accounting. What the Universities spend has to equal what they take in. Now, many well established Universities, like the Ivy League schools and some of the better schools not in the Ivy League, which have endowment funds equaling some 3rd World Country GDP's, could afford to offer free tuition, but they don't. Princeton has promised not to increase their 37,000 per year tuition for the near term. Many private colleges are nearing $50K a year.

Colleges are so expensive because they are over staffed, and the staff is under worked. When a professor is responsible for teaching 1 or maybe 2 classes a semester and gets $140,000 per year for doing so for 4 hours in class and another 3 hours out of class per week, you have a cost problem.

The best thing young people could do is stop going to college for a few years. You would see tuition come down. At some point, this will happen, especially when they see their older siblings, friends and cousins struggling so much. The system will bubble.
 

Techman

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From CaptRenault's post 94 in the thread. You actually have the nerve to call this "skyrocketing tuition"? Not only do they have it made in comparison to the US, they have it made when compared to any other province in Canada also or pretty much anywhere else in the world.


Plan is to raise tuition by $325 a year over five years. Total
increase will amount to an additional $1,625, raising Quebec tuition to
$3,793 in 2017. Will remain among lowest in Canada.
 

daydreamer41

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Techman, I meant in the US, not Canada. I realize in Canada, taxpayers subsidize the tuition greatly.

In the US, you have State funded Universities which have $20,000 a year Tuition if you are a state resident.

So my reference to skyrocketing was for the US, not Canada. However, I bet you that the amount that the taxpayer in Canada has to pay will increase greatly because of the reasons I mentioned.
 

Techman

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OK, got it. Sorry about that! The thing is that the only thing the students here give a damn about is how much they have to pay and totally ignore the costs to society in general. They don't seem to realize that if they were to get free tuition, they would end up paying for it anyways in the form of increased costs in general for everything else.

Here's an idea...they should start a new scratch ticket lottery. Call it something like TUITION MAX! and offer various prizes like free tuition for life, tuition for a year, etc... Students and parents will spend more money buying tickets every year than they spend on actual tuition today. Then they could freeze the tuition and have plenty of money coming in anyways.
 

Merlot

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Hello all,

I thought some of the emotional short-sighted stereotypes being used before were bad enough, then comes idiotic references to communism, hippies, and silly fantasies about war zones and Afghanistan.

There has been almost zero analysis in this thread of the economics of the situation, in terms of what the students were being asked to pay in tuition and what they are now being asked to pay.

My understanding is that this is undergraduate tuition which is a fraction of what undergrad tuition is at most USA colleges and universities, which in turn is a fraction of what graduate school costs.

My sense is that very few posters in this thread - maybe 2 or 3 - have actually been to graduate school and had to go in debt because of it.

The thread is now a month old. Anyone worried about "zero analysis...of the economic situation" has had a month to offer better.

BTW...I've paid for my own graduate degree, without the huge benefit of a personal injury settlement fee, an incredible bonus that is a-typical of the long suffering educational indebtedness of most Americans. You did take on the original large educational debts knowing such a bonus was likely sometime...multiple times, and before not so long.

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/global-montreal
n outline of tuition fee increases in Quebec from the 1970s to the present day.

1970-1985
Tuition fees: $500

1985
Tuition fees: $500
The Parti Quebecois wanted to increase student tuition fees by $47. The students threatened to strike and the PQ gave up their attempt.

1986
Tuition fees: $500
The Liberals proposed an increase in tuition fees by $47. Students went on strike for two weeks and Premier Robert Bourassa kept the tuition freeze.

1990
Tuition fees: $500
The Liberals proposed an increase of $280 each year over four years. Students protested in Montreal and Rimouski for a month. Bourassa held his position and the increase went through.

1994
Tuition fees: $1668

1996
Tuition fees: $1668
The Parti Quebecois tried to increase tuition fees. After a month of protests, Education Minister Pauline Marois kept the tuition freeze, but imposed a fine on CEGEP students who failed more than five classes.

2005
Tuition fees: $1668
The Liberal government changed $103 million worth of bursaries into student loans. The students protested for eight weeks.

2006-2007
Tuition fees: $1668
The Liberal Minister of Education, Jean-Marc Fournier changed $103 million worth of loans back to bursaries.

2007
Tuition fees: $1668
The Liberals announced a tuition fee increase of $500 over a period of five years. The students responded with a relatively week protest lasting a few weeks and the increase was confirmed.

2012
Tuition fees: $2168
The Liberals proposed a tuition fee increase of $325 each year for five years. Student protests started February 14, 2012 and are ongoing.

2017
Tuition fees: $3793


Techman, while I feel the students (if you leave out the effects of Bill 78) are being excessive, sometimes grossly so, because the overall average cost of education will remain a bargain, a 75% increase in just 5-7 years is nothing to sneer about. The salesman ploy of saying it's just a dollar a day or $5 a day after 5 years does still mean the total cost is nearly doubling after that time.

I also note that both the Liberals and Parti Quebecois increased or tried to increase tuition.

Cheers,

Merlot
 
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